Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Family Tree Icons
To what extent should we use these for a cat's description? (sounds like an essay question not my intention lol) We've already used these for Swiftbreeze and such. Another question is what if they've been consistently depicted in a certain way? (for example, Tawnypelt being tortie-and-white in every artwork of her)

like it was said in the discord, it should be all or nothing really, unless it's specifically contradicted. it is technically an official source after all. 15:54, March 2, 2019 (UTC)

We don't merge manga descriptions with book ones, so how's that any different tbh? If we take icons, but won't merge published mangas, then we run into the same dilemma. And if we take colors from the official tree, then we should be matching the shades to them as well, because it's a visual source and not a written one, otherwise we get into the combining tons of partials range. Tawnypelt is a notable example, she's pale and mottled in the books, but definitely not so in her art. Imo, we should be taking the official art because it's so consistent in said case, but if we do then that has to be something we do for others too. The website has also picked up a habit of... copying our errors lmao, even though we fix them it's like an accordion effect, and so when it eventually gets fixed it'll be for moot rip

I agree not to merge the descriptions. It should be seen as an alt tbh 17:26, 3/03/2019

My question is... who are we to decide what does or doesn't count? The family trees are officially released content from Working Partners. Why should it be seen as an alt? Because it "contradicts written text"? Because in the cases of Tawnypelt and Shellpaw, at least, it doesn't contradict anything- it adds onto their current description and is in no way, shape, or form a contradiction. In Tawnypelt's case, both "pale" and "mottled" were used less than the amount of times she is depicted as a "darker" tortie-and-white. Given that the designs are used across various pieces of media (The Ultimate Guide, Cats of the Clans, Battles of the Clans, and the family tree), I feel we shouldn't be regarding that instance as a mistake.

I could see merging the descriptions if it does not contradict what we have. But, that in and of itself should only apply to when a character is actually addressed as said description. For Tawnypelt, that wouldn't be merging, as she is depicted as a tortie. For others, it might be considered combining two sources that have nothing to do with one another.

Mapleshade has a good example: she was said to have a white tail while she is called ginger-and-white. We cannot and should not combine that with her tortie-and-white description, because she was not called tortie-and-white in the book where the mention occurred. Most of these can be used in some way, like changing Swiftbreeze's coloring, but we need to look at them with a close eye and probably even in a case-by-case basis to some extent. They shouldn't be added without discussing it completely here, though. ​​​​

I think I agree most with Troll. All or nothing.

I've been thinking for a bit of the family tree icons. If you look, I think it's supposed to represent their heads. Their shaped like cat's heads, the tabbies have the tabby pattern of a cat's head. So I'm not sure the description we take from them is supposed to be describing their heads or something (e.g. Tawnypelt has white on her head?)Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:29, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

As Jayie said in the chat, these icons weren't meant to be totally accurate and detailed descriptions, and things such as tabby markings and speckles likely wouldn't be fixed in the future to be completely true to what a cat is. They're not complete, and not always 100% accurate, then. I think we should be careful with what we do with these and some as alts might be more accurate - a tiny icon shouldn't determine a cat's listed appearance with the addition of a new color, when it's not necessarily reflecting the cat's whole description.

So you're saying it's like in book allegiances where it's only of a partial of their full description? So like Tawnypelt is a mottled tortoiseshell while her allegiances generally say tortoiseshell, while her family tree icon shows her as tortoiseshell-and-white?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:04, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

It's not a detailed description, but it's still a representation. Even though it's simplistic, I'm sure people can reasonably deduce a color and what the icon is supposed to represent, like Tawnypelt having white. It may be a case by case basis (like whether the official art also consistently depicts the cat in a certain way) but we still should take the icons into some consideration.

i think we should take some of the icons into consideration, but for the ones that totally contradict their descriptions (coughcough dustpelt) then no merging. it really depends tbh. because these are still official in a way. r ♥  ' ve always been" data-rte-attribs=" style title=will i ever be more than i've always been"&gt;waving through ' m tap, tap, tappin on the glass" data-rte-attribs=" style title=cuz i'm tap, tap, tappin on the glass"&gt;a window <02:26, 3/23/2019> ​

Dustpelt's icon has been fixed. However, I think a mergable icon would be Tawnypelt's, as she is listed as tortie-and-white, and most of her official art, including her image for her own novella, depict her as white. I'd say it would be enough to merge white in her description. 16:35, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

is this going anywhere

I think the general consensus is we take the family tree icons as a partial (unless it completely contradicts of course).Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:12, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Anymore comments? r ♥  ' ve always been" data-rte-attribs=" style title=will i ever be more than i've always been"&gt;waving through ' m tap, tap, tappin on the glass" data-rte-attribs=" style title=cuz i'm tap, tap, tappin on the glass"&gt;a window <23:34, 4/30/2019> ​

Known Leaders and Medicine Cat Apprentices
I've been in kahoots with some community members I follow on Twitter and they've brought up a concern that I share. On the Clan pages, there is not a list of known leaders, deputies, or medicine cats. While there is a rank list based upon chronological order/succession, this excludes certain cats from Codes of the Clans, such as Owlstar the second and Dovestar. While we do not know their succession or even descriptions, they're still leaders and deserve to be on the Clan page. I do not know if there are any deputies or medicine cats that share this, but those should be included as well. Maybe on the charts adding a row for them on the bottom and put succession unknown on there? Or maybe even doing a "ThunderClan Leader" category or something.

In addition, I've also been asked about medicine cat apprentices being included on the page. Their role in the Clan is different from normal apprentices, and they are tasked with the responsibility of healing the Clan almost immediately. Maybe not by succession, but maybe by who they trained under? Thoughts? 19:27, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

I too, have been thinking about the med cat apprentices for a while now, and I second the idea of giving them their own section. Also the idea of marking down who they trained under? Is awesome. On another note, doing a Thunderclan leader, Riverclan leader, Skyclan leader, etc, would be very helpful. Heck, even dividing up the other roles that that would be neat.Ghobsmacka (talk) 20:18, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Well, we do have this, which is listed on leader. We could start categorizing them as 'ThunderClan leaders' though and slap a DPL to auto-make a displayable list, though. Personally, a MCA column would fit best in the same ways deputies are listed next to their leaders, with a then separate chart for their own listings; more neat.

I've added a couple of options here for grins. I personally think adding a separate column in the medicine cats for their apprentices looks better imo. As for this, it still not a complete list. I think all of the leaders should be listed on the Clan pages because it makes more sense imo and it's all there in one place. 01:02, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I'm a tad bit confused with where this is going. Isn't this already implemented on the Clan article pages? Or is this a more in-depth list? What I'm seeing, Vec, is something that's already listed on pages like ThunderClan. We could always just modify that to include every known one, instead of having it done by known succession order... unless I'm completely missing the point here? It's late and I'm tired, I apologize. ​​​

Nah, it's okay Jayce. For the leaders, I'm just pointing out that the list of leaders we already have does not include everyone...mostly just Owlstar the 2nd and Dovestar of RiverClan. They aren't included in the list because we don't know the order of succession; Leafpool just casually mentioned them in one of the last chapters of Code of the Clans. I'm pointing out they should be included because they are still leaders of ThunderClan...and because members of the community over the years have wanted the full list; I can think back to my old deviantart days when people grumbled about this.

I think we should keep the known order of succession, since that is also very important, and just add a footnote at the bottom of the leader chart saying something like "Owlstar (CotC)'s order of succession is unknown but he appears in Code of the Clans." I just want them mentioned haha. And the mca to the lists too maybe. 12:47, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Well you could always try, instead of succession or since its pretty much shown in the books. You could always do it by books, since those seem to have an order? 13:43, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah sure we can tack it on the end. Any other comments?

This seems like a good idea, and maybe list the leaders/mc's in alphabetical order? Anyways you could probably tack it on the end like Spooky said.

Any other comments?

family relations, trivia, and ancestry
so about the family sections; some of them are REALLY long, and I came up with the idea of pruning the cousins to 2nd/possibly 3rd cousins at the most, since by that point they're barely related enough for it to matter. the same would apply for ancestry, like a cat with skyclan blood doesn't matter unless it's a fairly close relation/is important to their character, and could be removed from the trivia as well. maybe like grandparents and such at most? what does everyone think? 20:52, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

another idea is maybe changing up the cousins section slightly so it's first and second cousins as their own listing, so it's easier to differentiate and we won't have to worry about filtering other cousins out after that. 20:55, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

I honestly don't think we should remove any family members, and we have already been doing well in making it easier for pages to load (the /family pages, 'see more', etc) If the cousin area is getting too long for some characters, I agree it would be good to split it up more.Stealth f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:09, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

the thing is even in warriors relations don't matter so much except for the immediate family, and we only hve this listed so it's somewhat easier to keep track of. if a cat is like a 7th cousin to someone, is anything really lost by removing them? they're a distant relation at that point and all it really does is serve to clog up the page, and if you can't tell what relation a cat is within a couple minutes, is there any point even then? it's not helping anyone. 21:15, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

I honestly don't think we need to list every cousin a cat has; not only does it get redundant in some cases, there comes a time where they actually start to not really be family. The third or fourth cousins really aren't considered family and in some cases, it's just messy. These lists are getting extremely cluttered and messy and hard to keep track of.

I would also like to suggest breaking down the family trees a little more as well and have them focusing on said cat instead of their ENTIRE line. For example, why should a cat like Lionblaze just use Windstar's tree when he can have a tree more focused on him and a bit smaller and easier to edit? A tree doesn't need to focus on an entire line and should focus on said character. ​

Concurring with Skye^^

Alright I'm starting to get what you mean. Just list up to 3rd/4th cousins? That makes sense.

So with the family trees thing, you're saying we should have (for big families), a family tree for every cat/litter, that only shows the family that is listed on their page? I can see that working. That would mean a lot more family pages templates to deal with but if we're okay with that, I could make it work.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:32, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Oh gosh I'm having so much trouble with updating family trees yeah I think we need to put a cap on how many family members we place on family trees and on pages. I had a thought about it, and I think we can use where cats have acknowledged who is (and who isn't kin).

To make it short, Firestar is acknowledged to be Dovewing's kin, so we would include great-great-uncle/great grand-nieces. I think going just 1 above (their parents) is the furthest to go. Now Lionblaze and Tigerstar (the 1st one) are actually kin but it is not acknowledged in the books. Tigerstar is the kit of Lionblaze's great-great aunt, so I'd say show great-great aunt/uncles, but not their siblings.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:27, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Honestly I'd say go to two greats (maybe three) unless it's mentioned that they are kin/significant to their destiny or whatever (coughcough the three coughcough). Same with cousins, only list up to second cousins. Anything else will probably clog up the section and confuse people.

nudging for comments 17:34, May 15, 2019 (UTC)

Has been a fairly small discussion, but since it's sat for so long, what we do have is that most think we shouldn't list anything above three removed, unless it's prophecy related (for a bloodline). Any other comments?

so after testing on a cat with a detailed family, i think it might be best to stay at 2nd cousins, because it just strips out a lot of junk. that and after second, it's barely related tbh. 00:00, June 9, 2019 (UTC)

Bramblestar
Major spoilers for Lost Stars

So in Lost Stars, Bramblestar dies. Obviously it would be counted as a loss of one of his nine lives. The thing is though, Bramblestar was dead for over a night, and Jayfeather even announced that Bramblestar was dead, and the elders were getting ready to bury him. Sparkpelt and Whitewing were actually urging Squirrelflight to take up the leadership position, and Squirrelflight basically became the de facto leader of ThunderClan.

Though afterwards, Bramblestar comes back to life, acting as if he simply just lost a life, and ignoring that he was actually dead. Reminder, Jayfeather was there the whole time, and Bramblestar had stopped breathing and his body was cold. Though one thing to note, is that when the other leaders press him about coming back to life, Bramblestar gets really defensive about it, and doesn't outright say he lost a single life at all.

So, did Bramblestar genuinely die? (mind you, the Clans had apparently lost their connection with StarClan), or did he lose a single life? Unsure how to even list it.

21:58, April 10, 2019 (UTC)

well honestly i think that he's a ghost right now. given the cliffhanger on rootpaw seeing his ghost in skyclan's territory, plus the fact the entire blurb for the silent thaw is about an apparition and bramblestar's strange behavior. i think its pretty obvious that bramblestar died completely, given their shutoff to starclan and the fact that the "one starclan cat" talking to shadowpaw obviously did not have good intentions, and rootpaw seeing a shadow behind bramblestar?? thats just my onion tho <span style="">01:02, 4/15/2019

I honestly think it's too early to confirm what's up with Bramblestar. There's not enough information to make a decision imo, since "Bramblestar" is still alive (at least the Clan's pov) and leading ThunderClan, and Rootpaw seeing something in the woods. I don't think we should make a decision at all since the characters themselves don't know what is going on...whether he did died or just lost a life. 02:41, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

Speaking of the blurb, it specifically says he lost one of his lives. So I think for now, we should have it as lost a life.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:35, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Yep, Stealth has a point there. The Silent Thaw's blurb specifically says "After Bramblestar loses one of his nine lives", which practically confirms the mystery illness did indeed take this life from him. And he did die, the medicine cats dectected zero pulse from his heart, so he did die. If I remember correctly I think StarClan may have come to him but I can't remember. We should just list it. 21:55, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

We know he lost one life, so that's that. But he'd also get the |seconddeath= thing we have for Tigerheartstar just in the infobox, to reflect that he did die;; it was unconventional enough for that I'd think. The little visage of him could've been not real.

i personally think hes dead dead but it might be too earlly too tellWillowstep12 (talk) 12:36, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

what kind of cat has no scent -rootpawWillowstep12 (talk) 12:38, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

Spoilers end

Parents, cite validity
Alright, so, this mainly applies to Darkstripe and Sandstorm. Both of them have cited parents, Darkstripe's supposedly being Willowpelt and Tawnyspots, and Sandstorm's being Redtail and Brindleface. I want to contest both of these cites, due to the fact that Redtail's Debt was released and I feel it doesn't support either one of these cats having those parents.

In the case of Willowpelt and Tawnyspots, the latter is dead before Willowpelt is even made a warrior, and it's never touched up or even implied that Willowpelt could have been pregnant. While the family tree lists this pairing, I feel they copied our information, taken from Vicky's Facebook nine years ago. It's pretty clear this is no longer the case, and Redtail's Debt, again, heavily supports this.

For Sandstorm's case, the novella, once more, does not even touch upon this subject. Again, while the family tree supposedly has this information, it's never touched upon once within the story. If Redtail is supposedly Sandstorm's father, this information would have more than likely have been said in his novella, and it's not, despite the fact that this time period is shown, due to Ravenpaw's appearance and whatnot.

tldr; I'm calling into question the validity of BOTH Willow/Tawny and Brindle/Red due to using very outdated citations as proof, the information within (and lacking) Redtail's Debt, and the insane amount of errors within the website's family tree. ​​

as much as i hate to admit it...im gonna have to agree with the statements above. theres nothing in RD that even implies redtail was mates with anyone, and yeah tawnyspots kinda...died before willowpelt was a warrior <span style="">01:04, 4/15/2019

Yeah, this should be removed. WillowXTawny has many problems, including Willowpaw being an apprentice and no way possible to bear kits, while Tawnyspots is sick and dies. As for RedXBrindle, there is completely no evidence in the books that suggests Sandstorm's parents. The Warriors app is also very outdated, so at some point the Erins may have changed their mind. These should be removed. 21:52, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with WillowXTawny. I'm not so sure with Redtail. The focus of that novella was Redtail and Tigerclaw, the apprentices of Sandpaw's generation were barely featured. We got three cites of it as well (Vicky/warriors app/family tree) so I'm not 100% sure of getting rid of it.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:38, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

Both should go. Tawny/Willow is definitely just not physically plausible, given his death and her apprenticeship, and lack of all canonicity. I'm inclined to agree with above on Redtail/Brindle as well - no proof in books at all. There's really none, the tree is full of errors, the post we pull it from is faulty, Vicky's backtracking...the app is questionable in validity as it hails from the same era as the old site. So, for me, remove that as well.

tawny and willow should go, but i dont know about redtail. nothings actually contradicting it, it was just glossed over in a rush o get to......the mistake. 19:30, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

In Redtail's Debt there's actually a timeskip (chapter 7, specifically) for when Bluestar is deputy, to when she's now the leader and Redtail is deputy. That's a considerable amount of time so it's entirely possible Redtail fathered Sandstorm during that time period, though it's obviously not stated in book. Willow/Tawny is just completely impossible in itself so if anything that one should be removed.

01:00, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

I think both cites need to be removed. Redtail could definitely have fathered Sandstorm, but there is absolutely nothing in the books to support it. Those cites we got from Vicky are old and the family tree is full of errors. Until any future books gives us a more reliable source, it should be removed. 23:32, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

Redtail I'm not sure, because it doesn't focus on that (disappointed but anyways), but Willow and Tawny? Don't think so. RD doesn't focus on his family, it focuses on his debt/mistake/whatever the story was about, but eh i doubt they'll reveal it in the near future. r ♥  <span style="style" title="will i ever be more than i&lt;span data-rte-entity=">' ve always been" data-rte-attribs=" style title=will i ever be more than i've always been"&gt;waving through <span style="style" title="cuz i&lt;span data-rte-entity=">' m tap, tap, tappin on the glass" data-rte-attribs=" style title=cuz i'm tap, tap, tappin on the glass"&gt;a window <23:34, 4/30/2019> ​

mistystar
so in lost stars mistystar was directly called pale blue-grey. i know we had a discussion about this just before but this calls it into question again. do we go with kates cite saying shes just regular or with this? 19:25, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Here's the exact cite for reference: “That’s true,” Mistystar responded, her pale blue-gray pelt glimmering among the branches of the Great Oak. (chapter 20)

I don't think we can ignore this. It's a book cite from a very recent book and very directly says she is pale blue-grey.

Note that Cherith wrote this book, so perhaps she and Kate have different ideas on what Mistystar looks like? Who knows.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:19, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

I'd go with the book cite, because it's recent + it's clarifying the shade of gray. r ♥  <span style="style" title="will i ever be more than i&lt;span data-rte-entity=">' ve always been" data-rte-attribs=" style title=will i ever be more than i've always been"&gt;waving through <span style="style" title="cuz i&lt;span data-rte-entity=">' m tap, tap, tappin on the glass" data-rte-attribs=" style title=cuz i'm tap, tap, tappin on the glass"&gt;a window <23:34, 4/30/2019> ​

nudging for comments 17:34, May 15, 2019 (UTC)

Wow, that's the first time she's actually called pale blue-gray all in one go that I can remember. If that's what the book says, then so be it. Change it.

Family Trees
I was getting too focused on family trees on the other topic so I decided to move it here.

There's been talk of having smaller family trees that are more focused on individual cats rather than lines. This makes sense for cats like Sandgorse. He only has three family members, but has been given a very large tree. If we are happy to take on managing more trees, I can easily create new smaller trees from the already existing bigger trees.

For certain cats however, we need to think about who to include on their trees. Lionblaze for example has a humongous number of family members, and cats like Flashnose have quite a lot of descendants, so we need to decide which family members to add to their tree.

I've done a little experimenting, and have made a draft for a Lionblaze/Jayfeather/Hollyleaf tree. Basically, I've shown their immediately family, grandkits/grandnieces/nephews (as well as half-nieces), aunts/uncles, first cousins & their kits, grandparents, grand-aunts/uncles and great-grandparents. A little bit messy in this example as Firestar/Sandstorm have a lot of siblings, but it works.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:24, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Driftkit's official art
Right now, we don't have a description of Driftkit, but we do have an official art of him. I'm wondering if like manga only characters, we should take their official art as their official descriptions, since we have nothing else to go by.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:40, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we should. Other official arts are a depiction of a cat's description. From the picture, it appears he is a gray tom with darker spots. 12:50, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Hm yeah in this case sure.

I found another case. So when you reach Code 11 in CotC, there is a picture next to it. Underneath it says "Code 10" and there is a ginger cat with white legs on the Great Rock. That can't be Daisyheart, since she was not mentioned to be next to the Great Rock in that story, and not Ripplestar either since he fell and died, plus he's not ginger with white legs. The only cat on the Great Rock still is Finchstar. So, does that image count as Finchstar's description as well? 15:06, May 4, 2019 (UTC)

can we use this if we don't use images as sources though? obviously he's not described with anything else, but it seems like picking and choosing if we're doing this but not using other images as descriptors, and also using said images for art alts and trivia and whatnot? 17:37, May 15, 2019 (UTC)

Haven't we always taken manga images as source if there's nothing else? Even before the recolors, I believe it was always policy to write conjecture based on what the picture appeared to be in black-and-white, and this is in the same type of tones, so we could apply that form of precedent here, in theory

Kate's validity
I know we all love Kate but I'd like to discuss on how much pull she exactly has. While obviously she's an author, it's been the editors who make more of the decisions for the series (cough cough Beetlewhisker). One of the things we get flamed for is taking her word as canon over the books. Examples that come to mind are Leafshine and Spotfur, since their descriptions have been updated to what she's said. One thing, however, is the fact that she listed Harrybrook and Reedclaw as Kitepaw and Turtlepaw's parents. While this is kind of impossible (Reedclaw wasn't even shown to be pregnant before Violetshine and she's kinda young??) it hasn't made it past the editors yet (I believe) and seems to be Kate's headcanon for all three things listed here, if we're taking her headcanon for Leafshine and Spotfur, then we can't leave out that she listed Reed and Harry as mates. There's other examples of things we've taken her word on, but these are the most recent.

Basically, how valid can we view Kate's word? I respect her as one of the authors but because she just doesn't have as much of a say anymore for the series makes me wonder if we can take her word as firm canon.

03:56, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

i still say we only take things that dont contradict what the books have said (direct, undebatable confirmations like "such and such is grey") because otherwise we are going to lose a lot of shit. even things like firestar's death confirmation. something like reed and harry (personal feelings about it besides) wouldnt be because ahe casts it into doubt by saying its in her own personal allegiances vs just saying yeah sure a cat is tbis colour. 06:41, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

No I don't think we can just not use her word anymore. She writes a lot of the books, she is the 'brain' around much of the series. I don't think we can just dismiss her. She has stated before (and I agree with it) that author word comes second to the books. As long as what she says does not contradict the books, and it is a clear "this is..." and not "I think" or "I believe", then we can take her word. Right now, she is our best source of information outside of the books, and getting rid of that is not a good idea.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:04, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

"This is a Schrödinger’s cat question; as long as the description is unwritten in a book, the cat is any colour. There is no way to know until the description is written in a book. My describing it here will not make it so. It will just make a version that may or may not be true." She said this in response to a question asking her for a cat's coat color, which suggests that anything that's not the book =/= canon. We can't be cherrypicking what's canon and what's not.

And this too: "He is unable to answer questions that are not canon because, if it is not written, it is not canon." (Of course I'm only assuming Kate wrote this)

that does only point out the coat colours though. so would that even count for things that arent descriptions? the second thing i think is just because people shouldnt be asking just to add stuffto the wiki. 07:59, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

Uhh, the link leads to a page literally says "Only things that the authors themselves confirm can be added to the Warriors Wiki." Sounds like Jaysnow said that part but wow is that contradictory. I also read that sentence first before the one you referenced Fox so I was pretty confused at first XD<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  10:43, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

I think that was added by Jaysnow. Not sure about the first part though, but the first sentence I referenced was a comment by Kate.

The amount of times she's said 'if it isn't in the books, it isn't canon' or something very similar needs to be taken into account. She's given outlines of the book to write, and she does have say to clear up things like that whole Rippletail mess, but - she's not all the authors. We never hear from the novella team or Cherith and always take Kate's word as god in many f these cases, when this series isn't entirely hers, but rather WP's. I do believe we can just stop using this stuff altogether. We've run into instances in the past where her word directly contradicts the books, and we take her word. Even in cases where it doesn't contradict the books now, it could very well in the future. I like a lot of the stuff, but to me, it's all or none, in the interest of non-cherrypicking. And in the interest of maintaining a steady encyclopedia, I'd be in support of taking out the one source of unpredictability we have left, which is all these links subject to change.

we still take stuff from like the tree which is also subject to random changes, so I don't see how it being a bit unpredictable is really different from that. if it contradicts in the future that can just be removed and replaced with what the books say? like needletail's lineage for instance. I think we just need to be far more stringent with what we take as citable and possibly even havea thing stating that it comes from kate/whoever. 19:20, May 16, 2019 (UTC)

I guess the main difference is other is on the official site and so far no one said it wasn't to be taken as canon.

When we originally started taking Kate and Vicky's words, we didn't have the problems we do now. I think part of this also stems from people constantly asking Kate silly questions about things in the series all because they want their answers listed on the wiki. Asking Kate for answers just to have what you want listed on the wiki is, quite frankly, extremely annoying and makes it seem like we endorse badgering the authors for answers when we clearly do not. I feel if we could nip that problem, we might not get as many problems in the future.

I think if we continue to use Kate (and by extent, Vicky's old answers) as a resource, we need to re-evaluate what we consider an acceptable answer and what could very well be seen as a headcanon or just an idea. I also feel we can't just ignore Kate when she says that it's not canon unless it's mentioned in the books, though... and we should probably address that.

I don't think we can just get rid of everything- as one of the authors, she has insights that we wouldn't normally get otherwise. Firestar's death is an example of this: his death isn't really the clearest in the book, but asking Kate what the scene was meant to read as would be an acceptable cite. She's also never gone back on her word with that and has been saying that Firestar's wounds are his cause of death for over six years now lmao.

PC Idea
So I had a little idea that I use on my own wiki for cats that haven't been seen since a certain book and its almost realistically impossible they're alive so I suggested we could something like saying Status unknown, last seen living (As of book name). I got a little feedback from Jayce on this and they suggested just doing Last seen as living (As of book title). Thoughts? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 18:40, May 24, 2019 (UTC)

Don't see why not, though we basically do the same thing since (as of now) we list it as "Alive as of Book name". Though it is pretty unrealistic for some characters to be alive as of Lost Stars.

02:56, May 26, 2019 (UTC)

That's not what I mean though (unless I'm not understand), this is for characters that never appeared again in TPB and before as after its still possible that they're alive but I think once they're omitted from the allegiances several times and never seen again. This would be a good idea. For cats like Brightflower (i think shes one), we dont know for sure if they died or are out they're somewhere so putting Last seen as living (As of BookName) would fit it better than stating alive <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 22:55, May 30, 2019 (UTC)

It's not quite listing them as alive, Mink... Living (As of [book]) is honestly just a shorter version of what you suggested. I wouldn't mind changing the phrasing a bit, but it does actually mean what you're trying to suggest here.

honeyleaf and swallowflight
so I'm just curious as to why one's listed as a rogue and why one is listed as a loner? they left together (at least as far up as exploring the gorge, but I doubt we'll ever know if they all stayed togetehr or not after that) so wouldn't it make sense for them both to be the same ranking? but since it doesn't explicitly call them loners or rogues, which one should it be? 21:16, May 29, 2019 (UTC)

I was always under the impression Honeyleaf and Swallowflight become rogues while anybody who stayed with Spiderstar became loners by default. I checked SD and they aren't stated to be either, only that they're going up the river to see if there's better hunting. If anything they should be listed as loner OR rogue imo.

22:02, May 30, 2019 (UTC)

If they weren't stated to be a loner or rogue, we should just do the last known affiliation for them. As I don't think assuming they were one or the other. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 22:56, May 30, 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, subjective admittedly, but I always assumed they were listed based on the opinions they displayed. The definitions we have for loners are non-hostile to Clans, while rogues are hostile; Honeyleaf was defending the Clan's ways, while Swallowflight was the opposite. I suppose we could just make it both, but I'm also okay with leaving it be.

To my knowledge, Spooky's right with the Honeyleaf and Swallowflight listings. Technically, one of them could have even become a kittypet in the future and changed their mind after leaving SkyClan. I'd be fine with listing "loner or rogue". The ones that stayed with Spiderstar were listed as loners afterwards due to SkyClan no longer existing and whatnot.

warrior cites for sl
so in shadowstar's life, the cats are only referred to as hunters in the allegiances. throughout the whole book, the cats are consistently called warriors, even if they're not being directly called one like say, dew petal was. how would we go about citing that? a note for a cite or something else? 22:43, May 29, 2019 (UTC)

if the cats are directly called warriors i think they should get it. to me the term "hunter" seems like a subgroup of warriors, but they still have the rank, if that makes sense.

22:02, May 30, 2019 (UTC)

A little OOU ref note sounds fine to me, for the cats not called directly. By that point, I feel it's far enough in the timeline to say hunters = warriors the same way we'd counted them the other way around, and how moor-runners mix with warriors etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if this editorial team forgets that the ancient cats weren't actually called warriors...so they seem to have migrated the term into the series and acting like the role was there from the start. It's pretty clear now that hunters are meant to be warriors, just like moor-runners and tunnelers (but this group in particular is different enough to warrant a blank and whatnot), technically. They're all warriors, just listed differently, and in the case of tunnelers, they perform different tasks. Pretty sure we should just list them as warriors somewhere or add a note.

Screenshots as references
This used to be a taboo thing here, but times have changed. I've noticed that a lot of cites for the family trees do not have any accompanying screenshots to actually show what the error is. Is there a reason for this? Because I know I've asked a couple times already for screenshots to be included in the cites... It means that I, along with a couple others, aren't actually able to fact-check the website's family tree..so perhaps we could make this an official rule that way it gets done? I don't know about you, but it's pretty frustrating to me to see all of these family tree cites without any way to actually verify whether or not you guys are telling the truth or not being 100% accurate with what's being listed.

Not everyone's devices are capable or even compatible with the family tree, and we need to start compensating for that somewhere, even if that means using screenshots. We already do so for Kate's blog, so I'm not 100% sure why this isn't being done already.

I agree, even if you are able to access the family tree, its hard to find the exact spot you are looking for, since the family tree is so large and confusing. 22:48, June 4, 2019 (UTC)

Crowtail/Crowclaw
Is there a reason we have a page for Crowtail and for Crowclaw? 'Crowclaw' appeared in the scene in Code of the Clans that takes place around the same time as Yellowfang's Secret.. there is no cat called Crowtail in YS, so wouldn't it be safe to merge the articles together, since Crowtail appears to be the correct name for this cat, not Crowclaw? It makes no sense to have two separate articles, especially when Crowclaw doesn't even really exist outside of that one mention...and we can very clearly rule this as a mistake due to the character list in YS.

I concur with this. The same can be done with Whitewhisker and Hutch since the editors very clearly gave the same cat a different name. 21:03, June 9, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, logic wins

Concur with above. 21:07, June 9, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, logic is the key in life. Crowclaw is Crowtail, Whitewhisker is Shortwhisker/Hutch. It's increasingly obvious they are the same cat. I am thinking about Brightsky/Nightsky as well, they have the same gender, same description. If logic makes sense here too, Nightsky is actually Brightsky, despite Nightsky being listed in the allegiances in Tallstar's Revenge. However, I may be wrong. 21:09, June 9, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with everything above^^ The names probably just got mistaken while writing. I think it's safe to say they can be merged. 01:46, June 10, 2019 (UTC)

Minor character Pages Rules
I am getting very confused on what's going on the minor character pages. I'm being told of new rules that have not been discussed or mentioned on the talk pages? I'm also being told contradicting statements on what these rules actually are.

So I think it's best we get together and discuss what all the rules of the MC pages are, now that we have been really working on them. I would really appreciate if we all give our opinion on this, cause right now it's just a few of us editing the pages.

These are the current rules listed on the talk page/s:
 * Only very minor characters with unspecified names are added to this page. If you think a character should have a page of their own, please bring it up on PC's talk page.
 * The Characters are to be named as close as to they are named in the books as possible.
 * A Character is to be put under the appropriate book. If the minor character appears or is mentioned in separate books, put them under the arc they appear in, the book they appear in the most or bring it up on PC's talk page.
 * Each character is allowed one quote using the main quote template, only if an appropriate quote can be found.

(Note: we'll have to edit the wording of the 3rd rule now they are on separate pages)

These are I guess 'ghost rules' that I've come across/been disputed that we should officially add to the rules (please let me know if I miss any or got it completely wrong!):


 * If it is obvious who the cat actually is, such as having the exact same description and position as a known character, they are considered that character.
 * Characters must have some sort of significance. This can be having kin, a speaking role, or performing an action. They cannot hang around in the background.
 * For manga cats, this means they are spoken about and not just make an appearance (I think is the general rule??)

Thanks for reading that wall of text! I would really appreciate if we can all discuss this. Right now it's becoming really difficult and frustration for me to edit the minor characters pages, because I have no idea what's allowed, what's not allowed and I'm kinda getting scared of being yelled at. I know I've already annoyed some people with some characters I've added I admit looking at them now it's was pretty stupid ><. I'm very sorry about that.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:24, June 10, 2019 (UTC)