Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Family Tree Unnamed Parents
Okay I'm not sure if it's just one user or something, but someone keeps changing unnamed parents from male and female to both unknown genders. A discussion about it should have been brought up first. So for now, all changes should be reverted until this discussion is finished.

Anyways, why does their genders have to be not known? It's physically impossible to have two mothers or two fathers (the family trees display genetic relations, not fosters) I'm not anti anything, it's just that the family trees show genetic relations. And yes I'm aware of the fact there is transgenders, but really without medical intervention (by Twolegs, nonetheless) it's physically impossible for cats to switch genders. They are not a species that do this.

So, the discussion is should unnamed/unknown parents be listed as male and female, or both unnamed?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:46, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

these cats aren't just cats, they're essentially little furry humans (wasn't that said by an author too or am I just imagining things). gender isn't tied to yr parts, anyway. say there was an actual trans cat in the series (I wish...) wouldn't it be pretty crappy to call them male despite what they're presenting as. all in all I don't see how listing them as grey boxes is really that much of an issue, and in any case we could at least remove the unmentioned, not referenced at all parents (say fallowsong and sweetbriar's parents) to avoid at least some of this.

and I don't think it's purely genetical anyway? when was that even decided? some of those trees do indeed show foster kits. or at least they used to, anyway. (i think i remmeber brokenstar being on lizardstripes idk) 22:05, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

I say we remove uncited/non mentioned parents from the family templates, definitely.

Don't really have a set opinion on the other part. I do think it's reasonable to say every cat has a mother ('cause I mean, cats gotta get born somehow), but listing as a gray box anyway wouldn't be too much of an issue. I know that people can identify as something without physical alteration, so, one could switch genders without that still. though, I really doubt it'll actually ever get confirmed into the series, because of harpercollins

Honestly, we already use an unspecified gender for character articles, so if you ask me, it's fine with me just keeping it how it was changed to. (which tbh I will revert any and all changes to he/she instead of they lmao) They've been said to be little, furry humans by the authors multiple times, so in all honesty, it's actually better and not an assumption to keep the gender as unknown. Also Stealth, do not revert them. They are perfectly fine as they are and don't contradict any cited information. =/

I just think it should have been discussed first before making sudden changes is all. But yes I do agree that removing those parents that are never actually mentioned in the books is good. It'll at the very least make family trees coding and tweaking a little easier.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  08:26, May 24, 2017 (UTC)

Comments?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:56, June 3, 2017 (UTC)

Okay we will keep them as gray boxes. What about removing unknown parents? The ones that are on trees just to complete them but are never mentioned in books? Like Flashnose's and Daisytoe's parents, or Sweetbriar's and Fallowsong's parents. Or unnamed mates? Like Flashnose's mate or Frostfur's mate.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:44, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think we can remove the totally unknown mates without it looking weird, unless someone wants to alter the entire tree ig. as for the parents, is it possible to use the 'missing generations' thing maybe like what was done for cloudstars descendants or something? 15:31, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, not too sure about that. I've done a couple of trees with most mates gone, and it doesn't look too bad. I can only suggest for like Flashnose's and Daisytoe's parents that it is a single gray Unknown instead of two Unknowns. But yeah, I do think yours is a good suggestion if the missing mates are too weird.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:08, June 14, 2017 (UTC)

if that could be done with every tree without it being too much of a hassle, I'd definitely go fo it. I'd be happy with the one grey unknown too. 04:37, June 14, 2017 (UTC)

Hm, maybe we could do something like what was on... was it Windstar's tree? There was an "unknown" box with a gap? Could that work as well? ...or is that the same thing here and the point of what you did went over my head again?

I don't understand what you mean. Maybe show an example?Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:00, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

Jayce?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:29, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:47, July 10, 2017 (UTC)

Honestly I have the same opinion as David.

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:58, July 29, 2017 (UTC)

Foster Family Tree
So I think someone mentioned above we used to display foster family relations on trees. I'm wondering if we want to try to do that again. I'm pondering the different options on doing this, but I do believe it is possible for every character with a foster relation. So, what does everyone think?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:11, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Would it be a whole different tree or will it be added on the orginal tree? 02:21, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

That's part of this discussion.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  02:41, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

It would be more reasonable to make to separate trees, since there's situations were there's only one foster parent and it would be a little weird to have a stray boxes (the ones with the names in it) floating around, if you get what I'm saying. 02:45, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

I'm alright with it, but it does need to have already been cited on their articles first. Like, Lilyheart is Violetpaw's foster mother when she came to ThunderClan initially, but Snowbush wasn't their foster father, since there's nothing stating that nor did we see it in the books.

I did test family trees of Thunderstar foster family. A separate tree does seem to be best. (especially since I cannot figure out how to do those special dotted line that Brokenstar once had on Runningnose's tree :/) It'll be good if we are doing separate foster trees to put the different trees under different subheadings, like " ====Genetic Tree==== " and " ====Foster Tree==== "<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:48, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  02:00, June 16, 2017 (UTC)

I like those. =O The only question I have is this: will it be indicated somewhere on the template's page itself that the lines on certain boxes represent a fostered connection, not a direct blood connection? Like with Thunderstar, Acorn Fur, and Lightning Tail, for example.

I really tried hard to find a line, but the family tree template only supports the solid and dashed lines we already use. I went through every key on my keyboard and there is only two dotted lines keys that we could use, but those aren't enough to make a basic tree. We could do the mate lines, but we can also try the Template Chart, which is literally almost the same except you swap out 'familytree' with 'chart'. There is also some changes when it comes to keys for lines, but these are really uncommon lines we use.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:59, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

What does everyone want to do? Do the normal family tree lines, or have those trees switch to chart template (which is practically the same as the family tree template) and use the dotted lines for foster links.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:32, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

I'm cool with using the chart template - I've used it before, and it's pretty easy to work with so why not :)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:58, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

I would agree that the charart template is easy to work with and should be used in this situation.

I really like this idea. However, I think if we’re going to use it and use the chart template to do the dashed lines for foster relations (which I support, for sure), I think we should put the foster relations on the same tree as the genetic relations and differentiate them with the solid vs. dashed lines. Most genetic families only have one or two foster relations in them, so the foster tree would just be the exact same tree with a very slight modification, which would be really repetitive and unnecessary imo. 17:52, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure on that either. I mean, I did a test with Thunderstar and it could just become too difficult and messy. It'll just be easier to make foster trees.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:03, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, including foster siblings and/or parents in a tree is really cluttery and messy, given how large some of the trees are. I don't think it's a bad idea, but I also don't think anything would really benefit from this. We have them in the kin section, that should honestly be good enough <span style="">18:21, 7/25/2017

Character Ages
Y'know, this was a nice idea when it started, but I really think we should remove character ages from articles unless there is clear proof as to the passage of time. Let me use Cherryfall and Molewhisker as an example; their age cite is from The Fourth Apprentice, and that does not state their current age. I'm gonna be blunt, this series has very little in terms of consistent time passage, and I really think we should start removing all ages that cannot be 100% confirmed; such as a direct statement from Kate, Vicky, or within the series itself (such as someone saying "[name]kit is three moons old", or something like that. With each book, we experience more time, and these ages are also becoming outdated. I've removed some of the ones with expired cites (old books do not reveal anything other than them being born, and unless we have a solid confirmation [the timeline I guess can be used, but again, it's not totally 100% cited yet]), and I'm not even sure we should still have these.

And if you yell at me saying we're removing hard work, it's not like they can't be readded with a proper cite to back it up.

Not sure how much my opinion on this actually counts since I'm so inactive, buuuuut Jayce has a point. Half of these ages aren't accurate or aren't properly cited. I actually think it's impossible to find accurate ages for these characters...the series is way too inconsistent. Cats appear as full grown cats in one book and then in another book released later in the same time period, they're just being born. Even saying it's an approximation doesn't really excuse it imo; there's far too many conflicts. <span style="">12:56 Sun Jun 18

I agree with removing ages entirely for cats that have never had their age mentioned, but, if it has been stated, then I think it should be put as "[age]+ Moons" (eg. "Age: 48+ Moons) (unless it was stated as being 8 Moons once and now the cat is a warrior or something, then I think you should remove its age), because you can never be sure if time has passed since the stating of a character's age. Although, like Sootopolitan Berry, I have been inactive and, unlike Sootopolitan Berry, this is my first post on the Project Characters Talk Page (excluding my join request, of course!), so my opinion will, most likely, be unimportant. -- 16:32, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

I think that ages should be removed from characters who are still currently alive, as there's the passage of time still and all that. However, even if not direct proof, with a few double cites there are some ages that can be confirmed and so I think it might be smart to keep the ages of deceased characters on those pages until proven false.

I don't think they should be removed entirely. They should be revamped yes, but not removed. I've been working hard on the Timeline and most of the seasons are cited now. I made this suggestion earlier with Spookycat but I think maybe we can try an age template. Like, we tell the template a character was born at (referencing warriors timeline), Year=3, Season=1 (leafbare), Moon=3. It figures it out for us and for living cats, it compares to what time the series is currently at (Year=11, Season=2(newleaf), not sure about moon but I will definitely check if we do this) and we change what the 'current time' is when a new book in the series is released. For deceased characters, we tell what moon they died, like Year=3, Season=4(Leaf-fall), Moon=2. It's just a basic idea but it could work well. It's better than doing it ourselves, math can be so hard ><<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:07, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

there's a few kits and such that have the right ages (because they're dead) but more are wrong currently than right. those should be removed because they're incorrect, and any other wrong information would be removed immediately. people outside the wiki don't take much stock in the ages as it is because of how thye are right now. 22:11, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

I'm actually up for removing them from the still-living cats.. because the passage of time isn't always 100% clear in the books, and even context clues isn't always accurate. That's not saying your work isn't going unnoticed, Stealth. Trust me, I'm so happy with your progress on the timeline and I'm very impressed. It just doesn't seem right to have these ages shown on articles when many of them are incorrect. We remove all wrong information when we see it, so I don't see how this is much different...

Well, I think we should remove the ages from living cats for the time being (and perhaps some of the deceased characters too), since in a lot of cases it is false information. I think we could talk about re-adding them later if Stealth and the others finish up the timeline and get it properly cited. At that point, we could double cite the ages (to where they were born or their age was stated and the timeline page), and it would be easier to see if the ages were up to date referencing off the timeline. I understand if we decide to remove the ages completely because they're never going to be 100% accurate, but I think having the approximations is useful. 23:44, June 21, 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I don't like that the ages listed are not accurate either.

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:43, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

Well, I've looked further into the issue, and although I know a lot of people are for keeping the ages of the deceased characters, I want to question the practice of doing that as well. First off, many of the deceased characters were born during the Super Editions. But do we really know exactly how much time passed between them and the start of Into the Wild? The timeline (which, in that section, is not fully filled out or cited) shows that there's a little over two years between Bluestar giving up her kits and the start of ITW. But it fails to cite how it came to that conclusion – I know it wasn't from any evidence in BP itself, which only says that "many moons" or "countless seasons" have passed. I know it couldn't come from CP or TR either, which end well before ITW starts, and if you compare YS to BP the timeline doesn't really match up and shows ITW coming at least a year before it should.

Even with many characters whose lives don't span that time gap, it's questionable how legitimate their age cites are. For example, we often have to use logic to override direct cites in the book (case in point: how several books state that the Three were born in leaf-bare, when logically they would have been born in greenleaf). A lot of the other cites I've found are questionable at best, too. For example, Dustpelt's age cite links to page 15 of Into the Wild when Graystripe says that apprentices have to be at least six moons old. This does not show that Dustpelt was made an apprentice at six moons or that he just became an apprentice (he could have been one for several moons already). Even if the timeline of the series was consistent, it's very difficult to determine the exact moon a cat was born or their age was stated because the time terms used in the series are usually pretty vague. Often it just says a cat was born in "leaf-bare" (which could be any of the three moons) or people take "a few moons after leaf-fall" and decide it must mean the middle moon of leaf-bare. I know we put "approximately" before all the ages, but I don't think even that excuses people using things like the above to guess when the cats were born.

tldr; Because of the inconsistency of the series and the way time is represented, we're never going to get completely accurate ages and we're always going to have to resort to guessing and using "logic" to figure out ages. Since this is a wiki that likes to use solid factual evidence rather than guesswork and assumption to get its information, I think the best course of action would be to just remove the ages altogether. Sorry for writing this really long thing 17:33, July 9, 2017 (UTC)

Hi! I just joined this wiki, I used to be "outside" for a very long time and with my outside views I can tell you that the ages and the timeline we're EXTREMELY helpful and I loved them so much. Yes, I know much of it is inaccurate (like if your a geek like me and really look into it you find that Darkstripe was born to Tawnyspots, who was very sick at the end of BP, and Willowpelt, a new warrior. Since cats' gestation period is 2 months, according to the timeline, he was born at the earliest in Newleaf of 1YBF. He is 6 moons old at Leaf-fall, 3 moons before Firestar comes to the Forest. Some how in 3 moons he becomes a warrior AND trains Longtail ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). But there is a lot of info on it and I know outsiders really like it. Please consider this!!! Crestpaw123 (talk) 16:20, July 14, 2017 (UTC)

Hey so I just was bringing this up to Skye and I was going to make us a timeline to use as I re-read through each warriors book and also take notes of births, deaths, and description cites. So it'll take me a while but I'll get there! I'll probably link my sandbox when I start workin on it <span style="">02:49, 7/18/2017

That's very kind of you. Thankyou. Meanwhile, I've cited all books, events, births/deaths and etc on the Warriors Timeline. Unless someone still isn't sure, we can start using that now.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:08, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Even with the timelines, it's almost impossible to ensure that the ages are accurate. It's often only stated what season something happened in, not what exact moon, and if the information's not there in the books, we're just guessing at it. Passage of time often isn't fully worked out in the series, especially in time gaps (I'm pretty sure we don't know how long the SEs are set before Into the Wild). Also, it doesn't address the problem we have with living cats' ages becoming quickly outdated with new releases. 14:41, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you Ivy, but I also don't agree. Since that is why we put approx. in front of their ages. I think I vaguely remember that Su was working on a timeline as well and she had the stuff worked out very well, but after she was attacked her wikia was taken down and all was lost. I can try and ask her for it if she has like the vague stuff, but if she doesn't I won't bother her about it, since I'm working on my own and matching the cites within the pages. Stuff is usually off by like 1 or 2 moons anyway, since unless specifically stated when they were born and yadayada then we can't know for sure, but it's clear in context if you really stare at the sentence it is said long and hard enough.

Also, I have begun my timeline with The Sun Trail as the beginning book. I don't want to be called out on posting a link to my wikia here, but I wasn't sure if I could've posted it here or not, so I'll just post the link here: http://warriors-shattered.wikia.com/wiki/User:Lyokion/Sandbox I'll remove the link if it's not allowed. <span style="">00:42, 7/20/2017

Maybe you could create a sandbox as a subpage on your userpage. I also just want to remind everyone that sometimes the Erins do mess up and are not consistent in their time line, so we must take that into consideration. 01:25, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

I've been doing timeline notes for the dawn of the Clans as well. I'm not sure the time of birth of Gray Wing and that is valid really, the book never said he was born in the sunny season, just he lived in the sunny season. He could have been born in the winter season beforehand.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:00, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

I still think we should remove the ages for currently living cats (modern-era cats, not Dawn of the Clans cats), due to us currently having an active arc and future super edition to take into consideration. Remember, we don't know where Tigerheart's Shadow will fall, nor do we know how many more seasons A Vision of Shadows will show us. Once the arc is over and super edition released, perhaps then we can re-read and figure out exactly how many moons/seasons have passed.

It said he was still a kit in the sunny season and that he couldnt remember the last time the warm weather happened which means he was about 5-6 moons old at the time of greenleaf, and that means he was born in leafbare of that year. Like i said you have to really look at the context. <span style="">12:04, 7/20/2017

Winter, that's what I was trying to say -- the ages are not based on direct evidence, but rather on people trying to piece together different context clues to guess when events happened, and this requires some level of assumption to be made. Why on a wiki where you have to cite everything else with a direct statement from a book or an author do we allow speculation and assumption for these ages? When we're all about making sure we have well-founded information, why do we have ages that we admit are not 100% accurate by tacking an "approximately" before them? I mean, I personally like having the ages, but I just fail to see how they don't run contrary to our no-assumptions rule. 17:46, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

I mean you have a point there, but that's how it's always been? Idk how else to word it. <span style="">22:01, 7/20/2017

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:16, August 1, 2017 (UTC)

Shadepaw
In Secrets of the Clans page 45, it mentions a Shadepaw from RiverClan when the river floods. It seems to be Shadepelt (TPB), who was also a RiverClan cat and was an apprentice at the time but I'm not sure if that would be an assumption. Should the SotC section be added to Shadepelt (TPB) or should a new article be made for this Shadepaw? <span style="">14:01 Fri Jul 7

If there's no absolute evidence, then they need to be seperate. It feels like a bit of a stretch to me, and since SotC is pretty old, they might have meant for Shadepaw to be a one-time mention. Keep them seperate unless there's solid proof.

Well, if that's the case, then Silverpaw (TPB) should be treated the same way and have the Silverpaw that appears in Secrets of the Clans get a separate page. I kind of disagree with that, though, since Shadepaw and Silverpaw both appear in books at the exact same time the short story is set and it makes no sense whatsoever that the two apprentices wouldn't be the same ones that already exist at that time period. 14:30, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

I mean, we made Smokepaw (SotC) already because of a similar case of lack of proof, so I'd agree with making Shadepaw and Silverpaw extra pages.

I think Smokepaw is a different case, because there was no Smokepaw proven to be in ShadowClan at the time (Smokepaw (NP) died before that story, which we know because it's set at the lake and he died on the journey, while Smokefoot never had a cited apprentice name). Meanwhile, the story where Silverpaw and Shadepaw appear is set during Forest of Secrets, which is a book in which they appear. It doesn't make a lot of sense that the authors would create not one, but two new characters with the exact same names as characters already living at the same time. 15:19, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

I don't know it's like saying that the Leopardfur, Stonefur or Blackclaw from the same passage isn't Leopardstar, Stonefur or Blackclaw. It's around the same time period, everyone is in the right position for it, everything matches up.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:28, July 8, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:41, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Just realized I didn't say my own opinion on this, but I agree with you Stealthfire, I think it's fair to say that this Shadepaw is Shadepelt if we say that Blackclaw from one book is the same Blackclaw from another book. <span style="">15:52 Tue Jul 18

^^I agree with Stealthfire.

I have to back up Stealth here. 01:24, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

Agreed with Stealthfire here.

Cites
What should we do if we have cites that are broken links? Do we continue to keep the cites there, despite the broken links? I myself believe that the cite with a broken link should be removed, as there is no concrete / definite proof if the cite does no longer exist, but what does everyone else think? 01:30, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

Does this mean facebook pages that are cited but no longer exist? If so then I agree that they should be removed, since a broken link is like having no cite at all. <span style="">06:55 Thu Jul 20

I do agree broken links should be removed. It's just frustrating that I did see these facebook posts myself and for some reason they just disappeared. Sometimes I think we should take screenshots for cites instead :/<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:01, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

When it comes to Facebook, please make sure to have someone else verify that the cite has indeed vanished before removing it. If someone in the string of comments is a user you have blocked (or if they blocked you), then you are unable to see the entire story. We don't need information removed due to one person not being able to see the cite, but others can. Kate's blog, however, is an entirely different story. Make sure that the page just hasn't been moved before removing the cite entirely; Kate's blog underwent multiple updates since some of the information has been added, just as a head's up.

If we do decide to remove all broken links from each project (not just PC, so we stay consistent and all), we're gonna lose a pretty big section of Official Sites because readingwarriors.com is down...So while I support removing most broken links, I kinda think we'd be okay with keeping the ones that are well documented. (aka the ones that aren't like trivia, but more cites from broken HarperCollins pages and catalog things and such)

Icy wants to know if "we had to put possible broken cites on the talk page before we removed them" <span style="">23:10, 7/20/2017

I think that would actually be a good idea. I've seen this happen before; I went to check a cite, but it wouldn't work. It turns out someone in the comment string had me blocked, meaning I was unable to see it. It's good to have someone else (or even multiple people) double-check a Facebook cite first, especially given how their blocking system works. Might be a bit of extra work, but honestly? If asking someone else to double-check is that big of an issue, then we have a problem.

An example of a broken cite is this. (Long link I think.) Can someone double check that? And if it is not, should we remove that? 00:31, July 22, 2017 (UTC)

Broken for me <span style="">18:18, 7/25/2017

I see cites that lead to the page in tons of pages. Like, half of the Vicky's Facebook cites that aren't Su's cites lead to broken links like that one.

"Full-grown"
Ok so I just have a quick question here that I need to have a community consensus answer on (at least it would make me feel better). I've looked it up and according to many sources, a fully grown cat is 1 year old. I just need some thoughts from everyone else if we can come to a conclusion, because if so, then I can calculate their ages better <span style="">22:59, 7/20/2017

The same goes for dogs too, (I know this is about cats) and you're right, almost everything about cats says they are adults at one year. 23:12, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

Actually, I just read that larger breeds take more time to grow, so some cats reach adulthood at around 2-4 years? I don't know if it's a reliable source or not, just throwing it out there. :) 23:26, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

General rule of thumb is cats are teenagers at 6 months, adults at 1 year and middle age at 10 years (grow old at middle age??? that sad :'<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:22, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

considering there's very few cats of an actual breed in this series, (only rose, lily, and tyr come to mind) I think the general age of one is fine. 17:48, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

DF Cats
This will be very controversial because the answer I am going to get is, "Su said this, so it is confirmed." Except please bear with me because although I am well aware Su said this, Vicky never confirmed it. While keeping this in mind, there was a point in time that Vicky had specifically said that Su was her helper for answering questions, and she was not canonical. Bringing that up, we also must remember that Vicky said the missing kits were not canon because these were her suggestions. Although that may not refer to every question she answers, it is an example that some of them are not canon. We also have Vicky saying, and I quote, "I cannot make decisions for the whole series as that wouldn't be fair to the others." And, once more, quoting her, "But to go back and insist that things are canon when they didn't appear in the original books is above my pay grade, sadly. I hope you understand." The post in general refers to the missing kits, but also these quotes from Vicky are very broad and refer to Su answering questions as a whole.

All right, so that aside, I want to bring up the DF cats, such as Brightflower and a few others. Yes, once more, they were said to be in the DF by someone. But we must remember this is Su, and not a writer of the books these cats were in, which I am inclined to rely more on. The reasons and explanations for the places these cats go are not reliable and do not make any sense. We have Brightflower, who went because she was driven with grief and hate. If so, why is Ashfur not in the Dark Forest as well? I am someone with a mental illness, and I do not have a favorable liking to a lot of people. Does that mean I go to hell? I am not sure if that was a good example, but going on. We have another cat (I cannot remember her name) who is crippled like Briarlight, but could not accept her fate. How in a logical way does this get her in the DF? We read that cats that go to the Dark Forest because they commit crimes when they are dead. In the books, we are never given any proof that these cats commit crimes, and when questions are asked, we never get answers as well. We are also told that "it is a secret". How can we take that as a cite? I get that Su helps Vicky, I get that completely. But she is not an author. She is not the writer of the books.

Vicky contradicts herself and Su several times. She has also said that these are Su's suggestions. There is nothing confirming that she herself agrees with this and approves of it. Quoting Vicky again, "Also, please, please remember that this is all speculative; nothing that is discussed after a book comes out can be set in stone, so don’t rush to conclusions about what I was thinking when I created a particular character or scene. I know the Dark Forest cats have stirred up a maelstrom of emotions. There are a million reasons why a cat is sent to the Dark Forest, and they can’t possibly be summed up in a single line. I would love to have the time and opportunity to write novellas explaining the history of every single cat that we have put in the Dark Forest, but that’s not going to happen, unfortunately."

Also, another quote. "If you feel that a reason we have suggested doesn’t feel right, that’s only a good thing. Perhaps you have a better understanding of that character than we do. Feel free to make your own suggestions! I really do feel that once I have finished with a book and sent it on its way, then the story and characters belong to you as well, and whatever conclusions you might draw from reading are as valid as mine or anyone else’s." She specifically says conclusions, and that they are valid as hers or anyone else's. Does that mean my conclusions are also valid? Can I add them to the Wiki? I do not think so, and that is the case here.

Long post is over. I understand that this is a controversial topic, so I ask all of you to please think about what you say before you comment, but I ask that you do. This is a confusing subject that should have been talked thoroughly before anything was done. 17:38, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

Missed something. Another quote, "But I promise she is almost always right!" Almost right =/= always right. 17:43, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

One thing I want to add that has bothered me forever is Marshcloud. He's literally an allegiance-only character, never seen in any books besides one mistake in a preview. How did Su come to the conclusion that he's in the DF? Like you stated above, almost always doesn't mean always.

Agreed with Danny. ^^

I disagree with removing these cites. Firstly, I think in any case shouldn't just pick and choose, so that whole cite (including the star cites) would have to go if we're just not counting the DF part. Secondly, this is where Su says: 'Yes. I asked her where the cats are because I can't just put them where I want to Especially the Dark Forest ones.' Su says that she asked Vicky because she can't just put them where she wants to. This isn't just Su just coming to fan conclusions imo - she asked Vicky where to put them, and put down what the author said. Even on the original comment where she posts her answer, she says that she had to check with Vicky before so she didn't slip up. I get that Su's word alone isn't like an author's post-death confirmation, but in this case, I really do believe that these were straight from Vicky, just through Su's mouthpiece.

I see the points from both sides on this, honestly, because I think the evidence itself is contradictory. I do think the information comes from or at least was checked Vicky, based on Su's comments. But even so, Vicky kind of walks back on the information (I'll link the post here) by calling the post-death residences "speculative", and we don't use speculation, even that which originates from the authors. And if Vicky says readers can make their own conclusions about where a cat went, then she's basically saying these conclusions she has just made aren't completely canonical. At the same time, it's worth remembering that this post was made after backlash (however, we did get rid of Missing Kits based on something said after backlash, but that statement explicity said they weren't canon, while this only implies such). Finally, I completely agree with Spooky we also have to get rid of the StarClan cites if we do the DF ones, they're from the same post. 20:58, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

Ivy, I am backing up your point because of the evidence you have provided. And in this case (I was not aware of the StarClan cats) they should be removed as well. 22:07, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

I would like to elaborate more on my prior comment, I posted it from my phone and of course, it would have spacing issues. I want to point out the timeline in this as well - the DF cats were the first thing revealed, and all of the links I have posted occured after. But yes, I was unaware that the StarClan cats had images as well. I agree that these cites also must go if we are removing the DF ones. 22:12, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

Promise this is my last comment in a row. Here are the links (not in chronological order, sorry, I do not have the time for that right now): link 1 link 2 link 3 link 4 link 5 link 6. 23:55, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

We voted and agreed to use her. If you want to backtrack on a year's worth of work, that's on your head, not mine. Especially because of this message, especially the second screenshot. Vicky outright says that if something Su says is not correct or quite right, Vicky will jump in to correct her. I am very much against this.

These messages are from 2016, almost a complete year ago in August. Vicky contradicted them in February. She changed her stance, from what I have seen. 00:14, July 22, 2017 (UTC)

Popping in to say, if it's ruled that Vicky changed her stance on the very validity of Su over time, then does this just apply to this one cite? Or will it affect all of Su's cites? It would seem logical in that way, because we shouldn't pick and choose what to say she changed her opinion on and what she didn't. But imo all of them still count, but if it is decided otherwise, then I think they all should go.

I agree with all that's been said above, including Spooky's last statement (as that was just what I was coming here to say). If everything is "speculative" and not set in stone, then we need to doubt all of Su's word, so technically everything she has ever said could be considered non-canon. <span style="">12:02, 7/22/2017

Icy, all of the links you provided only address two things: The Dark Forest cats and the Missing Kits segments. We have already removed the Missing Kits information, and we can remove the Dark Forest ones as well. But none of Vicky's comments address any of the other information Su has given us. Her words cannot be used for what she has not said. My message from Vicky still stands and has not been contradicted, unlike what you claim. Vicky has only said things on the Missing Kits segments and the placement of the Dark Forest cats. Nothing else. You have nothing that says any of Su's other information is wrong.

I never said that I wanted to remove all of her information. There is absolutely nothing in this post about rejoicing all of her information, just the DF cats. I am glad you agreee on that. 15:14, July 22, 2017 (UTC)