Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

A proposition concerning project vernacular
This is a rather simple proposition concerning one name used in PCA.

I'd like it if Senior Warriors could no longer be called leads.

You see, it may seem like a silly thing to want to change, but here's the reasoning: words are powerful. When a senior warrior is called a lead, it sends the message to new or prospective users that we are in charge, which we are not. We merely have been recognized by the project to have a decent amount of experience, which is reflected in the title of Senior Warrior, and are given the responsibility of approving or declining images. To call us leads is to put us too far above the rest of the project, and as a senior warrior I'm uncomfortable with that.

Comments? 19:30, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

So, do you want there to be no senior warriors at all? I think we just help out the leader and deputy. They can't approve every image or add in every new user all on their own. No, we aren't in charge, but we could shake off the status of being a lead. We'll still be senior warriors and uphold all the responsibilites of being one, but we don't lead the project. I see your point, and I'm open to see what other users have to say. 19:50, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

What gave you the idea that that is what I wanted? No, I just want us to cease being called leads, that's all. 20:01, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I don't care either way. But the keystrokes to type "lead" are a whole lot easier than typing "Senior Warrior," which is probably how the term came about. I think it's up to the individual person as to what they prefer to type, but if you mean official guidelines and things like that, I agree that the official term should probably be used to make it sound more...official. Breeze whisker  20:05, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Why? Senior warriors ARE in charge., Not as much as leader or deputy, but they still are high ranks. At first I had a lot more to say but now I'm dead. XP 20:07, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * This point of view is both incorrect and outright harmful to the project. The leveled listing of the project was always intended to show experience with the tasks of the project, and to assign extra responsibilities to users. It does not indicate that anyone is in the charge of the project. This is because the Project Members should be leading the project via consensus. Leader, Deputy and Senior Warriors only have extra responsibilities. That's all that sets them apart from the rest of the project. Perhaps it was a mistake on my part to borrow from the books for cutesy names for project membership, as people have an unhealthy tendency to take it too seriously. 16:24, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

You hate me, don't you Shell? Jk. I honestly don't care what SW's are called. Just as long as we have them. 20:10, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Nah, don't hate anyone. XD But yeah. Senior warrior's aren't in charge, it's arrogant of us to think we are. We're just here to help guide people along and keep the project moving while contributing to it, and that's the extent of it. 20:13, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

I kinda agree with Icy, and at the same time, I don't really care all that much. XD I think we do kinda have a right to be called leads, but I really don't care all that much if that changes. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  00:19, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, since it's a whole lot easier just to type leads. Keeping in mind that "lead" technically means "senior warriors, deputy, and leader", it's a whole lot easier to type. You're right Shelly, we're not in charge, but we do possess a higher rank (for lack of a better word) than warriors and apprentices. We have the power to approve or decline images, to decide on CBA, and accept new users into the project. Disclaimer: Remember that in no way are senior warriors better than other users just because we have privileges. 00:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

I really don't care either way I never call you guys leads anyway I usually just say SW, so really I don't care. But they are 'leader's' of the project so it makes sense to call them leads. 02:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, SW is a lot easier to type then lead(s). It's just 2 letters! I agree with you Shelly, and I can see why it annoys you. You're not in charge and don't exactly have the right to lead this project. What you do have the rights too and warriors and apprentices can't access, is declining, approving images, CBAing, creating voting forums, etc. Those are the things a leader/deputy would do though, but the only other things leaders/deputies can do that you can't is annoucing new deputies/leaders, and making the final decision for the project. (i probally missed a lot more though.) 23:44, Thu, Dec, 29, 2011

Just a random bit of input from me, concerning another reason the word "lead" shouldn't be used. It's misleading in more ways than just what it implies. It also creates "insider" language that makes the project seem more exclusive and special. It's completely non-intuitive (SW=Senior Warrior is not only intuitive, but a common bit of Warriors Fanon Vernacular). I personally hate the use of the word "lead" by this project.L/D/SW is more descriptive and would at least be intuitive to new members mores than the "Lead". And honestly, why not just type out Leader, Deputy and Senior Warriors. It's not like we pay for bandwidth by the character or anything. Say what you mean, don't use lingo to say what you mean. You could also.. You know... Add the Leader and Deputy to Senior Warrior list (which they technically should be eligible for, anyways, and just use the word SW... It would also save time when a person leaders the Leader or Deputy position in the project, too. 16:20, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

I honestly don't see what the fuss is about, as it's only a word that isn't supposed to be an easier way to type out Senior Warrior/Deputy/Leader, but I'll run with it. How about we call them "Senior Members"? SMs for short? That doesn't seem like it would be difficult to type out, and it doesn't seem completely unintuitive. I dunno. Just a compromise, maybe? 21:58 Sun Jan 1

I'd rather not combine everyone into one category. We're all really not that different, but there should still be a distinguishable line between senior warrior, deputy, and leader. I feel like if we call everyone senior warrior, we're losing what we have as a project. That sounds really stupid, now that I'm reading it again, but I'll stand by it. 00:59, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that we change the rank title. I just suggest that we no longer be called leads, that's all. 01:13, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I know, Shelly, I was referring to other suggestions. 01:29, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Wildheart. Senior Members seems like a reasonably good name. 00:36, Tue, Jan, 3, 2012

I don't see how a euthanism will solve the problem. Senior members doesnt really change anything. 02:54, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Referring to Senior Warriors, the Leader, and the Deupty collectively does make a difference. It's much better than calling us "leads". 01:23, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

So do we stick with Senior Members? 02:44, Thu, Jan, 19, 2012

Furled Bracken?
This has probably been brought up before, but I do want to know the answer, so I'll ask it now. Should Furled Bracken get a Leader image, a Healer one, or should a new blank be made for him? It seems wrong to leave him as just a Sharpclaw, even if he is the only leader of the ancients that we've seen. We had a healer blank for Stoneteller back when he was the only Healer we'd seen, so why not Furled Bracken? Just wondering. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  09:29, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

We had this debate a few years ago.....the leader then, Bramble, decided for him to not get a healer blank. -- 10:01, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

He was a leader, but not in the literal sense. There was no deputy, no medicine cat, and barely the same apprentices we know now. He may have led a group of cats, but they weren't a true Clan. I don't think he should. 21:59, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Oblivion on this. It's kind of like Scourge. he led a group of cats, but didn't get a leader charart. 22:01, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

If he got one it should be a healer, but I don't think he should, also didn't he give the position to Stone Song? 23:11, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, making an Ancient Leader blank would be fine with me, really. Could be fun. 23:40, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Are the Ancients like BloodClan? If they are and Furled Bracken gets one, would that qualify Scourge too, if they're not a true Clan? Sky- Lather. Rinse. Obey. 23:44, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

What about an outside-the-Clan-leader blank? Probably not that name... ♫Purplemoon♪   2012! The end of the world?  23:46, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

No, no, I didn't mean like Scourge. Scourge's "Clan" are just a bunch of rogues kept together by fear of Scourge. However, if we do make a blank for the Ancient leaders, then how many would we have? Off the top of my head, I can think of two. 01:04, January 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * is dumb* I is a good idea though, but I spose it wpuld have to wait like the prisoner blank. (if it's agreed to be done.) Sky- Lather. Rinse. Obey. 01:06, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Why not make a Ancients leader blank? Like I said, we had a Healer blank when there was only one healer. The ancients are an organized group, unlike Bloodclan, so he should get some kind of blank. And why would it have to wait? It'd only be like 2 chararts to make.... ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  03:13, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Furled Bracken and Stone Song were a different rank than just a sharpclaw, they should get either a Healer or another separate blank. Breeze whisker  03:16, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't they know about herbs, though? I don't see why we shouldn't use the healer blank for them. 03:31, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Would they really count as healers though? Cause Half Moon was the first Stoneteller. Are Stonetellers and healers kinda different things? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  09:54, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

The Ancients and the Tribe are basically the same thing, but if they have separate pages, I guess it wouldn't mean that. I agree with Breezewhisker, they were more than sharpclaws. If they have separate pages, then I think they should get different blanks. 02:55, Wed, Jan, 11, 2012

Ive always thought we needed another leader blank for the cats that arent clans. One that could work for Scrouge and Furled Bracken and Jingo. I was thinking we could just take the current leader blank and tweak it a bit, to something like having the tail wrapped around the paws rather than just sticking out like it currently is, and maybe tweak the facial expression. It would match the leader and healer while still matching, and would keep with the theme. But if we decide to do it, we should wait until the loners are finished. 03:03, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I like that idea. 8D ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  09:24, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I like that idea too, maybe they could have something in their mouth of something? I always wanted Scourge to have something 01:55, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I too like the idea of that. If that's the case though, would Bone need a "tweaked" deputy charart? 05:50, Thu, Jan, 12, 2012

Unrealistic Cats?
Alright, there has been some discussion about this, and sorry if someone has already tried this before, if so, completely ignore this. I have recently seen that we have been, well, changing the descriptions of the cats. Like with Leafstar, we decided not to give her cream patches to make her more "realistic". Or Birdsong, where her having ginger flecks only on her head would not be "realistic" so we had to add them all over her, thus changing her description a tad. In my opinion, I think this is wrong. We are here to provide information straight from the books, not bend it, even if it is just a slight change of things. I know it isn't such a big deal, but it bothers me, and possibly others, too. Now, I understand that sometimes we have to make these changes. Like with Firestar, he had an unrealistic tabby pattern, so we changed it. But it still matched his description. In my opinion, I think we should change these cats back to their original descriptions. Now, I know people will disagree with me on this, but I merely wanted to hear what other people thought about this, so please don't take this the wrong way. 03:14, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I sorta agree with you on this. It's like we're assuming their descriptions now. I said something like what you did on Weaselfur's apprentice on the approval image 03:34, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Leafstar isn't described with cream patches, actually. She's a brown and cream tabby. Nowhere in her description does it mention patches. And Firestar's being changed for more than his tabby pattern. 03:50, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

On topic, though, I do see why it'd be a problem to make chararts that deviate from cat desctiption (though I have not seen a cat's description on their page changed thus far to suit a charart, so...). But on tabby stripes, I still prefer that we use realistic patterns as often as we can. We want to produce qualtiy art that looks as close to real cats as we can, and just making up some pattern that would never be seen in real life isn't accomplishing that. 03:57, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Unless something unrealistic is specifically described in the books, we should always error on the side of realism. It's safer to assume "normal cat" if it's not specifically described than anything else. 15:13, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I hate how Billystorm and other ginger cats have stripes, I think the Erins would have said ginger tabby but he is called a ginger and white tom. 15:30, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

So you'd rather over half of the ginger cats look like goldfish? 15:48, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

It is genetically impossible for a ginger cat to not be a tabby. 15:50, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

First off, I want to say thank you, Misty. I've been seeing this as well and it has bothered me to no end. We're deviating too much from the cats' original description. And if you want to argue genetics, Shelly, it's also gentically impossible for cats like Blackstar to exist. So are we going to change his images to make them more "realistic"? Every time I've mentioned this before, I've been shot down with the whole "Then how come we have stripes on the gingers?" I am personally against the ginger stripe thing, and I really think we should get rid of those. 19:38, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

In Blackstar's case, his pattern is specifically described many times. With any other case, as Kit said, we should assume these cats look realistic. That means stripes on the ginger cats. 19:51, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well in the series is fiction and in the manga's he has no stripes, and I read here 'all cats are genetically tabbies' so again we could redo all the charaters and make them tabbies if you like but I think it's a waste of time and there is no need for it. 22:09, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, all cats have the genes and have a tabby M on their heads. Ginger cats just always have obvious stripes. Ones you can see without putting a few hairs under a microscope. 22:47, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

And Mistypebble, I find it odd that you're protesting us making realistic chararts when, at this very moment, you're redoing Songbird's charart for realism. 22:57, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should try to make cats realistic if we can, without changing the description that was mentioned in the book. Warriors is a fantasy, so anything can happen really. I agree we should try to make all tabbies realistic, keep the stripes on the gingers, unless they were specifically described as a solid. 02:38, Mon, Jan, 9, 2012

o.O I'm sorry. I thought I deleted this. I read it over a few times, and I realized that its right that we make them more realistic. I don't know why it posted... So sorry for being bothersome, this didn't need to be brought up. 22:27, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it did. You are absolutely right to say that the cats should keep their descriptions. 22:31, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

We'll make cats realistic if we can, nut still keep the descriptions. 01:41, Fri, Jan, 20, 2012

Final Proposal on Screening Process
The final proposal on the screening process is up for evaluation here. This is the last chance to get you input on the process before it goes to vote! 21:13, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Loner Vote
Go vote. 09:20, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

When does it end? 19:14, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Just a question, can we update our image while they're up for a vote? I made mine in like 10 minutes cause I was in a hurry, and was hoping to be able to work on it more, so... XD  Pale Legs   ♪Be prepared...♪  00:34, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

As long as its not a total redo and minor tweaks, it should be fine Paleclaw. And i forgot to write the date for the ending but I'll go add it now. 02:52, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I don't want to redo the blank but I would like to say that the tail down would be alot more accurate I don't have the example pictures with me now but I'll post them later, thanks. 21:48, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Revising the Tweaking Process
So I'm bringing this to the collective attention of the project, as it seems there have been a couple issues with this lately.

Issue: There is no process for nominating images. This seems to lead to confusion over whether an image really needs to be tweaked/redone or not,sometimes arguments, and occasionally hurt feelings.

My proposal: we implement a tweak-nominating process. I say we have two sections in the tweak nominations forum: the Approved Tweaks section and the Nomination section. Under both headings there would be two subheadings, named Tweaks and Redos. Under the Nominations section, you can link an image, and list the reasons it should be redone/tweaked. To approve a tweak/redo nomination, a certain amount of Senior Members would have to sign and leave a vote under the filename and reasons, to make sure that no perfectly good images get tweaked or redone simply because a SM didn't check the list before an artist posted it. For a tweak, I say we should have to have two SMs sign and agree to it, and for a redo, perhaps three. Then, once the process is approved, we can have a subpage or whatever so we can archive the nominations and add the image filename to the other heading (Approved Tweaks). Then any artist would be able to strike out the filename and reserve it, like we do now.

Thoughts? 00:59 Sun Jan 15

Good idea. I agree with you. 01:04, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

A bit confusing, but sounds good. 01:08 Sun Jan 15

I love this idea, Wildy but wouldn't it take a long period of time to complete all of the tweaks/redos? 01:12, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea. Even though it would take a while, it still makes sense. 01:15, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

If the SM do our job like we're supposed to, it shouldn't take long. I think we should come to a decision soon but I think we should hold off on redos until we've come to a decision. I like this idea! 02:34, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

We wouldnt need to archive it. You don't archive stuff from a forum, and we could just split the current forum up so its set up like this. I think we don't need to change the process personally, if people could just recognize that images belong to the wiki and not individuals, and them being redone to be better is half the point of this project. My images have been redone, i got over it. I think the current process is fine, and doing what is suggest about would just set up needless hoops for artist to jump through and slow the project down. 02:50, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Iceheart, I know who that was directed at, and that was cold. Unlike you, some artists take more then five minutes to work on a piece of artwork, and to see it done for no reason is just plain stupid. Something like this is needed, whether you like it or not. Colleen's right. Also, as a wiki, we need to document everything, including stuff on a forum page, and something like ^^that^^ is a perfect example of what should be kept. 03:04, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

It wasnt directed at anyone, just so you know. We never archive stuff form the current forum, so i assumed it wasnt an issue. And im a little hurt that you think i put so little effort into my art, that was cold. Im not going on whether i like it or not, im going on whether we need it or not. Am i not allowed to state my opinion? 03:10, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

But Iceheart, what if someone puts an image on there as soon as they take it and there's nothing wrong with it? Let's just use Foxleap's apprentice as an example: newly approved, nothing wrong with it. Someone that had REALLY wanted that image, then reserves it and redoes it. With no good reason. This would prevent that. Ugh edit conflicts! 03:11, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Ivy on this one. And WIildy. Though I think that we'd only need this process for redoing, not tweaking. And Icy and Cloudy, no offence to either of you, but could you take this to your talk pages? I think we've all had enough drama in the PCA, and I think this will help get rid of some of that. So please, if you're gonna fight, take it to your talk pages. I don't mean to be rude or bossy, I'm just sick and tired of the drama.  Pale Legs ♪Be prepared...♪  03:16, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Wow... the unbelievable politics of drawing cats.Cloudskye, how do you know that was directed at you? I honestly think you're being a bit too sensitive about this. She's right, when you submit an image it becomes the project's image and ceases to be yours. If it needs to get redone by someone else later, get the heck over it. If someone thinks that one of my images needs to be tweaked or redone, frankly I'd be fine with it. Accusing Iceheart of only taking five minutes to do an image is hateful and unnecessary. However, I do think that a revamp of the tweaking system is needed, so that there can be no doubt or argument on an image, only comments aimed at improvement. 03:16, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Ivy's idea: we should have a process for that. A nomination for revising whether what the did was nessacary, after they post it. It would be the more reasonable thing, and I can see it working out nicely. 03:17, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I really do think it'd cause less drama if we did it before though. <span style="border:2px dotted; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color:#4b3b6a; font-family:Cursive; background:#bdcdff; text-shadow:gray 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Pale Legs ♪Be prepared...♪  03:27, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. It increases communication, and it would be a whole lot more efficient to take this precaution than having a couple of members going at each other because they don't agree if something should be tweak/redone or not. Breeze whisker  03:31, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, two things: Paleh and Iceheart: I was not insulting the quality of Iceheart's work. What I meant was the time it takes to make an image. It takes some users longer then it takes others. I know I take forever and a day just to make a solid colored cat. Shelly, I'll be as sensitive as I want to be about this. I've been here far longer then the rest of you, so I'm a lot more attached to the wiki. If you wanna play the game of "once it's on here, it belongs to the wiki", then half of the images we currently have should be redone, because frankly, I think they could look better.

Sometimes, images are re-done for the wrong reasons. Not just my own. Iceheart's had some of hers redone, so has Icestorm (as we all know), and even myself. But, without proper reason, and without asking, well, that's where I get mad. If you've got a problem, then take it up with me personally.

As for the archiving... we should do it. A paper trail is a lot better then no trail at all. That way, if a user has an issue with an image in the future, they can look in the archive and see just why and how everything went down, inculding who gave permission and all that. 03:33, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

How long you've been here doesn't mean jack. Especially if you're going to point at Iceheart and try to say that she barely puts any work into her images or that she doesn't care about them. All images are subject to tweak or redo if they need to be. You are being over sensitive, and your seniority doesn't give you the right to insult people like that. 03:37, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Since no one seems to be listening to me... I did not say she does not care about them, nor did I sat that she doesn't put any work into her images. I was talking about the time it takes to make one. For all I know, five minutes could mean a lot when making a charart. Jeez. I'll say what I please, and I know what I meant. It's not my fault someone took it the wrong way. My seniority had nothing to do with it. I was just saying I'm more attached to the wiki then some of the newer members (like yourself and probably half of PCA. xD). All images are subject to being redone, you say? Fine. I'll remember that next time an image of someone else's gets done. 03:42, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, you guys are starting to scare me. Please just calm down about it, and stop fighting. I think some of you are over reacting, just a bit. Sorry if I sound rude, but your scaring me and it makes me uncomfortable over your fierceness in this "debate". (It seems like it has turned into one) <span style="">03:46 Sun Jan 15

No fighting. PCA is a wreck because of these fights. Enough. Look, I may not be a SM, but I want to stop this. Please... -- 03:50, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

^Agreeing with those two. If you're all gonna be grumpy, go be grumpy elsewhere. Just because you're all more senior members does not mean you should be allowed to go at each other out here. Take care of your issues in private like the rest of us. And do take care of them. Breeze  whisker  04:00, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

To be perfectly honest, I'm on Stoneclaw's side on this. But back to the point. I think that plenty our users are competent enough to tell blotchy shading when its there. Personally, I think that the nomination of tweaks and redoes, though a good idea, will just take too much time. Just one thing that I just feel I have to emphasize that the point of the project is to make high-quality images for the pages. Now, before anyone gets mad, these are just my opinions on the matter and are directed at nobody. (Thanks for the edit conflict, Breezy xP) 04:04, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Stoney. Quite the fighting. I meant it when I said go to your talk pages. This discussion is about discussing whether Wildy's idea would be good or not, and I'm on the verge of archiving it because all you guys are doing is fighting. If you wanna fight, by all means, go ahead. But do it away from the PCA. You guys are senior members and you should know better than to fight on the talk page. It's come to a point where people who are supposed to look up to you, and you're supposed to be an example for are having to tell you to take your fights away from here, and that's not right. I'm gonna be completely honest, if you guys are gonna cause an uproar everytime the smallest subject comes up, you shouldn't be a senior member. Now start acting your age and prove that you're worthy of the status that we all voted you to have and get on with the discussion, cause this is getting us nowhere. I mean it. (edit conflicts DX) <span style="border:2px dotted; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color:#4b3b6a; font-family:Cursive; background:#bdcdff; text-shadow:gray 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Pale Legs ♪Be prepared...♪  04:13, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Okay... wow... didn't mean to start a riot, guys :P Okay, so let's start anew (any comments after this that are not to do with the topic at hand, and I'm gonna follow Paleh's lead and archive this): Anyway, that's just my two cents. Thoughts and comments for improvement? <span style="">01:17 Mon Jan 16
 * Issue - archiving vs. not archiving: I think we should archive simply so we can have a paper trail of why images were redone, so users can go back and check it out. I think it's better to document everything than to not (better safe than sorry?).
 * Issue - will this slow the tweaking process down?: Ivy is right, if us SMs do our jobs right, then we're going to be able to keep this running smoothly and quickly. Plus, with the influx of new SWs, we're definitely going to be able to keep on top of this. Besides, this will help keep issues on the tweak page to a minimum, as we hopefully won't be arguing about whether or not the image should have been tweaked/redone.
 * Issue - the images don't belong to us once they're approved, so why does it matter what's redone/tweaked or not?: To put it simply, some images just don't need to be touched once they're approved. They look fine to everybody... except that one user who thinks the markings are ugly or the shading is slightly off, and puts the image on the tweaking list. Now, with the tweaking process the way it is now, we can't help that. Maybe a SM will catch it, and take the filename off the list, but maybe they don't have time to go through the list extensively, and maybe they miss it. What if that first user ends up redoing the image just because they thought that the shading was off? What if they end up making the image worse than it was before? What if they start a fight with the OA of the image because the OA thinks the image looked fine as it was? We can avoid all of that with a simple tweaking process: a "fair trial", if you will.


 * You actually bring up my personal reason for thinking there should be a formal process that leads to an image being tweaked: consensus. This establishes the consensus that an image should be tweaked, instead of just specific people thinking an image should be tweaked. It creates a forum for discussion in which people can please cases both for and against the need for a tweak. And if it slows tweaks down, well... Why do they need to be fast in the first place? We don't rush our artwork. Why should we rush the decision to replace our artwork? I support a formal means by which tweaks are proposed, and by which they are approved. Even if it's as simple as a discussion period, followed by examining the opinions by a senior warrior or higher that acts on the consensus (or calls for a vote, if the consensus isn't clearly established by the discussion). Frankly, though, any image without a clear "in favor" consensus probably shouldn't be on the tweaks/re-dos lists. This is a step in the right direction, as the tweaks page's staying (*cough* something I suggested, since art is never done, only abandoned) seems to have evolved into a series of conflicts concerning why certain images are getting redone. The paper-trail and the process are needed, or the Tweaks aspect needs to go back away. When it was just tweak weeks you guys basically created a forum and collectively decided what needs tweaking and what doesn't. That discourse needs to be a part of the permeant tweaks system. 18:27, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

This is just my opinion, but I think there needs to be a forum on this discussion.

Issue 1: I'm agreeing on archiving the forum. I agree with the reason Wildheart said above.

Issue 2: Yes, if the discussion on having more SW's succeeds, this should work. I agree with Kitsufox, we don't rush artwork, nor should we rush the discussion in our artwork.

Issue 3: PCA is one big family. We may fight, but at the end of the day, we work together to create chararts for the wiki. If one of your images needs tweaking/redoing, it's not the end of the world. Be happy you got it approved. I wouldn't care the slightest bit. If one user thinks the image needs tweaking, thats what the forum page is for. If more SM's disagree with that user, they can put it down.

So this obviously means I agree with this suggestion. That's my 2 cents, if you want to argue with me or anyone else, go ahead and do so on your talk pages. But I came to this project in peace, and I want to keep it like that. <span style="">01:23, Tue, Jan, 17, 2012

Shall I put a vote up? <span style="">23:41 Fri Jan 20
 * For what? You don't have a firm, formal proposal for the changes you want to make and the system that would be implemented. Without a what there's nothing to be decided other than the idea that many think reforms are necessary. A vote is pointless at this point (the fact that their's support for a reform clearly exists based on this conversation). I suggest creating a formal writeup as to the method you think should be implemented, and then start a forum discussion specifically to refine that proposal before a vote happens (the vote being for adopting the proposed system or not). There's no need to hold a vote to decide if we want to go forward. It's clear that there is interest in going forward from a lot of parties already. A vote wouldn't contribute to the discussion like creating a first draft proposal would. 23:54, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Kitsu. I've put my formal writeup here. Go take a look, everyone, and see if you agree. (Shelly: when you see this, could you put it in the news?). <span style="">04:04 Sat Jan 21

Join?
Can I Join? User: Fallenstars 21:40, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Join Request - Hazeleye
Can I join? 22:09, January 16, 2012 (UTC)Hazeleye

Made a seperate heading. <span style="">22:37 Mon Jan 16

Watermarking our images
As many of you know, the images and blanks made by PCA are very often taken and used on other websites. Since it's rather hard to enforce our claim to the images, I'd like to propose that a subtle, non-intrusive watermark be made and applied to each image. It shouldn't take long. The watermark can be made and saved by every user. All we need to do to add them is apply it on a new layer. It need not even cover the image. It could merely be small text place, for example, along the spine of the warrior images. Small, not getting in the way of the image, but in a place where it would be a deterrent for those that just go through google and see a cat image they want to use for their fan site. Having a watermark on the image will hopefully instill fear of using the images we make into those people. We could even apply them to the blanks.

Comments? 22:39, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

I've seen many people on deviantART do this with their blanks. Yeah it doesn't have to be on the cat but it'd take them some work to get it off the image, but it could just say (C) warriors.wikia.com or something. Great idea! 22:43, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea. <span style="">22:51 Wed Jan 18

I love this idea. Although I think the watermark should be at the corner or bottom, because some people, like me, can't read weirdly tilted writing. 23:17, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

I feel neutral about this. Responding to Quailflight, if the watermark is at the bottom, people can easily take them off. However, won't the chararts look funny posted with big watermarks on their pelts in character pages? New users might think we are overprotective of our art (which we very well should be), but they might have hesitation joining PCA. If there's an issue with what font to use and what it says, I suggest stopping the problem before it starts. Apprentices might get confused the extra process. Although, as Ivystripe said, not putting them on the pelts is a good idea. Again, that conflicts with what I said above. Like Ivy also said, other sites (including deviantART) have stolen and taken our images and saying they are their own, despite the warnings we've given them already without them even seeing the PCA page with the chararts listed there. I've seen some sites myself, as have other users, and reported to Shelly. What Shelly said about putting them on the spine (as I just read after I typed all of this) could work. But cats have different spines, so we'd have to make all different ones to fit cat's spines. I don't know, to me, it seems a lot of work, but that's me. I really wish I hadn't ranted up there, but I've already typed it. 23:33, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea too, but people could take it off anywhere on the picture. Spine, bottom, top, anywhere. Also, what about requests? Would we put them there too? 23:44, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

If you want to take it off when you make a request that'd be up to you. But... well, it's like a lock on a door. They're easily broken, but they keep honest people honest. In the end, if someone wants to break into your house with a passion, they will. But having a lock on your door will, in theory, remind people of their better nature. Such is the purpose of the watermark I propose. And yeah, we'd change it for each image and just put them on the blanks. We have every reason to be defensive of the images we make. We work hard on them. I don't want to see them used outside of the wiki. 00:18, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree. I'm tired of people taking our art and using it as their own. -- 00:50, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is a great idea. They don't even have to be solid, something transparent on the side would do it. Not in your face, but still noticeable enough for art thieves. Breeze whisker  00:59, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Breezewhisker. I'd like it not to be extremely noticeable, but something that you can see. And even though it makes sense, I'm not a big fan of the idea of the watermark on the body of the cat. Feel free to disagree, though... 02:01, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I never said it'd be on the body. It'd be outside the lineart, along the spine where it'd be difficult to remove it without damaging the image. 02:02, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I love this idea. It works well. (that is my bad comupter writing, without the typing tool =P) Btw I know this is not on the spine, but I can't write on a slant without it looking messy. <span style="">02:18, Thu, Jan, 19, 2012

I support this, but its not that easy to put watermarks on them without drawing attention to the words on the middle of the cat.Maybe a good idea is putting small, pale text on a part of them, saying (C) WWiki, thats small enough to not draw attention away from the cat, but large enough to see, maybe that way the person thats taking the charact cant take it off without erasing part of the picture. 20:58, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it would help erasing the watermark is very easy, and if they erase it they could say it's 'different' personally I don't like watermarks and I think it makes the image look... tacky (Not sure if that's the right word or if it's spelled right) That's my opinion. 00:12, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, honestly, unless they're over the image (which I think would just plan make them look back) they're extremely easy to remove. I'm not sure they'd help much. :/ Good idea, but I'm not sure it will be enough to stop people using these. <span style="border:2px dotted; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color:#4b3b6a; font-family:Cursive; background:#bdcdff; text-shadow:gray 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Pale Legs ♪Be prepared...♪  01:53, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I quote myself from the comments above: "It's like a lock on a door. They're easily broken, but they keep honest people honest. In the end, if someone wants to break into your house with a passion, they will. But having a lock on your door will, in theory, remind people of their better nature. Such is the purpose of the watermark I propose. And yeah, we'd change it for each image and just put them on the blanks. We have every reason to be defensive of the images we make. We work hard on them. I don't want to see them used outside of the wiki." I think a simple watermark will deter most of the offenders who take our images our of ignorance, not realizing that they really do belong to someone. Seeing a c in a circle has that effect on people. 14:42, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'd also rather see the full URL of this website in the watermark than just WWiki. Why? Because that way is someone takes them and reposts them at least a "Trail" is left back to us so that we get some free hits out of the deal ;) Not a fair trade, but better than getting nothing in return for it. 14:25, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

So shall I move this to a forum for proper discussion? I'm personally getting tired of dealing with those idiotic, lazy RP websites that can't make their own images and think that ours are free for use because, and I quote, "we saw them on a bunch of other RP websites, we thought they were free to use!" We can't easily defend our blanks and images without at least a visible reminder on each image that people are not allowed to use our work. We all work hard to make these images. I don't like to see them stolen and claimed by others. 18:36, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Hi guys
Ya so bascially im just here to say goodbye. I dont realy feel like i should be here anymore and i want to avoid all the drama so congrats Scarlet your the new leader. 02:31, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for this, Iceheart. It means there won't have to be a vote and a period of time in which PCA is without a leader.

I wish you would stay, but I respect your decision to leave. Best of wishes. Send a hello through Wildy once in a while. 02:34, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Aww.. bye Icy =(. What we ment on the forum doesn't mean that you have to leave. PCA thanks you for all the work you have done for us. <span style="">02:36, Thu, Jan, 19, 2012

Aww... Iceheart! We'll miss you so much! And I'll try my best not to let PCA crash into the ground. No promises though... If you ever want/feel like taking a stroll down memory lane and staying for a while, you'll always have a place among our ranks. 02:38, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sad to see you go, you were basically like my mentor and I'll never forget what you've done for me and PCA. But thanks for graciously stepping down instead of making this come to a vote. That shows a lot of maturity and tact (right word?). Tl;dr we'll miss you! 02:42, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Bye, Iceheart, we'll miss you. Please stop by every once and a while! 15:11, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Bye, Icy. Can't wait for you to drop in again! <span style="">21:35 Thu Jan 19

Bye Iceheart! You were a great leader. We'll miss you! -- 22:17, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Since I first got here so many leaders have gone... You like all of them were great. See you sometime later! Sandlegs What's up with  Leggy? 00:20, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Your new deputy shall be....
I've thought long and hard about our next deputy and considering our rugged times, this user's experience, and what support I think I am going to need in my time as leader, I believe that she will be able to help relax this project into a more relaxing space to work. PCA's new deputy shall be Paleclaw

As for my time as leader, I can promise you no perfection nor being able to solve problems, but I'll do my best. 02:56, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

"Thanks, Scarlet. I'll try my best to lead this project well. And Rainly is the best future-sw ever. She's telling me exactly what to write, and she's my favorite person on this wiki."

No really now. XD Thank you so much Scarlet. I hope I can be a good a deputy as you all are hoping. To be completely honest, I'm in complete shock and kinda freaking out. But I accept, and will do my best. *bows* <span style="border:2px dotted; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color:#4b3b6a; font-family:Cursive; background:#bdcdff; text-shadow:gray 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Pale Legs   ♪Be prepared...♪  03:15, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats to Scarlet and Paleclaw! 12:55, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats both Scarlet and Paleclaw! 8D 13:05, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats to both of you! ♫Purplemoon♪  2012! The end of the world?  14:40, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats, Scarletwind and Paleclaw! =) 15:09, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Wooh! Congratulations Scarletwind and Palelegs! <span style="">21:33 Thu Jan 19

Awesome guys. :D Good luck! Breeze whisker  21:34, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats you guys! You guys will be great leaders! ^^ Good Luck! 21:43, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations, good luck, and I know you'll do great! 22:02, January 19, 2012 (UTC) Shadewing

Awesome! Confratulations Scarletwind and Paleclaw! You'll be a great leader one day, Paleh. ;)  22:43, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I knew you'd get it, Pale! Congratulations to both of you! :D 23:01, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Good choice! Good luck. -- 00:06, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

You go Scarlet and Pale! <span style="">01:59, Fri, Jan, 20, 2012

Called it! <span style="">06:43 Fri Jan 20

Leader/Healer Waste Above the Ears
In the leader charart, there are always pixelated waste above the ears. It is a pain to remember to remove it, so I think we should go into the leader/healer blanks and remove them. Just saying. It would take less time removing waste. Sorry if you've already talked about this..... 09:59, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

If you know how to do it, please, by all means, fix it. Or, if someone else knows how, just do it. Honestly, it's annoying as all heck to try and get rid of those pixels. I miss 'em half the time. 18:30, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'll do it. 21:50, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ok I have removed all the waste from the leader and healer blanks. If you still find waste please let me know. I'll be glad to remove it ^^ Or you could do it if you wanted to xD. 22:10, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Leaving
Hey. I'm leaving the PCA. I'm losing interest to be honest. I rarely get images, what with being in England and timezones and whatnot, and I'm sort of getting bored with no art to do. I believe I've improved a lot, I just never get chance to show it anymore. I may come back later, and I hope I can still help out on the dA PCA Training. Thanks, 18:24, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Aww! *hugs* bai Leopard, you are like my unofficial mentor. I wish you could of stayed... =( 19:44, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Bye Leopard.. :( hope to see you soon. <span style="">01:00, Sat, Jan, 21, 2012

better whiskers for warriors.
i think that the PCA should tweak the whiskers on the warriors. in genarel, cats whiskers are long, and they droop a tiny bit. on the warriors they are just some short straight lines. i think that should be fixed. DragonStar ✯ 22:08, January 20, 2012 (UTC) dragonstar.

They're just whiskers, don't worry about it 23:07, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

If anything, the rogue whiskers should be fixed x3 <font face="Cambria" size="2" color="blue" >Sky- <font face="Cambria" size="2" color="blue"> Fightin 'gainst the Legolution  23:08, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Oakheart
Has anybody else noticed that all of Oakhearts images are different shades? Couldn't we tweak them all so they're the same shade? Just wanted to put that out there. 23:34, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

To keep it consistant, I would think so. The same thing with Loudbelly too. 03:38, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Blackstar six toes
It is said on the warriors app that blackstar has 6 toes on one of his back paws. On any of his images were the back paws are visible, should the pca add a extra toe?DragonStar ✯ power of the dragon! 20:02, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

I think they should, but I'm not really sure. 20:07, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. That would require all his images being tweaked. O3O