Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Kestrelflight
'Kay,this was brought up. This is whether Kestrelflight needs those mottled grey alts. The fact is he /is/ mottled grey, and it seems like a partial description, as he is brown-grey, and mottled, but the thing is, they don't always have to bring up the white splotches. Whatcha think? 07:45, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

It seems like a partial description to me. Yeah, they're wonderful images, but are they needed? I'm not entirely sure.

Ok, I might sound a little biased here, but partial descriptions are for cats like Hazeltail, being called gray when she is gray and white or a brown tabby being called brown. Gray-brown is a very destinct color, and to me, looks a lot different than gray or brown. Brook has had a gray-brown alt for who knows how long? And look at how different that color is from her pelt. Same with Kestrelflight. Those two images are very different in color. Now with the case of Bluestar and her offspring: blue-gray and gray are not very different. Blue-gray just has a slight blue tinge to it. Disagree if you will but I'm sticking by my original reasoning of providing that alternate image for him. 18:11, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

Ack forgot to mention something. He hasn't been called gray-brown at all in the Omen of the Stars arc, whereas he was in the Power of Three arc. It sounds like a mistake to me. 18:19, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

I've gotta agree with Ivy on this one. Gray-brown is a completely different color from gray and brown. And those images look a lot different. 07:22, 10, 08, 2012

Yep, agreeing with Ivy and DJ. I believe that the images should stay, they do look a lot different from his main ones. 21:21, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Gray-brown and gray aren't any different from blue-gray and gray though. The only thing that really puts it in question is the fact it also left out the white splotches.... But it seems like a partial to me. The images look different cause they're totally different styles, not cause they're extremely different descriptions. You should be looking at the difference between the descriptions, not the images. 06:49, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Paleh, my own cat, Hickory, has a gray-brown undercoat. That color alone looks so much different than any gray cat I've seen. 15:26, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

Oooh, now that you mention Hickory, yeah.....they are kinda different... (I've seen that ball of fluff before x3)

Yeah and this looks quite different from this. You're missing the point, it's still not two shades. And again, this is still a partial. 00:28, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not seeing your point here. Bluestar was not given a blue alt, one for it not being far enough from gray (I'm still under the assumption that she is blue-gray in her official art) and that a cat simply cannot be pure blue. Hazeltail got her gray alt removed because she specifically has gray on her. The color on my cat, which I know to be brown-gray, looks totally different than any gray cat I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe Kestrelflight and Bird need to be darker? (the only brown-gray I've seen on cats is actually dark and I'm sticking by this unless you show me a picture of another brown-gray cat that is not dark.) I'm sorry if I'm being difficult and/or stubborn about this, but nothing has been presented to change my mindset. My apologies. 00:43, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're seeing my point here, but whatever. Anything I say will just be a repeat of what I've already said. And since neither of our opinions seem to be changing, how bout we just leave it at that and let the others put in their opinions? 00:59, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I always thought grey-brown was something like this? http://www.iaza.com/work/120817C/iaza15955255639200.png Cause if it is, it doesn't seem like much of a difference. 07:09, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Brook is a gray and brown tabby, but she got a solid alt for being referred to as brown-gray. On that logic, I think Kestrel's should stay as well 00:07, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Scar, you're kind of missing the point... We know brook has that alt, but we're discussion whether gray-brown and gray/brown are more than one shade apart (I still say they're not), and whether Kestrel's alt is a partial or not. We can't look at alts we've done in the past for this, technically, depending on what we decide, it will affect those too, so we can't judge based on them. 01:36, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Mentor Program
Hey guys! So as heads of the mentor program, me and Cloudy were discussing, and we've decided that the mentor program is long overdue for a revamp. It's quite disorganized and lot of things could work better. So I thought I'd post this here, get your guys' thoughts on it, and maybe get some input on others things that could be fixed up. So tell me your thoughts. :) Here are the things we're planning to work on;
 * Overall just a layout rework to make it more welcoming. I'll play around with different layouts, but right now it just kind of looks messy and unwelcoming.
 * Getting more on top of assigning mentors to the apprentice that nobody volunteers for. Perhaps we could allow all SWs to do that so the job doesn't have to be put on only 2 or 3 people's shoulders?
 * Requiring that when a mentor volunteers to take on an apprentice, that apprentice has to respond on the request within a certain time period (I was thinking maybe a week) to confirm that it's fine before the request is archived. If the apprentice fails to respond, then the request will be declined and the mentor will still have an open spot. I've seen multiple people take on an apprentice, only to not get an answer from them whenever they try and talk to them.
 * This is a big one that we need to really work on: Maybe it very clear that the mentoring program isn't there so you can make good personal images. It's there for people interested in PCA only. I've seen users get mentors just to do personal image requests and such and never do anything in PCA. Perhaps a notification at the top of the page, and some text linking to the apprentice tutorials, for those who aren't interested in PCA, right below the apprentice request heading would help.
 * Furthermore with that, if a user applies and gets a mentor, and later reveals they have no interest in PCA, I believe the mentor should have right to decline teaching them further, and simply link them to the apprentice tutorials for anymore help. This program really isn't here to teach people chararts for fun, and it simply takes up mentor's time if that's all the users use it for.
 * I'd like to encourage mentors to have set assessments worked out for their apprentices, so they can track their progress, and clearly state what's been done when the graduate. Hopefully this will prevent people from posting graduation request simply because they're either bored of teaching their apprentice, or their apprentice is bored of learning.
 * The table that's on the front page, listing the mentors and apprentices, would be good to put on the actual page for the mentor program. It'd make it easier for users who wish to request mentors to see who's available.
 * A discussion section on that page, perhaps right below the graduation requests, would be very helpful. It would allow for mentors to ask for help easily, or provide a place for apprentice to ask questions.
 * A discussion section would also allow for activity reports, so that if a mentor or apprentice goes inactive, it can be reported and either that apprentice can be assigned a new mentor, or the mentor will be released to take a more active apprentice.
 * Also related to activity, I'd like to suggest that if an apprentice goes inactive from PCA (even if they're still active with their mentor), then their mentor should be allowed to decline them further teaching till they're active again. As I've said before, this program is for PCA alone, and if a user's not active in PCA, what's the point?

Now I think that was all I planned to bring up..... I'll post later if I forgot anything. XD So what do you guys think? Thoughts? Ideas? Our ears are open for anything that'd make the mentor program better. 04:01, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

This page does need a huge revamp. I honestly don't have much ideas on how this would work, but I'll try. I agree on allowing all SW's to assign apprentices to mentors, as we can get things done more quickly. I discussion section would be very helpful, allowing apprentices and mentors to ask for help and clear confusion. I think there should also be some sort of requirements for graduating so mentors don't do it just because they can't be bothered teaching them anymore. And yes, we somehow need to get the point across that the mentor program is a PCA-purpose only. All those ideas are great Paleh, I agree. 10:12, 18, 08, 2012

Actually with my apprentices, I have this grading chart that allows them to grade themselves, and then I grade them. Rain bow   Fli  ght  14:17, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Great ideas, Paleh. I also agree with allowing SW's to assign apprentices to mentors, for sometimes I see those still waiting for a replies, so it would make it more efficient and it would get done faster. I also agree with DJ's idea, I think doing that would make the program even better. 17:02, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I think this is an excellent idea and it could really have a good effect on the mentor program. I agree with all these ideas, and I also love the idea of having set requirements in order for a user to graduate. 17:06, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Fantastic ideas. I would like for the mentor program to be a working business again, like it was when it first started. Now we have users who requested mentors in June. We can't give them mentors anymore because none of them have edited since.. so.. Would we just get rid of their applications? 17:26, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I like these ideas too. It'll make sure the Mentor Program is getting what it's worth. It'll be much more beneficial to PCA. A lot of the users applying for mentor's leave a request and than don't edit at all, this will clean it up probably. 17:51, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Oh another thing that I forgot to add, I think we should make it a rule that apprentice applications have to be filed correctly, otherwise they're automatically declined. Most people who've ever taken care of that page know what a pain it is when apprentices don't file their request properly, and you have to clean up after them. If they can't be bothered to read directly above for how they should do it, I think we should have full right to decline their request till they do.

And splook, yeah, for any inactive users, their requests will be declined. For those who are active on the wiki but no PCA, perhaps we could ask if they still want a mentor, and if they don't respond within a week, decline it. 21:07, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that if they don't fill out their application properly, we should decline it. It is annoying when so many users don't read the instrutions, so I agree on that. 02:09, 19, 08, 2012

I agree. Their application should be declined if they do not take the time to follow the instructions. Rain bow   Fli  ght  17:54, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Everything's been said. I agree 100% with this. 06:37, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, so how do you guys think the assessments should work? Should we have a set of them that all users have to pass, or have set ones depending on what the apprentice requested to learn, or just let the mentor figure them out specifically for their apprentice, then post what they were at graduation? 11:01, August 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I was thinking that we could have some sort of a more organized system of graduating and assessing combined. Maybe there could be some kind of approval process for final assessments so that apprentices could graduate. Should a mentor feel that the apprentice is ready for their final assessment, then the apprentice will make what art pieces are needed, and have those chararts go to some sort of approval process. If s/he passes, then they are ready for graduation. Dunno, but it's just an idea. 05:27, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the assessments could have set standards. Like, in order to graduate, a user must make a solid cat with up to three comments on it. Dunno, that's a raw idea. 05:15, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

^^ Me likey xD Maybe, the mentor could get a task from another warrior/mentor for their apprentice to perform, and then judge it (like if Lapwing were an apprentice with a mentor. Her graduation assignment, given by Cloudy, was to make a tortie and white queen, and then it'd have to pass Cloudy's assessment, like be deemed at least 90% done or something. idk). 03:28, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm well problem with that is it'll only show whether or not the learned just one thing. Being able to do one thing doesn't necessarily mean they're ready to graduate. I kind of like the idea of having a set list of things the apprentice needs to accomplish and show their mentor to show they're ready to graduate. But that's just me. *shrugs* 17:17, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe instead of having a "final assement" as such (well, it still would be a final assement), the mentor could just ask the apprentice to make a set of different types of cats once they think that they're ready. The mentor could discuss with another mentor the improvements to be made and the percentage of completion. If they believe they are good enough images and if the apprentice has learned a lot since starting apprenticeship, they could gratuate. They'd have to fit into the requirements to graduate of course. Idk, just my thoughts. o-o 02:52, 08, 09, 2012

Hmm that may work, though I was thinking something a bit different. It's really up to you guys.

What I was more thinking, is having a list of things the apprentice has to learn/prove they can do throughout their training. Not just one thing at the end of their training. More like a list including patterns such as solid, tabby (may include tabby types if the mentor wishes), tortie, dappled/mottled, and so on. And also have them show that they can use the four main blanks well; Warrior, Apprentice, Kit, and Leader. So it could just be stuff they work on through their training and once they've completed the list and both mentor and apprentice are satisfied, the apprentice could graduate. I think we could trust the mentors to know well enough what's good enough quality to pass assessments without forcing them to check with another mentor. That could of course be allowed for those that are unsure, but I don't really think we need to make it something that's required.

So yeah, that's more how I was thinking it could go, but there's a lot of ways we could do it, and it's up to you guys. Maybe we could even put up a vote with the different systems for it if it gets down to it. *shrugs* 21:02, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Oh and another idea for the whole program in general, maybe, if the Join.Me thing gets more active, we could have mentors assign some sessions for the apprentices to go to if they need help in that area, as learning from a couple people, and a couple different techniques for it could be better than just learning from your mentor, who may not specialize in it or anything. The mentor and apprentice could just work out between the two of them which sessions would be good for the apprentice, and which they would be able to attend.

I don't know, just a thought. 21:06, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I rather like the idea of having assignments for apprentices to work on, even if the assignment isn't what the apprentice originally requested to learn- they need to know how to work with most pelt types and the four main blanks. There's no getting around it, really.

I also agree that mentors don't have to check with other mentors to see if an image is good enough quality. If you approve the application, then the leads of the mentor program are proving that they trust in the mentor's abilities to teach, as well as their judgement when it comes to images. Of course, the option's always okay; if the mentor wishes for a second opinion, they should be granted one. But, if they don't want one, they shouldn't be forced to.

The Join.Me suggestion is also good. I like it. x3 21:25, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

This has been sitting her for a while. Have we come to a conclusion on how we're going to do the assessments? 03:21, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Medicine Cat Apprentices
Alright well I actually should have posted this here in the first place rather than PC, but I derped. So here we go.

I think MCAs that have gone through their medicine cat ceremony should get full medicine cat images. They've had their full medicine cat names listed on their pages in the charcats for a while. We also have plenty enough proof in my opinion that after that ceremony, they are full medicine cats, even if they have mentors until their mentor retires or dies. (see the Medicine cat page for the cites)

Now of course name should not be an indicator alone for whether an MCA has become a full medicine cat, as they can become MCAs after getting their warrior names, however we shouldn't have to worry about this. All the MCAs that would get full medicine cat images from this have gone through their full ceremonies so there would be no question on them.

So thoughts? 23:03, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

I have been wondering about this for a while, actually.... But even though they have gotten their full Medicine Cat names, I disagree with them getting full Medicine Cat blanks. I believe they should stick to what the Clan sees them as, which is still apprentices. 19:51, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

They aren't still apprentices though. They completed their training, and despite having a mentor till their mentor dies or retires, they're full medicine cats after the ceremony. And we've had the names listed there for a while, so why should they not get images if the names were already listed? 20:04, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Though, technically, they'd still be learning, (like spur of the moment stuff) I think it'd count. 23:30, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

Even if they are still learning, so are young warriors. I think this sounds fine. 01:44, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

I suppose... I kind of see what you mean now, Paleh. I'm all for it. ^^ 22:06, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Agreeing, they are full medicine cats and have completed their training, so I'm all for it. ~00:42, 22, 09, 2012~

Have we decided on this?

Golden/Sandy
Please forgive me if this topic has been brought up before. In Mistystar's Omen, Mothwing was mentioned with a sandy pelt. Personally, I thought that golden and sandy were different enough that this could qualify for an alt., but I wanted to get the opinions of others first. Comments? 19:47, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. In cats at least, golden and sandy are more or less the same thing. 23:08, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Sandy would be like light ginger or a tabby cream cat, such as Sandstorm. It's different but I don't think it's two shades. 18:56, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Golden is light ginger, or gingerish creamy. It's the same as sandy. Not a little bit, it's just a specification on the shade of golden. It's not different at all. 03:20, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Lionblaze and Firestar
This has been bothering me awhile and I can't remember ever bringing it up, but I don't think that Firestar should have his golden alt, and Lionblaze shouldn't have his orange one. Gold and orange/ginger are not more than two shades apart, if they can even be considered one shade apart. It seems too close to the same color for them to be considered enough to warrant an alt. I'm not saying that this means we need to make all our golden cats more ginger, or our ginger cats golden - I just think that if a golden cat is called ginger or a ginger cat golden it should not warrant an alt. 23:31, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, they're definitely not two shades apart. It's been bugging me too. However Firestar's specifically bright ginger, which maaaaay be two shades. I'm not sure. But Lionblaze definitely shouldn't have his alt. 18:16, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. It's basically add a little bit of yellow to his pelt and he'd be golden. It's even less of a difference than just plain ginger and gold. 03:41, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

No... I think it'd be two shades. Golden > Ginger > Bright ginger. There's quite a big difference with the images, and a fair difference with the colors if it's specifically bright, flamey ginger, and I believe it's two shades. 08:05, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Lionblazes alt should defiantly be removed. As for Firestar's, I suppose it depends on how you see bright ginger. I would say his alt would just have enough difference from his main pelt color to be considered two shades, imho. (This is DJ not signed in) 94.13.152.170 17:10, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

But isn't bright ginger like this? Just sort of having more contrast between the stripes and the base pelt? 23:31, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Eh, more or less like that. Though it has nothing to do with the stripes as far as I know. Bright ginger = saturated ginger. Golden is closer to pale ginger. That's a fair difference. And I'm pretty sure two shades. 18:59, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

What is this?
I'm back, nananananana.

Well... maybe? I miss you guys even though I don't know anyone anymore ._. Darkhallows  Enter the cave? 07:00, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

nkfnkfnklfnkwfqw, Dark. Duuude, where the heck have you been? o.o 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I missed you Darky! I was around before you were the leader, but you probably don't remember n00by 'ol me ;) Don't worry, the newer members don't bite! 16:48, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, you were leader back when I was a kit. :3 I'm retired now, but good to see you back around! 19:55, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Darkie's back!!!! 22:02, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Ohey Dark, I remember you c: It's good to see that you're alive~ 8D 23:41, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I've been... life-ing. I'm much busier than I was back before I left, lol! I remember all of you guys <3. How's the project going? Why were so many blanks redone? Why do I have so many questions? Darkhallows  Enter the cave? 06:32, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

We redid the apprentice blanks because they weren't anatomically correct (and the tails were just...ugly and overrally annoying to work with x3), and that's also why the loner and rogue blanks were redone. We have multiple anatomy experts in PCA, so these things were pointed out. There are softpaw blanks being made because we've decided that softpaws and to-bes are not the same, despite them using the same blank. The project's excellent, although we've had some minor issues that we've worked out since then.

Ohmygod. Darky's back. 8DDD 20:26, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I guess that makes sense, The tails were pretty long xD. Would you mind adding me back as a warrior? I'm afraid I haven't got the time for anything else. Darkhallows  call me maybe 21:27, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Done. That's totally understandable, Dark. And yes, they were. x3

Dark, I'm pretty sure you were the leader when I first joined(maybe not). Anyways welcome back. :)) ~09:03, 01, 10, 2012~

Problem
Hi guys, I was wondering why I was removed from the page. Could you please tell me why on my talk page. 05:03, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

You were removed from the project due to inactivity. 08:30 Sun Sep 30

If you even /bothered/ to read the edit summary I made, you would know why you were removed...e.e If you're not active in the project, you can and will be removed. You're more than welcome to join again, if you please. However, you must stay active in order to stay in the project.

Alright. I want to be added in again with Berry as my mentor. -- 10:47, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

To request a mentor you can request one at the mentor program. <span style="">~09:03, 01, 10, 2012~

Request to Join
Hello! I was just wondering if I could join this Project.

22:15, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Of course you can join =) Just make sure to look at our guidelines to get to know the project, and feel free to visit the apprentice tutorials or the mentor program if you ever need any help.  20:35, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Leaving
So...I'm leaving! For a while. I've kinda lost intrest in the series. I tired to stick it out until DoTC. But....I just can't stay here until there just to chat. Cause.That's.Not.Fair. If i'mma be here, you guys should expect me to edit. So....I figuered the easiest thing to do is quit the wiki for a little while, re-read the series and see if that gets me back into it. But...don't count on it too greatly, amici.

So...Until I might come back!~

-Canadia Pad  foot Mischief Managed 03:27, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Mistystar's Fur
In Mistystar's description, it says she has thick fur, then how come she appears short-haired in the charart? Finchsong (talk) 03:47, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Thick fur does not equal long fur. A cat can have thick fur, but it's also short at the same time. /Thickness/ has nothing to do with the length of it.

Long fur is not the same as thick fur- it simply has more of a length value to it while thick fur has more of a heavy mass. In other words, thick fur is more "heavy" while long fur is more "long". This explains why, though the artist has the final call on if they want to use the long-furred or short-furred charart, Mistystar has short fur despite having thick fur. -- 03:53, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

I have an example for you. Graystripe and Fireheart are talking, and one of them remarks about Firestar having a nice coat since it's thick or something. I'll use my real cats, George and Hickory to demonstrate their point. George has short hair, but is very thick and dense, because when I brush him, I get a bag full of fur off of him. Hickory is incredibly longhaired, but he has teeny tiny hairs and when you brush him, not very much comes off. I hope that made sense, it's really the only way I can explain it :)  21:41, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Clarification
Hey all. I want to get your opinions on tweak nominations. If you were absent during the voting of a charart, but you're either the OA or you redid it, and nobody has claimed the image for themself, do you think it would be acceptable for the person to add (Reserved to User so-and-so until "date one week away")? Not to any charart because then anybody could claim any image they wanted for themselves and abuse the power, but I think it would be fair if it's your image. Of course, this does apply to me wanting my two Yellowfang images, but I want it for everybody, not just me. Input? :)  21:45, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's acceptable. If you're the OA and you didn't get a chance to claim your images because you were away, you should have every right to claim it. In cases of tweaks, it would be a lot easier, since more often than not, the user tweaking doesn't have the original file, while the OA /would/. I see no issues with it.

Join Request
Can I rejoin the project please? Thamks! Oh, and when I rejoin, I want berry to still be my mentor. 02:30, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Of course you may! If you need a refresher, here's the guidelines and apprentice tutorials, and you may be able to have Berry as your mentor, but as I am no longer involved in that aspect of the project, I am unsure. 02:34, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Break
Okay everyone, I've decided to take a short break from the project. With me being in holiday wifi is hard to get, and I can't keep on being active. I don't know exactly how long this break will be, but I /will/ return. So for now bye. -waves- (DJ not signed in :/) 93.158.36.53 21:02, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Awww man :C I'll miss ya DJ. Hope you come back real soon! <span style="">00:48, 11, 10, 2012

Emberpoppy7 - Join Request
Hello there, I'm interested in joining the Project. Emberpoppy7 (talk) 23:39, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Please read over the guidelines and take a look at the mentor program or the tutorials if you need extra help. Welcome to the project! <span style="">00:48, 11, 10, 2012

Page Grading
Yo guys.

Just wanted to point out something that has been bugging me for a while. How exactly are pages graded by this project? No one I've asked seems to know. Is there even a point to grading the pages via this project? Chararts change so often (not that that's a bad thing) that accurately grading any page based on chararts would be very difficult, to say the least.

Anyway, I think that this aspect of the project needs to be examined and either eliminated or explained in way that everyone can understand, since obviously not many do. Pages have these grades randomly at the moment. 01:34, October 12, 2012 (UTC)