Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Dark Forest
This discussion is being moved here since we are discussing about whether the Dark Forest is an organized group or a bunch or rogues on PCA. I found a cite that might help.-- 21:12, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

imo they're just a bunch of rogues like BloodClan, since we're going to use Spottedleaf as a valid source of information now 19:09, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Beebs here, they were never really "organized," sure they had a leader, but they actually didn't. If memory serves, they had kinda senior members (ie Tigerstar, Brokenstar, Thistleclaw, Mapleshade, etc) and then the "lower" members (ie Antpelt, Snowtuft, etc), and then trainees (ie Ivypool, Blossomfall, Birchfall, Mousewhisker, Breezepelt, etc). They were never really a "Clan" per say, just different seniority levels of a community. 02:40, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Wait, I have an idea. Let's try to see it at a different angle. <>

We are trying to compare them and decide if they are a Clan or a bunch of rogues, but if you think about it, they are neither. They are the opposite of StarClan, so not a Clan, but aren't just a bunch of rogues because their dead. I think we need to see them as something different, not a clan, not a bunch of rogues, but something different. Cause that's what they are. -- 05:07, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

But they are rogues based on our current definition of rogues; " hostile, usually aggressive [...] cats who do not belong to a Clan [...]." And they also follow the "general" rule through most of the series for rogues; "cats who have chosen to live by themselves [...] and scorn the Clan cats for their beliefs." They technically are rogues, but most definitely aren't a Clan, which is defined as "a highly structured society that is firmly divided," in the Warriors universe. They are not highly structured,and aren't firmly divided, either, they are simple roaming an afterlife with a frailly structured society, if you can even call it that, remember until Omen of the Stars none of the cats even met each other, they all roamed alone. I think that the Dark Forest cats should simply stay as rogues, because that's exactly what they are. 14:39, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, Crookedstar's Promise shows otherwise, as Mapleshade brings Crookedstar to Silverhawk (or Shredtail?) who is training Thistleclaw, so theirs an inconsistency. Same with Power of Three, Hawkfrost is always with Tigerstar. Can everyone please read this. I worked hard on it. -- 21:45, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, using Leafstar as an example, she was actually a rogue in Firestar's quest, but still got a Kittypet and loner rank for being called one. The DF Warriors were called DF Warriors God knows how many times, imo they really should get the rank. Spottedleaf's one opinion on them really doesn't outweigh all the times they were called DF cats by the narration and the other StarClan cats likewise. If a rank was based on how they act, then basically the Sun drown place cats should all get loner ranks, and Willowbreeze should get a kittypet rank. 01:59, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

The cite you showed really says that they're rogues so. although they have been called warriors numerous times, word of god says otherwise 02:03 Mon Feb 16

But also, remember a being a "Clan cat" isn't just about ranks. A Clan was a group of cats who followed the warrior code, which is another reason they weren't a clan, imho. 04:37, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

This is just tiring... maybe we can have a vote on this? please? -- 04:41, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Wait a few more days, everybody needs to have an equal chance of discussing this before a CBV period or vote is considered. 04:43, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

StarClan cats - even those who weren't warriors - are called 'StarClan warriors' sometimes, so if we went with Burnt's logic, then they'd all get warrior images, no? 04:44, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

That wasn't my logic, though. The warrior blanks are for clan warriors. The DF warriors aren't Clan cats, they are Dark forest cats. 04:49, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

I guess the question is: What is Dark Forest cats? I think they are not rogues, but not a Clan. Something new and different, like Tribe of Endless Hunting for example, but a group that's for sure. I don't think they're rogues, because their dead spirits like StarClan, but just plain evil.-- 05:20, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

I'm just going to make the leap and say they were a temporary alliance. So the question would more of be whether we honor temporary alliances as their own groups. From my perspective, I would say that we don't honor temporary alliances and, agreeing with Duck, the Dark Forest cats are essentially dead rogues. 20:45, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Agreeing with Duck as well. They're dead rogues, basically. They usually stay apart, like rogues, and certainly act like them....the only difference between them and, say, Willie's group from Ravenpaw's Path..is that the Dark Forest cats are dead. The only reason they even united is because Tigerstar was a jealous kitty who couldn't let dead things die.

I actually found something. Just a prompt, but Jayfeather thought but he's not a rogue or a loner. When he smelled Brokenstar so... 12:07, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

You might want to give more context as well as a page number and book to add credibility to that quote. When and where did Jayfeather smell Brokenstar? Is the ambiguity referring just to Brokenstar or to all of the Dark Forest? Simultaneously though, the Dark Forest cats have been named multiple ranks. 01:38, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

Right, this is overdue Page 241, The Fourth Apprentice, Paperback edition, near start of chapter 20.

"the newcomer's scent was all around him, but Jayfeather didn't recongize it. The tom didn't belong to WindClan, or to any of the other clans. But he's not a rouge or loner, I ought to recongize that scent, but I don't.''"

The Tom was later revealed to be Brokenstar.

This quote is clearly talking about the rank of Brokenstar, and not Brokenstar himself, which we all know, his rank is in the Place of no stars. "The Tom didn't belong to WindClan, Or to any of the other clans" states that Brokenstar is not a clan cat, or a warrior of any sort, "Not a rouge or Loner" states he's not outside of the clans either. So what This quote is basically saying, "Place of no star cats aren't clan cats, not out of relationship with the clans entirely either, not a rouge, or loner of any sort." So even if they do act like rouges (Which I still think they are too organized to be rouges), this quote clearly states, that they aren't just a bunch of rouges, Squirrelflight, Brambleclaw and the ones who went on a journey acted like loners, but they never got the rank because they were stated as clan cats and listed in the allegiances as their own rank within the clan.

So basically like StarClan, they aren't rouges or loners, they aren't clan cats, they have a similar connection of some sort with the clan cats, but yet again, they aren't. Like StarClan, they should get a rank, as this quote clearly states they aren't a rank we know of. In my opinion, they should get their own rank. 02:57, March 29, 2015 (UTC)

That's what I've been trying to say and I agree with you. 00:01, March 31, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Burntclaw, and I think she said it perfectly. They are not rogues or loners, the quote she provided proves that much, and they certainly are not Clan cats. They're like StarClan, warrior ancestors who are related to the Clans, but don't have Clan ranks anymore (except, of course, they're evil). So, like StarClan, they should get their own rank, because they don't really fit any existing rank. But that's just my opinion. 21:46, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, I actually forgot about that part in The Fourth Apprentice- nicely done, Burnt. It's been a very long time since I've read that book, and the quote backs up the theory that they're not just rogues. I'd be up for giving them their own rank now, since I honestly didn't even remember that and it throws the "dead rogue" thing kinda out the window into the trash bin.

It's been 21 days, any comments? 07:53, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

i think the rank should just be 'Dark Forest Cat' - or for abbreviation, 'DF Cat' 20:23, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

I think we can do it similarly to the warrior system. Like for example, senior warriors is listed under warriors, and mentors I think and etc. So Dark Forest trainee is there, I know there is warriors, mayb senior warriors and sorta leaders. I'm willing to go with them all just one rank though, cause some warriors of equal rank can have more respect than the other. 08:50, April 26, 2015 (UTC)

Quick question, would they lose their rouge rank? 11:35, April 26, 2015 (UTC)

Imo, if we're giving them their own rank, they should lose the rogue rank unless they were rogues during their life (Tigerstar, Brokenstar, Mapleshade, etc.) And I think they only need one rank, like the StarClan cats. There are respected cats, former leaders and medicine cats there too. 12:43, April 26, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah that's that was I was thinking. I think their rogue ranks should be removed if we are going to give them their own rank 13:33, April 26, 2015 (UTC)

Longtail
I'm pretty sure everyone's getting tired of this, but the amazing and awesome Jayie has directed me towards some information that could be really useful. We all know the issue surrounding Longtail and his pelt color.. it's often argued whether or not it's silver or brown. Both pelt colors have cites for Rising Storm, with the silver cite coming about 50 pages prior to the brown cite. However, Kate, the author of Rising Storm, says this when asked about Longtail's pelt coloring:


 * I always imagine tabbies as brown; I suspect Cherith imagines them as silver; which is why we see "tabby" in the storyline, we each pick out "normal" tabby. So, according to me, he is brown.

Given that Kate also wrote the book where Longtail is introduced, Into the Wild, and she also wrote the book where both the brown and silver descriptions are, wouldn't Kate's word put the description for Longtail as brown, not silver? Technically, we have two strikes for brown, and one for silver, because we've used an author's word for descriptions before.

I think that since we have more cites for Longtail being brown than we do for him being silver, we should probably go with the brown. But that's just me. Jayie Unwritten words~ 19:45, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

I think the authors are divided on this. I think if the books specifically calls him 'brown' (not just a tabby) more than silver, than go for it.-- 21:28, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the actual books after the Original Arc still call him silver more often, though. 23:51, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

duck you're gonna need more cites for that, though 23:57, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, please bring some cites for that, Duck. Because I've only ever seen him called silver once, and that's in Rising Storm...

Just to say, but in the manga thingy behind Bluestar's prophecy, he was shown as pale. But if he was meant to be a brown tabby then I'd say just change his description. 04:32, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

They're graphic novels, and regardless, we can't tell what color he is, since it's grayscale. Those aren't used to back up/contradict a description, unless they're like Lionblaze or Lionheart, both of whom are cited tabbies and are shown without those stripes.

Can I get comments on this? Duck hasn't brought cites yet to support him being called silver more, so I count 2-1 in favor of brown, honestly.

I looked at both cites for brown and silver, something to note. Both are in Rising Storm:

…Next to Longtail’s silver tabby back. Pg. 268

“Longtail,” he meowed, pausing briefly beside the brown warrior. P.g. 306.

I have an idea actually, what if we put him as both silver and brown? Or even silver-brown. Sorta like this. 07:38, March 10, 2015 (UTC)

or you can use the switch brackenfur has and be done with it. 11:13, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

I think he should be brown if Kate confirmed it and he has a cite, but a switch should do for the art. 00:10, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's confirmed to be Longtail or not, but the cover of the old Rising Storm shows a brown cat with a nicked ear, and a family member of mine suspects it's Longtail, since Longtail received that nicked ear back in Into the Wild. 21:39, March 21, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's Sandstorm, I'm not sure. 00:12, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

It's unconfirmed anyway. I have another idea: If you look at the quotes above for brown and silver, it lists that he has a silver tabby back. Maybe he is brown, but with a silver back underneath the black stripes. I think that works well. 02:47, March 27, 2015 (UTC)

Just add a secondary description and I think it's done tbh 02:59, March 29, 2015 (UTC)

Anymore comments? I think going with the text and Erin's word is the best thing. Erin and the text say he is brown, and the text says he has a silver tabby back. I think we'll change his description to brown and add that he has a silver tabby back and the leave the rest for PCA. Does everyone agree with that? 05:51, April 4, 2015 (UTC)

I doubt he has a silver tabby back... If Kate says he's brown then he's brown, and silver is another completely different description. imho 06:08, April 4, 2015 (UTC)

I don't actually think adding the silver tabby back thing is a good idea- it seems like combining citations. It would be like adding white to a black cat-, especially one that's been made clear to be black. Silver and brown are nothing alike. Having a brown version and a silver version with a toggle would be perfect, imho. All PCA would have to do is color tweak the images and have alts, which is extremely easy.

Is it agreed that Longtail is brown? 00:46, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

I say he is brown, but I'm still a bit leaning with the silver tabby back though.

The silver tabby back thing makes no sense, though. It's combining descriptions that have nothing to do with each other....

how about an image toggle? for silver tabby and brown tabby - we can just keep the silver tabby ones we have now and then we can have brown tabby ones made?? 12:41, April 19, 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. While silver was apparently used first, brown is his official description, judging by what Kate says.

Willowbreeze - kittypet
I think Willowbreeze needs a kittypet rank. It was clear that she lived the life of a kittypet for sometime. If Tallstar got a kittypet rank for staying with the twolegs for a little time, she should too. *shrugs* 09:48, March 8, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you, but let's see what others think. 23:05, March 8, 2015 (UTC)

I think both of them shouldn't be kittypets, I mean, none of them were really kittypets, they were just prisoners and Tallstar only ever got into the house because he needed medical attention. 00:44, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

Tallstar stayed inside the house for a fairly decent period of time, accepted their help, and basically lived there with Jake for a bit. If we gave Jake a loner/rogue image for living the life of a loner and rogue, then what makes Tallstar any different?

I disagree. Willowbreeze did not willingly stay with Twolegs. Qualify how long she "lived the life of a kittypet", because from my understanding, it was maybe a day if not less. 02:06, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

Tallstar did not willingly stay with the twolegs either, the twolegs only ever captured him to cure his bellyache, if he gets his kittypet rank, then Willowbreeze should, since the twoleg's intention there was clearly to capture her and keep her as their house cat. However, I don't think any of them should get their ranks, because they were never kittypets. 02:54, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

Graystripe nevet stayed willingly. He got the KP image because of how long he stayed, I think.

Graystripe was considered their house cat, and he lived the life as a kittypet and was considered one. Tallstar didn't, all he did was to recieve care from a Twoleg and sleep in a kittypet bed, for the whole time, he wanted to escape, and wasn't really considered a kittypet by anyone. It's basically repeating Willowbreeze, she was captured, and lived the life of a kittypet too for a short while. If Tallstar gets his rank, then she should, because the situation she was in fits Tallstar's situation perfectly. I don't think either should get their ranks, because they were never actually kittypets. 03:53, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

do we even know the twolegs intended to make her a kittypet? all they did was put her in a cage. they werent even in a house or anything, and they could have intended to euthanise her for all we know. i cant speak for tllstar because i never read his SE, but for willowbreeze i dont think she should get one.

If Willowbreeze gets one for Twolegs capturing her/caring for her briefly, then Leafpool, Brightheart, Owl Eyes, Pebble Heart, and Sparrow Fur would get them as well, but they were never official kittypets and so should not receive a kittypet rank. 20:32 Mon Mar 9 2015

Official or unofficial, they're treated as kittypets, I think they get it. 06:32, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

how on earth is being stuffed into a cage being treated as a kittypet? 06:37, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Neither Tall or Willow should get it, imho. 07:45, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm... If she doesn't get this rank, I think Tall shouldn't have either, tbh. I agree with burnt. 10:29, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I doubt she'd be considered a kittypet. Like Skt said- stuffed into a cage isn't being a kittypet. Also, she didn't stay there for very long. Idk about Tall, however. 15:27, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Tallstar got it, I believe, because he fits the qualifications for a kittypet- it's not that he is one, it's because he fit it. I think there's a list somewhere (not sure where it is off the top of my head) that determines this.. I'll see if I can find it.

Well then basically Willow should get it- she was living as one too. She ate kittypet food and played with their house folk. I'm sorry, but I still don't think Tall should get it, just because he slept in a kittypet bed one night and got stuck in the house because they wanted to treat his bellyache doesn't mean he should get the rank. 00:07, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Being held captive isn't the same thing as being kittypet, though? She was forced to do those things, and unlike Graystripe, wasn't there for an extended period of time.

Okay, I just checked CP...and she was with them for maybe a day, if that. Sorry, but I really don't think that's long enough to be considered a kittypet.

If Tall gets it, she should, imo. Tall was forced to do those things too, and he still got it. Regardless, I still think none of them should get it. They were never kittypets. 00:33, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Agreeing with Burnt. 00:23, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

Is it agreed or not? 04:54, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Tallstar was treated like a kittypet, he was kept after he recovered from that food poisoning, and the Twoleg definitely planned to keep him longer. Didn't it say in a guide book that RiverClan cats are sometimes taken by Twolegs to become kittypets? That sounds like Willowbreeze's case, it's just she was rescued. 05:29, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Do we know that? We don't know what the twoleg was thinking. Being captured for medical care isn't a kittypet. 06:20, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Agreeing with Burntclaw. We can't just assume the Twolegs wanted them to become kittypets. Neither of them should get the rank. Being captured for a day or two doesn't make you a kittypet. 12:38, April 19, 2015 (UTC)

Is it agreed that they both don't get kittypet ranks or something? 07:57, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

No it isn't, we ned more opinions. 11:56, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Spoiler Tag
I am glad that the spoiler tag has been moved up for Brightheart and Briarlight at least. I'm just noticing that a lot of main quotes, not just the these two cats, give big spoilers. Most of the time, even the name of the character is a very good spoiler. I think the spoiler tag needs to be moved up to above the main quote. 08:12, March 13, 2015 (UTC)

Mmhmm, I say move it. I'm totally up for it and would gladly help with that. Some of these quotes are really iffy and there's no point in changing the quotes tbh- they're main ones for a reason.

Schmeh, radical idea here, not really, but do we still need the spoiler tags? 17:26, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

Definitely! Spoiler tags warn that this will contain spoilers. At least the history points out which spoilers it has. 21:02, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

I'd say go for it, do you want me to start now? 07:38, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Maybe let's wait a bit longer for other people to comment. 23:49, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Descriptions alongside toggles
ok this has been bugging me for a while now, but since we use toggles for characters like brackenfur and mapleshade, I don't get why we don't list the secondary description alongside it? it's not that hard to have the second description below the normal one just saying 'brackenfur is also frequently described as a ginger tom'. it saves the confusion of having to bloody look everywhere for the reason for the toggle, too. 15:04, March 24, 2015 (UTC)

It would make loads of sense, especially in Mapleshade's case- she's called ginger-and-white and a tortie multiple times; Mapleshade's Vengeance has her as ginger-and-white. Might prove useful to add the alternate descriptions.

hi can we get some input on this 03:03, March 29, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. It avoids any confusion and such. Just make sure if we do that, have the main charart image switch between the official and alt images. 00:01, March 31, 2015 (UTC)

Tallshadow's camp + Clear Sky's camp
I don't know if this has been proposed in the past, but if it has, I will bring this up again. I'm not exactly sure why they got a rogue rank. Our definition for a rogue is, "A Clanless cat that lives alone and causes trouble". These cats are nowhere like that. They don't "live alone", as they band together in a hollow, but nor do they "scorn the clan cats for their beliefs" as they probably believe in StarClan. But I'm not too sure what rank they would get anyway, they don't fit for a warrior/loner. 09:46, April 4, 2015 (UTC)

They were initially called rogues in The Sun Trail by various cats that had already lived in the area...but as time goes on in Dawn of the Clans, they're continually called former rogues, and clearly have some sense of organization. I think we had plans on waiting until Path of Stars to decide what to do with them, just in case they had become warriors as we know them, but judging by context, I don't know if they're going to get that far.

I think they have evolved beyond rogues, but I think the best decision is to wait for the next book to come out before discussing more about it. 23:51, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Bloomheart ~ Silver Nomination
I only added a few more quotes. Comments? 04:08, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

CBA? 19:52, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

Holiday
I'll be going on holiday from tomorrow until May 12th. I will have my laptop so I'll still be around but I won't have all my warriors books and activity will slow down. I know I'll be busy so I'll jump on when I can. 04:08, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Darkstar ~ Silver Nomination
thank you skt for his work on the page. comments?? ;; 23:07, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

I've made links and fixed some grammar. Maybe check for grammar and add more quotes? I'm pretty sure there is some more good ones somewhere. 23:23, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Went through for a read and didn't find anything, but I added in a quote. She doesn't say much, wowza. 23:56, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

CBA? 19:53, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

Join
May I join this project? 08:27, April 24, 2015 (UTC)

Sure! Please look at the FAQ and Guidelines. Welcome! 04:09, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

Hello
I'd like to join PC. 22:12 Fri Apr 24

Welcome! I'll add you in. be sure to check the FAQ and Guidelines. 04:09, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

Purdy ~ Silver Nomination
I managed to finish this in the nicke of time, but I couldn't put it up for a while. Comments? 04:09, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

Hickorynose ~ Silver Nomination
He has an awesome kit. Comments? 09:02, April 26, 2015 (UTC)

Join
Hey there! I was wondering if i coud join PC? 15:52, April 26, 2015 (UTC)