Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Non-Clan Leader Blanks
I was talking with a few users in Discord and they suggested I bring this up here. The non-Clan leaders are pretty much the cats that lead their little rogue/loner groups, I suggest a blank for the Non-Clan leaders. Since they technically get a rank of being leader but aren't actually Clans I think it'd be a great idea to have a blank fit for them. The leaders that would more or less count for this would be like Darktail, Harley, Jingo, etc. I don't really think BloodClan would considering they were referred as a Clan in the books. Thoughts? 09:15, February 13, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there's really a reason to give them a different blank. There really isn't much difference from a Clan leader besides the nine lives, and even then Nightstar and Mothpelt were leader with one life. Stoneteller has a blank because that role is a medcat and leader hybrid. 9:43 Wed Feb 13 2019

i still think at the most it should be a somewhat minor tweak of the current ones if anything at all. another idea (that would be pc's jurisdiction) would be adding clan leader as the thing in the infobox, instead of just leader as it is now. 09:58, February 13, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think they'd need a different blank. It's sort of like making blanks for clan queens and non-clan queens, which would be pretty unnecessary.

Agreeing with Fox and Breezey here. Another blank is not necessary. Those cats are still technically seen as leaders, even if they don't have nine lives. 18:18, February 13, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed with above. They're not all that different from clan leaders in terms of role. 14:10, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

I think it's unnecessary for them to have separate blanks. In the end, they're all leaders, whether they have nine lives, or are in a Clan or not. 14:31, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

Maybe not another blank but maybe a tweak to their art to show their non-clan like Da ud said earlier. 16:13, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

I think we should tweak the current one to show some difference; there is a notable difference between Clan leaders and other leaders. It isn't quite just the nine lives, it's the rules they live by, their duties, how they act - all of which makes them so much different from cats like Jumper and Fog.

We could definitely tweak them.... but we also made a cotp blank for fewer cats than we have cited as non-clan leaders. So really I have no preference to how we go about this. 18:25, 02/15/2019

I agree there, that's why I brought this up. A blank was even made for the rank of mediator and CotP and I think non-clan leaders would count too. 18:52, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

I think we should have a non-clan leader blank, but I think it should just be slightly tweaked,  maby a new blank in a simalar position? ❈ Love is Love, forever! ❈ =^.,.^= 22:18, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

Kinda divided but since this stalled... any other comments before a vote on whether to make a tweaked version or no?

I honestly think it'd be a waste seeing as a big defining difference between non-Clan leaders and Clan leaders, from what I remember, is their faith (the whole nine lives thing) - which isn't a physical thing. A leader is a leader honestly - seeing as they do the same things. 21:33 Thu Feb 28 2019

I'm going to agree with Max. There is zero difference, and leaders are leaders, non-Clan or Clan. 00:56, March 4, 2019 (UTC)

I do feel there is a difference between Clan leaders and non-Clan leaders. For one, the nine lives. The other thing is the Clans are very rigid with their rules. They don't switch leaders like The Ancients did, and they have strict rules on who is next in line and the warrior code also demands loyalty to their leaders. Other leaders do not really have that.

Although I don't think a whole new blank is necessary. Perhaps just a tweaked version of the leader blank? Like we did with the old healer blank.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:00, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

I think tweaking the blank would be good enough. Anymore comments?

16:16, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

If we're tweaking the blank, which I still don't think is necessary, I want to do it. 17:37 Sun Mar 24 2019

I don't think tweaking or adding a new blank is necessary. To be honest, I don't think the non-Clan leaders should be given a leader blank at all since they're really just rogues, but they've already been given art so I can't really speak much about that. But, like previous statements are said, non-Clan leaders are just leaders of a different group of cats, but they aren't physically different or do any different tasks. How would the blank even be tweaked to represent non-Clan cats without changing it entirely? If it's only going to be tweaked slightly, then I think that it's more work to do that for a small number of cats than to just leave the art as it is now. 19:25 Sun Mar 24

Agreed with Splook.^^ 22:26, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with tweaking the blank. I do think non-Clan leaders should still be given the leader blank, they are still leaders of their groups, but I don't think they should have their own separate one. It just seems unnecessary to go through the whole tweaking/making a new blank process when in the end, they are all just leaders of their groups, guiding the cats around them. Any other comments? 16:38, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Alternate Charart Section
Some characters, like Tawnypelt have so many alts that the gallery looks a little clunky and disorganized. Perhaps we should have a separate gallery for the alts? This way the chararts look more organized. It might also be helpful to have all the non-alts in one section for visual purposes. Thoughts?

I like this idea! Half the time, I look at the art for a quick glance, and I think the wrong one is what the really look like! I 100% support this. Welcome, to a world  of wonder,  and beauty!  Now follow me,  into the light!  04:50, February 20, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm all for it. Especially for cats like Brackenfur and Bluestar, too. Sometimes all those alts together can be quite an eyesore. 05:00, February 20, 2019 (UTC)

absolutely since mistakes are so prominent in this stupid series 09:17, February 20, 2019 (UTC)

Would this work?

Could also just reorder the images so the same alts are together. 11:20 Wed Feb 20 2019

I think that might end up looking messy for characters with a lot of different mistakes throughout the series, and it might get trickier to organize if that is the case.

for extreme cases like Tawnypelt and stuff, sure, but not if they only have an alt or two; just in the interest of section counts it'd be good to just do it for those that need it imo

any other comments?

Not really good at coding or anything, but would it be possible to put them into seperate tabs within the gallery? 21:13, February 28, 2019 (UTC)

hmmm tabs?

Ooh yes, I do like the look of those. 19:12, March 3, 2019 (UTC)

Yes that tabs would work great! Tawnypelt is getting so long and confusing ><Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:01, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

Any more comments?

16:17, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

Popping in here to say I agree and that Tawnypelt, Bluestar, Sol and others could use this. 22:46, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

i worry those tabs might not work for some people, as evidenced by the attempt at official art tabs

Is there any specific reports of what people are having trouble with? It might be something fixable. On another wiki I was on I had to custom make a new tab system cause of some kind of issues on different devices or something (I can't remember the specifics), and it ended up working fine after that.

Unsure if this is helpful but here is the attempt at integrating the tabs: [//warriors.fandom.com/index.php?title=Firestar%2FMain_article&diff=1351841&oldid=1351364 https://warriors.fandom.com/index.php?title=Firestar%2FMain_article&diff=1351841&oldid=1351364]

Unfortunately I don't have a screenshot of what I saw but basically the page wouldn't load and kept on refreshing itself. The gallery itself wouldn't show either. Maybe it has something to do with tabs being in a tab

Comments? 16:38, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Minor Characters Images
I'm loving all these chararts we are adding for the minor characters pages, but I'm noticing a problem regarding characters we cannot give a blank to. If you check Omen of the Stars page, I've been filling in The Fourth Apprentice and I'm not even done yet, and there are so many characters we cannot give a blank to.

So I'm wondering if we can find alternatives to these characters, instead of cluttering the pages with Noimage.png. For example, perhaps with Clan cats we can give them their Clan's symbol?

Spooky also mentioned a new blank (yay more!) where it's a general adult cat blank for cats we have no idea of their rank, but still have a description. The Super editions page is a great example. There is so many on there we have no idea their rank (or even Clan) and so we cannot give them a blank, despite having a description.

What do you think?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:14, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how I think about a generic blank...I think it's not too far off to just give them a blank closest to what they might be. Not a rank, that's PC, but saying a Clan cat gets a warrior blank if unknown, Tribe gets a cave-guard, etc. would work. 10:54 Mon Mar 11 2019

Could we just use the unknown residence blank when one gets approved? But in my opinion, as Breezey said just using a warrior blank, or cave-guard would work better. 18:15, March 11, 2019 (UTC

could a new ¨unknown rank¨ blank workWillowstep21 (talk) 14:02, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

I mean personally I don't think these characters have to get images, but if it's agreed that they should, I think whiskey's idea sounded good. I guess in case we would just vote on which blank would be considered "standard" in certain cases?

I don't think we should use pre-existing blanks for characters that don't have a cited rank. By using the warrior blank, it appears as if we're assuming that some Clan cat is a warrior when the character could just as well be an apprentice, queen, or elder for all the information that's in the book. Making one of these blanks "standard" distorts the actual meaning of the blank and would likely be misleading for readers who don't know all the reasoning behind the choice. I don't think it's necessary to give these characters images anyway because of how minor they are, but if we did I'd favor using an "unknown" blank instead. 19:50, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

Mean to get to this sooner, but I agree with what's said above ^. I personally don't think it's necessary to give the unknown rank minor characters images, and we already have much to do regardless. 19:56, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

Hmm I'd imo an "unknown" blank/adult cat blank could be used; ofc after all of this and probably in like 2020 at this point but rip

Yeah I don't think assuming a rank will work it'll just create confusion.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:18, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, let's not assume ranks. That's a problem we've had before... If we entertain the topic, it really should be after everything else is done... which that's going to take a while as it is. ​​

If we plan on giving these characters images, they should be given their own blank rather than assuming ranks. Right now, I think we have enough on our plates, but perhaps we can bring it up again in the future when we're less swamped. 16:25, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I agree we can't do a new blank right now. What about using clan images? There are so many cats we have no description of so cannot give a blank, would giving them their Clan's image be a good substitute?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:49, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think we should give them any blank. It's a huge assumption about their rank, so unless these characters are featured in the future, I say no for the moment. 00:51, April 14, 2019 (UTC)

It's still an assumption to give them Clan images, even if it's just a substitute. I think it would be better to wait until we have time to just make them their own. 16:46, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Alt Image Cites
So lately I've noticed a lot of alt images going uncited because it's usually clear what they're for (mostly for the official art or family tree alts), so the cites don't get prioritized and end up either slipping through the cracks or taking a really long time to actually get on the page. Since PCA has always had a policy of requiring cites for images, I feel like these shouldn't be any different. In the past, cites were required before the image could even be reserved, but considering the family tree and official art alts are voted on beforehand, maybe it should just be the alt's artist that's ultimately responsible for adding the cite if it's not already there by the time they post the image.

And while we're on the topic of alts, I actually had a suggestion. So despite the incorrect description being listed in the trivia section, for a lot of character it's not always clear which alt is for which mistake/cite, especially for characters with a lot of alts like bluestar, tawnypelt, firestar, and so on. I feel like a nice solution to this would be to add the description of the mistake along with the cite to the image's description. You can see an example of this in my personal image's description. If the alt had more than one cite, as is the case for some common mistakes like brackenfur, all the relevant cites would be added, the same way they are in the trivia section. This should make it a lot easier to tell what the alts are for, not only for the readers of the wiki but also for us, especially when trying to figure out if an alt is still required/valid, and whether it's in the same set as another alt. Thoughts?

I agree with this. I've removed an alt once because it had no cite for it and it almost became an argument until I was told what it was for. Please add a cite before reserving/posting an image!<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:20, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that, because even I lose track of what's what anymore. There are too many alts on the wiki anymore;;; ​​​

Agreed^ Any other comments? 16:46, April 1, 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps any comments on the specific wording that should be used in the image descriptions? That would be helpful.

If I get what you're talking about.. Maybe it should say "Brackenfur was mistakenly called [pelt color] in [book name]'. I've seen a similar style to this on the Stacyplays wiki, where if there is a character mistake they list the episode the mistake was in. 16:26, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

Any other comments? The concept passes through consensus as of now; and we can throw the wording issue at PC for properness.

Date for redoing the warriors/kits
^ List of conflicts so far, from the discussions:

Saturdays - Jayce

Last week of March - Silver

Any weekday is questionable as a lot of us have school

Thoughts?

I mean if we're listing conflicts users have, my computer is in for repair for the next two weeks at least, so I'm not able to do any images.

My IB exams start from May 9-23, so I'd prefer if we didn't start the warriors/kits then.

I don't really have a conflict per se, but I'm going to be working 50+ hours in a few weeks starting in April, so I won't have much time <span style="">11:09, 3/19/2019

i wont be able to do charart on the weekendsWillowstep12 (talk) 13:20, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, there are so many warriors and kits I don't think conflicts will do any harm. People might not get their no. 1 choice, but there are plenty to do and plenty of OA images.

I think we nominate and promote three or four more leads and after the noms close out get started. <span style="">14:08 Thu Mar 21 2019

Unpopular opinion incoming.. I don't think we can realistically account for everyone in terms of dates. Looking at this, week days are technically unavailable, and also weekends, the entirety of May, and April. The redo date will extend far beyond the initial date anyway and will open many opportunities for those who didn't get their first choice. And, as Breezey said, we have many images to do so conflicts aren't that huge. Personally I think April/May are good months to start these, or as per Breezey, nominate and promote more people and begin these.

I second all of this, and actually have been mulling about it for a while. We can try our best, but we can’t possibly account for everyone and we need to pick a date and start the warriors/kits. I think sometime in April would be great. 17:37, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

I am probably going to get shot for this suggestion... but perhaps wait until after everyone is done with their school things..so end of May/June? We have Lost Stars and Path of a Warrior to also work on, along with the elder blanks. That's more than enough for now, and it gives people a chance to rest from being so burnt out from the kittypets and leaders. I'm afraid that if we push this too early, it's going to result in some issues with people just being so tired. ​

Hm, I actually think that’s a good idea. We should finish the elders, and the two new books, take a two week break, and then start warriors/kits. by that time i would think it would be the end of may, which sounds fine to me.

20:18, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Jayce and Ari. We also have the minor characters to do though? Unless we’re tossing those in with redos? <span style="">20:46, 03/21/2019

i personally support that we start doing the warriors in may/june– ap exams in may ew. also, are we doing the elders first? 23:16, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

If anything it'd be June since that's when summer break begins. If we're doing the elders early though.. wouldn't that defeat the purpose of pushing back all the warriors/kits?

i personally think we should redo the blanks as they were approved but thats just my onion <span style="">23:43, 3/21/2019

I'm all for the v late May/June; school is an issue tbh and I'm kinda oddly drained still from the massive rush of KPs/leaders

I agree with late May/June, because school has taken over my life, and I'm not ready to dive into the massive pit that is the warriors/kits so soon. Plus breaks and weekends don't really work until then. r ♥  <span style="style" title="will i ever be more than i&lt;span data-rte-entity=">' ve always been" data-rte-attribs=" style title=will i ever be more than i've always been"&gt;waving through <span style="style" title="cuz i&lt;span data-rte-entity=">' m tap, tap, tappin on the glass" data-rte-attribs=" style title=cuz i'm tap, tap, tappin on the glass"&gt;a window <02:15, 3/22/2019> ​

I mean June would be one of the worst months for me if anything....that’s our last month of school so it’ll be packed and busy with finals. May would be better. I’d prefer early May or early July, but June overall is busy for me. 03:16, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

May is probably the worst month for most of us still in school, but then again, we can't account for everyone. Perhaps it needs to come down to a vote on the month.. then possibly date. Also, what is happening with the elders? Do we do those immediately or after a batch of warriors/kits?

dont see why we cant just do the lost stars lot first including the elders since thats what people will want to see then idk some other whatever date for the rest 08:12, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

i like snowdapple's ideaWillowstep12 (talk) 13:56, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

I have no preference on the month as long as one is picked lol. I do agree with Ferk and David that we should do the lost stars bunch and minor characters when the book comes out, and hold off the rest for the summer. 15:46, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

(unpopular opinion warning) im fine with starting with the new lost star characters in april then once everyone done with that wave then do the rest in sections by arcs (ex. may- tpb june-tnp july-pot) Willowstep12 (talk) 16:10, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Hm, I say right now we should finish up the rest of the mc that are available. Then we should take a 1 week break or so. Depending on what time that happens we can start working on the ls lot and maybe even elders. Then we can start the warriors and kits in late may or early june?

12:04, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

I support doing the elders along with the Lost Stars characters

honestly i dont see a problem with starting with the elders once the vote is over– i dont rly see a point in pushing it back imo, it just piles the things we need to do on top of each other 14:06, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

have no preference for when we should begin kits and warriors, so long as we have a little break. If the beginning of summer works for most, thats cool. I have no problem with starting elders, anytime works for me. 16:17, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

yeah summer for the two huge ones please, and then LS/elders whenever tbh

I'm free anyday for these. And sure, I'm fine starting whenever. 22:45, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

just got a big schedule form. having tests on may and june, as im preparing for the most important examination i'd take in my life. we should just do em in april along with lost stars. --

08:43, 3/27/2019

Won't really matter when for me, I have classes in the summer anyways lol, so my activity wont really be improving any time soon. <span style="">15:05 Wed Mar 27

I support doing the kits and warriors in the summer. 17:23, March 30, 2019 (UTC)

June 1?

June 1st sounds good! And I support warriors/kits in the summer. (It's the perfect time to improve my art skills too.) 23:08, April 5, 2019 (UTC)

June 1 is good. I have a big holiday party that monthb --

14:02, 4/07/2019

Tortoiseshell color ruling
Alright, so as per this I believe we should do the same as we did for the tabbies and nuke this "tortoiseshell cats have to be black and ginger" rule. It's really limiting all of our artwork possiblities, and really in general, just making most of the tortoiseshells that we have art for look the same. I'm not saying any of the art is bad, no, so don't take me wrong on it. It's just that I feel any tortoiseshell should be any color you want it to be.

And no, I'm not talking about nuking the no white rule (sorry jayce :P )

TL;DR, nuke the tortoiseshell has to be ginger and black rule, and let people make dilute, torbie, chocolates, or blue torts if they want to. <span style="">11:48, 3/30/2019

Isn't there already freedom to do so? There are many smoke torties and chocolate torties around I believe.

My point is that a lot of people think there is a rule, so we should make it official that people can have the freedom they want to do the color torts they please. Paleh was saying to add ginger onto that image, and I disagreed, thus starting this. <span style="">11:56, 3/30/2019

Tortoiseshell colored cats are by definition a form of black and a form of red. That can be black and red, brown and red, blue and cream, lilac and cream, and any amount of white or pointed. Coloring a tortie just a black base or just a black base is like coloring a blue tabby red. I'm not opposed to not caring if there is more than one shade of black or red in an image, but there should at least be those two present. <span style="">14:17 Sat Mar 30 2019

brown is a form of red, so finch's charart is valid and doesn't need any other form of ginger or cream. <span style="">14:44, 3/30/2019

theres never been a hard rule on it having to be ginger ans black unless said in the text? i have several smoke, a former chocolate and a couple dilute torties, theyre not banned. black and ginger just tends to be the ones people think of first i guess. 15:05, March 30, 2019 (UTC)

I think unless it's said in the text, the coloring of a tortoiseshell should be up to the artist....given we just nerfed the stripe rule due to "realism", I don't see why we should continue to limit people. Let people be creative, it ain't going to kill anyone. And even then, not everyone is able to make hyper-realistic patterns and it's hardly fair to force that on people. ​

There was never any rule on tortoiseshell coloring. I specifically said in my comment that pca's rules on it are very unspecific, i.e. it doesn't actually say anywhere what's officially considered a tortie or have any specifications about what colors are allowed. Adding ginger or cream or something was just a suggestion, since real life torties don't come in gray and black, it was never meant to imply there was any rule about it. And given PCA's general stance on realism atm, I don't think there should be a rule. Though it might be good to officially clarify what pca does and does not consider a tortie (and maybe also tabbies for that matter, since there's been plenty of "that doesn't look like a tabby/is that considered a tabby/ect." situations), just to avoid any confusion in the future.

Like I said, brown is darker form of cream, which is also a filtered form of ginger. I think Finch's image looks chocolate to me. It doesn't look gray imo <span style="">16:13, 3/30/2019

In cats, brown/chocolate is a shade of black. <span style="">16:15 Sat Mar 30 2019

Any other comments? Given there's no rule... nothing'll really change save for being able to reference this for rebuffing comments, really. Imo, as long as it looks tortie, we'll be okay. We can't run wild, though, either - so as long as it meets the written text then it'll work out.

Bluestar pale gray vs pale alts
So it was decided by PC that pale gray is considered distinct from blue-gray, and also that the "pale" (not "pale gray") cites for bluestar are considered mistakes since she's meant to be the same shade as mistystar. But since that's two separate reasons for considering each of those two descriptions mistakes, it's not really clear how it'll work with the alts. Is there gonna be an alt set for all "pale gray" descriptions, with no blue tinting, but then an additional pale blue-gray set for when she's only called "pale"? Since "pale" would usually be added on the the base coloring (blue gray) in cases like this for other characters.

It seems a bit excessive to have two alt sets for such similar descriptions, but I'm not really sure what would be a better solution. Making them all pale blue-gray would contradict the decision PC made to consider pale gray different from blue-gray, but making them all pale gray with no blue would be an assumption that the authors didn't intend "pale" to mean "pale blue-gray" in those cases.

Any ideas?

Brokenstar's eyes
They are cited to be orange, but his chararts show them as yellow/amber. Should these be tweaked?

Yes! 16:23, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

No, they're orange enough <span style="">12:27, 4/07/2019

nah it's alright. --

14:01, 4/07/2019

as the OA of the df, the eyes are blatantly yellow so yes they need to be fixed 01:14, April 13, 2019 (UTC)

The same thing happened with Yellowfang a while back, they should be fixed. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 02:29, April 13, 2019 (UTC)

As the leader’s OA I agree, they are definitely more yellow than orange and I’d be happy to tweak to match ththe description better. 11:50 Tue Apr 23 2019

Any other comments? I agree, easy enough of a tweak and since the OAs want to they can have at it

Feathertail UG Alt
I looked through the charart list, and noticed Feathertail's warrior alt for Ultimate Guide was still listed. I actually did this image in December, File:Feathertail.warrior.alt2.png. Does this need renamed to alt3 or was this an oversight? I just don't want my image to be replaced, especially since it was the first in that set. <span style="">22:06 Tue Apr 9

I think it was just an oversight and for the redo warrior blanks. ^^ 18:13, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

Linear Art Matching
^ We need specific guidelines on whether someone should match the other's linear art.

In my opinion, they should match because different linear arts make two chararts look completely different. It's almost like scar placement in a way. But no matter what I'd be fine with making either clear on the guidelines so long as it's enforced consistently.

its not the same. ragged or messy fur can easily change all the time and there is no reason to force someone to match it, especially at different parts of life. this is supposed to be about being creative, not limiting it. 23:29, April 25, 2019 (UTC)

It depends on what the alt is for, as sometimes it does need to match in certain ways (eyes, scars, ear tears, lost limbs, Brightheart), but generally I agree with skt.

Unless its major tweaks, like Spooky said, I don't think they should match and I'm agreeing with what David said, PCA should be encouraging creativity not limiting it. Also, by having people use the same base that someone already has had approved, no one would be learning lineart tweaking skills as much and I personally think that people should learn how to tweak lineart at some point. 23:41 Thu Apr 25 2019

Agreeing with above. If it still matches the description, why does it matter? Doing your own line art tweaks is fun, why discourage it? Why does every fluffy/plumy tail have to look exactly the same? They wouldn't in real life 🤷 <span style="">23:58 Thu Apr 25

Thought I should add, I do agree though that where ever this discussion ends up, the guidelines should reflect how lineart tweaks/matching goes to avoid further issues in the future. 00:01 Fri Apr 26 2019

I agree with the above comments. We shouldn't be required to match line art, unless it's torn ears, etc. 00:14, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

to be honest, imo the linear art should match just because it looks more consistent in the art gallery: especially for things like plumpy tails, it just looks inconsistent/weird when you have 1 tail that is much larger/a completely different style than the other. but regardless of what happens, enforce a single rule consistentl and dont bend them for other people .-. 01:31, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Fox and Burnt. The art just looks incosistent when they don't match and I honestly think the artist should match them. 01:51, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

So, many of you don't know me but I'd like to put my two cents in. I don't believe we should enforce a lineart to match, but suggest to keep the lines as similar as possible; of course, being artist's choice to comply or remain creative. Restrictions ruin the beauty of creativity and would destroy the drive for many to put in their effort for Project: Character Art. I personally joined this project to develop and better myself as an artist and personally would not be able to develop and enjoy the process if I just had to use someone else's work. Thank you 02:19, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there should be a "set" style for ragged or spikey fur. Every charartist knows what ragged fur is and is capable of doing it themselves when the need for a ragged cat charart arises. Altering lineart is fun, it gives artists a chance to make their image stand out via their own style. However, if it's the same character (like if the cat with ragged fur has an alt) then I could see the reasoning behind getting the lineart to match? I think that might be the initial point Fox is trying to make. <span style="">03:12 Fri Apr 26

Honestly, I think they should match. Every one I've done I've been told to match the person's before me lineart. I do understand ragged fur and such but when it comes to characters that have major body characteristics such as Thistleclaw and Mistcloud I think the style itself should match. Like I feel we should be able to do our own but make sure the stule itself matches the one before it. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 04:37, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

im not saying that we should use the exact same linear art for all the cats across the board, im saying that within the same character, the linear art should be the same because it will look consistent within a gallery– this applied especially for flat muzzles/torn ears/tail tweaks. 05:41, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

torn ears and whatever are fine to have to match, as theyre permanent. whats not fair is being forced to match non permanent things like ragged fur. as long as it matches whst the text is saying theres no need and frankly will lead to a lot of uneeded redos. feel free to nominate images of yours that were made to match where they shouldnt because how are people going to learn if they cannot experiment with lineart in their own way? 06:33, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I wasn't even talking about ragged fur. I was soeaking more of the permanent effects such as Cinderpelt, Mistcloud, etc. Like those should all match with tge same style so it doesn't look inconsistent because I have to agree that when we have different style on ine character it seems a bit off. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 06:46, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

im agreeing with david on this, pca is about being creative. i dont think it'd be fun copying the same ragged fur design on a set as it limits creativity. cats like cinderpelt who have permanent injuries should be matched and mistcloud's spikey fur can be interpreted in many ways.

i dont think we should all have the same styles as it leaves the set boring and similar, and it will feel like a "code"

12:51, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

(my poor two cents) I feel like alts should match with the original image. Maybe not directly, but close enough so they don't look drastic. I agree with David that ragged fur in general should be artist's choice...let people learn and express their creativity, but I also agree with Ellie and Burnt that the major and/or permanent ones should generally match style. 17:57, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

for permanent things they ahould be being matched anyway if part of the true desc set, because those are permanent and consistently depicting the same true appearanve of that cat. though i feel with alts, if its a mistaken desc, is there really any harm in having different lineart? its a mistake and not their actual consistent appaearance, and i can onlythink of longtail and tigerstar even having their torn ears described in a very specific way. as long as it matches to the text its not going against anything and alts are often peoples only way to actually get lineart practice in because chararts often get taken quickly. 21:30, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

A lot of the alt are just wrong colors, the alt and pelt styles themselves should still match imo <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 21:32, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

why though is what im asking. its still an error and different lineart isnt erasing the description and the art isnt consistent to begin with anyway since its multiple users. 21:35, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

Jesus, it seems I've missed a lot. Anyways, I'm pretty much in the same boat as David here. Main images should match, but I kind of feel that alts, unless they depict a major thing (Poppydawn's or Feathertail's tail, for example, or Raggedstar's raggedness, since he was named for it), they could be left up to whatever artist is doing the image. In the cases of major things where a cat is named for it or it's been explicitly described in a location (Tigerstar's ripped ear was very specific I believe), then they should match... that kind of thing isn't going to change.

Join Requests
Can i join the project? https://pixlr.com      Cattown, pRecIseLy 02:20, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

Cinderheart's TUG Alt
i feel like we should discuss this, so i'll be posting it here. i posted the vote since it looked shorthair but others who voted pass on it also said the colors looked off. we discussed it on discord but i felt like putting it here to hear more opinions about this. 04:35, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

I'm gonna throw my opinion in here. Cinderheart was never confirmed as a longhair and since TC doesn't have requirements like RC and WC, it shouldn't happen. The coloring itself is gray tabby which is what her other images are for. The added coloring comes from the lighting and it seems kinda unfair to allow this one when other images were declined for lighting. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 04:47, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

fur length alone unless its named for shouldnt be an alt thing. it is utterly pointless to have 50 dark grey tabbies where the only difference is fur length. that image depicts what she is, aside from bushy fur (which she may only be medium haired, not even long. dont remember seeing that.) 04:50, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

if that alt stays for any reason, i feel like it would be because its not dappled when cinderheart actually is. the fur length stuff shouldnt be the justification 04:57, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I'm agreeing with David here, the TUG art's only true difference is the fur length. The artist's style in the work is notable, but, it does appear to depict her with her current descriptions (dapples and all - very minute to my eye, looking at the way the markings are painted).

This should, in my opinion, be taken to a revote to decide whether or not it is a passable alternate image though, as its only fair to engage everyone's opinion again.

i seriously dont see any dapples nor "smoke" on the picture. she looks more just of a plain black or gray tabby. 06:11, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

I think she looks like a blueish-gray tabby with darker stripes and random brown blotches. Kind of like Silverstream's alts. Cinderheart is not bluish in color, she's smoky gray. I think this alt is okay to stay but I'm not exactly sure. 15:21, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

smoky if anything is likely referring to her colouring being similar to smoke, not the actual smoke genetics thing. since it doesnt specify, we cant really use that. and the brownish is very minor; ive had an irl grey one become sunbrowned. doesnt mean she wasnt still grey, and it very much does look to me like shes in the sun. 21:45, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

I personally don't see enough of a difference between her normal description and The Ultimate Guide's artwork to really warrant the image. also, lighting can drastically change the color of a cat; I've seen many pictures of said cat David is talking about and she definitely looked brown in some and gray in others. (cause I'm pretty sure they're talking about Fluffy) Also, we're assuming 'smoke' refers to the pelt style and not a coloring, so that's definitely out the window with this, and I think that Wayne (who painted those) was only given a basic description and not some insanely in-depth one like what we have listed on the wiki. It makes sense that certain things like 'dappled' are missing, it's not necessarily a mistake. Those things were listed in the text, not the allegiances. Who are we to say it's an error when Wayne might not have even known about it?

Minor character Images
This is more of an announcement than a discussion.

Please check first a minor characters rank before making an image!

So many good images are going to waste because images are being made for cats who have no cited rank. No images will be given to cats if they do not have a cited rank (as seen next to the Rank(s)) Do not just assume a character is a warrior.

For example, this cat could be a warrior, but there is nothing to say they actually are. They could be a queen, an elder, heck medicine cat. But we don't know, so we cannot give them a blank right now.

I know this is confusing, so I've added characters that can have images right now in the characters needing art list. It lists all minor characters needing art except from the mangas, which I'll get to. Please check this as it also will help you with how to name your image too.

Sorry if I seem a little aggressive. I'm just frustrated how often this is happening, and it's hard removing such good images.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:40, April 30, 2019 (UTC)

Non-OA Pattern Redoes
I've been observing this for pretty much all my years here at WWiki, and I believe now it is the time to stop disregarding the old pattern just because the blank is redone (only applies to non-OA claims in a blank redo). And I'm not just talking about images in a set (yes, like Shade Pelt, if you were following the drama), I'm also calling out stand alone images (too many examples, if one wants them, I'll gladly list them out, but picking out my example, Scarlet). Yes, I'm as guilty of this as most of you are, and I'm willing to redo my images to match the old pattern if a policy is set in stone.

I'm not convinced that being the only image in a set automatically disqualifies the OA's rights to the pattern. Here's an argument I frequently heard on Shade Pelt's image, "the only reason it is not in use is because the blank is being redone hence it should be matched," but then also "if an image is the only one in the set, it can be redone." But for what reason? The OA of a single image shouldn't have less claim to the pattern than the OA of a separate image does. What is the difference? Is it suddenly less, quote "disrespectful" if the image is the only one in the set? I'm genuinely confused by most of your comments on Shade Pelt implying that redoing the pattern is ok if it's a single image, but not if it's in a set. If we are to force people to match patterns, then force it for all instances, not just one. Call for the redo of all images that were unfairly redone, not just ones that have other to-be redone images in a set.

I agree that in both instances the pattern should be matched due to respect for the OA, and this shouldn't change regardless of whether it's a single image or not. Currently there is no policy for this, and I would very much like it if all unused images - regardless of being in a set or not - were matched. I'd be happy to comply, but don't force it on a single person. If this is agreed on, either from now on (after Shade Pelt, because whatever new policy wasn't reinforced back then), match the original pattern regardless of the image not being in use due to blank redoes, or redo everyone's images prior that did not match the original pattern. There can be no double standards for this.

reinforce all, or reinforce none. redo everything from before, or keep everything. my two cents. morally speaking (yee tok), i think we all know whats the right option 12:04, April 30, 2019 (UTC)

what burnt said^^ 12:06, April 30, 2019 (UTC)Tybaxel

Agreed, there's no valid reasoning behind "the image is old." The image should still be matched regardless. I think that either all of these images should be redone, or enforce the rule AFTER Shade Pelt is approved so images can be matched from here on out. Edit: Just realized I repeated what Fox said at the end because I didn't read all the way through, but I'll leave it because I agree.- <font style="background:yellow">JArtz11  Oblivious to EVERYTHING!  12:34, April 30, 2019 (UTC)

To be fair, I will be redoing my images if I had redone them in a different way or form. I apologise for the lack of respect I had given to you, burnt. 13:25, April 30, 2019 (UTC)

Just curious, did anyone even ask an inactive "original OA" how they would feel about their patterns being redone? Or are we just projecting random feelings to make arbitrary rules? Especially when images are redone or tweaked for silly reasons all the time in this project, like the fifth attempt at matching Firestar to Jake or whatever. I have watched, in the four years inactive or lurking, nearly two-third of my original images redone or tweaked anyway. It's something expected in this project and most of those inactive users redid or tweaked images at some point in their PCA career, unless they were around before tweak week and in that case their images are probably already redone years ago unless it was like a black cat lol

Honestly, I'd say try to make a reasonable effort to contact all the original OAs of all the old warrior or elders or kits and if they don't want the image/care about the pattern its free game to do whatever with the pattern. <span style="">13:57 Tue Apr 30 2019