Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

A proposition concerning project vernacular
This is a rather simple proposition concerning one name used in PCA.

I'd like it if Senior Warriors could no longer be called leads.

You see, it may seem like a silly thing to want to change, but here's the reasoning: words are powerful. When a senior warrior is called a lead, it sends the message to new or prospective users that we are in charge, which we are not. We merely have been recognized by the project to have a decent amount of experience, which is reflected in the title of Senior Warrior, and are given the responsibility of approving or declining images. To call us leads is to put us too far above the rest of the project, and as a senior warrior I'm uncomfortable with that.

Comments? 19:30, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

So, do you want there to be no senior warriors at all? I think we just help out the leader and deputy. They can't approve every image or add in every new user all on their own. No, we aren't in charge, but we could shake off the status of being a lead. We'll still be senior warriors and uphold all the responsibilites of being one, but we don't lead the project. I see your point, and I'm open to see what other users have to say. 19:50, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

What gave you the idea that that is what I wanted? No, I just want us to cease being called leads, that's all. 20:01, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I don't care either way. But the keystrokes to type "lead" are a whole lot easier than typing "Senior Warrior," which is probably how the term came about. I think it's up to the individual person as to what they prefer to type, but if you mean official guidelines and things like that, I agree that the official term should probably be used to make it sound more...official. Breeze whisker  20:05, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Why? Senior warriors ARE in charge., Not as much as leader or deputy, but they still are high ranks. At first I had a lot more to say but now I'm dead. XP 20:07, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * This point of view is both incorrect and outright harmful to the project. The leveled listing of the project was always intended to show experience with the tasks of the project, and to assign extra responsibilities to users. It does not indicate that anyone is in the charge of the project. This is because the Project Members should be leading the project via consensus. Leader, Deputy and Senior Warriors only have extra responsibilities. That's all that sets them apart from the rest of the project. Perhaps it was a mistake on my part to borrow from the books for cutesy names for project membership, as people have an unhealthy tendency to take it too seriously. 16:24, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

You hate me, don't you Shell? Jk. I honestly don't care what SW's are called. Just as long as we have them. 20:10, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Nah, don't hate anyone. XD But yeah. Senior warrior's aren't in charge, it's arrogant of us to think we are. We're just here to help guide people along and keep the project moving while contributing to it, and that's the extent of it. 20:13, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

I kinda agree with Icy, and at the same time, I don't really care all that much. XD I think we do kinda have a right to be called leads, but I really don't care all that much if that changes. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  00:19, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, since it's a whole lot easier just to type leads. Keeping in mind that "lead" technically means "senior warriors, deputy, and leader", it's a whole lot easier to type. You're right Shelly, we're not in charge, but we do possess a higher rank (for lack of a better word) than warriors and apprentices. We have the power to approve or decline images, to decide on CBA, and accept new users into the project. Disclaimer: Remember that in no way are senior warriors better than other users just because we have privileges. 00:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

I really don't care either way I never call you guys leads anyway I usually just say SW, so really I don't care. But they are 'leader's' of the project so it makes sense to call them leads. 02:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, SW is a lot easier to type then lead(s). It's just 2 letters! I agree with you Shelly, and I can see why it annoys you. You're not in charge and don't exactly have the right to lead this project. What you do have the rights too and warriors and apprentices can't access, is declining, approving images, CBAing, creating voting forums, etc. Those are the things a leader/deputy would do though, but the only other things leaders/deputies can do that you can't is annoucing new deputies/leaders, and making the final decision for the project. (i probally missed a lot more though.) 23:44, Thu, Dec, 29, 2011

Just a random bit of input from me, concerning another reason the word "lead" shouldn't be used. It's misleading in more ways than just what it implies. It also creates "insider" language that makes the project seem more exclusive and special. It's completely non-intuitive (SW=Senior Warrior is not only intuitive, but a common bit of Warriors Fanon Vernacular). I personally hate the use of the word "lead" by this project.L/D/SW is more descriptive and would at least be intuitive to new members mores than the "Lead". And honestly, why not just type out Leader, Deputy and Senior Warriors. It's not like we pay for bandwidth by the character or anything. Say what you mean, don't use lingo to say what you mean. You could also.. You know... Add the Leader and Deputy to Senior Warrior list (which they technically should be eligible for, anyways, and just use the word SW... It would also save time when a person leaders the Leader or Deputy position in the project, too. 16:20, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

I honestly don't see what the fuss is about, as it's only a word that isn't supposed to be an easier way to type out Senior Warrior/Deputy/Leader, but I'll run with it. How about we call them "Senior Members"? SMs for short? That doesn't seem like it would be difficult to type out, and it doesn't seem completely unintuitive. I dunno. Just a compromise, maybe? 21:58 Sun Jan 1

I'd rather not combine everyone into one category. We're all really not that different, but there should still be a distinguishable line between senior warrior, deputy, and leader. I feel like if we call everyone senior warrior, we're losing what we have as a project. That sounds really stupid, now that I'm reading it again, but I'll stand by it. 00:59, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that we change the rank title. I just suggest that we no longer be called leads, that's all. 01:13, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I know, Shelly, I was referring to other suggestions. 01:29, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Wildheart. Senior Members seems like a reasonably good name. 00:36, Tue, Jan, 3, 2012

Continuing Discussion
The discussion to develop a screening process has been continued here. I think I've designed a basic structure that will please the project, but I want as many as people as possible to help perfect it. Thank you! 04:13, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

Change "Lead Meetings" into "Project Meetings"?
Some of you noticed the recent small argument that occured in the comments of Atelda's SW nomination. In it, Breezewhisker brought up a very good point: one of the biggest problems in this project is lack of communication. I think this could partially be solved by ending "Lead Meetings" (meetings limited to only senior warriors and up) and change them to "Project Meetings". We do have "the next chat" messages at the top of this page, but they are barely attended and haven't been scheduled since October. From here on, I think that important meetings usually only announced to senior warriors, the deputy, and leader, should be planned a week in advance, at least, and should be announced in the project news section, allowing any member of the project that wishes to attend to have a chance to do so.

The senior warriors, deputy, and leader cannot represent the majority of the project. If a majority of the project were allowed to participate in the more important meetings of members, I feel communication of ideas in the project would be much easier. Of course, there's much more that needs to be done about this besides what I'm proposing, but I feel that this sttep could be helpful. 16:08, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree. If all (at least most) of the project's members participated in meetings, we would get more opinions on what would come in the future for PCA. 16:21, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think this'd be a good idea. It can be a bit disorientating when the senior members decide something and you're like, "okay, where'd that come from?" Breeze whisker  00:10, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. And there's also the fact that apprentices and warriors are perfectly capable of forming good ideas, and they should be able to voice them in these meetings. In any case, nothing should be decided as final in these meetings. All things must be done with project consensus, and not just decided by 11 members. 00:12, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Sure Im all for letting everyone contribute to them. Its not like they were ever closed to anyone either, I just got intouch with the leads because its the fastest and easiest way to get a discussion going. As for the planning in a week in advance, doesnt really work. We tried it with the other Porject mettings, and i think we had like...1? Not even that? The talk page of a forum is pretty much the only way to get the whole project a fair chance to contribute, so really, the chats shouldnt happen at all. 00:22, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Alright then, you make a good point. Shall we just end lead meetings? Honestly, we can't decide things there for the project. Yeah, if we want to just chat we can use the IRC, but to schedule a meeting specifically for the purpose of making these decisions, some of which are finalized without consent of the project, isn't something we need to be doing. 00:25, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think planning things in advance is acctually a healthy idea. Everyone isn't going to make every meeting. Just set a minimum number of members that must show up before a meeting will be valid (like... 50%+ of the project, or something). More people will show up if they know about the meetings in advance, and it gives everyone a fair chace to at least know about the meeting (I think setting the date a week in advance is ideal. Or setting them for the same day each month or something). You'll be impressed by how planning them in advance will improve your attendance. 00:44, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree all discussions should be held at the talk page. I rarely go on the IRC anyways, and when I do, no one is on. 00:58, Tue, Jan, 3, 2012

I don't think you need to end having meetings. Sometimes it's easier to throw out ideas if everybody is chatting back and forth at the same time. I think as long as any and all ideas are run through with the project, either in the forum or on the talk page, the percentage of attendance doesn't matter. So really, the meetings become more of a brainstorming session than a decision-making time. Breeze whisker  01:29, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

was it ever really closed off? I mean, it's called a lead meeting, yes, but were only leads allowed? I think the chats should stay, and they should stay on IRC, but maybe we can just make a new talk page section saying we're planning to have a meeting in X number of days? Chances are, it will still mostly be leads in there, but at least we'll be informing the project, and giving them the opportunity to join in. If we have to wait for a lot of the project to get on, we're never gonna have the meetings. So yeah, that's what I think would be best, we don't have to go with it of course. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  05:59, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Even if it wasn't formally closed to people not of Leader, Deputy or Senior Warrior (I personally will not call them "Leads". It's a misleading term that leads to confusion about the ranks and what they mean), using the term "Lead Meeting" implies exclusivity. 16:22, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

DJ: All final decisions should happen on the talk pages, and an opportunity for comment pre-decision making via the talk pages should also happen. Chats are great for brainstorming and initial planning, but finalization should happen through the wiki itself, creating a paper-trail that's indelible. 16:22, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah getting rid of them would help the project become more of a community, but why don't we just add project meetings and have them every month and have a lead meeting every other month or so. 23:27, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

How about if you're on the IRC or chat with another PCA member, you can think of ideas for PCA if you want, and then consult with the rest of the members on the talk page? 01:52, Thu, Jan, 5, 2012

This is a good idea, but one thing concerns me. Timezones. I know the large majority of the Wiki users live in the US, but I live in the UK, and there are timezones all over America too. We would have to make these chats timezone friendl. 10:13, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

One option for dealing with timezones would just be to vary the time every meeting, giving different people a chance to be at each meeting. No decisions should be made by meetings. They should be tools for preparing proposals to solve problems. Proposals should be written and presented in talk/forum following meetings for final (all inclusive) discussion anyways. 15:15, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Good idea Kitsu. 01:10, Sun, Jan, 8, 2012

Question
Please, pardon my newbness in the following question. See in the T&S series, Rowanclaw was shown in greyscale with a black marking on his forhead, and so, me being a noob on things like this, would that count for a alt, or no? And the ref is Into the Woods, pages 21*First Panel* page,23*Bottom Panel* 24, and 25. Maple♥ pool  Mischief brewing 23:30, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes, definitely. Just make it grey with those same markings. 23:53, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes he get an alt, but make him the colour of hiks app image. We agreed that if the colour is unknown it goes to the cited colour with the alt pattern. 01:06, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't seem too natural, though. A ginger cat with a black marking? Why not just make him grey? 01:10, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Just make it really dark ginger. Because if the ginger tabbies depicted without stripes didnt get gray alts, neither should he, and im not willing to get into the whole debate about that again. 01:12, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

This is different, though. He's not shown as ginger without stripes, he's shown in greyscale with a random marking on his forehead. I'm not trying to debate with you, I'd just rather see an alternate with a large difference. 01:20, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, a ginger cat with black stripes is impossible. It is likely they meant a different color for Rowanclaw. I say silver with black stripes. 03:33, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

No, its like not a tabby, its just, like a black smudge on his head. Maple♥ pool  Mischief brewing 02:32, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't even look very gray. With the gray scale, it looks like a pale gray, without the gray scale, it looks like a cream color, or pale ginger. The black marking is smudged across his head, with two sharp points on the righter and lefter side of his forehead. I'd say if he gets an alt, it'd either be cream colored or pale gray colored. 01:23, Sun, Jan, 8, 2012

Dwindling Chararts
Almost all the chararts have been made, reserved or are currently for approval. I remember, two years ago, we were allowed to have two chararts reserved, but was soon changed to one (thus, today's policies). I would like to pose a question and start a discussion. What happens when all the chararts are made? The warriors, senior warriors, deputy, and leader all can tweak and re-do images. But what happens to the apprentices (like myself) who are stuck only doing original artwork until they become warriors? Everytime a book would come out, there would probably be fighting, competition, and hostility, trying to get their reservations up. So, I must ask my fellow PCA members: 'do we have a plan for this scenario? ' 09:04, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Well really there's not much drama when a new book comes out usually. And there's always alts to do if you look hard enough. The project slows down inbetween books, yes, but then it speeds right back up again. I think once the books are over, the PCA will be closed, but till then, I think we'll just have those slow bits, like now. We're gonna have a new series pretty soon, so I'm sure we'll have plenty to do. But for now, you'll just have to be quick to get a chararts. And maybe, just maybe, tweaking will open up to apprentices too if we slow down that much, and still have a lot of tweaks to make. I'm not completely sure, but I think we'll be fine. It's nothing to worry about as far as I see it, but that's just me. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  09:22, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

We still have tons of apprentices to do, and I thought we were redoing the loner blank? And after that, the rogue will probably be redone as well xD And like Paleh said, we're going to have a new series on our hands pretty soon. I think we're fine. 21:58, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Okay then. For some reason I feel political. 22:23, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Remember when the wait for TFW was happening? There was barely any images to do, other then alts, but we survived. 01:56, Thu, Jan, 5, 2012

Also, for the reservations thing, if you can find two apprentices to do, you can reserve two. And after the apprentices are done we might be tweaking/redoing the loner blanks, so we're fine for image right now. 01:59 Thu Jan 5

There's also the fact that art is never finished, only abandoned. I'm sure eventually, when the series does come to a halt, the tweaks system will expand. Frankly, there's more to the wiki than just art. When the art train dries up, the project will shift to maintenance mode and that'll be that. But we're looking at something that's (at the currently time) at least three years off, assuming the Erins announce no new series following those that are announced. 02:10, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Furled Bracken?
This has probably been brought up before, but I do want to know the answer, so I'll ask it now. Should Furled Bracken get a Leader image, a Healer one, or should a new blank be made for him? It seems wrong to leave him as just a Sharpclaw, even if he is the only leader of the ancients that we've seen. We had a healer blank for Stoneteller back when he was the only Healer we'd seen, so why not Furled Bracken? Just wondering. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  09:29, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

We had this debate a few years ago.....the leader then, Bramble, decided for him to not get a healer blank. -- 10:01, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

He was a leader, but not in the literal sense. There was no deputy, no medicine cat, and barely the same apprentices we know now. He may have led a group of cats, but they weren't a true Clan. I don't think he should. 21:59, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Oblivion on this. It's kind of like Scourge. he led a group of cats, but didn't get a leader charart. 22:01, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

If he got one it should be a healer, but I don't think he should, also didn't he give the position to Stone Song? 23:11, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, making an Ancient Leader blank would be fine with me, really. Could be fun. 23:40, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Are the Ancients like BloodClan? If they are and Furled Bracken gets one, would that qualify Scourge too, if they're not a true Clan? Sky-  Lather. Rinse. Obey. 23:44, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

What about an outside-the-Clan-leader blank? Probably not that name... ♫Purplemoon♪   2012! The end of the world?  23:46, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

No, no, I didn't mean like Scourge. Scourge's "Clan" are just a bunch of rogues kept together by fear of Scourge. However, if we do make a blank for the Ancient leaders, then how many would we have? Off the top of my head, I can think of two. 01:04, January 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * is dumb* I is a good idea though, but I spose it wpuld have to wait like the prisoner blank. (if it's agreed to be done.) Sky-  Lather. Rinse. Obey. 01:06, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Why not make a Ancients leader blank? Like I said, we had a Healer blank when there was only one healer. The ancients are an organized group, unlike Bloodclan, so he should get some kind of blank. And why would it have to wait? It'd only be like 2 chararts to make.... ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  03:13, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Furled Bracken and Stone Song were a different rank than just a sharpclaw, they should get either a Healer or another separate blank. Breeze whisker  03:16, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't they know about herbs, though? I don't see why we shouldn't use the healer blank for them. 03:31, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Would they really count as healers though? Cause Half Moon was the first Stoneteller. Are Stonetellers and healers kinda different things? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  09:54, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

i would like to join
hello, im tigerstarrules and i would like to join.

i have made chararts for people, and gotten really good feedback. thankyou Tigerstarrulesyes he does shank you 02:32, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Too many senior warriors? Try not enough.
Well, the proposal train must continue rolling. You guys may notice a theme in my proposals recently: I want to even out the project and make the senior warrior rank less exclusive than is has been. I feel the rank is held too highly above the rest of the project. In reality, we're just members of the project that have been recognized for our experience and handling of the tasks the project presents, and we are trusted with extra tasks because of it.

I feel there are many warriors that are more than competent and experienced enough to handle this job. However, they are denied spots as senior warriors because again and again people declare that there are too many senior warriors.

However, in a recent discussion I had with Kitsufox, she actually opined that the project should be at least 1/4 senior warriors, if not 1/2. Frankly, I agree with her. I think that, at minimum, this project needs to be 25% senior warriors. And, at current count, we have 70 members. That would mean that, instead of the current 9 senior warriors, we need about 17 or 18.

This would not mean lowering the standards of becoming an SW, of course. This would just mean that those that already live up to the standards (and there are many of you) will be given their chance to be elected to the rank.

Honestly, how could we have too many senior warriors anyway? The SWs help keep the project moving by approving images. And if someone is elected that isn't ready for the job, the vote will likely fail anyway. I trust the project to know who to and not to promote. 03:27, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I thought the only reason that we kept the number low was because we might step on each other's toes with edit conflicts and stuff. Otherwise I've never seen any good reason to keep the number low. 03:30, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

That's not much of a reason to deny excellent warriors this promotion, in my opinion. :\ 03:37, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not saying that's my pinion, I just thought that was the reason. 03:39, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I know. ^^ 03:45, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of more SWs. With all the new apprentice images, it can be very tasking to maintain all those chararts for archiving and such. 03:52, January 5, 2012 (UTC) Shadewing

I agree. There really isn't a reason there shouldn't be more senior warriors. And it seems silly to say "no more senior warriors" when CBAing and archiving images is an essential part of the project and you might as well have as many people doing that as you can and still increase your efficiency. Breeze whisker  04:12, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

As an addendum to my opinion (which Shelly quoted correctly), it might be something to consider to limit what part of the membership is counted for deciding what the percent numbers mean. That is to say, so many apprentices (at least used to) fall off the boat, it might be wise not to count apprentice or lower ranks in the figuring for what the "target" numbers. But theirin you also need to consider that it's now easier to move out of the apprentice rank (I still think two approved is too many, and one should be enough, but that's another discussion for another time. One that might become necessary if auto-decline becomes a possibility) so things should buff out pretty well given a little time... 14:16, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I can see why we need more senior warriors. Too much would be like, 40 senior warriors. We need them to get the project to run smoothly. But this would eliminate the number of warriors we have in the project, so to stop that we could lower the requirements slightly for an apprentice to become a warrior. We have 24 warriors right now. If 9 of them were to become a SW, that would leave 15 (I know this sounds stupid), and we have a whopping 35 apprentices, compared to them, the warriors are tiny. Only about 1/2 or 3/4 of the apprentices are active though, so if some were to be removed we'd have around 27 apprentices left. 05:30, Fri, Jan, 6, 2012

Yeah, DJ, but becoming a warrior is pretty simple now anyway, and all members of the project should be contributing evenly regardless. Having more people in a higher rank wouldn't change how much gets contributed each day. And if my screening process proposal goes through, the introduction of a new rank will mean that the apprentice rank may be thinned even further. 15:46, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yep, okay. That gets rid of my concerns now. 00:59, Sat, Jan, 7, 2012

Firestar's Images
Okay, after what happened last time I tried something like this, I thought I'd present my case to the project first before putting him on the redo list.

I think Firestar's images should be redone for the following reasons: Don't try to say I'm out to get Icestorm by suggesting that all of her tabbies be redone, because I'm not. I'm suggesting this because we need to be supplying top notch art to all of our articles, and Firestar's images don't look like any cat I've ever seen. In this case, I don't want to be the one to redo his images. Someone else can do them. I just want to propose that they be redone without getting my head bitten off. 16:46, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Unrealistic color. A fiery ginger cat looks more like this cat and Firestar's images look closer to red.
 * 2) The pale stomach is too smooth and solid looking when it should either fade or be smudged into the rest of his pelt.
 * 3) The stripe pattern. It's bad. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. You could possibly argue that he has a bullseye tabby pattern, but looking at his other images it's clear this is untrue.
 * 4) The ear pink is undefined and purple.

- I agree, I did every single other one of his images and I hate triangle tabbies. I'd be willing to help out with his images since I've already done so. I have a free project. 16:51, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Kay. I'd say reserve an image of his now, Ivy, and if another SW or up agrees just go ahead and do it. 18:46, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'd have to agree as well. Have fun Ivy ^^ 22:27, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

No Firestar, I have to agree on. Those stripes are definitely triangle stripes. Though I gotta say, and I don't really see how the earpink's purple..... 0.o But that doesn't really matter. xD I wanna do one of his images though! *goes to reserve* ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  01:29, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Go for it. 06:12, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Also all his images are different styles...Wait is Ivy doing all of his images? If so ignore this comment xD.. 21:14, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Some Alts for Cats?
In A Clan in Need, page 25, Sandstorm is shown to be a solid pale ginger cat, but also with a white muzzle. In Shattered Peace, page 86, 87 and 88, Spottedleaf is shown to have black stripes and markings, more than looking like a tortoiseshell. Are these too close to their actual description, or do they get alts? 05:49, Fri, Jan, 6, 2012

Sandstorm-no, Spottedleaf- i dont know 14:43,January 6,2012 (UTC)

Yeah, from what was decided before about solid gingers, Sandstorm would be a definitely no, however I'd have to see what Spottedleaf looks like know whether she gets and alt or not, and I don't have the manga, so I can't say. :/ ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  15:18, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

I can't exactly get a picture of her now, but I'll describe it. She is in Ravenpaw's dream with Bluestar and Whitestorm. It looks like she has either a light brown or ginger color pelt, but I can't really tell because it's gray scale. Her stripes are thick and slightly wavy, and they are black. She has a stripe coming from the right of her forehead, one from her upper back down to her chest on both sides, one coming from her belly near her left front leg, one on her back down to her waist (or so) on both sides, one on her left side of bottom and upper left hind leg, one on the base of her tail, one on her tail tip and one on her left ear. There is probally more on her right side, but I can't see that side as she's standing on an angle. I'm terrible at describing things, but if you want, I can uploaded a picture of it. <span style="">02:42, Sat, Jan, 7, 2012

Spottedleaf would be a yes, I think. The picture that is shown in Shattered Peace is nowhere near her actual description. She looks like a pale tabby, if you ask me. 01:58, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, this really does depend on which panel you're looking at. I think it warrants an alt, but that's just my opinion. 02:03, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Unless someone wants to try to fit tabby stripes onto her image, I say go for it. 17:54, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

A deviantArt group for PCA training
It's been mentioned quite a few times, and I decided I really do want to try this out. I'm going to start a DA group for PCA.

I think how it would work will be pretty simple. We could either use the blanks here since we're working officially for the project, or we could make a new set. We could use the group to train apprentices without clogging up the wiki, and we could also use it as a place to show different types of pelt patterns, skin colors, how to make realistic patches, how shading works, etc. We can even make tutorials on how to use GIMP, pixlr, and paint to make chararts.

On top of that, it can just be a place for PCA members to upload art pertaining to PCA, you know, for fun, in a way that wouldn't stick their art into CC as it does here.

Does anyone think they'd be interested in this? And if so, can anyone think of a name for the group? 18:28, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea! Maybe the the group should be called WWiki-PCA-Training? 18:52, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

I'd be interested, though if we use the blanks here, I can see people complaining in the future, about us getting to use the blanks on deviantArt, the people that see them, will probably be mad, because we made them remove our blanks, but we can still use them. I'd prefer to use our blanks, but yeah. I can't think of a name right now though. And WWiki-PCA-Training doesn't right. I think we need a more creative name, sorry if I offended you Moonleaf. <span style="">19:17 Fri Jan 6

I think this is an excellent idea! I would be interested in helping, but if I'm not allowed that would be alright. New blanks, I think, but similar. Maybe like similar to the ones we've got, but one standing like the loner or apprentice, and one sitting like the warrior or leader. 20:23, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

PCA training grounds? Maybe? Not my idea, Kit's. 20:34, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea! -- 21:11, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea but can we still keep the mentor program? And I think it would be fun to make all new blanks, speaking of which I found perfect pictures for the new loner blanks for anyone who wants them. [|Here] [|they] [|are]. 23:04, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

How about, if we're using new blanks, we wait until the loner blank has been chosen and then use the blanks that didn't make it? That way those users who worked hard on a loner blank that didn't quite make the cut can see their blank being used. Just a suggestion ^^ 23:10, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Good idea ^^ I made an DeviantArt account, Wildfire32, and those refrences above 2 seems like the best, I put 1 and 3 there for other views of that pose. 23:42, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

A great idea! When you create the group, can you give me the link so I can join the group? -- 01:00, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I've submitted a group application. It should be up tomorrow. It'll be called PCATrainingGrounds. I'll post a link when I get confirmation for the group. 01:11, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to join it, if I can that is. I made an account a few years ago, and my parents banned me from it for some reason, and I don't know if I'm allowed on it. I'll try though. For communication we could just go from talk page to talk page.

I do have another drawing website if you want to use it. Someone would have to create a blank on there, and lock it so it's just for friends, and we'd all add each other in as friends. It's available for people all over the world, I think the age limit is 13, and by memory, I don't think you need to activate an account. Also there is mods, so people can get banned. You can also create apps there, so we can if we want, that is if we use this website. I made an account there a few years ago too, but I think deviantart might be better in out case. <span style="">01:21, Sat, Jan, 7, 2012

Nah, the good thing about groups in DA is that when something happens in the group, everyone in said group gets a message about it in their DA inbox, so I don't think it'll be an issue. Thanks for the offer, DJ, but DA is just easy to work with and won't require too much extra work to get everyone in. It'll be as simple as clicking one button to join. ^^ 01:25, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

That's okay, I thought that would happen. <span style="">02:30, Sat, Jan, 7, 2012

Alright guys, the group is up! Just go here to join! 03:50, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Dewstar(leaf) would like to join Charart
Hi, this is Dewstar(leaf). Recently I had posted a request to become part of the charart project, and no one had told me I could join, so I waited. Soon I saw that my request has been deleted. I have no idea why it was deleted, so I am posting the request to join charart again. Whoever had deleted my previous request, please tell me why you did that. I would like to know if you simply didn't let me join, or something else. Dewstar(leaf) 23:48, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

It was archived, not deleted. 23:49, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. But why was it archived? People don't usually archive requests. Dewstar(leaf) 00:45, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yes they are. They always are.... 0.o ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  09:56, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

You might have been accepted at not seen it, check the front page. If you aren't there someone could add you in. 12:53, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I was accepted yet, since I checked. If requests are always archived, should I delete this because they already have my request? Dewstar(leaf) 16:24, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

No Leave this here, but just wondering what did you name the section? 19:53, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes us leads archive things and forget to add members in. Accidents happen. *shrugs* 00:46, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I named the other section the same as this (Dewstar(leaf) would like to join charart). I'll just leave this here, and hope that the Ls, SWs and Ds won't forget me. Dewstar(leaf) 18:18, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Join Request ~ Kitty2350
Can I join as an apprentice? <font color="white" face="Rockwell Extra Bold" style="background:Lime">Kitty♥cat <font color="Blue">•Cloudpaw• 02:01, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I added a separate heading. 02:08, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sol's Father
Sol's father is a light coloured tom. If he were to get a charart, I don't think he'd get a white/light gray one, because you can clearly see the white tortoiseshell patches on Cinder and Sol, so I think he'd be more cream than gray. Though, you colourpick off the image right? Anyways, if he were to get a charart, what colour would he be depicted as? <span style="">04:28 Sat Jan 7

He'd be light gray, the same color as his comic image. Like Sunfish, though she's likely a ginger cat, she has to be depicted as gray until we get a color confirmation for her (which will likely never happen). 07:02, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Join Request - Thistleshine
I'm posting this on behalf of Thistleshine due to the fact she cannot edit the talk page. Thistleshine would like to join PCA. =3 06:43, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'll add her in. :) I know you got probably all the links you need in the chat, but I'l give them to you again here. Here's the guidelines of the project, and the apprentice tutorial. Also, we have a mentor program in the PCA. If you would like a mentor, just put in a request here. Welcome to the project. ^^ ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  06:55, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Weedwhisker
If Spottedpaw and Birdsong, two of the most unrealistic cats in the series, are torbies, could Weedwhisker possibly be a tortie too? Just curious. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  10:26, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. 18:26, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

i think he needs stripes ,19:37,January 7,2012 (UTC)

He is technically a tortie. But torties can have very small patches, like he does. I say the charart is fine. 21:13, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Kitty2350; Join?
Can I join as an apprentice? <font color="white" face="Rockwell Extra Bold" style="background:Lime">Kitty♥cat <font color="Blue">•Cloudfoot• 13:10, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Warrior blanks
Well i want ask something: On the PCA main page, in the gallery are warrior blanks in gif file, i think someone should move them to the png file ? ,20:29,January 7,2012 (UTC)

I think we had this discussion before...? <span style="">01:55, Sun, Jan, 8, 2012

The file type doesn't affect the usage of the blanks. You can just re-save them as a .png on your computer when you download 'em. 01:56, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Guess who's back
Yep, you heard that right. Icestorm's back and ready to contribute again, thanks to the help of her mom's really hot guy who fixed her computer. 23:41, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Icey! XD <span style="">01:54, Sun, Jan, 8, 2012

ICEY!! Welcome back! :3 02:25, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Unrealistic Cats?
Alright, there has been some discussion about this, and sorry if someone has already tried this before, if so, completely ignore this. I have recently seen that we have been, well, changing the descriptions of the cats. Like with Leafstar, we decided not to give her cream patches to make her more "realistic". Or Birdsong, where her having ginger flecks only on her head would not be "realistic" so we had to add them all over her, thus changing her description a tad. In my opinion, I think this is wrong. We are here to provide information straight from the books, not bend it, even if it is just a slight change of things. I know it isn't such a big deal, but it bothers me, and possibly others, too. Now, I understand that sometimes we have to make these changes. Like with Firestar, he had an unrealistic tabby pattern, so we changed it. But it still matched his description. In my opinion, I think we should change these cats back to their original descriptions. Now, I know people will disagree with me on this, but I merely wanted to hear what other people thought about this, so please don't take this the wrong way. 03:14, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I sorta agree with you on this. It's like we're assuming their descriptions now. I said something like what you did on Weaselfur's apprentice on the approval image 03:34, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Leafstar isn't described with cream patches, actually. She's a brown and cream tabby. Nowhere in her description does it mention patches. And Firestar's being changed for more than his tabby pattern. 03:50, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

On topic, though, I do see why it'd be a problem to make chararts that deviate from cat desctiption (though I have not seen a cat's description on their page changed thus far to suit a charart, so...). But on tabby stripes, I still prefer that we use realistic patterns as often as we can. We want to produce qualtiy art that looks as close to real cats as we can, and just making up some pattern that would never be seen in real life isn't accomplishing that. 03:57, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Unless something unrealistic is specifically described in the books, we should always error on the side of realism. It's safer to assume "normal cat" if it's not specifically described than anything else. 15:13, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I hate how Billystorm and other ginger cats have stripes, I think the Erins would have said ginger tabby but he is called a ginger and white tom. 15:30, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

So you'd rather over half of the ginger cats look like goldfish? 15:48, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

It is genetically impossible for a ginger cat to not be a tabby. 15:50, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

First off, I want to say thank you, Misty. I've been seeing this as well and it has bothered me to no end. We're deviating too much from the cats' original description. And if you want to argue genetics, Shelly, it's also gentically impossible for cats like Blackstar to exist. So are we going to change his images to make them more "realistic"? Every time I've mentioned this before, I've been shot down with the whole "Then how come we have stripes on the gingers?" I am personally against the ginger stripe thing, and I really think we should get rid of those. 19:38, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

In Blackstar's case, his pattern is specifically described many times. With any other case, as Kit said, we should assume these cats look realistic. That means stripes on the ginger cats. 19:51, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well in the series is fiction and in the manga's he has no stripes, and I read here 'all cats are genetically tabbies' so again we could redo all the charaters and make them tabbies if you like but I think it's a waste of time and there is no need for it. 22:09, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, all cats have the genes and have a tabby M on their heads. Ginger cats just always have obvious stripes. Ones you can see without putting a few hairs under a microscope. 22:47, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

And Mistypebble, I find it odd that you're protesting us making realistic chararts when, at this very moment, you're redoing Songbird's charart for realism. 22:57, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Can i join?
I would love to join im good at it. Also this wiki is so packed full of info i can barely edit! So i wish to join here. I have a weak number of edits :( and im currently having problems with saving charcats. I use gimp 2.8. 14:51, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Can I join?
Im decent at charart...but I can learn better,I was wondering if I could join? 16:27, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sootfur
I don't know if this was brought up before, but in Twilight just before Sootfur dies he has both his hind legs broken. It is on the pages during the badger attacks, I can't remember which ones, but should this be added to his description and should his warrior image be tweaked? Feel free to disagree. 15:24, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, his legs being broken would have probably been an injury that would have mostly healed if he hadn't been killed soon after. At worst he'd be made to retire with the name of "Crookedlegs" or something. I don't think it qualifies for a change. 15:51, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

That's a hard one, there is a possilbilty Leafpool couldn't have healed him if he lived, and he died with the injury so I'm leaning towards yes... I don't know... 21:26, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Bluestar
Could we tweak Bluestar's images? Her images for her main description, which aren't the Alts. are more purple than blueish-gray. I don't know if this has been brought up before,but I just wanted to ask. 20:36, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I do have to admit her images do apper to have some purple in there. If the leads decide to tweak, they should make it a bit grayer. 20:39, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, her images should be a little more gray. I think the color should be closer to this 20:54, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, her images have been bugging me for a long time. I have no idea the color was changed from the old images. But I agree with mountainheart too :P 20:57, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, she bothers me. Blue-grey cats are only slightly blue. They're really mostly grey and only look blue in the right lighting. Her blue is just way to saturated. I would really be that hard of a tweak, I wouldn't think, just an adjustment layer would probably fix it. Breeze whisker  21:14, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

That would mean tweaking Mistystar and Stonefur, too, wouldn't it? Not that it's a bad thing. We should embrace work, not avoid it. 21:31, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Stonefur's fine. Mistystar Im not sure. She looks kinda saturated to me too. Maybe not 21:38, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Mistystar could look grayer, but she is fine for right now. She can get tweaked after Bluestar so they have matching colors. 21:41, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with BlueOrca and Mountainheart. I was thinking about if they were tweaked whether or not their colors would still be simalar.

Oh okay thank you for answering my question and I think that Mistystar and Stonefur are good though. 23:18, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Erm, I always thought they looked fine. 23:38, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Firestar
In the current images on Firestar's page, I think his fur color looks a bit darker then it used to be, almost a dark ginger color. I think this should be changed as Firestar is not a dark ginger cat. And I also think that his tabby stripes could be a lighter shade.Silverstar SC 23:32, January 8, 2012 (UTC)Silverstar SC

It's because we're tweaking it. If you read our discussion you'd know  23:37, January 8, 2012 (UTC)