Warriors Wiki talk:World

Battle Template
Hi everyone, as I was looking through the wiki, I realized that our battle pages should probably be a tad more detailed. I think it would be more interesting and thorough if they looked something like they did on Wikipedia, for example, like this. So I drafted an idea of what I thought would be an okay example, since I am not very good at explaining what I mean. Of course, it would have to be more detailed, but that is the rough prospect I have so far. 19:51, April 3, 2018 (UTC)

Hey that draft looks really great^^ I'd be interested to see what it'd look like using our css, though. Also, it might be good to put an imput for which book it happened in, imo, since we're not quite like wikipedia where everything is date/place etc.

I have added more info to the template I linked. I am not sure if it was better before or if it is now. Personally I think it is more informative now than it was before. 01:58, April 7, 2018 (UTC)

I think we can use more Clan terminology for some of the headings. Like 'combatants' is a word I doubt has ever been uttered in the books. Maybe 'sides'? Same with Commanders and Casualties (might replace that with 'deaths' for example)Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  00:56, April 9, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Stealth, you could replace 'combatants' with 'participants' and 'commanders' with 'leaders.' Also is there a way to shrink this so it isn't crazy long? <01:10, 4/09/2018> ​

Technically I prefer what we have now because they were not all leaders of the Dark Forest and these are terms that seem more sophisticated. And the only way we can do that is by getting rid of some information. 06:16, April 9, 2018 (UTC)

Any more comments? 22:13, April 15, 2018 (UTC)

I honestly still stand my original comment. It needs to have more Warriors terminology. But, just three people's opinion isn't enough. So... anybody want to make a comment about it?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:00, April 16, 2018 (UTC)

Some warriors terminology might be nice^^ I agree with swapping them out, and for terms of sophistication... we're a wiki about talking cats, so it'll prolly be fine to use terms that better fit the books :P

All right, if that is what everyone agrees on I am fine with that. Can we go ahead and use the template? 21:07, April 29, 2018 (UTC)

Well, more specifically I think a few more tidbits could be added as well to your draft. These would be things like a general information header and removal of the source link at the bottom, since none of our others have that. Since the most recent draft is still using another wiki’s css, I hope you don’t mind that I’ve whipped up what I think might be a good final implementation of this concept, using our Clan MediaWiki styling along with this concept.

Just one question ... what is the difference between yours and mine, excluding the source part? 04:08, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

And the addition of name changes. 04:09, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

The difference, besides the two things you mentioned, is the addition of the general information header, and also mine uses Clan MediaWiki instead of the general MediaWiki the other templates use, such as Charcat and Book and such. This alters the width of the template, which imo looks better skinner like the Clan template with this concept

Wouldn’t it stay the same width such as my template due to the amount of detail in patrols? 04:16, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

I personally think it looks aesthetically better skinnier. TLH’s battle has a ton of patrols, but for the vast majority of battles, having it wide makes the lines of characters look uneven due to the bullet points, which center text, as is written into our MediaWiki overrides. So idk people prolly might disagree with me but I think it works much better with the smaller width for the majority of battles.

I changed it on mine to see the difference. I do not care for it either way, it does not matter to me. I still like the idea of the terms I use, but if you guys do not want to ... 22:25, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

Hm well, a suggestion, could you add a general information header and an image input? Each of the other infoboxes have that, even if it just has the noimage; I think the template looks better with those two things rather than having all the information at the very top. It might be a good idea to go ahead and change the terms as well... since the project majority seems to have said

Well I do not see why we need the noimage if there is going to be no image at all. 22:51, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

Also I was wondering if instead of "deaths" we could have "casualties and losses," to maybe refer to an extreme injury some cat got during the battle? Casualties do not just refer to deaths, and I think that maybe extreme injuries should be mentioned. 22:54, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

Another technicality, but 'General Clan Information' shouldn't have Clan - there are battles in which there are other groups than Clans, and it wouldn't be correct to list those ones under a Clan information header, rather, it would be just 'General Information'. I think the losses idea is rather nice, but per what has been said about terms before, 'Deaths and losses' would work better. The reason I said what I'd said about images was because while a default input might be noimage, there are images in the field guides depicting some of the battles, and those could be added to the page if the template includes an image input (though I get if we don't want to add those, because it'd take more work etc)

I will change that ... but there if we do not use field guide images in general (such as on images) then what is the point of using them on articles? 23:18, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

Comments? 03:31, May 7, 2018 (UTC)

Can we get to implementing this? 02:33, May 10, 2018 (UTC)

I can't really say anymore than what's been said. I say we go ahead with this.

It looks like the template has been added to all the battle articles. However, I noticed that in some articles, the death section says the name of the cats who died, while others just say which Clan they were from (for example: 5 ThunderClan cats) I think it should be the same for all the articles, so which should be listed? 08:50 Tue Jun 12

Fall of ShadowClan
I think we should have a page on the downfall of ShadowClan (Basically post Shattered Sky to River of Fire when its revived). I'd think that this event is very major and really does deserve it's own page. I am more than willing to create the page and you can view the basis of it here. Thoughts?

00:04, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

I don't see why not. It was an extremely important event that was mentioned in at least four books (Shattered Sky, Darkest Night, River of Fire, and Tigerheart's Shadow), resulted in multiple deaths, and causes a lot of problems. Although, I suppose you could actually say that it started in Thunder and Shadow, when Darktail and his rogues took over. Yeah, it's pretty vital to A Vision of Shadows and definitely warrants a page. (  00:12, 4/30/2018  ) ​

I agree this should get a page. It is really important to the current arc. 00:19, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

I agree^^

^ agreeing with above <02:13, 4/30/2018> ​ I agree but perhaps change some of the headings? I feel like Failure of a clan and Return of a Hero can be differently worded. 04:04, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah those can definitely be changed to something better, if you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them.

04:49, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

Do we need so many main characters? I am not sure all of them are classified as important enough to need their own section. 22:29, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

I figured Rowanclaw, Tawnypelt, Tigerstar, and Darktail were fairly important, I can cut out the others. Puddleshine, Needletail, Sleekwhisker, and Scorchfur I think can maybe go in the supporting characters section.

14:59, May 1, 2018 (UTC)

It might be wise to cut most of them out altogether, since the characters shouldn't be split as main and supporting - there's just one characters section for these pages^ I mean imo Needletail, seeing of how major a character she was up until her death, would still qualify, but the rest probably wouldn't

Violetshine and Needletail should definitely stay. Both of them were extremely important, especially with Violetshine later helping cats escape and coming up with the idea to knock cats out. While that could also be placed in the already existing page for the events regarding the Kin, I'd say the tension of being forcefully placed in ThunderClan didn't help any ShadowClan cat. I also agree with keeping Rowanclaw, Tawnypelt, Tigerheart, and Darktail, since each one of them played a vital role in what would have been ShadowClan's downfall. Puddleshine and Rain could probably be in supporting...but I don't know if each of them should have their own section. (  15:12, 5/01/2018  ) ​

I agree.

I like that idea. I'd just merge the two sections together then so it's Rowanclaw, Tawnypelt, Tigerheart, Darktail, Needletail, Puddleshine, and Rain?

15:59, May 1, 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good.

Add Violetshine to that list though^^ she's pretty heavily involved, but the rest looks great

Why add Scorchfur? He is not as important as the others. Also, change the headings, once again, return of a hero and failure of a Clan seems biased. 16:13, May 1, 2018 (UTC)

He seemed important when I was making it, although looking at the entire timespan he isn't as important as I had thought. Also changed the names, wasn't intending to sound biased at all.

16:24, May 1, 2018 (UTC)

Maybe we can add a template for it? Would anyone want me to draft one? 22:45, May 5, 2018 (UTC)

Created a draft. It's at the bottom, past the awards. 03:30, May 7, 2018 (UTC)

I love that!

I dunno, Icy, I'd say "failure of a Clan" isn't biased at all, given the story. It's hardly biased, especially when Rowanstar basically thought he'd failed ShadowClan. Also, I don't think we need a date there, since dates themselves aren't used within the series. Timeframe would work... and I'm not sure we need to repeat "affiliations" and "participants", unless you want to change one of them to "key characters".... seems a bit redundant how it is now. (  01:51, 5/13/2018  ) ​

Fixed. 02:22, May 13, 2018 (UTC)

I think you could maybe swap date with 'book' as well, since we don't have confirmed dates for most things from books^^ I think you could also make 'Timeframe' an optional imput through the coding, so that it's still in the template and all, but that it wouldn't appear in ones that don't have it. Just so it doesn't have to stay with the question marks^

Done. 21:34, May 15, 2018 (UTC)

One last thing for the template, but could you remove the source link at the bottom of the template? basically just scrap that last bit of code; for consistency, since none of the others have that, and maybe change the label for participants to key characters, since I'm working with it on a draft and it seems to work better if we don't list every cat, but just the mains

Also I'll stop bothering after this probably but could you add the general information header from the journey and battle templates, as well as a dividing header for 'Characters'? Imo the headers give it structure, and since this doesn't have as many inputs as battles, I think it might help

I believe you did that for me - thanks. 14:25, May 18, 2018 (UTC)

I think the template looks good. I just don't know if we should include books for the timeframe since ShadowClan didn't suddenly fall, it happened kind of graudally over time and if I remember right there wasn't a distinct time or book when ShadowClan started to fall. Also, I think that Rowanclaw would also be a key character. <span style="">07:51 Tue Jun 12

Journey Template
If we are going to create a battle template, I thought it might be an all right idea to create a journey template, no matter how insignificant it may appear to be. Here is a draft. 07:21, May 5, 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm imo, can you add a book imput? Other one has it, I think it might be useful for ones that span multiple books and such

I just replaced "Date" with Books, due to the fact that we probably could not get accurate dates. 20:56, May 8, 2018 (UTC)

I like the template, Icy. But if there isn't going to be a 'date', could we add a 'time duration' (ex. 5 days, one moon) because usually you can calculate how long the journeys take. <span style="">22:57 Fri May 11

Maple summed it up for me.

Jay, you do not need to repeat what Maple said. I already saw it. I will get around to adding it. 08:59, May 12, 2018 (UTC)

Added. 01:39, May 13, 2018 (UTC)

Any other comments? <span style="">02:10 Mon May 21

Battle Against the Kin
There are two instances of battles against the Kin in Shattered Sky. We have only one article, which, I believe is the latter one, in which Onestar kills Darktail. However, another one happens before that - and we do not distinguish it in this article. Should we create an article for the preceding battle, or combine it into one article? 13:19, May 14, 2018 (UTC)

Also, we should probably consider creating an article about the Kin when they attacked RiverClan's camp. There are so many battles involving them, yet we only have one article which I do not even know what battle it involves. 13:25, May 14, 2018 (UTC)

Right, there's the one that starts the books, then the two separate battles of chapters 17 and 19...and the premise section of the article has all three in it. I think splitting it would be best, since they're kinda separate conflicts, as well as having the RC article.

Maybe a "Battles of the Kin" page whereas it describes the battles they participated in, which would include the one in TAS, and the three in SS, which would each have their own subsections.

13:56, May 14, 2018 (UTC)

So The Kin has four battles, and each battle should get its own page, even if some of them are short (like the first one in Shattered Sky.) 14:07, May 14, 2018 (UTC)

Splitting them up is the best way to go. They are different battles.

Any ideas on the name for the articles? Maybe like, "First battle against the Kin," "Second battle against the Kin," etc. 13:10, June 5, 2018 (UTC)

Just ideas, but the first one as with WindClan, so maybe "Skirmish with WindClan". Then there was RiverClan and the Kin, so perhaps "Battle for RiverClan", then there was the two when then Clans fought, although I'm not sure what they would be called.

13:28, June 5, 2018 (UTC)

I don't remember all of the battles against the Kin, but I do think that the first battle in SS should get its own page. I would also support a page of just battles against the kin (or a section in The Kin article that is about the battles they had with the Clans), that briefly summarizes what happened in each battle.

For names, maybe something like "WindClan battle against the Kin" for the first battle (which was I think the Kin vs. WindClan? correct me if I am wrong) or "Final Battle Against the Kin" for the final battle where Onestar and Darktail die. <span style="">07:34 Tue Jun 12

More battle idea articles

 * The battle with ShadowClan in Into the Wild, the first one where ShadowClan invades the camp
 * The second one where Firepaw and Graypaw rescue the kits
 * ShadowClan driving out WindClan, iirc there's a part in Secrets of the Clans describing it, and in general is described very thoroughly even though never written about
 * The battle with RiverClan and ShadowClan attacking WindClan in Fire and Ice
 * The battle with ShadowClan and WindClan against ThunderClan in Forest of Secrets

I will add more as I think of them. 17:35, May 16, 2018 (UTC)

I was also thinking (this could go for the earlier discussion as well) if we do not want to make so many separate articles, perhaps we could make an article, like "Attacks by combined Clans" or "Attacks on ThunderClan" or something else and have sections describing each attack? 17:38, May 16, 2018 (UTC)

Just gonna pop in here and say that if we make an "Attacks on ThunderClan" page, we should probably make one for each of the Clans, since it wouldn't make sense to only show attacks on ThunderClan, when to my knowledge, at least every Clan has had one attack aimed at them. WindClan prior to Into the Wild, ShadowClan during Into the Wild, RiverClan was attacked by Darktail, SkyClan's battle with the rogues/Darktail's cats, ect. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; text-shadow:#fc00ff 0.1em 0.1em 0.3em; color:#000000; font-size:86%">(  <span style="font-family:century gothic; text-shadow:#fc00ff 0.0em 0.0em 0.2em; color:#000000; font-size:85%">17:47, 5/16/2018  <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; text-shadow:#fc00ff 0.1em 0.1em 0.3em; color:#000000; font-size:86%">) ​

I will be dumping all of the ideas on events.

These ideas are excellent. I don't know why we wouldn't create them.

So here is what I believe the consensus is: we can create these articles, but preferably they would only be created if someone has a plan to work on them. 12:04, June 7, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Icy about creating the article ^ But maybe combine the WindClan VS Shadow and RiverClan battle with WindClan being driven out, because if I am remembering correctly, ShadowClan and RiverClan battled WindClan to try to drive them out again... so the battle would kind of be the aftermath of WindClan getting driven out then coming back. <span style="">07:59 Tue Jun 12

Articles for critical plot events
Since there are a lot of critical plot events in Warriors, such as the jealousy between Dovewing / Ivypool that led to Ivypool training in the DF, the entirety of "Fire alone can save our Clan," Tigerstar's treachery, the Three's parentage, etc, etc, I know this is somewhat of a longshot but maybe we could have an article on some of those that describe the event in general? This is not like a journey article, but something that goes on about something that is very important yet is not an event in general, just spans over a few books. 02:15, May 21, 2018 (UTC)

It would depend on what it was^^ A lot of the examples you said would work quite well for articles, but we'd have to be careful and cite a lot on these because (for example) the Dove/Ivy one could get subjective. I like the idea of having some, though

Like Spooky said, it depends on exactly which ones you wanted to set up.

The events I brought up on another article, which I believe is Events. 12:42, May 31, 2018 (UTC)

The Long Dry - Rename Or Split
So The Long Dry is about the journey to the beavers' dam. I believe that either 1.) a rename is in order for that page, or 2.) we make two articles, one that is about the Long Dry (which would be the drought in the Clans) and the other about the journey. 00:57, May 22, 2018 (UTC)

I think we should make two articles.

Well... the page was originally named Journey to the Beaver Dam, hence why it has almost nothing about the drought itself in it - but PW decided to move it. It does make sense to move it back, though, and then we could make a separate article for The Long Dry, since it is a canon title.

Any other comments? 13:02, June 5, 2018 (UTC)

It's been years since I've read this book so I forgot, but was the actual drought itself that big of an event that it needs to have its own article? Right now the article mentions the drought in the "before the journey" section, so is that not enough? <span style="">08:22 Tue Jun 12

Cites on articles
I am wondering what the rule for cites on articles should be. On some articles, we do not have cites - some articles, there are cites only in descriptions / facts, and others with cites in description and history. For all World related articles, should we have cites in the history? Or just description? 00:13, May 23, 2018 (UTC)

I think that on event articles there should be cites in all sections, but that other articles such as 'Dog' could have no cites in the history/book mentions section since it's kinda like a character page. Events would need them still though, due to them often combining several books and not having clear book headers etc. like some of the more traditional PW pages

Any other comments? 12:02, June 7, 2018 (UTC)

I think that there should be cites for all articles, except for the history section of events/animals, which I think would be fine with or without cites. I still think citing the history would be better than not citing, but maybe just giving citations for each chapter instead of every page, if that makes sense. <span style="">07:06 Tue Jun 12

Summaries
PW must hate me by now. This is technically the same discussion I brought up in PC - can we have a summary for each important event? Just a short synopsis. 05:16, May 23, 2018 (UTC)

Sure.

Comments? 00:21, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

I say yes, sounds like a good idea. Would we be making a page for all of them to go on? 19:52, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm it would be good to do that. We could have one large page of events, but we could also specify it like 'Journeys', 'Battles' - each a page with synopsis' for each of those. Splitting it might help with page length.

Isn't there already a summary for each event? For example, in Journey to find SkyClan (FQ), the beginning of the article says it was "when Firestar and Sandstorm travel away from ThunderClan to find and rebuild the fifth Clan, SkyClan. ", or in The Great Hunger it is a "starvation epidemic that took place in Goosefeather's Curse, killing several ThunderClan cats."; or do you mean having a slightly more detailed summary?

Also, I like the idea of having a page separate of the Events timeline that lists the journeys and battles. <span style="">07:17 Tue Jun 12

Mediator page
Since it's an official role as of River of Fire, should a page be made for it? Granted, the only cat with the role is Tree, but if it's official I think it should warrant a page.

20:33, June 7, 2018 (UTC)

It definitely deserves a page.

Yep. Wondering if we should wait for The Raging Storm to release, but even if not, it is a role and deserves to be created. 00:20, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Agreeing with everyone else. It's its own rank, it has its own blank, I don't see why it wouldn't have its own page. I don't think we'd have to wait for The Raging Storm's release, it appeared in River of Fire, which has already been released, so I'd think we could create the page whenever. 19:50, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

I agree^^ Should have a page just like all the other ranks

I definitely agree that it deserves a page. I think that we should make the page now, and if there is more information about the Mediator role in TRS, we can update the page. <span style="">07:20 Tue Jun 12