Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

=Discussion=

Badgerpaw - Badgerfang?
K, I know probably no one's read it yet, but after Badgerpaw's death, they refer to him as Badgerfang, at least more than once. Would this be enough to have him renamed as Badgerfang? 00:33, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Oooooooh, would that mean he gets a warrior image as well? xD That would be amazing. Anyways, if he's //called// Badgerfang, then I don't see why not. As long as it can be cited... and I used the browse inside and found at least three mentions. That's good enough for me.

Sorry, but I don't think that that's enough, he never had a ceremony, and it was basically a nickname. If we did that, then we might as well make Heathertail a leader charart and categorize her as a leader, from the game she was playing when she was an apprentice. Sorry, but that's my opinion. =3 00:42, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Now that I'm finished reading the book, I think his page should be renamed, after his death they only call him Badgerfang. 21:54, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

That still doesn't make it more than an honored nickname. Badgerpaw died an apprentice, technically still a kit. Unless he was seen in StarClan as a warrior and there he answers to the name Badgerfang or something, I wouldn't change his page name. 22:39, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

I say no as well. There was no ceremony; Flintfang only called him Badgerfang after he died. Just because Yellowfang (wow, a lot of -fangs here) called him Badgerfang does not mean that it is his official name. It was done to honour him. 02:59, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Flintfang does say, however, that he gave him his warrior name before he died. It doesn't say a nickname, or anything of the sort. It actually says his warrior name.

Well I haven't read it to really understand the situation enough, but if it really did say what cloudy said, then I'd fully support making that his name. 18:59, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, so what the heck would his rank be after that? I don't believe he was ever made an official warrior, even if he got a new name, however he did get the name. And currently he has a switch template between kit and apprentice, since he was still kit age. So would he have a switch between warrior and kit then? Or all three? o.o 19:15, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

I read that part today, and I fully believe that he should be considered a warrior. A medicine cat's word is about as law-abiding as a leader or deputy, and Flintfang asked her if it was ok, in which she replied that it was, and no cat questioned them. I think that even Brokenstar nodded his head in agreement. 23:16, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think that he could be renamed so that he is 'Badgerfang', but I'm not sure about the image situation. 01:14, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

If he would get the page renamed then I think he deserves a warrior image. x3 04:34, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well after thinking this through a bit, I think he definitely should get a warrior image if we're changing his pagename and listing him with a warrior name. The question is, he was still a kit, not even apprentice age, so what should be done about his switch template he has now? Should it switch between kit and warrior? 18:56, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure a switch between a kit and warrior would be best. 00:30, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Sooo, what's going on with this, guys? Have we come to a conclusion?

I think so... 05:21, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced. You guys, we've read the full details of Badgerpaw's death. I know Vicky said to trust the SE's over the Field Guides, but nothing in the SE really contradicts what we saw of Badgerpaw's death in Code of the Clans. Flintfang didn't give him a dying apprentice ceremony. All we know is that Badgerpaw told his mentor that he wanted to be called Badgerfang in StarClan and then he immediately died. And, from what we can see in Yellowfang's Secret, Flintfang honors that wish and calls him Badgerfang, but that still doesn't mean he was a warrior. He never completed his training and he did not have a dying apprentice or warrior ceremony as far as we've seen. I'm fine with listing him with Badgerfang as an unofficial post-death honored nickname, but I don't think the page name should be changed or that a warrior charart should be made. 16:46, December 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, in terms of the warrior image: the warrior blanks clearly show an adult cat, which Badgerpaw was not. 16:47, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

But it doesn't change the fact that Yellowfang acknowledged the name, as did Brokenstar, I believe. A medicine cat's word means just as much as a leader's does, at least in the Clans it does.

Also in terms of images, the apprentice blank also shows a 6 moon+ cat (looks more like 9 or so to me honestly...), which Badgerpaw certainly was not also... .-. 12:11, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

I would just like to call it as I see it here; just want to throw my 2 cents in so we can get this wrapped up. I think Flintfang maybe sent him to StarClan after having done some form of a "dying apprentice ceremony", as Bluestar did on Brightpaw/Lostface. Only there was no leader present. (If I remember correctly Where's Code of the Clans when you need it ) The title of the CotC section is also called the smallest warrior, but I doubt that means anything =/ Yes, he's definetly too young for an image; the images do show full-grown cats. But Yellowfang and Flintfang both called him Badgerfang.

And if we were to rename the page, why not have a redirect page? There's an idea. Or at least, a decent one. 03:27, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

No, in The Smallest Warrior Flintfang did not perform any ceremony. 03:29, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

However he said in YS (I believe. I haven't actually read the book) that he gave him the name Badgerfang before he went to StarClan. And that he went to StarClan as a warrior. Both of those things clearly contradict CotC. So we can't just go by what CotC says, since there is a contradiction. I'm not sure which we should go by, but you can't say it didn't happen cause we didn't see it in CotC, since clearly Flintfang's saying things happened that we didn't see. 21:28, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

All he says is he gave Badgerpaw the name. Not that he performed any ceremony. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced we should present it as anything more than a nickname that was honoured by a couple of cats. Nothing in Yellowfang's Secret contradicts CotC. And on the next page after Flintfang says this, Brokenstar says "That's a shame he would have made a great warrior", meaning he wasn't a warrior. Even though Brokenstar acknowledges the name, or at least he doesn't correct Yellowfang when she calls Badgerpaw by it, he still doesn't regard Badgerpaw as a warrior. 23:00, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that warrior name does not necessarily mean warrior. Rainfur had a warrior name, but he was a rogue. Pricklenose did, too. You could even say elders count for having a warrior name but not being one. I think he could just be considered an apprentice that has the name of Badgerfang since that's clearly what he was called. Not every apprentice has to have "paw" at the end of their name to be one. Boulder is a prime example, and even if he is a SkyClan cat, so is Egg. 21:48, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Making Assumptions for the Status Template?
Recently, I've noticed that many characters have deceased, suspected StarClan member on their status template, even though, for many, their deaths were never seen or mentioned. They just stopped showing up. It's perfectly possible that they didn't die. I know it's been a long time between Yellowfang's Secret/Crookedstar's Promise/Bluestar's Prophecy and The Last Hope, but who knows? A cat might have left the Clan to become a kittypet. My cat lived to be eighteen, and I know some domestic cats can live even longer, so a warrior could definitely still be alive.

(I don't know if this is going to be really, really long, but I've made a complete list of every character this applies to because it needs to be done eventually: Beetlenose, Birdsong, Brackenfoot, Brightflower, Brownpaw, Cedarpelt, Dawncloud, Dawnbright, Deerfoot, Echomist, Fallowtail, Featherstorm, Frogleap, Fuzzypelt, Grasskit (CP), Lakeshine, Mallowtail, Morningflower, Mudclaw (SC), Newtspeck, Nutwhisker, Ottersplash, Owlfur, Petaldust, Piketooth, Poolcloud, Pricklekit (RC), Reedfeather, Reedtail, Rippleclaw, Robinwing (TC), Rowanberry, Scorchwind, Sedgecreek, Shimmerpelt, Skyheart, Snowkit (OS), Softwing, Stumpytail, Sunfish, Tangleburr, Timberfur, Toadskip, Vixenkit, Voleclaw, Wetfoot, Windflight, and Wolfstep.)

Now that^ is a long list and it needs to be fixed. Oh, and please forgive if there's any errors or missing characters in that list, or if they really have died; I just went through their articles to see if a cause of death had been mentioned.

I think it's safe to assume that the Field Guide cats are long dead, but what about these cats? It's very possible that they could still be alive. I think they should be listed as status unknown until any evidence of death can be found. Thoughts? 09:14, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with removing it and adding status unknown, just like you said, anything could have happened. x3 12:27, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

This I agree with. It's said by one of the Erins, that only ThunderClan gets a full list within the main arcs, Firestar's Quest, and Bluestar's Prophecy. I think it was also said that there are many more cats than what's shown in the allegiances of a book, but we don't see them due to them being minor characters, and not enough time to include them all.

Yeah, guys, I thought we had this discussion already. Besides, look at ThunderClan, the Clan of the long-lived, invicible warriors. It's totally possible these cats could be alive (though I doubt Birdsong would still be alive, but we can't assume) 16:00, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we should change it, while a few of them like the cats seen in Yellowfang's Secret and Crookedstar's Promise probally aren't alive, thier death's were never mentioned so we don't know for sure. 20:04, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

Have we come to a conclusion on this?

I believe so. 09:16, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Russetfur - Kittypet?
I think this is where I post this... So I was looking over Yellowfang's Secret a bit, and on page 144 (where Red and Boulder come to join ShadowClan) Red says, "We're not kittpets! Both our mothers caught their own prey on the streets of Twolegplace. We would never live with housefolk!" I know we have her listed as a kittypet because of what Yellowpaw said, but wasn't that just her assuming? In my opinion, I don't think she should be listed as one, or have a charart for it. 23:27, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I've been thinking about this, too, and I agree that she shouldn't have a charart or the rank. 23:30, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

She, Marmalade, and Pixie were specifically called kittypets on page 96 of Yellowfang's Secret. It doesn't matter if they didn't act like it. They were /called/ it, and it was those three in particular. See here. Ignore the fact I searched for Jay. It's easy to find that page by searching for her. It doesn't matter if she doesn't act like one, nor her past. She was called a kittypet. Therefore, she gets cited as such. Yellowpaw didn't call her a kittypet...that was the narrator. o.o

I think she denied it because if she told ShadowClan that she was a kittypet, they probably wouldn't have even accepted her. Look at the comments they made about Featherstorm and her kits, some of the elders didn't even want them apprenticed! At least a rouge or a loner, probably in their opinion, could fit into Clan life easier. I don't blame her for lying, and she should still have her kittypet image. 00:59, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and I thought it was Yellowfang... My bad .3. And with the lying, we don't really know if she did that. How can we tell when it's just in text? Though I did think that at first, since Scorchwind accused her of it. Though I do see your point, Cloudy. We should go with what she was first seen/called as. 03:13, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

I still think that we should go by what she said, Red/Russetfur specifically said that she was not a kittypet, so I don't think she could get the rank or charart, but, I guess it could go either way. -shrugs- 22:34, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

Kind of flip-flopping sides here... So basically the question is, do we go with the narrator or Red's word.. I still believe that she should be listed as a rogue, though. Even if she was cited as a kittypet first. Shouldn't we go with what Russetfur said about herself? 23:52, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

You know, we could have both. Just because the narrator called her one, and she called herself something else, doesn't make the narrator quote wrong. Perhaps she left her kittypet life behind or something? It's very possible... she might have been /lying/ just because she didn't want to come across as weak.

Do you mean we can cite her as both? (sorry, bit confused) And sure it might be possible that she left her kittypet life behind, but we don't know that. And we can't tell if she was lying, it never said anything about that. For all we know, Red was telling the truth about what she said with never being kitty-pets. 17:51, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Cite her as both a kittypet and a rogue/loner/whatever she called herself. It's very possible that she may have left her old life behind. She was called a kittypet by the narration in the books. Which does (as I've said) specifically call Red, Marmalade, and Pixie kittypets. Note it's those three in particular, and none of the other cats around, which on the next page, there were, and it was also said that it was a group of kittypets and rogues.

Ok, well, do you think Ravenpaw would have called himself a rogue? I think it was Graystripe or someone who told Firestar's kits that he was a rogue, if she doesn't get the kittypet rank and image, neither do any other cats who were mentioned in passing as another rank. Even if she wasn't, it was still an author's mistake and should be noted. 07:54, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

That was Sandstorm, Ivy. You're talking about A Clan in Need, correct? And I agree with that. Ravenpaw was a loner. That's clear as day, both by the book definition and what the context says. Calling him a rogue was an error. Vicky writes the storylines for the graphic novels, I believe...so, that was an obvious error on her part.

Page for The Captain?
Woo for restarting discussions! OK, so I brought this up awhile ago and it was archived, due to being a dead discussion, now I'm bringing it back. He was very major in Escape from the Forest and he's about as major as Sol's Twoleg. So, what do you think? x3 22:34, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

I think he should get a page. He is a character, and quite a major one in Escape from the Forest, so yes, I agree with you. 01:17 Fri Nov 16

As I said before. I totally agree. If he's as major as Sol's Twoleg, then of course. Ken and Jean got pages too, and I think only Ken is the real important one, if memory serves.

CBV List Needed or Not?
OK, so this was also brought up awhile ago, by Sweet, and I don't know. Do we really need the CBV list? It hasn't been used since I've been a member of the project and it's just sitting there, but on the other hand, it could be quite useful if we started using it again. Comments? 22:34, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

I don't even know what the real function of the CBV list is, honestly. Didn't Moon make it because it made things easier for her or something? I dunno. I'm not even sure if we need it... I know 'teldy doesn't use it.

It was made for nominations overload (also known as summer), so that nominations could be archived without having to go to vote and the leads would just go to the CBV list to put up votes. I just think it gets extremely tedious for an unnecessary step in the voting process. 23:25, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ice and Snake - Jumper and Hoot?
I'm not totally sure about this since I don't actually have the mangas...but should their pages be renamed to their former names? They call themselves Jumper and Hoot in...The Heart of a Warrior, I believe, and make no return to Ice and Snake that I've heard of. Wouldn't this mean it's their current names? Sorry if I missed somethign and am wasting your time   23:23, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

...I brought this up /months/ ago and no one said anything. e.e It's about time someone else said something about this. I have the Ravenpaw's Path novels, and they are called, in their last appearances, Jumper and Hoot, not Snake and Ice. I think their names should be changed.

I agree that their names should be changed, after all, they are called Jumper and Hoot in their last appearence. owo 00:35, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

So, what's going on with this?

Paleh's gone insane
Please don't kill me. ;w; Just getting them all out of the way at once....

Moving Spoiler Tag above descriptions
This has been discussed multiple times, and there's never really been a proper conclusion. Just archived for being up too long. Sooo here goes again. What do you guys think, should we move the spoiler tag up on all articles so we don't have to worry about spoilers in the description ever again? And if not, I also wanted to suggest that we find a place to put spoiler descriptions, as things like Brightheart's injuries do need a place to be cited, otherwise we're missing a lot of description about her and have nowhere to elaborate on what her scars and injuries look like. Personally I think we should just move the tag. It's more trouble having it there than it's worth, and it'll also help so nobody can complain about the chararts being above the tag and having spoilers (Briarlight). 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Really quickly, not stating my personal opinion, but stating another option is something like CHBW is doing: like on Nemesis' page, and removing the spoilers altogether. 00:28, December 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ooh something like that^(what CHBW is doing) would be awesome, though it might be a bit annoying after a while. x3 00:31, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah it'd probably get a bit annoying after a while having it on /every/ page, however that is something that might be useful to have... perhaps for new books that come out, and major characters in those books. 00:38, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea, it seems great. -no more to add because she is a derp- 01:48 Sun Dec 2

Perhaps we should do something like CHBW for the characters of a brand new book for a while after the book is released and for characters with major spoilers in their descriptions or chararts (Briarlight). Then for the rest of the pages move the spoiler tag to the top, because having the CHBW thing (I have no clue what to call it) on every page would be annoying for anybody just trying to browse through random pages, especially if it's a character who the spoiler tag works fine for because of no major spoilers in the description. 03:18, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Paleh, we need spoiler tags moved and places to put things like Brightheart's injuries or Briarlight's broken lower spine or whatever. I like this.  03:44 Sunday December 2 2012

Perhaps I didn't explain my option very well. I don't mean to have that option and the spoiler tags. What I intend for it to do is replace the spoiler tags and only be used when a new book comes out. We'll get rid of the spoiler tags as the books have been out for several years/months now so it ought not be a surprise that there are spoilers. Also, that type of spoiler only works about three times if I remember correctly. Maybe only twice, so you won't have to fight it constantly when trying to edit that page. If we're moving the spoilers to the top of the page on every page, why not just remove them and just have spoiler warnings (more noticeable ones for that matter too) for when new books come out? 03:57, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think either idea could work. We could either move the spoiler tags to the tops of the pages or use the thing on the other wiki. However, when it comes to only using it for newer books... I'd have to disagree there. A lot of users do come on here without having read the entire series. I've met more than one person in the chat that hasn't even finished the first arc yet and are here to look up something they missed in the books that they did read. So, to them, pretty much every page has spoilers. Heck, even Kit hasn't gotten past the Power of Three arc yet. Something about hating Long Shadows. Anyhoo, that's my opinion on the subject. I think Teldy's thing might work, but only if it's on every page, and for the sake of convenience I'm leaning more towards just moving the spoiler tag up. 20:13, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Fluffy kits, stubby tails
Think this might have been discussed before, but I'm not sure. Should we really list if a cat's longhaired (fluffy) if they were described like that as a kit? Almost all kits have fluffy kit fur, and I'm not sure it's good proof that they're longhaired as an adult. Same goes for stubby tails as kits (though I think most of these have been removed). Almost all kits have at least moderately stubby tails, and they may not be stubby as an adult. What do you guys think? 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should remove 'stubby tail' from kit's descriptions. Using my cat as an example, because we got her when she was very, very young, she had quite a stubby tail, and now it's filled out and that. So yeah, I think we should emove the whole stubby tail thing. o3o 01:51 Sun Dec 2

I am in agreement with Berry and Paleh. And if kits (I'm using an example from Yellowfang's Secret, Chapter 1) have small paws, or small ears, that should be removed. Kits are young. They aren't fully developed cats yet. The stubby tail and floofeh fur thing, etc. ... shouldn't be added to descriptions.  03:47 Sunday December 2 2012

I'm agreeing with this as well. I think it might have been Ivy that said it, not sure, but with the stubby tails, pretty much all kittens have that, since they're not fully grown yet. And I can testify to that fact; my dad once had a cat, that as a kitten, had an extremely stubby tail. Then it ended up growing and becoming fairly long. .o.

Agreed; all kits have stubby tails and fluffy fur unless stated otherwise. 23:22, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Agreeing with everyone else. 23:32, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Kestrelflight's description
In the cite we have for Kestrelflight's description, Vicky clearly states she made it up on the spot. Since it hasn't been mentioned in book anywhere, should it really be used as his official description? I mean it is from vicky, and we haven't really had anything contradict it, but she did make it up on the spot. Thoughts? 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. If an author (not just Vicky) makes it up on the spot, that's not really legit, is it? But Kestrelflight is included in allegiances. The allegiances of at least Sign of the Moon and The Forgotten Warrior (I'm too lazy to check a ton of allegiances lists) describe him as a "mottled gray tom" and that's it. So a mottled gray tom is his description, if you ask me. But that is a source to contradict what Vicky says. 03:52 Sunday December 2 2012

If it's from one of the authors and they say nowhere 'I think' then I think that it should be counted as valid proof, most likely almost all of the questions we ask them are made up on the spot by them. 03:46, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Mmmm *nods* That's kinda what I was leaning towards Ducky. It didn't say "I think" anywhere, and it was from Vicky. 09:31, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

An author is an author..doesn't matter who says it...but, I think that perhaps we should use the description he's called more often as his main, which would be the mottled gray description, I believe. We did that with Mapleshade.

Cloudy... unless I'm totally misunderstanding you your contradicting yourself. We used the tortoiseshell description for Mapleshade, which is what Vicky gave us, and the ginger and white as her alt. which is what she's commonly described as. Anyways, I'm going to agree with Duck, if there's no 'I think' then it should be counted as the offical description. 02:09, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well cloudy, as I tried to say before in another discussion, his mottled gray alt is kind of just a partial description, not so much a contradiction. 03:40, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

No, I just said that a description is a description. We switched Mapleshade's because it was used far more often. Kestrel's main one is used once, and that's when Vicky said it, as far as I know. I'm not even sure what to do about it. What I meant, was that we used the one that was more common, and it was a coincidence that it was used first.

Official art pattern specifications
I can guess what most of your opinions will be on this, but it doesn't hurt to bring it up. Should we allow cites from things such as the manga or CotC for pelt pattern specifications. Such as Longtail being a pointed tabby, and things of the sort. It's just a clarification of what type of tabby (or tortie or whatever else you can think of) they are. It doesn't contradict it. Tabby types are also almost never described in the book. Only once has that ever happened. So this would really help add on to the descriptions and give a clearer image of the character for readers. So should we allow cites from there? 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

It's somewhat of an opinion based cite, especially since you're basing your opinion off of the illustrators opinion of what the cat looks like. Plus, for mangas at least, the illustrator has the relatively same style for all tabby cats so I don't think it would necessarily be accurate, of course that doesn't stop me from people basing their chararts off of the manga or CotC. 23:22, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Unofficial mentors specification
I think we should really clarify what does and doesn't count as an unofficial mentor. Like with Brackenfur, who was in a way mentored by Firestar. Or Willowshine or was partially mentored by Leafpool. I think we really need somewhere that clearly states what qualifies being listed as a real unofficial mentor. Not sure where to do that, or what, maybe the guidelines, just thought I'd suggest it. 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I mean, let's say a cat gets a thorn in their paw and the MC tells them to stay off it and not train their apprentice and some other cat takes them out for the day, I don't think that should count, but if they have something major that they have contributed to their education, then yes, they should be an unofficial mentor, in my eyes. 01:57, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Ivy and Paleh. Firestar was a major part of Brackenfur's education, even with Cinderpelt. If some cat teaches another how to catch a bird, that's it, that's not an unofficial mentor. If they train (or help train) an apprentice for a while, I think that counts as an unofficial mentor. And for the guidelines idea, I think that would be better, especially for newer users.

 03:58 Sunday December 2 2012

The problem with that definition, though, is that many times, especially with siblings, apprentices and their mentors train together throughout nearly their entire apprenticeships, like Dovewing and Ivypool, so much that they almost learn skills equally from both mentors. But Cinderheart is not Dovewing's mentor, and Lionblaze is not Ivypool's. It would probably work better if it was more along the lines of they are considered unofficial mentors if they official mentor is absent or lacking in something, which would work for Brackenfur and Willowshine. 04:13, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Graypool toggle
Really not sure what would happen in this kind of case, so here we go. Graypool's described as both light and dark. Each has been mentioned once and only once. Dark was first and therefore the proper used description, but technically light's been stated just as many times. So should she be given a toggle? 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say so. That reminds me, I believe that Lilykit needs a toggle, too. 01:58, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree as well. I also think that Sootfur should have a toggle as well, since he's been described as black, gray-black, and light gray. Each of them have been used multiple times. At least three times in Twilight, that I know of. Plus the multiple mentions elsewhere.

I think the toggle would be best. Light, dark, light gray, dark gray... toggle. It's not like she was called dark twice but light thrice or anything that implies that she is one over the other. And if Lilykit and Sootfur need a toggle, I think we should go for it.

04:01 Sunday December 2 2012

I think all three should get a toggle. If they're called the wrong description the same amount of times as the right one, or in Sootfur's case quite a few times, then they should get one. 04:11, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Official guidelines for descriptions
This is long overdue and has also been discussed quite a few times. Proper rules and clarifications need to be added to the project guidelines about what should and should not go into a description. Things such as the obvious "What counts as an alt?", and also things like whether age should be listed or not, or things like saying a cat's heavy, or has soft eyes. I'm not here to figure out what those guidelines should be, I really have no idea, I'll let you guys discuss and decide. I'm just saying they need to be decided on and added to the project guidelines.

Also, on the topic of descriptions, I kinda think it might be good to have alternate descriptions (the ones that would need a toggle) listed up by the main description. Like...

Mapleshade is a ragged,[4] large,[5] sturdy,[6] thick-furred[7] tortoiseshell-and-white she-cat[5] with a fluffy white tail,[8] a white muzzle,[9] a scarred head,[10] thorn-sharp claws,[7] soft,[11] sleek,[12] matted fur,[7] sharp, yellow teeth,[13] and amber eyes.[5] She is also commonly described as a ginger and white she-cat with a white tail.

Or something along those lines. Now I would think we would only do it for Majorly different descriptions such as Mapleshade, not minor ones like ^Graypool^. If the description's common enough to have the image up at the top, why shouldn't the actual text description also be at the top? 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think this would be better (and, as I've said before, it would benefit the newer users) because, (this is me, referring back to the Fluffy kits, stubby tails section:) if a cat is a warrior, and they are mentioned to have small paws, or small ears, or soft fur, or whatever, that counts. But with kits, it should be different, so I think that would be better to have some sort of guidelines for each cat's description. And the "She is also commonly described as a ginger and white she-cat with a white tail." would be better, too, instead of just plopping it in trivia. Or, if we wanted to keep that in trivia, (if we organized trivia like Paleh suggested) we could put it somewhere.

 13:45 Sunday December 2 2012

Mentor reassignment ceremonies
I originally planned to ask this in PB for the chapter pages, but I think it might be suited more here. Why are new mentor ceremonies (like when Dustpelt was assigned Darkstripe as his mentor) ever listed on pages? They're ceremonies all the same, even if they don't change rank. I can't seem to think of any reason why they shouldn't be listed, so should we start doing them, or is there a reason not to that I haven't figured out? 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I can't believe we didn't already figure out this. Even if they don't change rank, they actually sorta do. Warrior to mentor, even though it isn't official. It should be listed, more than just, "Mentor(s): Redtail [1], Darkstripe [5]". And I agree that this should also be added to stuff in PB, like chapter subpages. Then after we decide what to do here, we can move this along to PB.

 04:06 Sunday December 2 2012

Show/hide toggle for family sections
You know, the more I browse around pages, the more I realize how ridiculously long some family sections are. Hey kind clutter up the page a bit. I think it might be a good idea to have a show and hide button for them, like below.

What do you guys think? 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe not on pages like Fallen Leaves, but holy crap, like Sorreltail's page (I think), what new user who is just looking through the page would want to scroll through all of that just for the quotes and citations. Given, they can click that link at the top, but it'd just be easier if they could hide the family if they don't want to see it. 02:00, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea. Just overly long family sections are overwheming if I want to add a quote or something. Like, Yellowfang's family isn't that bad, but cats like Tawnypelt have tons of cousins, and we should have a show/hide toggle bar for some cats.  04:09 Sunday December 2 2012

Would we include the family trees in the toggle or not? Anyways I think that it's a great idea. 14:49, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Mm probably. 05:43, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea to me. It would shorten the pages a bit, and for ones like Ferncloud, Tawnypelt, and Sorreltail, who have extremely large families, this would be very useful.

Family Tree names
Me and a few other people have been confused about this for a while, why are the family trees named the way they are? There seems to be no pattern, and half of them don't make sense. I think they should be named after the character(s) at the top of the tree personally. 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I have been confused (and still am) with these family tree names. Some of the trees are lame-o little, and easy to guess, but others are weird. And maybe the top of the tree thing would work, but wouldn't that make the Wind tree super-huge, if we did that (that's just an example)? I agree with the renaming of some trees, but the top of the tree idea... not sure. But it's not like that's our only idea we can use. Maybe we can come up with something.

 04:13 Sunday December 2 2012

I think most of the trees are fine, they list the most important/most well-known cat in the tree. But I think a few, like the P3 Kits Tree could be renamed to better suit the family. owo 02:27, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Trivia
Got a few suggestions about trivia...

First off, what do you guys think of possibly breaking up the trivia into two sections, errors and fun facts (doesn't have to be named that, I just mean the things that aren't errors, like who the cat was named after, whether they have other clans' blood, etc.)? I guess it's not really all that important, but it might be nice to have it split up.

Second, I think we should combine all the trivia about what blood a cat had into one bullet point, rather than having one for each type of blood. Might also be good to do for description mistakes, but I'm not sure. We already combine the same description mistake into one bullet, so it might not be needed to combine them all. Definitely think the blood one should be though.

Lastly, how come we don't list in the trivia when a cat has an unnatural description, but we list it when there's a male tortoiseshell? Should we start listing when a cat's description is unnatural, or should we just get rid of the trivia on the tortoiseshell's pages? I don't think just one or the other should be listed. 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, but I agree with you, it'd be better to break it up into mistakes and fun facts, including interesting tidbits that the Erins themselves have stated. I think we should denote when a pelt pattern is unnatural. I was the one who added the male tortoiseshell, but it's an interesting fact, and so is an unnatural description. 02:03, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think the trivia splitting-up wouldn't be half bad. Especially if you want to confirm something for something (I dunno) it would be easier to just have it all neatly organized for you, like, blood-relations here, fun/interesting facts there, and (yippee!) other stuff in that spot. I think we should always note if a cat has an unnatural description, beyond just the male tortoiseshell hoo-rah, because that's sort of important, especially with mating and that business.

 04:18 Sunday December 2 2012

Honestly I think that the trivia is fine how it is, I don't think it really needs to be split-up. Also, I think on some articles the blood is on one line, but yes I support having that on one bullet-point, and the unnatural pelt descriptions I think we should add them in. owo 02:34, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with Duck on this one, and say that it's fine how it is. We should have the blood on one line and the unnatural pelt descriptions should be added in though. 04:40, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Multiple speakers in main quotes
Just wondering, is there a specific reason we can't have multiple speaker quotes as the main quote, or is it just cause it was never coded to have multiple speakers? Cause that can easily be fixed, and I kinda think it'd be nice to give that option if there's not reason not to other than the coding. 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I still think we should go with the one speaker main quote. That way the blue main quote bubble won't be huge, and it will be easy to find the important quote (since that would be the only one there). But, that's only my opinion. 04:21 Sunday December 2 2012

I think it wouldn't be half bad to have the multiple speaker quotes as the main quote, I was actually wondering on this awhile ago, some quotes really show a characters personality, but in order to get the point of the quote you need to see what another cat says, and some of those quotes would be better for main quotes. =3 02:38, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

I honestly don't know why we don't have that option. It shouldn't be that hard to tweak the template for the main quote. Multiple times, I've found that something more than one character had a part in saying would have made a great quote, but we really couldn't use it.

It detracts from the main character the quote is suppose to describe. You can always use the "[...]" to avoid having another character butting in. 23:22, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

But Teldy, in some cases you need both character's quotes to make it work. Like for example, this quote on Ferncloud's page.

Ferncloud: "Ashfur? Be careful." Ashfur: "Don't forget I've outrun a dog pack before." Ferncloud: "You had me at your side then." Ashfur: "And now I have you and your kits to protect. I won't let you down."

I personally think that'd be a really good main quote for either of them. (but if you disagree, let's just use it as an example, Ok?) But you can't just take one line out of it and use it. You need the full quote between the two of them. Other characters butting in isn't the problem, the problem is other characters having something to say that should be included in the quote. I really think we should just go ahead and add the coding to the main quote template and make it an option. 21:23, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Minor Character page
Now I can't seem to find the archive with this discussion, so forgive me for not remembering the outcome. What happened to that whole really minor character page? Like, we were gonna make a whole page with characters too minor for their own page, but deserve somewhere for information to be listed, like Dappletail's kits and such. I seem to remember most everybody agreeing on it, but no page was ever made. 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should do pages like that, too minor to be listed as a official 'character.' But, we would have to make it like a special page, like with a somewhat altered layout to make it work, in my opinion. Because one huge page with every single 'minor character' with their information would sorta be cluttered and weird, if you ask me.

04:24 Sunday December 2 2012

I supported this before, and I still do. We're an encyclopedia for the Warriors series, we should therefore document every single character's appearances, not just those who, for example, are named; Dappletail's kit, Sol's siblings , Nightwhisper's brothers and sisters, they all deserve to have their appearances placed somewhere other than the named character's page. This idea is perfect, and I totally support it. But I don't think we should use the charcat box - that'd be chaotic. .3. 09:41 Mon Dec 3

If we were to do this, how would we go about grading it? Like a normal article? Because whomever nominates it will probably have to own all the books that they're mentioned in.

I'd say so. Just like normal. It's no different than someone nominating, say, Firestar's article, who's been in every book. They'd need all the books too. 00:12, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

New Family Template?
Was messing around and made a template that might be useful. Example here. It's not like essential or anything, just something to make things a bit quicker and easier if you wanna use it. 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Are you talking the See More part? 'cause if you are, I like that, and say we use it. xD

Huh? No, the template I used in that example. :b Lets you be able to do <BR> <BR>instead of <BR> :Firestar:  <BR>It's just something that may make things a bit quicker, kinda like the R template does. 03:45, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ehhh, okay, the family template isn't bad, but then we ought to merge the status template with it. 23:22, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Erm, why? o.o Then we'd have to change all the current family sections out. This way it's optional, just something to make things a bit quicker. It works alongside the status template fine... I really don't see why you'd merge them. Plus, there was no way to make this work easily (that I could figure out) for characters without pages without making you have to type just as much. 21:17, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Pronouns on characters without genders
This isn't all that important, just curious, what's the standard way we're supposed to use pronouns on genderless character's pages? (s/he, they....) 00:17, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Considering that "s/he", in my honest opinion, seems a tad unprofessional as it symbolizes uncertainty in the history itself, I think we should go with "they" as a pronoun for genderless characters' pages. -- Sta rry  00:50, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

'They', 'they're' and 'their' seems the better option. Seems more professional and anyway, 's/he' looks like a typo of 'she' to me lol. <span style="">05:12 Mon Dec 3

I agree with Berry on that note. xD S/he looks...really unprofessional. ._. I tried to add "they" once, and ended up getting told that was the "unprofessional" way...yet using "s/he" looks just plain stupid.

I agree that "s/he" looks pretty stupid, but the cats are singular and "they" is a plural word. I think if you really want to look professional, completely typing out "he or she" is the way to go. 22:33, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

"They" sounds good to me. x3 15:00, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Except I have to agree with Breezey that "they" is a plural pronoun and is grammatically incorrect. However, I don't quite agree that completely typing out "he or she" would make it even more professional. In any case, why not use "it" and balance it between the character's name and that pronoun? "It" is a gender-neutral pronoun and it would be grammatically correct as the pronoun is singular. 17:26, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Raggedstar: Minor or Supporting?
After the events of Yellowfang's Secret, Raggedstar was definetly more "in the mix", and was seen a lot in the book. I realize that he is probably categorized as a minor character since he barely appears in the other books, mainly the field guides, with a mention once or twice in the Original Series. But you saw how in this book he went from kit to leader, found out who his father was, fought in battles, raised Brokentail, and a lot of other things. He spent a lot of time with Yellowfang, who was the main focus of the entire book. So since I'm not very experienced at this, I thought I'd bring it up for the rest of the project to think about. .Sunnytail (talk) 05:02, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think he'd be a supporting character... minor would be more along the lines of, say, Wolfstep or a cat of that nature. Raggedstar played a large part in Yellowfang's Secret, but, not enough of a role to consider him major, I think. Or, maybe he is a major character. His role in YS was pretty drastic...

I think he was pretty central in the YS plot. Even after his death the main character wouldn't shut up about him. And his presence was a driving force in the plot. I think Brightflower is more supporting with Raggedstar and Brokenstar being major. 21:01, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

I believe Raggedstar would count as a major character. He may not have appeared much in the other books, yet his appearance in Yellowfang's Secret had important ties to the main plot and was introduced often in the book itself, along with a few minor appearances in the other books. -- S t  a  r  r  y  ~angelfase~  20:39, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Dark Forest Category
So, yeah. I was creeping and noticed this category. I was wondering, should cats like Tigerstar, Hawkfrost, and Mapleshade really be included in that category anymore, since they're..well..no longer there? They're gone, so they can hardly be considered Dark Forest cats anymore, I'd think.

I think that we should leave it, because they were Dark Forest cats at one point of time, so they should still have the category on their pages. owo 22:24, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

It's the same reason Bramblestar got the Dark Forest Visitor category taken off his page when his name changed. Bramblestar never appeared in the Dark Forest. Tigerstar, Mapleshade, and Hawkfrost, though dead, are still regarded by the same names they had when they were part of the Dark Forest. It's all in the name, I think, not in the current state of being. Though I think we could have a category for cats with no afterlife residence, like Scourge, Tadpole, and Tigerstar. 01:48, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm in the middle on this. Take Graystripe for example; he was tagged as a kittypet/loner in the past books, but the categories appear to have remained. If the Dark Forest cats were once Dark Forest cats, they should probably keep the category tagged- but I also believe we should make a no afterlife residence, like Shelly suggested. -- S t  a  r  r  y  ~angelfase~  20:37, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

SkyClan Ancestors
Dunno if this goes here...but I was just wondering why there isn't a SkyClan ancestor category? They're seperate, I believe, and there's a category for StarClan cats and Tribe of Endless Hunting cats. Just wondering. 01:20, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Well, technically they're a faction of StarClan separated by space, are they not? SkyClan is still a Clan, they just live away from the other Clans. SkyClan's ancestors and StarClan reunited in Firestar's Quest and still mingle often. Leafstar got stalked by Spottedleaf just as much as Firestar did, if I remember SkyClan's Destiny correctly. 01:43, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Hi!
Hi, can I join the PC? I have a bunch of Super Edition books I've got yesterday, so maybe I could expand the character pages. =3 13:48, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Of course you can! Welcome! Please read the FAQ and the Guidelines. =) 15:51, December 29, 2012 (UTC) =Nominations=

Nutwhisker ~ Silver Nomination
Okay... I've always liked Nutwhisker and I need to be more active in this project. <span style="">00:43 Friday November 30 2012

The history needs major expansion, he was quite a major character. owo 01:46, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Add a couple more quotes, if possible. Also see if there's a better one to describe his personality a little more to use as a main quote.

Still working? 03:50, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Indeedy. <span style="">23:27 Thursday December 6 2012

Have the quotes been added and has the history been expanded? 03:14, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, but this has been up for over three weeks, as stated in the guidelines, is the limit for nominations, so this is declined, feel free to re-post later. x3 01:03, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

Deerleap ~ Silver Nomination
<insert comment about the detail of the history and that there's a fair few quotes here> <span style="">08:30 Tue Dec 4

Possibly narrow down the quotes to about four, there's quite a few. 13:49, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I think the history could be expanded, in the last of her history she's still a warrior, when she made appearences as an elder, if I remember correctly. 22:03, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Still working on this?

May I take over if Berry's not working? 03:57, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well.. Since it's been around a week I went ahead and started expanding her history, I also took off a quote, leaving her with five, including the main one. I'll finish the history soon. 08:49, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

The history could still be expanded to when she's an elder, but if you're still finishing it up, excuse this comment, please. Good job. =) 14:53, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

There, I've finally gotten around to finishing her history. I haven't had the chance to sit down and do it recently. It should be fully expanded now. 06:12, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

CBV? Wonderful work. 17:44, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but reading through the history, it has copious grammar issues with commas, sentence fragments, etc. Just go through the history briefly and check. 23:51, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Scorchwind: Silver Nomination
I'm sure it needs some more expanding, but I did a lot of work on it today, and majorly expanded + detailed the history. .Sunnytail (talk) 03:44, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, expand the history some more, and possibly narrow down the quotes to about four, the ones that show his personality best, please. Good job! =D 03:49, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Took out a quote or two + added some more to history. I'm going to work on detailing next. Thanks! .Sunnytail (talk) 04:15, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

I finished detailing it and I think it looks pretty good c: there isn't much about him, since he's not a main focus of the story. 05:01, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Can you expand it anymore? 03:16, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'll look in the book again, but I'm pretty sure I said basically everything. He was a very minor character. 05:11, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Well, try adding some detail about what he was doing, or perhaps about the general scenario. For being Raggedstar's brother, there /should/ be a little more detail.

Still working? 14:51, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Agh, sorry, I've been.... not around much, I'm afraid. I'll work more tonight. 16:50, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Silverflame ~ Silver Nomination
Her name is such a unique name. I think the article is pretty detailed for someone like her.

Is there another quote, that suits her? I adore that name. =D  14:56, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Added a couple more~

Can you detail the last paragraph in her history? -- S t  a  r  r  y  ~angelfase~  20:11, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

I tried. Can't detail what's not really mentioned a whole lot.

CBV? Great job! =) 17:43, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Toadskip - Silver Nomination
Nettlespot and Poolcloud must get in a bunch of fights over him. xD Comments? 18:04, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Any other quotes?

I added the only other one that I thought showed his personality. x3 17:51, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Blizzardwing ~ Silver Nomination
I've expanded his history to the maximum. -- S t  a  r  r  y  ~angelfase~  01:38, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Anymore quotes? 21:27, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Added another one -- S t  a  r  r  y  ~angelfase~  21:34, December 30, 2012 (UTC)