Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

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=Discussion=

Apprentice Tutorial: Paint.NET
On the apprentice tutorials there are some pictures of the tool bar in Gimp and Pixlr. But I also think that somebody should do that same thing with Paint.NET. A lot of people use paint and if they´re having problems they can refer back to it. Thoughts? 21:18, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

I think that there should be a picture of the tools for paint.net. Even photoshop and sumopaint. I remember there was discussion about having sections for each program on the apprentice tutorials - what happened to that? o.o 03:28, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I remember that discussion. o.e It would help if there were pictures of the tools for all (well, most) of the editing programs, and I still support the "revamp" of the apprentice tutorials. 07:12, 14, 07, 2012

I'm not sure what happened to that discussion...but I know Paint.NET was mentioned in it... I think. If someone who knows what they're doing (and knows how to use Paint.NET) wants to go ahead and make something with the tools and stuff on it, go ahead. There might already be something on the wiki, I'm not sure. I'm strictly GIMP, and I don't have the patience (nor attention span xD) to help with tutorials.

So we agree that somebody should do it? And maybe other programs because our members have a very wide variety of programs to use. 16:54, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

I say go for it. 02:24, 15, 07, 2012

So do I. We want the best for our tutorials. ;) 18:52, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

What about the "revamp" of the tutorials? And, I think it would be good to also add the tools for sumopaint, and photoshop. 22:26, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if someone uses those editing programs, I say they could just go and add them into the tutorials. I remember a basic example of the revamp was ment to look like this. Maybe if several users want to work on it they could. 03:21, 16, 07, 2012

Ahem *cough* Sorry, that's my fault. I was in charge of working on that and kinda got distracted with a bunch of other projects I was in the middle of... Maybe that can be up for revamp while the mentor program is being revamped. Both apprentice help pages updated at once. 11:52, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Kit Chararts
So I noticed everyone was having kit blanks (ect.,) for like "inferring" (sorta) and I wondered if these two got kit images. "Get off him! Ratscar's my littermate." Snowbird is speaking by the way. I wasn't sure if they did, so what do you guys think? 23:10 Sun Jul 15

That sounds to me like implying that they were once kits. I don't see why not. Breeze whisker  23:52, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yep! Nice find! 01:56, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! 02:10 Mon Jul 16

I'm sorry but just saying characters are littermates isn't them mentioning when they were kits. It's talking about relation to them. It means nothing really. I honestly don't think characters should get kit images for being mentioned as littermates. I think we're simply taking this too far. 06:04, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

It's like saying any cat who's mother calls them their son or daughter should get a kit image. It's just silly, and in my opinion, very uneeded. 06:06, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. "Littermate" just means they were siblings. In past situations, if cats had remembered being in the nursery, then they'd get a kit charart. Adult cats call others littermates all the time. 16:01, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Loonie and Paleh on this one. I don't think it quite counts...there wasn't anything implying they were kits in that statement, imho.

I have to agree with Paleh and Loonie and Skye as well. The statement never mentioned them as kits. 16:58, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm... I think it can go either way with this one. I mean, Snowbird is kind of saying that they were kits together. But then again, I have to agree with Loonie and Paleh... But in my opinion, I believe they should get one. 20:09, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so I found some examples of "littermate = siblings". This is just from Sign of the Moon.

"My mother was your littermate." (Stoneteller and Bird's mother)

Foxleap dashed up to the edge of the hole, leaning over to see his littermate. (Icecloud)

There was comfort for both of them in the touch of a littermate's pelt. (Jayfeather and Lionblaze)

Worry for her littermate pricked through Dovewing's pelt. (Ivypool)

"She's lucky to have such a great littermate." (Bumblestripe and Briarlight)

Jayfeather didn't want to travel with the cat who had lied to him and his littermates. (Hollyleaf and Lionblaze)

"Well, mind you stay clear of that farm where your littermates an' that nuisancy WindClan apprentice met the dogs." (Jayfeather, Hollyleaf, and Lionblaze)

Bumblestripe protested, drawing his tail down his littermate's flank. (Briarlight)

"No good cat would be jealous of an injured littermate." (Blossomfall and Briarlight)

He flung himself at his littermate. (Strong Pounce and Lapping Wave)

I think this is enough examples to determine that littermate = sibling, not kit. Ratscar and Snowbird should not get them. 20:29, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. None of those examples said that they were kits. They should not get chararts. 22:34, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Agreeing. It doesn't mention that they were shown or mentioned to be as a kit, just as siblings, so I say no charart. 05:43, 17, 07, 2012

If it doesn't mention that they are in the nursery/ mentioned int eh kit rank, I don't think they should get one. 02:39, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Does the majority agree that they do not get the chararts? 03:31, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going with no, as littermate is basically another way of saying siblings or whatnot. Skt Omnia vincit amor  13:41, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with you guys,but (again) I'm outnumbered. Whatever, decline those images already up. 15:15, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ivy, if you had some good points to support your argument, then we could continue the discussion. But plenty of us have made points as to why they shouldn't get one (I've provided evidence from the books) and all you've said is that you disagree. So don't get defensive about an argument you haven't supported. 16:20, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

A little late coming in, but if these don't get a charart for basically being to vague, then Ivytail shouldn't get one either. Since, for instance, she could have been a rogue, kittypet, or loner and gone directly into being an apprentice. That's just as vague as "littermate." Also, littermate could mean both sibling and being in the nursery together, since it implies they were born at the same time. This language is tends to have the same word meaning different things, after all. It is entirely possible. So this really could go either way. Breeze whisker  17:47, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

I really don't think that's the same thing, Breeze. Ivytail got one for being mentioned as a new apprentice at a Gathering; which has nothing to do with this discussion. It's the same basic concept that allowed Mistystar to gain an apprentice image, as well as Toadstep and Rosepetal (not because we knew their mentors), expect instead of being mentioned as new warriors, they were mentioned as new apprentices. Ivytail has nothing to do with this discussion, and the kit image is warranted.

Ok fine. The word in itself refers to the time that the cats were beside their mother's belly as a litter. They've also used the words "brother and sister", and if it only meant "brother or sister", wouldn't they have no need of the other words? I just feel calling them your littermate has a very deep connotation to the time where they were innocent and defenseless (kits) and that is why I feel they qualify for kit chararts. I'm sorry, I haven't been thinking clearly lately, but there's your explanation  15:51, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

She does have to do with this discussion since she is also getting a kit charart for something just as vague as "littermate." Like I said, she could have have been something other than a kit before being an apprentice. It's not like that's never happened before. Let's think of who's story the entire first arc was about. Also, Mistystar, Toadstep, and Rosepetal were seen as kits before so it is slightly different. Since there has never been a kit in the series that has gone directly to being a warrior, it would be assumed that they had been apprentices in the gap of the books, since it is also assumed that they were in the Clan the whole time training to become a warrior. Ivytail could have come from outside the Clan. We've never seen her as a kit either, and she's never been mentioned as being in the nursery. This is the same argument that appears to be being used against Snowbird and Ratscar getting chararts. If Ivytail gets one, then these should also. They aren't any more vague than hers, and if anything, less so since littermate still implies that they were kits together, even if it also means siblings. Breeze whisker  05:19, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

Ivy: But it's never been used that way. It's always been used in a way that it can be interchanged with "sibling", and the meaning would stay the same.

As for Ivytail, that's actually a completely different matter. But even if she had been a loner or whatever before joining the Clans, she'd still be less than six months old, and thus, a kit. 15:59, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

"Littermate: One member of a pair or group of animals born in the same litter." Official definition of a littermate. Like I said, the word in itself is referring to the litter that their mother had. Referring that they were once kits. And no, from what I've seen they only say littermate in a strong connotation, it really does mean something for them to mention that they were once vulnerable kits together. I really think if cats get chararts for just having their mentor named and cats getting queen pixils for being a cat's mother, I don't see why the useage of littermate wouldn't warrant an image. They are all similar situations and are all just about as vague since they were never seen. 16:42, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

Ohlook I'm back They still shouldn't get kit images for that. Littermate does mean sibling, however you put it, and that's something that they always are. They don't stop being littermates once they're adults, and therefore that has no mentioning of kit behind it. For the other images that have been made, such as Ivytail, the characters have just gone from one rank to another. Meaning they were just in that rank and should get an image for it. If we make images for littermates, we also have to make them for normal mentions of being siblings, and mentions of parent/child relationship mentions. No. I don't agree. They shouldn't get images. So that's my opinion. 17:19, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well then I don't agree with any cat getting an image for a rank they weren't seen as. 18:18, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

Ivy, we agreed on those a long time ago. If you didn't want them, you should've said something then, because now there's a lot of them.

Also, official definition of twin: "One of two children or animals born at the same birth." Sound the same as littermate? Because that's what littermate means: twin. 18:36, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Breeze here. Ivytail, what if she wasn't six moons or under old before she "joined" the Clans. She could still be a new apprentice without being six moons old - younger, or even older (Like Crookedstar). Or maybe she was around Millie's age - but became an apprentice because she was untrained. It's assuming that she would get a kit image.

And honestly, I don't agree with these characters getting images: Mistystar getting an apprentice image, Ivytail, ect. You guys have no proof that they were these ranks. No actual proof. Because, who knows! Anything can happen! Mistystar might have not been an apprentice at all; she might've skipped being a apprentice. Sounds ridiculous, but you have no proof that this is false; nor true. Rosepetal and Toadstep are, however, a different case. Their mentors were specified; they must have been apprentices, right? Actually no, that might not even be true either. I'm not 100% sure about them getting images, and saying that they would without being sure, would be an assumption. 15:44, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

Just figured I'd mention this, Toadstep and Rosepetal do get images, no matter what the outcome of this discussion about the other characters is. I just checked TFA to check what it said there and it says specifically "two of our apprentices have been made warriors". So yeah, they get them. 23:28, July 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright. I guess they get images then. 07:03, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

But what about the others? 14:55, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

Toadstep and Rosepetal should definatly get the chararts, but we are just assuming the ranks held for Ivytail etc. There are many possiblities of combinations of rank that could've been held during the time between birth and becoming a warrior. It may sound crazy to go straight from being a kit to a warrior, but we already know that the Erin's don't pay attention to whats realistic, so anything's possible. 08:50, 01, 08, 2012

Though I hate to see one of my own images go, you guys are right about us assuming. I mean, we don't make images for all young warriors, nor do we make images for all apprentices, despite us knowing they had to have been kits sometime, and most likely apprentices. It really is an assumption, and since they're not actually seen as that rank, they shouldn't get any image in the first place. 11:49, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Slant
Do not tell me to take this to PC, because it's not a description issue. It's solely to do with the images. Not the rank. Not the description.

Okay, guys. As I was working on Slant's article for PC... I realized something. Actually, Loonie pointed this out to me as well, and I kinda agree. Brightspirit has an image for her article, despite us not knowing her actual rank (no, I'm not getting into another debate about that, just using it as an example), so wouldn't Slant be the same thing? We have a description, and a very neat one at that. We also know that he's in the Tribe of Endless Hunting.... Wouldn't that qualify him for at least some sort of image? Brightspirit has one, as does Braveheart and Shiningheart (actually, she has two because of the queen image rule, but that's justified). I'm not entirely sure.... Don't shoot me, as I'm just asking. 8D

Actually, I don't see why not. We could probably give him a Prey-hunter or Cave-guard rank. I agree 100% that he should get an image. We have a perfectly good description, lets not waste it. 00:48, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why not, considering that Brightspirit has one. But are we just going to give him the warrior one? Deciding which rank would be an issue... 00:51, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

It can't be a warrior name, as that's a Clan-only rank. Paleh brought up a good point on Skype... We really can't, since we don't know if he was a cave guard or a prey hunter. He's not an Ancient cat, as they use two names instead of one name.

What about Rock though? Wasn't he with the Ancients and only has one name? (idk, dont kill me) 00:54, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Rock was before the Ancients, I do believe. However, you're right, to an extent. I asked Kate on her fb page to see if we can possibly get an answer. Rowan's right; we have a description, and with one like his, it really shouldn't go to waste. =3

I don't agree with making this image. Though we know a description and we know that he's apart of the Tribe of Rushing Water, we don't know whether he's a to-be, prey-hunter, or cave-guard and neither can we assume that. We don't assume. Period. And this sounds like we're about to assume a rank for Slant despite not knowing. 03:14, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

We assumed with Brightspirit, Braveheart, and Shiningheart, and //that's// why I asked. I'm not in favor, nor against it. I'm just asking. Simple as that.

We shouldn't assume the rank of any cat. So it should be obvious where my stance is. 03:23, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, I'm half and half on this. Actually, we don't even know how old Brightspirit was when she died. For all we know, she couldv'e been a kit that died on the SkyClan's journey. She couldv'e been an apprentice who died in a fight. She couldv'e been an elder, for all we know. We're making a pretty wild assumption with Brightspirit, and we'd be doing the same if we made an image for Slant. So unless we can get a proper cite for his rank, Slant shouldn't get an image, imho. 03:28, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

I believe that Cloudy asked this before we realized that, being in the Tribe, Slant could have more than one rank. So I think this discussion is closed until Kate answers (if she ever does). 03:46, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I thought he was an Ancient cat, not part of the Tribe. I asked this before Loonie and the others pointed out the name. xD So yeah, this is pretty much decided unless Kate answers my question.

Apparently, some people disagree with this or are neutral on this idea. So...Maybe we could have a blank for characters with great descriptions, but have an unknown rank. Like Slant. And Brightspirit...? Camrynn 14:25, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe there is a need for a blank that doesn't have any relevance to the Warriors series. We have blanks for ranks (or something like loner, ect.). I think that if a character doesn't have a rank, that doesn't mean we should make blank just so a charart can be made for it. Plus, making another blank for this reason would do much work, only to be made for two characters or so. 14:38, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I've suggested this before. The no-rank blank? Would be pretty simple, and there are enough cats in the category to warrant it. More cats than we have Stonetellers, I'm sure. Slant, Brightspirit, Shiningheart, and Braveheart. That's four cats, which is just as many Healers as we've had. So the number of cats with descriptions and no rank is no reason not to go with a no-rank blank.

I'm not saying it's necisarry or that it wouldn't be superfluous, but when has that ever stopped this project? Technically, everything done here is entirely superfluous to the purpose of the encyclopedia, but it's still a point of pride for the wiki because it brings a layer of detail other book-related wikis often can't have.

So do it or don't, that's my two cents on the no-rank blank. It wouldn't be a waste of time to do it. It'd allow you guys to make chararts for characters that have descriptions but no mentioned ranks. But it's up to you guys. 15:16, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

I'm just gonna say that I disagree with Slank having a rank. He is only said to be in the Tribe of Rushing Water - heck, knowing this is fantasy, he could've never had a rank. So, yeah, I disagree with him having a charart because his rank is never mentioned, and Kate herself doesn't even know what rank he is. 15:21, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with Slant getting an image unless further information is given, otherwise we would just be making assumptions, which we don't do on the wiki. I disagree with the no-rank blank because the no-image works perfectly fine and I don't believe it's necessary to make a blank like that. 04:36, 11, 08, 2012

We would still use the no-image blank for cats with no description, or very little description given at all. I don't think giving Slant a "no rank"// or "unknown rank" blank would be assuming at all. We don't know his rank. But it wouldn't be assuming to give him an "unknown rank" blank. It probably is assuming to give him the no-image, because he has a description, and we know he was a Tribe Cat. (don't ask, I have strange logic) And Brightspirit? No, we don't know her rank, but yes, she has a description. We know what Clan she's in. And she has a warrior// or deputy name? Shiningheart, we know she was a queen, at least. Braveheart, too has a description, and a warrior, possibly deputy name? '''These cats have warrior images. That is assuming. An UNKNOWN rank blank would not be an assumption.''' We have at least a few cats with perfectly good descriptions, why shouldn't we put that to use? I agree with Shelly. Camrynn 15:50, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

I still disagree. He has no rank. He has no further information about his rank, and giving him a charart with a rank is still assuming. Yes, we are assuming for Brightspirit and her parent's ranks, which is why I think they should be deleted, but I still disagree with having a blank for Slant. 16:06, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

We aren't suggesting we assume anything. We're suggesting we make a blank for cats with no rank. 16:09, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

I somehow don't see the point of a no-rank blank. If a character has no rank, then we leave it as a no-image (that should be the same with Braveheart, Brightspirit, ect.), imo. Do we need a no-rank blank just so a few characters get images? I can't really explain, but don't we need blanks for cats with ranks (or loner, ect.)? I'm kinda confused here, so can one explain how having a no-rank blank would benefit? And how is the no image image assuming? It just says "no image", nothing like "no description". 16:27, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if we wanted to we could also make this no-rank blank for the cats in the Dark Forest as well, since that's where it came up originally. I think it's a good idea. I mean, if we have descriptions we might as well make images for them. If we just have long haired and short haired ones, we could even make it an unknown gender blank while we're at it. There's a lot of cats that could use this blank. Breeze whisker  16:45, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

^^. Guys... the point of the project is to supply art for the pages that need it. So honestly, I do think we should make an effort to create valid art for the cats with descriptions, but no given rank. I disagree with the unknown gender blank, but the unknown rank blanks could probably have some DF cats with no confirmed rank. So I agree with the above. Camrynn 17:05, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the no-rank blank would be a good idea for the Dark Forest cats as well, since we're technically assuming they're rogues based on a quote from Spottedleaf (at least, I think it's her). I think the no-rank blank would be extremely useful. It really would cut down on some of the edit warring with the anons who claim a cat's not a certain rank or something, and try and delete the image. It would also allow extremely special cats, like Brightspirit and her family, to have images, without a debate on what their ranking is.

I know what the point of the project is. I was just stating my opinion. The thing is, if we have a no rank blank, then we can make a no gender rank, a no pelt color rank, and so on. ...And that would be too much, in my opinion. But simply having the no rank blank means that we might as well have tons of other blanks like that (it would be logical, in my opinion). 17:40, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well, we don't have to make a no-pelt color or gender blanks because those go against the cat's description, because the pelt color is unknown or the cat is without a confirmed gender. But for a unknown rank blank, we'll have known the description. We'll have known the gender, all we're missing is the rank. Imho, we can't make no=pelt color or no-gender blanks. Camrynn 18:07, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

I think the no rank blank is a good idea. But we don't need to get too picky with making a no gender rank or anything (Like Sandypaw). 18:24, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. Sandypaw wouldn't get an image. There's no gender. This is for cats whose gender and description are known, but a definite rank isn't given. Slant, Brightspirit, Braveheart, Shiningheart, the Dark Forest cats, ect.

I didn't mean that we needed a blank just for an unknown gender, I meant that we could use this blank for unknown genders also. It would make it a bit more worthwhile than just for unknown ranks. There are plenty of cats that have awesome descriptions but no gender. Basically, just make a blank that covers anything unknown and preventing a character from getting an image (except no description at all - there's no point in that). Breeze whisker  20:06, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Huh, now that you explained it a little better, actually, that I can agree with. So, basically, "if it doesn't fit into any of the other categories", it gets one of these blanks? And we all know there's bound to be some where it would come in handy to have a blank like this, say for Dawn of the Clans, Yellowfang's Secret, ect.

I'm just curious as to how a genderless blank would work. Would you guys just go with no eyelashes? Because that would make people assume it's a guy based on the rest of the blanks on the wiki. I wanted to propose genderless blanks before, but I could honestly not think of a way to portray them since the only differences in our blanks currently are eyelashes. Unless you guys want to go the whole nine-yards and give the guys... (ahem) the anatomical bits that indicate that they're guys, and then just leave off both said anatomical bits and the eyelashes on the androgynous blanks... well, what I'm saying is, with the current gender-differences on the blanks as they are, it'd be hard to make one that's androgynous, since it'd likely just look like the male blanks. 04:44, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I am not drawing nuts on Firestar's chararts. I'm just not. You guys have fun doing that, but I'll have no part of it. 04:48, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Stony here. I don't know if something just isn't clicking inside my brain or whatever, but I see no reason to make this blank. Yes, we don't know what rank they are, but to me, it's like assuming that they're nothing that we have blanks for (yes, there could be other bands of cats that call themselves something by different names). Poses should only be given for ranks and statuses (such as kit, kittypet, and queen or whatever). If we don't give cats images based on knowing everything but the gender, it hardly seems fair to give no-rank cats an image too. I don't know, I'm not sure how to explain it exactly, but it makes sense in my head why they don't deserve a blank of their own. I'm sorry, but cats like Brightspirit shouldn't have an image because right now, we're just assuming. -- 05:20, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I do think we should take off Brightspirit's, Braveheart's and Shiningheart's chararts, because we are just assuming things there. Back onto this no-rank topic, if we don't give cats chararts for not knowing their gender but knowing the other informtation, it makes sense to me that we do the same in this case; not knowing their rank but knowing the rest of the information. It requires a certain ammount of information for a cat to qualify for a charart, and if we don't have that information it gets no image. And we create blanks off ranks, not unknown descriptions. Meh, it just doesn't seem necessary, and the no-image works fine. 06:52, 12, 08, 2012

Haha Nobody needs to give the male cats balls. I would think that they would just look like male chararts since how many cats do you see with big eyelashes? Honestly, I didn't even realize there even were different gender blanks until I joined the project, so if they artist can draw the head in such a way that, even if there were eyelashes, they wouldn't really be very visible (like from slightly behind) I doubt any anons or that would notice. Even then, it's just an idea. There are plenty of cats, if the Dark Forest ones are included, that would get an unknown blank if we were to make them, so there's still enough to warrant one, I believe. Breeze whisker  00:50, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

I don't, and never will support a no rank blank. If a cat has no rank, they get no image. That's just how it is. I don't think we should have to make a new blank just cause some people want to make a few images. They'd be used for very few cats. It wouldn't be used on the DF cats, we have a cite for them being both warriors and rogues. We don't need to have an unknown rank for them. And cats like Shiningheart and Braveheart, we know they're clan cats, we know they have warrior names. They've been warriors before. That much you can prove just because of the name. Whether they were different ranks, such as queen or deputy at the time, that's another story. But simply their name is proof they were warriors, therefore it's no assumption. It'd be an assumption to say Braveheart was deputy or something. So I really don't support a no-rank blank, I simply think people are getting bored with the lack of images, and I will never support a blank just to deal with bored members. 21:15, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

If we're assuming with Shiningheart and Braveheart, we're assuming with every Namekit and Namepaw that they're a kit or apprentice. And that's not true. In the way the warriors world works, their name should be proof enough. 21:19, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Well, excuse me. I found that comment pretty dang offensive. I think we need a no-rank blank because the point of this project is to "produce art for each character's page as there is not official artwork for all cats." We should be trying to give as many cats as we possible can an image. That's the reason why we're arguing for one. If you disagree with a no-rank blank being part of that, then just say so.. There's no reason to accuse us that we're doing this because we're "bored." If I was bored I wouldn't even be here. I have plenty of other things I could be doing. 21:54, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

But if we don't have the necessary information to make a charart, then they get no image. The requirents for a charart state that they must have a rank. It doesn't make sense to me that we need a no-rank image. About Shiningheart etc, that's a different story, but I still agree with their images being taken down. It's really hard to explain what's going on in my head here, but I just don't think it's necessary. 02:32, 19, 08, 2012

If you find me disagreeing with you offensive, I'm sorry but you're gonna have to deal with it. Not everyone's opinion is going to match your own. I did say I disagree. And I'm not saying everyone does it out of boredom, but I know a lot do. And it bugs me. Things like this are never suggested when there's a new book out or something. And as I said, what's the point of it? For two cats? Really? And you're pointing out that we're supposed to make images for each characters page, so should we start making white shaded cats for characters with no description then? It's silly. We don't have all the information required for them, and rank is included in that. It's no less important than description, and I personally strongly disagree with making a blank for cats with no confirmed ranks.

Look I don't want to start drama, can we just disagree and leave it at that please? The last thing we need in the project right now i drama. >.> 04:47, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Can't we agree to disagree? I think we should not have "no rank blanks." If a cat fits the description to have a no-rank blank, then they're not ranked. It's in the name. And if they're not ranked, they don't get a charart. We have enough blanks for all the ranks included in the series for cats that have ranks. Just adding a blank for a cat with no rank would defeat the purpose of having different blanks. Why not have the same blank for each cat then so every article gets an image? We've worked by this for however long this project has been around, and I think we can withstand longer.

I'm not shooting down anyone's ideas here. I think it was a great idea. I just don't think it'd work out for only doing a select amount of cats with no rank. I'm not trying to sound harsh or anything, okay? This is my sole opinion, and I'm sticking to it. 19:04, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Warriors + Tweak Nominations
As I was talking with Stoner in the chat, she brought up a good point that I think might be of some use to the project and it's dwindling lead activity, especially on the tweak nominations page. I think we should allow the warriors of the project to vote as well. Warriors and leads are allowed to tweak images, so why can't the warriors also have their own say in what's tweaked/redone/ect. I've seen multiple warriors post their opinions on the tweak page, but often enough, it goes on deaf ears because they are not project leads. So, I think we should allow warriors that have been one for at least a month to vote. Comments?

I like it 8D It makes sense, since I've seen plenty of warriors post a comment on a nomination but since they can't actually votenay, they can't do much about it. 19:18, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. Warriors are also members of the project, and they should have a say in what gets tweaked or not. -doesn't have much to say- 19:20, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yep, and I know that this was brought up before, and many voted against, including me. After re-thinking, people should be allowed to vote in a project, and honestly, I think that maybe even apprentices could vote...But I dunno. And it's good to hear opinions! 19:22, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Even though I'm not a lead I think it would be a good idea because you'll have more opinions. 19:36, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agre one hundred percent with this. It will allow more opinions, so we can hear what others want to say. =3 19:37, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'm all for this, although if we let apprentices vote, it should be increased to 4 or 5 yays or nays. :3 Breeze  whisker  20:28, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree as well. I told Roo to go vote on my image once, forgetting that only leads can vote on tweak images. I don't think it's fair that they can't vote on what needs to be done, if they can do what needs to be done in the first place. 23:54, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, too. I guess apprentices could vote...but I dunno. They can't tweak or redo, however, they're still part of the project...I dunno. :P 00:14, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I remember a long, long time ago, when I was a apprentice/warrior *legasp*, when Tweak Week came along, Warriors were allowed to put up images they believe needed tweaked. I think apprentices could too but I don't remember, all I know is I wasn't a SW at the time and I suggested stuff to be tweaked. Why should now be any different? 00:38, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, Ivy. I myself nominated images, and I know back then, I was still a new warrior. That seems like so long ago. o.o Anyways, I'm not really sure about the apprentices... but as Leggy said, they are part of the project.

I don't know why we don't let apprentices tweak images anyway. It's not like we have mountains of new chararts needing done, and there's always chararts needing tweaked. .-. Most tweaks aren't difficult. Breeze whisker  01:20, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

I'm fully agreeing with the warriors voting on tweak nominations, but as Breezy said I think the ammount of votes could be increased. As for the apprentices, for them to vote they should have experience with tweaking, but they could always comment their opinion or point. 06:36, 06, 08, 2012

I am also agreeing with warriors being able to vote, for it gives them some experience before if they become a SW. But since we would have more people being able to vote, then yes, we should increase the amount of votes needed. Maybe for the apprentices they should only be able to tweak certain images? Like they would be able to do shading tweaks, but not editing lineart tweaks or something. Just throwing some ideas out there. >.<  21:16, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

I like that idea, Misty. I remember, way back during once upon a time when I was an apprentice and TW rolled around, I didn't really understand why apprentices couldn't help with TW. So, if we were to let apprentices help with tweaking then I think they could certainly do redos, shading tweaks, adding/subtracting white paws/bellies/etc., and maybe adding/subtracting stripes from an image. idk. Maybe a tweak nomination would look something like this:

'''Lapwing - Tweak Nomination  - Shading needs to be redone and white paws need to be added. This is an apprentice tweak.'''

Then, while the image(s) are being voted on, it could also be debated whether apprentices could/couldn't take it as a tweak. Also, I think it's be easier to say that "this image is apprentice eligible" rather than not, because I think there'll be more tweaks that can't be done by apprentices then can be. As for keep charart count for apprentices, let's say two tweaks equals one original image/a redo. Thoughts? 22:04, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

That sounds good Scarlet. Apprentices could only do certain tweaks, and the image count of two tweaks being one original image sounds good. I suppose it could be up to the voters to decide if it's apprentice eligible or not. I'd also suggest that in the "Approved Tweaks" section we can add next to the reason for tweak/redo if the image is apprentice eligible. x3 04:17, 16, 08, 2012

Maybe instead of a new section, we just put an astric (whatever this thing: * is) next to apprentice approved tweaks? Saves time. As for the votes, I think we should stay content with three votes equals tweak/redo. 04:21, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if we're allowing the warriors/apprentices to vote and all, I don't think it should be three votes. That needs to be raised, regardless. Otherwise, someone could just get three of their closest friends to vote yay to redo an image that might not need it otherwise, and things like that.

Good point. Would 6 be a good number? 17:29, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

5-6 votes sounds plenty enough to me. 02:15, 19, 08, 2012

I don't agree that apprentices should be able to tweak anything. Honestly, 3 images isn't that much to do before being able to tweak. Members need to learn how to do proper art before trying to tweak someone else's. It's better to have more tweaks sitting there, than tweaks constantly getting declined because an apprentice hasn't learned enough about chararts yet. I feel it's best left to warriors and up. We're not asking that much of the apprentices in becoming warriors. 3 decent images. Just 3. I feel they can wait that long. It's not like we have a huge list of blindingly bad chararts that need to be tweaked or redone right away. Most are just minor tweaks that aren't urgent, we don't really need more users to be able to do them.

As for the voting, I support warriors voting, but with apprentices, I feel like the user should have experience actually tweaking things before being able to vote, and that's something apprentices don't have. Warriors do though, so I fully support them being able to vote. Apprentices simply don't have the experience to know what should and shouldn't be tweaked/redone. And yes, 6 would be a good number. Honestly we should have had more to start with, since what cloudy said about you being able to round up 3 close friends actually does happen quite frequently. 11:44, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Kestrelflight
'Kay,this was brought up. This is whether Kestrelflight needs those mottled grey alts. The fact is he /is/ mottled grey, and it seems like a partial description, as he is brown-grey, and mottled, but the thing is, they don't always have to bring up the white splotches. Whatcha think? 07:45, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

It seems like a partial description to me. Yeah, they're wonderful images, but are they needed? I'm not entirely sure.

Ok, I might sound a little biased here, but partial descriptions are for cats like Hazeltail, being called gray when she is gray and white or a brown tabby being called brown. Gray-brown is a very destinct color, and to me, looks a lot different than gray or brown. Brook has had a gray-brown alt for who knows how long? And look at how different that color is from her pelt. Same with Kestrelflight. Those two images are very different in color. Now with the case of Bluestar and her offspring: blue-gray and gray are not very different. Blue-gray just has a slight blue tinge to it. Disagree if you will but I'm sticking by my original reasoning of providing that alternate image for him. 18:11, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

Ack forgot to mention something. He hasn't been called gray-brown at all in the Omen of the Stars arc, whereas he was in the Power of Three arc. It sounds like a mistake to me. 18:19, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

I've gotta agree with Ivy on this one. Gray-brown is a completely different color from gray and brown. And those images look a lot different. 07:22, 10, 08, 2012

Yep, agreeing with Ivy and DJ. I believe that the images should stay, they do look a lot different from his main ones. 21:21, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Gray-brown and gray aren't any different from blue-gray and gray though. The only thing that really puts it in question is the fact it also left out the white splotches.... But it seems like a partial to me. The images look different cause they're totally different styles, not cause they're extremely different descriptions. You should be looking at the difference between the descriptions, not the images. 06:49, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Paleh, my own cat, Hickory, has a gray-brown undercoat. That color alone looks so much different than any gray cat I've seen. 15:26, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

Oooh, now that you mention Hickory, yeah.....they are kinda different... (I've seen that ball of fluff before x3)

Yeah and this looks quite different from this. You're missing the point, it's still not two shades. And again, this is still a partial. 00:28, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not seeing your point here. Bluestar was not given a blue alt, one for it not being far enough from gray (I'm still under the assumption that she is blue-gray in her official art) and that a cat simply cannot be pure blue. Hazeltail got her gray alt removed because she specifically has gray on her. The color on my cat, which I know to be brown-gray, looks totally different than any gray cat I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe Kestrelflight and Bird need to be darker? (the only brown-gray I've seen on cats is actually dark and I'm sticking by this unless you show me a picture of another brown-gray cat that is not dark.) I'm sorry if I'm being difficult and/or stubborn about this, but nothing has been presented to change my mindset. My apologies. 00:43, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're seeing my point here, but whatever. Anything I say will just be a repeat of what I've already said. And since neither of our opinions seem to be changing, how bout we just leave it at that and let the others put in their opinions? 00:59, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I always thought grey-brown was something like this? http://www.iaza.com/work/120817C/iaza15955255639200.png Cause if it is, it doesn't seem like much of a difference. 07:09, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Mentor Program
Hey guys! So as heads of the mentor program, me and Cloudy were discussing, and we've decided that the mentor program is long overdue for a revamp. It's quite disorganized and lot of things could work better. So I thought I'd post this here, get your guys' thoughts on it, and maybe get some input on others things that could be fixed up. So tell me your thoughts. :) Here are the things we're planning to work on;
 * Overall just a layout rework to make it more welcoming. I'll play around with different layouts, but right now it just kind of looks messy and unwelcoming.
 * Getting more on top of assigning mentors to the apprentice that nobody volunteers for. Perhaps we could allow all SWs to do that so the job doesn't have to be put on only 2 or 3 people's shoulders?
 * Requiring that when a mentor volunteers to take on an apprentice, that apprentice has to respond on the request within a certain time period (I was thinking maybe a week) to confirm that it's fine before the request is archived. If the apprentice fails to respond, then the request will be declined and the mentor will still have an open spot. I've seen multiple people take on an apprentice, only to not get an answer from them whenever they try and talk to them.
 * This is a big one that we need to really work on: Maybe it very clear that the mentoring program isn't there so you can make good personal images. It's there for people interested in PCA only. I've seen users get mentors just to do personal image requests and such and never do anything in PCA. Perhaps a notification at the top of the page, and some text linking to the apprentice tutorials, for those who aren't interested in PCA, right below the apprentice request heading would help.
 * Furthermore with that, if a user applies and gets a mentor, and later reveals they have no interest in PCA, I believe the mentor should have right to decline teaching them further, and simply link them to the apprentice tutorials for anymore help. This program really isn't here to teach people chararts for fun, and it simply takes up mentor's time if that's all the users use it for.
 * I'd like to encourage mentors to have set assessments worked out for their apprentices, so they can track their progress, and clearly state what's been done when the graduate. Hopefully this will prevent people from posting graduation request simply because they're either bored of teaching their apprentice, or their apprentice is bored of learning.
 * The table that's on the front page, listing the mentors and apprentices, would be good to put on the actual page for the mentor program. It'd make it easier for users who wish to request mentors to see who's available.
 * A discussion section on that page, perhaps right below the graduation requests, would be very helpful. It would allow for mentors to ask for help easily, or provide a place for apprentice to ask questions.
 * A discussion section would also allow for activity reports, so that if a mentor or apprentice goes inactive, it can be reported and either that apprentice can be assigned a new mentor, or the mentor will be released to take a more active apprentice.
 * Also related to activity, I'd like to suggest that if an apprentice goes inactive from PCA (even if they're still active with their mentor), then their mentor should be allowed to decline them further teaching till they're active again. As I've said before, this program is for PCA alone, and if a user's not active in PCA, what's the point?

Now I think that was all I planned to bring up..... I'll post later if I forgot anything. XD So what do you guys think? Thoughts? Ideas? Our ears are open for anything that'd make the mentor program better. 04:01, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

This page does need a huge revamp. I honestly don't have much ideas on how this would work, but I'll try. I agree on allowing all SW's to assign apprentices to mentors, as we can get things done more quickly. I discussion section would be very helpful, allowing apprentices and mentors to ask for help and clear confusion. I think there should also be some sort of requirements for graduating so mentors don't do it just because they can't be bothered teaching them anymore. And yes, we somehow need to get the point across that the mentor program is a PCA-purpose only. All those ideas are great Paleh, I agree. <span style="">10:12, 18, 08, 2012

Actually with my apprentices, I have this grading chart that allows them to grade themselves, and then I grade them. <font color="#EF4035">Rain <font color="#FFF797">bow   <font color="#007FB2">Fli  <font color="#6D1F7E">ght  14:17, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Great ideas, Paleh. I also agree with allowing SW's to assign apprentices to mentors, for sometimes I see those still waiting for a replies, so it would make it more efficient and it would get done faster. I also agree with DJ's idea, I think doing that would make the program even better. 17:02, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I think this is an excellent idea and it could really have a good effect on the mentor program. I agree with all these ideas, and I also love the idea of having set requirements in order for a user to graduate. 17:06, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Fantastic ideas. I would like for the mentor program to be a working business again, like it was when it first started. Now we have users who requested mentors in June. We can't give them mentors anymore because none of them have edited since.. so.. Would we just get rid of their applications? 17:26, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I like these ideas too. It'll make sure the Mentor Program is getting what it's worth. It'll be much more beneficial to PCA. A lot of the users applying for mentor's leave a request and than don't edit at all, this will clean it up probably. 17:51, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Oh another thing that I forgot to add, I think we should make it a rule that apprentice applications have to be filed correctly, otherwise they're automatically declined. Most people who've ever taken care of that page know what a pain it is when apprentices don't file their request properly, and you have to clean up after them. If they can't be bothered to read directly above for how they should do it, I think we should have full right to decline their request till they do.

And splook, yeah, for any inactive users, their requests will be declined. For those who are active on the wiki but no PCA, perhaps we could ask if they still want a mentor, and if they don't respond within a week, decline it. 21:07, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that if they don't fill out their application properly, we should decline it. It is annoying when so many users don't read the instrutions, so I agree on that. <span style="">02:09, 19, 08, 2012

I agree. Their application should be declined if they do not take the time to follow the instructions. <font color="#EF4035">Rain <font color="#FFF797">bow   <font color="#007FB2">Fli  <font color="#6D1F7E">ght  17:54, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Everything's been said. I agree 100% with this. 06:37, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, so how do you guys think the assessments should work? Should we have a set of them that all users have to pass, or have set ones depending on what the apprentice requested to learn, or just let the mentor figure them out specifically for their apprentice, then post what they were at graduation? 11:01, August 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I was thinking that we could have some sort of a more organized system of graduating and assessing combined. Maybe there could be some kind of approval process for final assessments so that apprentices could graduate. Should a mentor feel that the apprentice is ready for their final assessment, then the apprentice will make what art pieces are needed, and have those chararts go to some sort of approval process. If s/he passes, then they are ready for graduation. Dunno, but it's just an idea. 05:27, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the assessments could have set standards. Like, in order to graduate, a user must make a solid cat with up to three comments on it. Dunno, that's a raw idea. 05:15, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

^^ Me likey xD Maybe, the mentor could get a task from another warrior/mentor for their apprentice to perform, and then judge it (like if Lapwing were an apprentice with a mentor. Her graduation assignment, given by Cloudy, was to make a tortie and white queen, and then it'd have to pass Cloudy's assessment, like be deemed at least 90% done or something. idk). 03:28, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm well problem with that is it'll only show whether or not the learned just one thing. Being able to do one thing doesn't necessarily mean they're ready to graduate. I kind of like the idea of having a set list of things the apprentice needs to accomplish and show their mentor to show they're ready to graduate. But that's just me. *shrugs* 17:17, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe instead of having a "final assement" as such (well, it still would be a final assement), the mentor could just ask the apprentice to make a set of different types of cats once they think that they're ready. The mentor could discuss with another mentor the improvements to be made and the percentage of completion. If they believe they are good enough images and if the apprentice has learned a lot since starting apprenticeship, they could gratuate. They'd have to fit into the requirements to graduate of course. Idk, just my thoughts. o-o <span style="">02:52, 08, 09, 2012

Hmm that may work, though I was thinking something a bit different. It's really up to you guys.

What I was more thinking, is having a list of things the apprentice has to learn/prove they can do throughout their training. Not just one thing at the end of their training. More like a list including patterns such as solid, tabby (may include tabby types if the mentor wishes), tortie, dappled/mottled, and so on. And also have them show that they can use the four main blanks well; Warrior, Apprentice, Kit, and Leader. So it could just be stuff they work on through their training and once they've completed the list and both mentor and apprentice are satisfied, the apprentice could graduate. I think we could trust the mentors to know well enough what's good enough quality to pass assessments without forcing them to check with another mentor. That could of course be allowed for those that are unsure, but I don't really think we need to make it something that's required.

So yeah, that's more how I was thinking it could go, but there's a lot of ways we could do it, and it's up to you guys. Maybe we could even put up a vote with the different systems for it if it gets down to it. *shrugs* 21:02, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Oh and another idea for the whole program in general, maybe, if the Join.Me thing gets more active, we could have mentors assign some sessions for the apprentices to go to if they need help in that area, as learning from a couple people, and a couple different techniques for it could be better than just learning from your mentor, who may not specialize in it or anything. The mentor and apprentice could just work out between the two of them which sessions would be good for the apprentice, and which they would be able to attend.

I don't know, just a thought. 21:06, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I rather like the idea of having assignments for apprentices to work on, even if the assignment isn't what the apprentice originally requested to learn- they need to know how to work with most pelt types and the four main blanks. There's no getting around it, really.

I also agree that mentors don't have to check with other mentors to see if an image is good enough quality. If you approve the application, then the leads of the mentor program are proving that they trust in the mentor's abilities to teach, as well as their judgement when it comes to images. Of course, the option's always okay; if the mentor wishes for a second opinion, they should be granted one. But, if they don't want one, they shouldn't be forced to.

The Join.Me suggestion is also good. I like it. x3 21:25, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Kittypet charart for Scourge?
Scourge was indeed a kittypet. Most of us know it. But looking back at his page, he has a charart for a kit, and a rogue, but no kittypet. So I think he should get one. Anybody else agree? Also, if he does, can I make it? :3<span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:1px solid; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: black;">Pikachushinx the power of the past 23:16, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think he gets one because he was a kit when he was a kittypet. owo 23:19, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

No. He was a kit, and the kittypet (and the rogue, loner, etc) are for cats above 6 moons, I believe. 23:49, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. He was a young kit. Skt and Duck have said it all.

Yes, but realize the Firestar was 6 moons, not over, when he became a clan cat. Therefore, he shouldn't get a kittypet either, if Scourge doesn't.<span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:1px solid; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: black;">Pikachushinx the power of the past 00:52, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

He was six moons. Meaning he should have gotten one. If he wasn't six moons at the time he left, he wouldn't have been allowed in as an apprentice. It would have been against the warrior code. 04:03, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

-_- That is what I just said. Kits become apprentices at six moons. Firestar was six moons exactly. I wish it was easier to explain my thoughts, then you would probably understand<span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:1px solid; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: black;">Pikachushinx the power of the past 18:58, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

We don't know if he was six moons exactly. He might be over six moons and under seven moons. Therefore making him not a kit. 19:04, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

(butts in) It's as simple as this: proove that Tiny was over six months old before he left his home and he can get a kittypet charart (though I'm fairly certain there is no definitive proof of his age whatsoever). Otherwise, no. 19:05, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Softpaw Blank Artist Forum
I have opened a forum discussion here. Voting begins on the 10th of September, you all have until then to submit your suggested designs. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. 03:17, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Join Request
Hi, I would like to join PCA. I am new here, I just joined the wiki yesterday. Can I join PCA? Please?

SkyAngelPuppy (talk) 17:13, September 3, 2012 (UTC)SkyAngelPuppy

'Course. I'll add you in as a kit right now. The guidelines are here and the apprentice tutorials are here. If you ever need help, do not refrain from asking one of the older, experienced members of the project. Good luck, and have fun! 22:43, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Friendly Reminder
just wanna remind SMs that when welcoming and adding a new member to the project, you should link them to the guidelines, the apprentice tutorials, and the mentor program. I've often seen SMs forget some of these and only post, say, the guidelines or something. I know I'm not really one to talk, I've done it too, but yeah, just thought I'd remind everyone. 14:11, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Join Charart
May I join the project? I'm a warrior in other wikis. ❄ Crystalheart  ❄  04:52, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'll add you in. Please read the Guidelines before commenting or posting artwork, and refer to the tutorials for any additional help you may need. Also go here to request for a mentor. Thank you for your interest in joining. 21:13, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Heyo
Heya guys. I'd just like to let y'all know that I will most likely be inactive until I can fix my computer or get a new one, since my current one is dead and my parents don't allow me on their computer. I am not sure of how long I will be inactive, and that's why I'm not posting on the vacation list. And if it's okay, I would like my softpaw blank entries to be kept on the forum. This inactivity applies to all projects. I shall miss y'all. ;w;

Goodbye
I saw you already removed me from te project, I know why, and Im sad, but I think im not fit anymore for this project. I like this wiki, and all of you. Im saying goodbye with sadness, officially now. I maybe return, but if you will need me (I dont think so), you can post a message on my talk page. ,20:02, September 8,2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Leaf. o.o You were inactive... Had you come back, we would have happily added you back in. Senior warrior ranking and all. Please come back when you have the time. </3