Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Mentor Program
Broken record here, but the discussion was archived before anybody really gave any suggestions. Assessments need to be figured out for the mentor program if we're going with the layout and system I suggested a while back. I've updated the draft, but the assessments are still undecided on. I was thinking something like this;
 * Basic charart knowledge
 * Correctly sized blanks
 * Shading
 * Earpink
 * Eyes
 * Solid cats
 * Colored
 * White
 * Black
 * Two patterns of choice
 * Natural pelt colors
 * Basic pattern and pelt knowledge
 * White cats
 * Black cats
 * Bicolor cats
 * Acceptable tabbies
 * Tortoiseshells
 * Flecked/Speckled
 * Mottled/dappled
 * Basic image tweaking knowledge
 * Shading tweaks
 * Blurred lineart fixing
 * Color tweaks
 * Basic pattern altering (adding striped, white, ect.)

Along with perhaps a link to a final assessment image, uploaded to the apprentice's PI or to a site like Iaza or something similar, and a SM can judge whether the apprentice is ready to graduate, rather than just approving any graduation request posted. Let me know what you guys think, and if you have any other suggestions for things to be changed on the draft before it's put into use. 09:37, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I honestly don't think we somebody needs to match all of these. Heck, as a SW doubt I could even assess somebody in their mottled/dappled or flecked/speckled cats. I think just like, say, a solid cat and one other type of pattern would be all that's needed. Otherwise that's also a lot to assess for an optional program. 04:00, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Mmm true I suppose.... hmmm.... Well I do think all the tweaking's neccesary, but maybe not the other things. Sooo few users know how to properly tweak when they first become a warrior, I think that's something they should learn. However yes, probably not all the patterns, maybe just one or two patterns of the mentor's choice? 04:10, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with this...and I quite like it. I think a basic rundown on each of the styles is a good thing for each apprentice to know. Like, they don't need to be able to master the skills, but I think they should know the basics. I fail with mottle, speckled, ect, so I'm not that useful and my tabbies aren't natural. xDD. I also think that teaching them how to properly tweak an image would be nice.

All in all, yeah, these topics would be good to teach, and perhaps a brief lesson would be a good idea, but I don't think it's required they should know it by heart in order to graduate. A solid, and one or two other styles is good enough. And it shouldn't just be assessed by the mentor. Just like in Warriors, there's normally another cat or two helping out.

Though I like the idea of having the final assessment by another user, it'd only work if we have enough active users participating in the mentor program, which I'm not sure we do right now. Perhaps the heads could do it until we get more active in there (if we ever do....)? 05:05, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Updated the list up there for anybody. 05:09, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also, on a slightly different note, what do you guys think of upping the maximum apprentices per users up to three? There are so few active mentors lately, if we start really getting on top of the mentor assignments, there'll be no open spots for aew apprentices soon. 22:20, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also, if we choose to keep the apprentice limit how it is now, what will be done with all the apprentice requests up right now? There are far too many to assign mentors, but it's rather clogged up on there right now. 01:46, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm... I think that mentors should be able to take on more than two apprentices if and only if they're confident enough and sure they can handle it. I don't want to see mentors taking on three or four apprentices at a time if they can't handle it, because that leaves the rest of us to pick up the slack.

Mmmhm *nods* Perhaps just make the limit totally up to the mentor? So they can choose how many they can handle? 01:50, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I wanna get this rolling guys, any comments on things that need to be changed before this is put into place? If put into place as is, the page will be changed to fit the layout on my draft page linked above, the non-strikes assessments will be used, one of the two heads will join the mentor in assessing the apprentice upon graduation, at least till we get more active mentors, mentors will be allowed to choose the amount of apprentices they're willing to take on, and a think that's it.... So guys, suggestions, last minute comments? Or do I have the ok to go ahead and put this into use now? 17:08, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I'd say go ahead and start it on up.. I really have nothing else to add. As long as they're able to handle it, a mentor should be able to take on as many apprentices as they so choose.

The Softpaw Blanks
Mmkay, since I get shot down every time I bring this up on the approval page, I feel I should bring this up here.

I have nothing but love and respect for Ivy, but five months is too long for any image to be up for approval, even blanks. The blanks are, in my opinion, still nowhere near being done, and I think they should be passed on to someone that will be able to finish them while still keeping the pose Ivy came up with. To dispell any thoughts that I might want the honor of making the blanks, no, I'm not asking to take these over, and I don't want to. I just want them to get done.

So that's what I have to say. Be angry at me all you want, I don't think we should devote almost half a year to an image, even blanks. 21:37, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to offend Ivy or hurt her feelings, but I really do agree completely. I did suggest a while back that they should be given two months, and that was kinda thrown out the window. But in any case 5 months is just too long. Of course the pose should be kept, since that is what we all voted on, but they need to be passed on to somebody... I'm sorry Ivy. 22:10, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

sorry Ivy ;.; I agree with Shelly. It's been too long, and the blanks actually aren't really the ones I fell in love with all those months ago, they're completly different. I'm extremely sorry, Ivy. ;.; 03:49 Thu Jan 17

Loonie and I were thinking of this a bit ago. Ivy, you're talented and I love you, but for the good of the project we have to get these approved quickly. Your style will be kept, because it is a creative pose, but it's best for someone else to try and take them on. I'm sorry, ilu. 20:20, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

They are beautiful Ivy, and I'm sorry to say this but I agree with everything said above. Five months is too long. It's for the best for someone else to take them on. 00:33, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

You know... I won't comment on this, as I have mixed feelings towards this for multiple reasons. I'll say this, however. I'll go with whatever the project decides. I like the blanks, and the progress made recently is quite good, but, it's not up to me, and I don't want to get into arguments over it.

I have to agree. Sorry Ivy, but it's taken too long and they still aren't close to done. They really should be passed on to somebody else. 03:21, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, more than ten days later and no one has presented a reason not to pass the blanks on, what shall we do? 04:04, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it is counterproductive for a user to be working on blanks for five months with little improvement. However, I also see it as counterproductive for that user to lose five months of her work. No doubt, I recognize that there are several members in PCA who can most likely redo the blanks with the same pose, but they can't with the same idea in mind as Ivy had. Had the trend between December 12th and January 10th gone on longer, I would be in favor of handing these blanks off to someone else, but because the uploads from January 17th to the present have much improved in my opinion, I would like to see Ivy complete the job. 04:21, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, scratch out my last post. I agree with Teldy. Ivy's worked so hard on making the blanks so far, so why not let her finish the job? It'd be 5 months wasted if they were declined. 13:54, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well if we choose to let her keep the blanks, I think an official time limit should be put on them, just in case. While I agree they have improved recently, they're quite far from the original blanks we all voted for honestly... the only thing that's really the same is the fact that it's running, and a cat could be shown running in a lot of ways. Honestly, I'm sticking to my opinion that they should be handed off, though I do feel bad that 5 months of work would be lost. But if she keeps them, what do you guys think about one more month? Past that is just too long in my opinion. That'll be over 6 months. If they're not approved by then, I think that they'll be handed off. 07:03, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Paleh. While they have improved, it's still taking too long. Six months is a good number, since past that is just way too much. I'd love to see her complete the job also, but not if it's going to take so that much time. 04:34, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Defining Descriptions?
Shelly brought this up on Ferncloud's redo nomination, and I think this is a good idea. So I'm gonna steal it. It's a pain in the bottom when people go start arguing whether something's dappled enough, or is it a proper tabby, or is it black or dark grey.

I think it would be pretty simple to do. We could use a warrior charart and fill it in, flat-colored, with a basic example of what the description means for the project, and then maybe a couple "no-nos" - similiar patterns that do not fall under the description. For instance, we could present a tabby (which would just be as simple as the guidelines could possibly allow) and give and example of, say, a spotted cat and a tortoiseshell so that the difference could be seen.

It might take some work, and the patterns might need to go through approval or voting, but in the long run, this would protect the consistency of the images and articles. Suggestions please, because I'm sure there's a better way this page could be done, but since I liked the idea I figured I'd get the discussion rolling. 19:50, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we need image examples, would make it way too limited. Most of these things can't be shown with just one picture for it, like for example mottled. It could have a lot of different styles. Or tabbies. I think we should just have a list of text descriptions very clearly defining what's what and what's not acceptable, and so on. But I do like the idea of defining this so there are no more arguments on it. I just don't think images are the way to go. 05:51, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Like Paleh, I'd prefer text definitions. Idea stealer. Visual examples are fine in the apprentice tutorial, where it's a given that the examples are just basic representations for what you can do to make a charart, but in something like this it would appear way too limited to have visual representations. 07:02, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, what about for those who are more visually inclined, such as users like myself? Some people have a hard time visualizing what you tell them and it's easier to show them. I'm for a visual showing what is acceptable and what's not 00:37, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

What Ivy said is basically why I suggested images. As long as it's stated that it's possible patterns could vary, images aren't limiting. It would certainly be a lot easier to show somebody a pelt pattern than tell them it, since people tend to see different things in their mind when given a description - which is why we need the page in the first place: because everybody's visualizing different things when it comes to a description. 00:51, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

But a lot of different things could fit into a description and still be considered mottled, tabby, ect., as they should. Using images limits it way too much, espiecally for newer users who don't understand they don't have to follow the image exactly. If you absolutely must have visual examples, perhaps we could simply list pictures of real cats that fit the description. Since people's styles are so different. I still think we'd be better just having text personally. 06:53, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I, like Ivy, learn better when there's a visual representation of something that I should make. Take for example mottled and flecked. Unless you show me a picture, I'm going to have a very vague idea of what it should look like. I think, perhaps a very basic example of what each pelt style could look like would be a good idea, and perhaps link to other, already approved images, and say for more examples, check here and here, ect. Take for example, tortie cats. You could give a very basic example (maybe showing how colors should lay with one another, different methods of blending them...ect), but link to cats like Fernshade, Spottedleaf, Poppyfrost, or Larksong, and say that these are also examples, despite them not looking the same.

I can't learn anything with just text. I need something visual to go along with the text. I learned how to make torties and other styles from looking at the pictures, and modifying them with my own ideas. Who's to say that others can't do the same?

People can always look at images on the wiki to see different styles. these are definitions of what's acceptable and what's not. But the definitions can't be displayed in one picture, and would look different depending on who did it. Like I said, if we must have images, I think we should have actually photos of cats of that pattern. Nothing else. There's just too many things that vary between individual artists' styles to be able to ask someone to make a definition image that will really be a guide for what the pattern should look like. I do not under any circumstances think any artist should make these things. 19:44, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

And also, approved images aren't always perfect, and again have very many things that are simply from style alone and wouldn't be part of the definition. It makes no sense to me to use them for this. 19:45, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Actual cats is a good idea. It would be loose enough. But I do think that we must have images, since different interpretations of words, I repeat, is the reason we have these issues. With art, it's much harder to misinterpret an image than it is a bunch of words. We use images to prove points all the time, I don't see how this is any different. 04:28, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

-sigh- After a few arguments now, I think it would be a good idea to include color in these definitions, just to clear things up. Again, probably cat pictures as just a color block would be too limited. 21:54, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I am absolutely against defining colors. All that does is nail down any remnants of creativity we have left. You guys got up in arms when people started wanting realistic chararts because it destroyed creativity, why would we go to this? And color is intangible and fuzzy, not something easily defined. A ginger cat can look brown but still be ginger because that's their genes. I'm fine with giving a base description and examples of patterns, but no, absolutely not when it comes to colors. There are a million shades of light brown and no one should be restricted to the few on the list. On that note, these ought to be tossed. They aren't just inaccurate, but they encourage apprentices to limit themselves to just these colors, and we decided long ago that it's artist's choice on pupil placement. 03:35, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

If not done right defining patterns does the same. If done right it'll show the range of color. I specifically said not a block or anything cause it'd be way too limiting. Honestly, it's a very loose definition. I'm not asking people to color pick from something. I'm saying we should have some kind of reference to use when unsure. There's no need to get up in arms just cause this was suggested after the whole brown thing. .-. I actually suggested that cause it was simply another disagreement about color after many. Need I bring up Oakheart's tawny alt? x.x

As for the tuts, no. Most of the amazing PCA members I know learned from those at the start, and wouldn't know how to do eyes or earpink at all if they hadn't. It doesn't say anywhere that they have to follow the chart, it's just there for help. I wouldn't be opposed to an update with more variation and more accuracy, but getting rid of it is a no. 03:52, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * I linked to the part of the tutorial about Ear and Eyes, not the tutorial as a whole. Is this why you two were complaining at me in the chat? Of course I don't want the entire tutorial tossed out. I want it revamped, but on that one section completely tossed. 03:56, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Gah Oakheart that took wayyyy too long anskasfsaf. Anyways. No, we're not getting rid of the charts. Not in the least bit. They provide a basic example of how to use the tools/shading placement/eyes, ect. A user can branch off from there if they wish (as users like myself, Paleh, and multiple others have). It's there for a starting point, or just a simple idea as to how something might be done. It is no way, shape, or form considered mandatory to use anything on that tutorial. It's there to help. I wouldn't be able to do anything without that page, and look where I am now. It's staying. Perhaps a fixture of some of it...but it's not being gotten rid of. Just...no.

Also, I wasn't referring to the whole tutorial. If you'll read my post again, you'll notice I only refer to eyes and earpink. .-. 04:03, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I do like the charts and I used them all the time when I was an apprentice and learning how to do everything. Personally, I think the goal of the tutorial should be to give apprentices/starting charartists a starting ground because when you're just starting out and someone says "blur the shading on the haunch, thicken it on the back, and make the ear-pink paler" that could be really confusing. Like Shelly said earlier, I'd rather not specify colors; like with the ear-pink chart, but something that occured to me was to maybe try a gradient between what could be considered realistic prepares to be shot for idea  To find a middle ground for the shading charts, maybe we could have a shaded sphere or shape that resembles a cat's shoulder if we decide to revamp the shading tutorial personally, I loved those as an apprentice Hides from rages. As for the descriptions, I like the idea of using outside-the-wiki photos and pictures since they offer a wider range of color and pattern and can be interpreted in several different ways. 04:18, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'm against removing ''anything. ''People each have their own ways of learning, so why not have them all? The tutorials are a good step-by-step description, plus videos for people who like to follow along, and examples for people who like to base their work off of something. As for the limiting, ''why? ''Artists should be able to use any color or style they want.. and each of them have their own styles :p The charts are helpful, yes, but you shouldn't be made to use the ''exact shade of earpink for every ginger cat. ''I followed the charts when I didn't know right from wrong, yes, but now I understand which colors go to which. Some new users do not understand the concepts which is why the charts and tutorials should be kept. Everyone is different, is what I'm saying, and we all learn from different things. I don't think we should remove anything, but you can add whatever the hell you want to. I barely understand what goes on here anymore about realism and all that, so just do what you want.

Why are we striving so much for "perfection" anyways? We're getting the job done and that's what matters. We're not graded on realism and perfection. Everyone has their own unique way of doing things. Plus, the charts have helped us for such a long time in the past, so why get rid of them now? apologize if I'm off-topic. I didn't read all the posts thoroughly. 21:33, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Kay we're getting a tad off topic now, so if you guys wanna make changes to the tut, please make a separate discussion about it. Seems we've strayed from the definition subject quite a bit now. :b 07:14, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Tutorial Approval
This is something I've been meaning to suggest for a while. Cloudy just reminded me about it, so I figure now would be a good time to bring it up while it's still on my mind. I think we need some sort of approval process for the apprentice tutorials. As it stands, any tutorial can just be posted up, regardless of whether it's actually correct or not. I don't want to offend anyone, but we do have some tutorials that are teaching things incorrectly. I don't want that to happen, seeing as so many users looking at them don't know enough to know what's to be followed from there, so they'd just think everything was fact.

I think the talk page of the tutorials should be used as an approval place for them. They can be posted there, and users can leave suggestions on making it better, or if something's been left out or is incorrect, and then it can be approved, just as a normal image would. Seeing as this is teaching new users how to get a normal image approved, I do think they should have to go through some kind of screening before being posted. Perhaps the images for it could simply be posted on the user's PI or something, so the current tutorial image won't get cluttered with tutorials that haven't been approved.

What do you guys think? 01:07, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

If they're incorrect, then yeah. Just wondering, though, does this apply to the video I just posted up, was something wrong with it? 01:40, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

No, I doubt that, Ivy. There are multiple sections within that tutorial that are outdated, or incorrect and really should be changed. I agree that they should be approved first, since some might be doing something that goes against what should actually be done. You're welcome. ouo

No Ivy, it has nothing to do with your video. :b Like cloudy said there's just outdated things, and some thing that include some of those "myths" I busted a little while ago (as well as some I forgot to bust...). And plus I wanted to suggest this before there were any tuts that needed to be fixed. It's just something that would be a good idea to do in the future, as they're teaching users how to make images that will be approved. They shouldn't be questionable in any way. 01:57, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Question.
Are we allowed to offer up charart for characters that are not in a book but are upcoming, so long we know their appearance? 00:34, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Color Comparisons
Well since we've made no progress on the color defining thing I suggested above, I'd like to suggest something new. After looking at a few things that warriors compare colors to to describe them, I'm starting to think we shouldn't accept color comparison descriptions at all for chararts. Things such as bracken colored, dirt colored, fox colored, ect. There was so much variation when looking for that, and some being totally different descriptions for a cat, and not just a different darkness or brightness. For example bracken. Bracken could be green, of course, a bright bright golden color, a dark red color, a golden brown-ish color, or a very dull desaturated gold. And let's not get into the variation on how different dirt can look. So I'd like to propose not accepting chararts of these descriptions anymore, especially not alts, because it's just not giving us a real color to work with. I'm sure you could compare it to say, the shades of orange or ginger, but really, think about how some dirt could be black nearly, and some a gray-brown, and some just a really light brown. Those are totally different descriptions it could mean, not just a slightly different shade of a color like gingers. So unless we can all agree on a definition for these odd comparison colors, which I just don't think will happen with all the variations, I don't think we should accept them.

Thoughts?

I agree with this. I think we should stick to specific descriptions, like ginger, black, tortoiseshell, etc. Like Paleh said, there are so many different colors for just bracken, let alone the pelt colors a fox could have. It's possible that the object could even already match the current description, and that would mean we're just making the exact same image over again. I agree that these shouldn't be accepted and we should stick to the actual pelt descriptions. 04:25, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Timelimit on Tweak Reservations?
This is something that's been bothering me for a while that a tweak will be reserved and crossed out of the list but not put for until a week or sometimes a month later and I don't think that's quite right. Though I know an OA of an image would have an easier time tweaking, having to wait almost a month for the tweak to be done and holding it off from everyone else who may be capable of making the necessary adjustments just seems a bit unfair and unproductive. Thoughts? 04:33, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well crossed out on the list doesn't necessarily mean anything except that it was once reserved since so few people keep up with the withdrawals, declines, and given up images after they've been reserved. It being crossed out on the list doesn't mean someone else can't reserve it. However that list should be kept a bit more up to date, even if it doesn't restrict anybody. And I've seen little or no people who've surpassed the normal week limit on image reservations for the table, but if that's what you're talking about, then the best solution is just to have tweaks have dates too so they can be watched for being reserved too long. But the week limit is in place for all images already, though it's not specified for tweaks in the guidelines currently.

Sun Trail Characters
Okay, guys. As you all know, there's a new book out, with tons of new characters. They're supposed to be "ancient cats", in a sense. However, I've noticed that a lot of you are reserving sharpclaw images, or even a few warriors. Guys, let me clarify. They are not called sharpclaws within the book, and they're certainly not called warriors. Guys, unless there's a cite for their rank, they don't get images. Anyone who reserves a sharpclaw or a warrior and posts it with no cite for their rank will have their images declined.

Unless you've gotten a cite from Vicky or Kate or Cherith or someone like that who calls them sharpclaws, they're not. So, there's your reminder not to post them, or else they will be declined on the spot. I was looking forward to them too...so...you guys aren't the only ones.

I know this is like the solution everybody has for everything, but should we make a mountain cat blank? In the allegiances, they are referred to as “Cats of the Mountains,” not “the Ancients” or “the Tribe,” which seems to be sufficient enough evidence that they are a group united together, and that they are different than the Ancients or the Tribe, even if their leader is still called a Healer. If not, I think we should give them all rogue or loner blank, for the reason above that they are obviously not Ancients, Tribe cats, Clan cats, or house cats.

Or we could go back to the discussion of a “no-rank” blank now that we have like twenty more cats that could fit said blank. Or even something like a “pre-Clan” blank, which would encompass all of the cats that journeyed to or lived in the forest territories before the Clans began - with or without a mountain cat blank to designate those from the mountains. This just seems to me like way too many articles that wouldn’t have the character images they should, especially if more mountain cats are introduced later or other cats found in the forest aren’t considered rogues or loners (and just one or two being called rogues or loners doesn’t mean all of them are). They shouldn’t just sit there if there’s a reasonable way we can give them images. Sorry if I’m missing any facts. I haven’t read ST yet. 21:26, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but the mountain cats were previously Sharpclaws, then evolved into presumably prey-hunters/cave guards. I forget the exact details. But I agree with Breezy on the fact that they should get some sort of blanks, since they all have complete descriptions. I think a pre-clan blank would be a bit too broad, but I'm kinda leaning towards the sharpclaw solution But no, I'm not suggeting it, not going to defend it right now. Waaayyy too tired for a full out debate now. And i haven't read the book yet Did Half Moon and co. establish the prey-hunter/cave guard system before they left? 23:38, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind an ancient tribe blanks, but the thing is, I'm pretty sure they do have ranks, just unmentioned. So what if they were eventually confirmed in rank, either by vicky or in a later book? A whole blank and a bunch of images would go to waste. If I didn't think they did have a rank I'd have no problems with this at all, but I just don't know about risking it.... The preview originally said Sharpclaws, but it was changed in the book later, so I'm really not sure what to think of that. Vicky did confirm that they hadn't split up into cave guards and prey hunters yet when I asked about them before the book was released, but she said nothing against them being sharpclaws, which confuses me more. I honestly do think they have a rank that we have blanks for, and I don't want a bunch of images to go to waste. So I don't know, just keep in mind I guess, if we do make blanks, that there'll be a sliver of a chance that the rank will b confirmed and the blanks and images will go to waste.

Well, a lot of the cats were described as delicate so that gives me the sense that Vicky might've been indicating Prey Hunter, but again this isn't confirmed. Maybe wait a week or two and see if PC or PW come up with any ideas Idk who does ranks.... D: I'm such a Derpywind!! 01:52, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think a no-rank blank would still be our best bet. Since it'd be useful in more than just this situation. We get cats all the time that are in rank limbo or just have no rank stated. 01:56, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe waiting a couple weeks to see if an Erin says anything about their ranks, but if none of them say anything I really think we should find a way to give them blanks. Even if the images are temporary, at least there will be something on their articles. For all we know, it could be a year or two before their ranks are even mentioned. I agree that a no-rank blank would be a good idea, since we could give other cats like Slant a rank at the same time. It could be hard work down the drain if their ranks are confirmed, but at least with a no-rank blank it could be used again in the future. 04:54, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

The idea of a no-rank blank seems fine to me. This way we'd get all of the cats who also don't have a confirmed rank, but have positive descriptions, along with these new characters. 05:01, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Mmm, for the other blanks mentioned, they may never get used if anything is confirmed, so I am highly against that, but we could use the no-rank blank. Alternatively, though I have not read the book, the cats could get loner images if they're friendly (which they seem to be in the prologue). I'd be fine with either one, honestly. 05:02, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Quite honestly I'm strongly against the no-rank blank. It's like having a no gender or no color blank. We need to have all the information, and otherwise it's just an excuse to make a charart. For the mountain cats it's a different case, but I really think the group itself should get it's own blank if anything instead of having a no-rank blank. Plus the no-rank blank would be temporary on a lot of cats, since every cat technically have a rank of some sort, and it simply hasn't been confirmed. As soon as that rank is confirmed, the image for that cat would go out the window. And yes, I agree with Whiskey that we should wait a couple weeks to see if the Erins say anything or possibly if anything's found in the book. But the ancient tribe blanks would be the only thing I would support. A no-rank blank kinda defeats the point of having blanks that are specific ranks at all (which I do question about being needed, but I'm sure nobody would like getting rid of all rank blanks). An ancient tribe blank could sorta be considered a rank, kinda like loners, it's an affiliation and a rank if the tribe's confirmed to have no other ranks. And currently we have all of about two cats outside the sun trail cats that would actually benefit from the no-rank blank, and that's Slant and Fall. And I'm not even sure both have descriptions, if memory serves only one does. The StarClan blank has basically become the solution for all the other cats without ranks, as all of them were seen in StarClan.

Hi
can I be added back into the project please? 04:09, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Joining
Can I join as a kit? Robin fur  23:30, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Re-join
ASDF

I forgot about PCA for the longest time x.x But, could I rejoin? I'll try to be a bit more active, not be a derp like I was before ouo Spottedpool AutumnClan (talk) 00:27, March 8, 2013 (UTC)