Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Official Art
Apologies if the discussion has already been made in the past, but I really believe that we should account for the official art in this project. I mean, the official art was made for a reason. It's the publisher/artist's depiction of the character (and it's technically part of the book, so it should have some sort of canonicity). If the art is inconsistent with the book descriptions I think it should warrant an alt.

Thoughts? I was originally going to post this under the PC discussion but I found that it was more related to PCA.

Ive actually always wondered why we don't do alts for characters shown differently from their written descriptions. Especially when some of them are portrayed incorrectly consistently (Firestar being shown as solid most times despite being confirmed as a tabby especially). 18:51 Fri Aug 17

Wasn't there an alt for Bluestar based on her BP art at some point? Or am I just misremembering things?

Anyways, I do agree that the official art should be accounted for in PCA. However, things could get a little messy on deciding which characters to tweak/redo and which characters to give alts to. So, honestly, I think we should make alts for all characters that have official art, unless the official art and the pixels are similar enough. If anyone wants to expand on my idea or point out its flaws, feel free to. 00:32, August 18, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Branch^^ The German wiki does that as well - makes alts for how characters appear in official artwork. After all, it is officially released material, just like the books. 19:26, August 18, 2018 (UTC)

I think Branch's idea is plausible. It doesn't make sense to completely ignore the official artwork as if it weren't there. I think it should apply to book covers as well.

Just being hypothetical here, but why not keep the art we have and replace it with the official art as charart? 12:19, August 19, 2018 (UTC)

At one point we made alts for official art. If we want to do that again I don't believe we actually deleted the images? We can use put them back in the page, probably with a toggle. 16:30 Mon Aug 20 2018

The main problem with outright replacing charart with official art is that most of the official art doesn't accurately reflect book descriptions. I think we should make a toggle, as Raelic suggested.

Honestly a toggle for the charart/written descriptions and the official art is probably the best idea. Especially for characters who are very constantly showned in a way that differs from in-book descriptions. 14:25 Tue Aug 21

So then what would the toggle for the main image be? I imagine the alt would be "according to official artwork," but what about the other? 16:09, August 22, 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the main would be the in-book/written descriptions like it already is. 17:27 Wed Aug 22

Any other comments? We do not have a lot of opinions... I would like to hear more thoughts from more people before we conclude this. 20:23, October 14, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the concept of adding a toggle to the charart section for official art. Several users have complained about how our chararts don't match the official art, and this way it appeases both sides: an official depiction and an artistic depiction based on the character's official description.  SPO OKY FI RE  00:36, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

I agree we should have a toggle - we could just have the toggle called "Artistic design" and "Official design" or something of the like. 00:38, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

I originally thought that it would be a good idea to list at least one of the official artwork pieces in the charcat toggle as well, perhaps replacing the charart, but I do not know what the rest of you think. If that is an unpopular opinion, what about the portrayals? Sometimes they are very inconsistent - for example, Firestar is portrayed rather differently in various covers - he has no stripes in some, stripes in some, a white muzzle in another, and is different shades of ginger in all portrayals. Jayfeather is portrayed without pupils in The Ultimate Guide, but has pupils in Eclipse and The Sight. Bramblestar is portrayed with a pale chest in his manga appearances, and his coloring is different in the cover appearances as well. Lionblaze has several different colorings as well, and he is portrayed with a literal mane at the end of Crowfeather's Trial. Leafpool looks completely different on both The Forgotten Warrior and Twilight, and I could go on. But basically, tl;dr, there are so many inconsistencies in the official art. What do we use? Do we use actual pixel art for the toggles, the covers for the toggles, which designs do we decide on? 00:55, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps we could use the most recent portrayal (for example Firestar in The Last Hope (?)). It kind of makes sense, after all.

I think we should use the Ultimate Guide for the main official art. It is fairly recent and it is a comprehensive source for all of the important characters in Warriors. After all, it is called the Ultimate Guide. :)  SPO OKY FI RE  16:03, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

I'm all for to have a toggle for official artwork chararts. I like Hawkey's idea to use the Ultimate Guide. It seems like a safe base line to use. And are we doing this for all blanks (kit, apprentice, warrior etc) for each character shown with an official artwork, or just the "main" blank, such as Firestar's leader image since he's mostly known as the leader of ThunderClan idk. 20:47, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

I think we could do official artwork chararts for the ranks they were shown in. For example Into the Wild shows Firestar as an apprentice so he should get an apprentice image based on the official artwork. And as for replacing existing charart I don't think it should be done because the official art doesn't reflect how the character's appearance is described in the books.

On a side note too I think "artistic design" is misleading because it sounds like it's a fan's own interpretation of the character without evidence from the book. I think a more fitting name for the toggle would be something like "in-book description" vs "official depiction". And a problem with doing chararts for official art on the new book covers is that the lighting is very tinted. It'd be impossible to accurately colorpick off of those. Perhaps we should just have a toggle for the actual official art and the charart?

I agree with Fox. My vote is to do a toggle between the official art and the charart, but not alter the chararts to look like the official art.  SPO OKY FI RE  14:30, October 22, 2018 (UTC)

I guess the main question now is whether we should make new chararts with patterns the same as the official art. Now that I think about it, if we have a toggle with the official depiction won't it be sort of pointless to make new chararts?

pixels for matching the official art would be pointless. people can just refer to the official art if they want to see how it is canonically. and no, we shouldn't alter our chararts to match the official art, because that's also pretty pointless. 20:17, October 26, 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Though by the same vein, I think we should also remove alts regarding manga art because readers can just refer to that too.

A toggle with official art and chararts sounds like a good idea to me. Not in favor of making new chararts to match the official art, as skt explained above.

23:03, November 12, 2018 (UTC)

Any more thoughts on this? We seem to have a mix of valid opinions here. It seems the consensus as of now (please correct me if I am misinterpreting anything) is to have a toggle (or something related) between the actual official images presented on the covers/artwork and the in-book description character art that we create, and to not create new artwork since the designs would be shown in the toggle. This consensus sounds like something for PC now, but anything else? 03:56, November 24, 2018 (UTC)

while this is up if we do create a toggle, what do people think about th eorder in which images should be taken? something like TUG > cover art > those black and white field guide images > manga. if a cat didnt have say, TUG art, it'd default to cover art, and so on. 21:05, November 27, 2018 (UTC)

I support the idea of having the official art in a toggle in the infobox, but I think that even if we establish an order for what images we use, we should leave it flexible to make sure we are using the images that best match their canonical description. For example, in the proposed order, Hollyleaf's TUG image would be the one used, but it is inaccurate because it shows her with yellow/amber eyes, so in that case I think we should skip it and use one of the cover art images that correctly show her with green eyes. Also, I know people want to use TUG as a baseline, but I feel like some of the lighting and some of the angles that the cats are shown from are kind of weird in TUG and that it might be better to use cover art, but that's just my opinion. 21:05, December 1, 2018 (UTC)

i'm for that but i'm not sure if eye colour alone should be used to make the decision to move to the next rank, since it's pretty generally minor and there's cats like flametail that have mistakes in all of them. 22:46, December 1, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree to eye color should be pretty low on the concerns for choosing an image and definitely factors like fur color and pattern should be higher. All I'm saying is that while it's good to set out an order, I think we should also take things on a case by case basis. Like with Hollyleaf in particular, it doesn't make sense to use the amber eyed image when she's always described with green eyes and all of her other official art has her eye color correct, but in other cases (especially where eye color is inconsistent in the books or there are other mistakes in the images), it would be better to disregard it. 23:20, December 1, 2018 (UTC)

Comments? :) 01:25, December 14, 2018 (UTC)

Unknown Residence Blank
Are we changing the meaning of this blank to apply to everyone, then? Because when we made these blanks, they were originally only meant for the ghost cats/purgatory cats from A Vision of Shadows (including more recently: Pebbleshine and Ashfoot). We need to have that discussion before anything is posted on the approval page, because the blanks as we currently have them don't apply to anything other than the ghost cats (which we'll need to change the file names for those ANYWAYS, depending on the outcome here), so if we start making them for characters like Jake, Ravenpaw, ect, we'll need to officially change the intent behind these blanks. ​

I honestly didn't originally know that they were solely for the AVoS ghosts, I saw Riin reserve one and figured they were meant for other characters as well. I don't see why they couldn't have the intent for other characters. They are named Unknown Residence and since Jake, Scourge, etc. have the affiliation of that it would make sense to give them that as well. Minkclaw Winter is coming. 04:09, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

That's my bad for reserving early, whoops. But I do agree they should be considered "unknown residence" as well. 04:11, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I'm personally of the mindset that the unknown residence blanks should be reserved for any unknown afterlife. The blanks were created because the "rank" holds significance like StarClan and the Dark Forest. It's a destination. Cat purgatory. A place for good kittypets. All afterlives. Neither StarClan or Dark Forest, but somewhere present and mingling around. As for the actual "unknown residence" cats...I don't think they should have this blank. For the infobox, I'm all for it. But as a rank, I disagree. The thing with an "unknown residence" is just that. It's unknown. We don't know where the cat ended up. They died, but they didn't end up in StarClan, the Dark Forest, or some form of alternative afterlife. No one knows, hence why it's "unknown".

However, some of them, such as Tom, Jake and maybe Ravenpaw (might have to look at the cite closely), could have this blank imo. They've been confirmed with the cites (again, might have to double check) to be present in some sort of afterlife. I think for the sanity of creating blanks with one or two cats in it, those three aforementioned should get the "unknown residence blank". Cats like Tigerstar, Spottedleaf, and Scourge should not have one since they just died (again) and went nowhere...somewhere unknown even to the authors. That's just my interpretation.

tl;dr cats who have been confirmed to be in some sort of afterlife that's not StarClan or the Dark Forest, should get it, but cats who died and the authors have confirmed they have no died and don't know where they went, should not get it. 04:23, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

use the blanks for both, just rename purgatory cats to ghost.png. 04:25, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I don't think Jake and Ravenpaw and them should have these blanks... I think they were meant solely for the cats who were stuck between the real world and the afterlife. Not knowing a cat's residence vs. a cat actually being described with no true residence are completely different things. So I think they should just be for the ghost cats.  JOLLY  FIRE  06:00, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

Scourge is the only cat to be confirmed not in any official residence I think, (though Vicky's comment was incredibly vague) while, Ravenpaw and Tom have been confirmed to be in an else where residency. To expand on my comment from before, I believe cats with unknown residencies should get the blank since StarClan, the DF and soon Endless Hunting will have afterlife blanks, I think it'd be fair to give cats with a confirmed sort of afterlife blanks as well. I agree with David's idea of just renaming the files/titles but using the blanks for both, since they're all described to be in some form of afterlife. 06:19, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with them getting the blank, we can rename the files like was suggested above.

16:08, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I also agree with them using this blank. 16:26 Sun Nov 25

Just to be clear (since this is something I was confused with at first reading some of the comments), this would not be for typical deceased Clan cats who which we don't have a confirmation of a post-death residence, correct? (such as Briarlight) The general idea here seems to be for those who have some kind of afterlife confirmed- I want to make sure everyone's on the same page here, so we don't get more arguments in the future. ​​​​​​

I agree, I think it'd only be okay with cats to have a confirmed unknown residence much like Ravenpaw, Scourge, Jake, etc. With a cite that is. Minkclaw Winter is coming. 20:20, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

Yes this is purely for cats who have been confirmed on their afterlives, so Jake, Scourge, Tom and Ravenpaw. Cats like Briarlight and others who have not been confirmed to have an afterlife should not get a blank since we don't know where they are and their is no confirmation of where they are in general. Cats who have a confirmed and specified afterlife should get a blank and cats who have died but have not been seen/confirmed in an afterlife should not. Not knowing where they are and them being in different afterlives are two different things, in my opinion. 20:41, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

What about Tigerstar, Spottedleaf, Brokenstar, and Hawkfrost? 20:47, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

They're just gone. The cats that died twice will never make another appearance and have no residence.  JOLLY  FIRE  20:48, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

That comes in question, should there be a no residence blank? 20:48, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I think that cats that die 2 times should get a blank, and cats with unknown residence should get one, and Scourge... he... uh... is gone. IDK what to do about him. ~RAR =^.,.^= Im spoopy kittan! 02:19, November 26, 2018 (UTC)

Well all Vicky said about Scourge is that because he doesn't believe in StarClan, then he's not in the Dark Forest or any Clan-affiliated afterlife. I think Scourge can be up to interpretation. ​

I don't think there should be a "no residence" blank, since how can we give a blank to a cat that doesn't exist anymore? It's like Hawkey and others said; they're poof, gone. They don't exist anymore. It is different from an afterlife because some cats still exist after they died. Cats such as Tigerstar and Spottedleaf don't. On the topic of Scourge, I don't think he qualifies for this blank in the definition we're going by. Looking at the Erin Hunter Chat 3 (where the cite says it is), Scourge has no concept of afterlife, and he didn't go to the Dark Forest or StarClan...so my interpretation is that Scourge is just like Tigerstar and Spottedleaf: gone. He doesn't exist anymore. He didn't believe in any afterlife, so he didn't go to any after he died. 02:40, November 26, 2018 (UTC)

The cats that died twice like Spottedleaf among others wouldn't get a blank, I think it was said that they'd keep their last image blanks? Minkclaw Winter is coming. 02:51, November 26, 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure. I do agree with that, since they have no affiliation whereas cats with an afterlife technically do. I think only Jake, Tom and Ravenpaw should get an unknown blank since they at least have been confirmed to be in an afterlife, just an unspecified one. ​

I disagree with using the blank for cats like Jake, Tom, and Ravenpaw. Cats like Jake and Ravenpaw are actually in the afterlife, in the skies, and can and have visited StarClan even though they themselves live in different skies, as opposed to the ghost cats, who are trapped on earth until whatever unsettled business they have is taken care of and then they join StarClan. I really don't think we should equate these two situations, which to me seem rather different, by using the same blank. 21:27, December 1, 2018 (UTC)

If Jake has visited StarClan, shouldn't there be a reference/citation that he has thus giving him the StarClan cat rank? I don't see why they can't have both as well. Minkclaw Winter is coming. 00:02, December 3, 2018 (UTC)

I think the cite was only that Tallstar travels outside of StarClan to visit Jake iirc. ​

^ Cite here. It only mentions Tallstar visiting Jake outside of StarClan, rather than Jake going into StarClan. ​

Any more comments? 01:24, December 14, 2018 (UTC)

So what about Jake, Tom, and Ravenpaw? Do we think they should get an unknown blank or not? 05:44, December 16, 2018 (UTC)

I think those three should since they are confirmed to reside somewhere, but not any other character with no confirmed residence. 17:43, December 16, 2018 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with Ivy here - those three aren't ghost cats, and our unknown blank was created for ghost cats. Imo, that ghost-state of being half-stuck is an actual rank in and of itself. Raven and the others should have a different blank depicting that they have a confirmed afterlife that isn't ghost, StarClan, ToEH, or any of the others like DF. 17:54, December 16, 2018 (UTC)

Should we rename our existing blank to be "ghost" to avoid confusion and then make a new blank for actual unknown residences? —​

I think we should, because it's not strictly an unknown residence--we know where they reside, just not the name of said residence. Plus, they don't exactly walk the same skies as Jake and the others.

Let's rename it then. I read the comments ^^ and I think Scourge should have an Unknown Blank. Since he's dead, and he doesn't have anywhere to reside to, he should be unknown. -- Silverfur   skz  [ 05:20, 12/25/2018 ]

i dont agree with scourge because the way it was worded "Nope, because he doesn't believe in StarClan, and therefore has no concept of any sort of after life." is basically saying he didn't go anywhere, somewhat along the line of currently faded cats. 22:17, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

Speckletail Alt Queen Image
So I was talking to Jayce and Jayie about this in the Discord server and since Speckletail was a queen for most of her appearances I believe this would warrant her to getting a perma queen alt. As I believe from what the books say she had Lionheart and Goldenflower but remained a queen after the two were apprenticed then later had Mistlekit and Snowkit, so from the two litter separations she remained as a queen. —  Ellie  Fear breeds a desire  for simplicity   01:48, December 20, 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't go that far as to say she wasn't a warrior in between, but she's only listed as a queen in the original arc, and there's no way Snowkit would have been alive in Into the Wild if he's still a kit in Rising Storm, unless we have confirmation otherwise? Do we have proof...? I'm not even sure, since Mistlekit (apparently her other kit) only has her appearance in Fire and Ice. ​​​

I think Morningflower, Mosspelt, Brindleface, and others like them should get one as well. Considering when their kits are apprenticed they remained queens. Mosspelt was a queen a while before Willowshine was even born. —  Ellie  Fear breeds a desire  for simplicity   02:18, December 20, 2018 (UTC)

okay, I am probably wrong, but Mosspelt may have had Willowkit late, and maby she had other kits we never learnd about, but we dont know, anyways Im probably wrong. Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 02:35, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

She may have but since they aren't named or it isn't confirmed that she had kits. I think she should still get the alt. —  Ellie  Fear breeds a desire  for simplicity   02:44, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Speckletail. Mosspelt was listed as a queen for just about the entirety of OotS. Morningflower was listed as a queen for A Dangerous Path and Darkest Hour after Gorsepaw was made an apprentice before becoming an elder for the rest of her life. Brindleface was listed as a warrior after her kits were made apprentices in A Dangerous Path, too. So, based on that knowledge, I'd say Mosspelt and Morningflower would get the permanent queen blank. What about queens who were listed as such but never confirmed to have kits? Such as Whitetail (WC) and Ivytail (SC)? 03:06, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

Hmm I think the ones with no confirmed kits should have a perma-queen blank; they weren't necessarily permanent queens, but the blank represents a queen with no kits, so it'd work well enough. I'll concur that Speckletail, Mosspelt, and Morningflower would get one. Not sure on Brindleface, don't remember her ever being still there post-kits 20:01, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

Brindleface was a warrior when she died, so I don't think she stayed in the nursery very long after her kits were apprenticed? —​

She's listed as a queen when they're listed as apprentices so I think that's still warrant her one. As despite being listed as a warrior after that book I think she should still get one, I can't exactly remember which book it was but she was still listed as a queen while Fernpaw and Ashpaw are apprentices. —  Ellie  Fear breeds a desire  for simplicity   21:14, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

Her kits became apprentices in Rising Storm, and she is listed as a warrior in the following book, A Dangerous Path. And her first litter technically didn't have a gap, since her kits from Forest of Secrets got their apprentice names within the book, she can be listed as a queen at the start. There's not really a legitimate gap 02:28, December 22, 2018 (UTC)

with the cats that are listed as queens in other clans like ivytail....we don't see every single cat in those, and the kits aren't always listed. so those cats are a hard no from me. we don't know if mosspelt had more kits as well, so thats also a no from me, unless here's something somewhere that says she didn't have any at the time. 20:20, December 22, 2018 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure about Mosspelt as she was listed as a queen a lot before even having Willowshine, but from what I remember she hasn't mentioned having any other litters aside from Willowshine and fostering Feathertail and sibs. —  Ellie  Fear breeds a desire  for simplicity   20:15, December 26, 2018 (UTC)

Starclan Kit
I dont know what happened, but I made a topic on blanks with waste on them (I looked in the history, and couldnt find it), but it disapered, and the one I had the biggest problem with, was the Starclan kit blank, and my mom agrees (she has lived with cats all her life) that if the leg is behind it, there would at least be a bit of a foot there, and it is covered in waste, pure waste, I dont know if it should be edited, or just re-done, what do you think we could do?Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 02:42, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

just went in history aigain, I found that it was fixed on med cat. Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 02:44, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

Things do tend to get archived after a while, if there's no ongoing discussion. Anyways, I fixed the waste on both the long and short blanks, since we can do that without discussion anyways. I'm quite fond of these, and wouldn't be for a redo, but if the anatomy truly is an issue then a tweak would suffice. But I mean, the normal StarClan blanks have the flank this way too, so if we do this we'd have to do those, which... that's a lot of tweaks. 03:02, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

we could say the foot is hidden by the tail, wich would be okay exept for the cats with short tails, so cats like Turtle Tail, or we can bring this up aigain later, when we dont have cats who need art, or tons of things going on, and when we dont have a book pland for coming out soon, and I can try to find waste to be fixed if wanted. Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 03:12, December 21, 2018 (UTC)

It's gonna take a long time, especially how many starclan kits there are (not many, but still) The anatomy looks fine with me and drawing a foot would not fit with the position the kit is at. I really like these blanks a lot. Silverfur  skz  [ 16:42, 12/23/2018 ]

i think they look ok as they are, but if they were tweaked for anything i reckon the lineart could be made a bit thicker, because it looks a bit thinner compared to the other blanks. 22:14, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

yeah, it is realy thin, but it should have like part of a foot. Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 22:43, December 26, 2018 (UTC)

Wow this wiki is going rabid on redoing blanks. It is fine. This blank does not need to be redone in any form. Or the adult StarClan blank. This pose is anatomically correct, and I have seen cats lay like this frequently. The density of the lines is fine. The perspective is what is making the issues people see, because we don't have backgrounds for references. 01:23 Thu Dec 27

these are anatomically correct like sunjaw has said. 18:43, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

Self deprecation and critique etiquette
Hey y'all! So this might be a non-issue, and my apologies if it but this is something that I've noticed constantly ever since I first started working with PCA years ago. It seems to be a persisting issue amongst the community so I wanna bring it up.

We, as artists, are definitely our own worst critics. Art is hard, and we're overly hard on ourselves, for sure. But I see a lot of that seep through onto the approval pages, and I'm guilty of it myself. Saying "I know this sucks, I just wanted to get it up," or "I'm not sure about this, it looks bad," things of that variety. I'm sure we've all posted something along those lines because we, as artists, are always second guessing ourselves. But please, try to lift yourself up. Instead of saying "this looks bad, I just wanted to get it up," maybe say, "I'm unsure how to continue with this and I want critiques" or something. Don't put yourself down when putting things up for approval. From a professional standpoint, it just looks ... bad, and on a personal standpoint, it makes me sad and it brings a lot of negativity. And this goes for anything. If you think your shading looks bad, don't say "I know the shading looks gross," when putting it up, maybe say "I know the shading needs some improvement, can I have some help figuring it out?"

I've been an artist my entire life, and I've struggled heavily with my art from the first year. Gaining confidence is hard, and it's really hard to separate your own self deprecation from your work. But something I've come to find is having a more positive outlook has helped me improve. Instead of going "this sucks, I hate it," I try to think "there's room for improvement here, but I'm proud of myself for going through with this!" Positivity is a must when being an artist, because otherwise your mind gets toxic. I think it's incredibly important we, as a community learn this. Sure, it may not bother some, but It greatly upsets me to see others putting themselves down or being too hard on themselves over their chararts.

And to go along with this, I personally think critiques could be phrased... a bit nicer? Of course, sometimes you have to be blunt and I definitely find it extremely hard to phrase my artistic critiques into words (hence why I'll throw 50 screenshots at someone to try and give visuals to what I mean...) but try and be more positive with critiques. Looking at the approval page rn, this doesn't seem to be too much of an issue, but phrasing critiques to be a bit nicer could help make a more positive and welcome environment. Instead of saying something looks weird, wonky or off, maybe say "this looks out of place," or something. Maybe this is a bit too nitpicky, but be mindful on how you word critiques. I'm definitely to blame for this myself, haha. One thing I have noticed people doing around PCA is reaching out to those to elaborate on critiques, which I absolutely love. It definitely helps a lot of users and it's why I also vouch for having a charart help channel in the Discord, but that's besides my point.

Art is difficult, and instead of sitting in negativity, we should all look to become more positive, not just to each other, but to ourselves as well. The whole "self deprecation jokes are harmful" argument is a very true argument, and being negative towards yourself can do a lot more damage than good. Everyone here is a wonderful artist, and I love watching everyone improve and grow with their own styles. I just want y'all to be able to see your own growth and learn to love your own art, because it's gorgeous! Everyone in this project works super hard and it shows. Instead of putting yourself down, try to lift yourself up! It's difficult, believe me this is a very easier said than done thing, but overcoming artistic negativity paves a way to better improvement and a happier mind.

Everyone here is fantastic, so don't ever let yourself forget that! —​

Regarding the phrasing of critiques, I personally don’t mind if something is called “weird” or “wonky” —I just had that commented on my image—as long as it isn’t rude or meant in a bad way, like “this is so weird looking” or “ew, fix that eye, it’s wonky.” I think it’s fine if people say that. Maybe instead of changing that they could just balance it out with a compliment about something you like on the inage? I always do that. Say “good job” or “nice eyes” or whatever and then go into the critique. That way it braces you and lets you know that people like something, and it isn’t all bad. 05:24, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah! I actually usually try to do that (being in theatre forced it into me haha...) but it's definitely a good idea to bring out into the open ^^ —​

Leader blanks
I just wanted to bring this up now, but for a while, the leader blanks have had some serious issues, anatomy wise. For example, the leader blank literally looks like a dog: File:Leader.short.png and this. The legs are way too long for a cat, the back is not anatomically correct (it should not go down like that), the mouth is off. Those are just my thoughts - I am well aware that we have several blanks up, and I believe that there may be discussions about more, but this is the issue that I believe should be addressed. I do not mean to offend, I really do not, this is just my thoughts. 02:10, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe we should tweak it or redo the blanks. Silverfur  skz  [ 05:14, 12/25/2018 ]

Agreed, but maybe we can keep the pose or something similar? I want something very regal like it. 05:20, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

I think they should be tweaked or keep the pose. Cats standing up like that are not elongated like that, so the anatomy needs major work. Cats sitting like that often appear chubbier, no matter how skinny or fat they are. I have a bengal kitty who looks super chubby when he sits like that but he's a very skinny cat. Personally I'd love a pose more like this, since the leaders should maintain their regal elegance. —​​​

Personally, I like the leader blanks as is, but I admit they could do with some improvement. I say we tweak/redo, whichever is easiest, so redo probably, but keep a similar pose.

05:50, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

Hmm yeah the anatomy is an issue. I would be in favor of a redo, don’t really care what pose it ends up as (new or keep) as long as it’s regal, but fixing the anatomy either way is most important. 05:55, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

The leader blanks should have a emotion. The mouth looks slightly awkward. The legs look too long for a cat, so redo? -- Silverfur   skz  [ 06:01, 12/25/2018 ]

I mean, this -- Silverfur   skz  [ 06:06, 12/25/2018 ]

The leader blanks are one of my favorite sets! They look regal and powerful, commanding the loyalty of their Clanmates. I think it would be okay to tweak for the anatomical issues mentioned above, but I really would like to keep the pose, face, and tail the same. 18:20, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

They do need some bit of improvement per anatomy issues, so maybe redo them but keep the pose. This pose already looks sort of regal in of themselves, and I can tell they radiate some sort of power from the way they stand, so just keep the pose.

I vouch for redoing them but keeping the same pose. I'm... unsure how it'd look tweaking them but I might try and redline later. Regardless, I think we should redo but keep the pose. —​​​

I feel that redoing but keeping the pose is generallly a better idea with the amount of issues to be fixed, a tweaked version might not end up looking as good as a redo could look. <font color="#660000" face="Segoe Script" >SquidwardPlays 23:52, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

I like them, but you are right, it just looks wrong, we should keep the pose tho. <font face="Tempus Sans ITC">Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 22:42, December 26, 2018 (UTC)

Redoing the blank but keeping the pose would be fine with me... these are really dog-like, in the sense they have longer limbs. ​​

I'm clearly outnumbered about this issue, but, eh, let sleeping dogs lie ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ As long as we keep the pose, I'm all for. 00:18, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

Here is the vote. 00:43, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

vote waiting period
this is just for all votes related to charart, not just the alt images. I think we should have a day waiting period before said sections are archived, so people get more of a chance to input on things. it seems a bit more fair as some people have more free time than others, and people witth less free time or even wildly different timezones from a majority american site may miss out on things frequently. the exception would be obvious things like users wanting to redo their own images and such. 19:17, December 26, 2018 (UTC)

👍 I'm all for it. 19:21, December 26, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with this. —​

Sounds good to me. I might be in the EST timezone, but I work third shift, so I miss a lot. This'll benefit a lot of people, myself included. ​

A solid idea^^ I agree

Other blanks
Please do not shoot me. I am just going to compile a list of the blanks that I believe - and others do - should be redone:


 * Leader (stated above)
 * Warrior (this has been a long growing concern of PCA, the anatomy is off everywhere, the tail is too thin especially on the shorthair, the cat's back would have some serious damage to it if a cat was really sitting like that...)
 * Kit (way too small, no chin/jaw, no neck, tail is off, etc)
 * Elder (especially the long-hair, the fur is off and spiky, I cannot see the throat, the line art is definitely off in some places, anatomy wise, the neck should not look like that.)

I definitely understand if people are groaning at me with the amount of blank redos. These are just my thoughts, and I have known people who share the same opinions about these blanks. Please, do not hold back in your opinions and your thoughts about this list, if you disagree, agree, etc, or just do not hold back about possible annoyance over the amount of blank redos/tweaks. 00:33, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the warrior and kit blanks. I feel like the elder blank is tweakable, as for the most part, the issues aren't as bad as the other two. The pose for the kit works, but the small size makes it a pain to work on. I have stated my opinion on the warrior blank so many times. It needs a lot of work, and I still think it should've been redone at the same time as the deputy and med cat ones. However, we need to spread out the blank remakes, especially for the sake of the people who end up making them if they have multiple at one time. Blanks can be a lengthy process to make. <span style="">00:44 Thu Dec 27

Yes, excuse me, I forgot to elaborate that in no way shape or form am I suggesting that all of this needs to be done now. What I am just trying to get now is a consensus from the project is if we want this done or not. If anything, I foresee these projects being done in regular intervals, leaving the biggest projects (the kit and the warrior) to be tackled at a time with a hiatus, perhaps in the summer. But I am not advocating for all of this to be done at the same time or one after another. 00:46, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

Oh I understand! We have just been doing them all pretty quickly, one on top of another lately is all. I'm not trying to say that you suggested they all get done at once! I didn't mean to come off that way. <span style="">00:49 Thu Dec 27

If we spread all of the above through 2019, I think it'll pace nicely. Kit has several issues, but the pose is kinda cute, so I could see getting something similar. Wouldn't mind a new warrior pose though, and imo that has more issues than the kit. I also do agree with a redo of a similar-ish pose on the elder, tweaking blanks is tedious, so may as well just do-over 00:52, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to give a hard no for the warrior and kit. These two blanks are our most popular with each having over 600 images. That amount of work, even with the high number of active users currently, is honestly ridiculous. Not only that, but we'd be erasing hundreds of beautiful artwork from users who have come and gone. The elder I'd be more lenient on, but I honestly think the kit and warrior images are beasts that are too large to be tackled. I'm just not a fan of the "redo blank" train we seem to be on non-stop, and I'm just trying to keep in mind the artwork of others who are no longer active. 01:00, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

As what Vec said, there's many warriors and kits and it might upset loads of people who likes seeing art on articles. Leader is a yes, but elder i'm not quite sure about. 𝕊𝕚𝕝𝕧𝕖𝕣𝕗𝕦𝕣  𝓼𝓴𝔃  [04:19, 12/27/2018 ]

Still agree about redoing the warrior blanks (eventually), as I know multiple people (who would be considered the wiki's audience) that find the blanks awkward-looking.

I agree. The kit and warrior have lots of visible problems, and need to be redone. The elder I don’t think needs, but if you guys want to, then sure. 04:36, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

I do support redoing the warrior blanks, because I think that they have the worst anatomical issues that are the most noticeable to the average viewer. If you are going to redo blanks with comparatively minor anatomy issues, then you should do these as well when they have more major issues. Yes, there are a lot of images, but that just means the redo will take a little longer than some of the other ones. 14:20, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

I believe that we should redo the warrior and kit blanks as well. As Vec stated, it would take a lot of time, but we could make the pages pop even more. Its just like any other redo, but it will take a lot longer.

15:28, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

the elders are fine. while the warriors and kits do have issues there are just far, far too many to even entertain the thought right now, especially with a new series right on the horizon. 18:44, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

I support the redo for the kit and warrior, the tweak for the elder as well.

18:51, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

I support redoing the kit and the warrior, because they are hard to work with. (lord knows how long I spend on shading with the warrior, it's a nightmare) However, the time spent on redoing both of these will be a lot. I suggest we do this when PCA is at a lull, when there's very low activity, like in between books. Maybe do the redos in stages, and little by little redo all the chararts. Because let's face it, there is no way we can redo all of the kits or warriors in one sitting between books. As for the elder, I support a tweak. There aren't any major issues with it, and it seems easily tweakable.

If the warrior and kit are going to be redone, I like Star's idea of doing it in stages. Maybe, for the warriors for example, split them off into groups of 100 by the alphabet or even by arc. Once that section is complete, and the next lull appears, we can begin the next section. I think by doing that, it would be more manageable. Of course, this wouldn't happen anytime soon with the amount of work we have to do at the moment. I could see this happening in the summer perhaps. We usually have a lull then. 19:30, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

Hmm a lull would be best - assuming all of these three go to a vote of some kind at once (saves forumspace), these consensus could be held up and spread through the entirety of 2019. I do like the ideas of stages, perhaps even by Clan or affiliation.

Doing it in sections would be best ^^ Also starting in summer. Summer seems to be when people are most active and there's a lull, so we could probably get quite a bit done then. I think we should start with the new arc for the first stage, since the first book will likely not have too many new warriors. —

I like Spooky's idea of going by Clan. 21:04, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

Minor characters
This was made in PC a while back, for all those cats without names. However, a decent lot of them have ranks and descriptions, and really the only thing they're missing is a name. If they have ranks and descriptions, shouldn't we be making images for them? I think this was brought up a long time ago, but I wanted to discuss it again. We make images for all cats that have ranks and a valid description to go with, so even though naming these will probably get hellish, I do think that some of these (especially the ones that appear and aren't just mentioned, and have dialogue at that) need an image to represent them. Thoughts?

I agree. Maybe try naming them KP (TR) or something lmao idk what their names would be. (And this will contradict eachother as there's so many KPs in SD) -- 𝕊𝕚𝕝𝕧𝕖𝕣𝕗𝕦𝕣   𝓼𝓴𝔃  [04:16, 12/27/2018 ]

maby we could do for names, [book][clan][rank] or somthing, like a med cat in Dark River (as an example) File:DR.SC.MC, or somthing like that, and if we dont have that info, we dont use it. <font face="Tempus Sans ITC">Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 18:54, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

That's a good point. They should get images, after all they have ranks and descriptions. The naming is gonna be a problem though, and maybe the naming system should be something like [description].[book].[normal extension]. I like your naming system Owl, the only problem is there may not be confirmed Clans for some of these cats, and it wouldn't be fair to deny them images just because we don't have a confirmed Clan.

if we dont have that information, we could not put it in, so it cold be (useing my example) [book][rank], but we should always keep the book and rank, because if we dont know the book... we dont know they exist, and we need the rank to do the blank. <font color="#ffffff"> <font face="Tempus Sans ITC">Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 20:12, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

Sharpclaw
okay, the sharpclaw blank... it is beautiful, but there som things I dont get, what dose evryonr else think? <font face="Tempus Sans ITC">Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 20:22, December 28, 2018 (UTC) ' They look fine to me. 20:25, December 28, 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) farthest font paw ~ the paw looks broken, it curves in a way that would breake it, and it bends where there wouldnt be any joints that let it bend like that
 * 2) tail ~ the tail liiks like it is coming from its foot, there would need to be a like there to seperate the two parts, but still, that would look weird
 * 3) neck ~ the neck is as wide as the head, and the body, but cat necks are smaller,  and shorter
 * 4) closest front leg ~ the leg joint lookd like it is on its neck, and thatwould be way to high up
 * 5) farthest front leg ~ on the front leg farthest from us at the joint we can see, it comes to a point

I'm quite fond of these, honestly. I'd like to keep them as-is, truthfully

these are ones with some of the least issues in that maybe only the longhaired tail needs tweaking. we dont need to redo every blank. 20:32, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

Sighs these are fine. There is absolutely no reason to go saying every single blank has something wrong with it that means it needs redone. The only one that really, truly needs redone is not this one. <span style="">20:38 Fri Dec 28

Same as reasons as above. 20:47, December 28, 2018 (UTC)