Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Nettlesplash, Sandypaw, etc
so i'm here to bring up another topic, (yay) which is why exactly do nettlesplash and other such skyclan cats have kittypet images for? i'm aware they were taking food from a twoleg, but......they were still feral the entire time. they werent ever in a house (that i know of), never held for a time (graystripe, leafstar) and never renounced their loyalty to skyclan like...ever. its entirely possible for a cat to get twoleg food while still being feral; you can feed a stray cat for a time, but that doesnt make it a housecat immediately. that takes time and the skyclan cats were doing it for a reason i think? or they were just greedy. whichever, but basically im proposing we remove the kittypet affiliations, (and by extension the chararts, but thats not for here.) 15:08, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

No, they weren't taking it for a reason. They were willingly taking kittypet food instead of hunting for it themselves. They weren't staring, sick, or suffering. There wasn't a lack of prey, either. They were being sneaky and tbh due to their actions, were acting like kittypets by taking the food willingly without another motive behind it.

Yes, but they didn't live with Twolegs, and I think that's what is defined as a kittypet. The definition of kittypet is:

"A kittypet is the Clan cats' word for housecats, that Twolegs keep and care for."

The twolegs didnn't keep those guys. They just went for food, and they didn't live with htem. 18:19, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

But they also went more than once. If they'd gone once, then I would agree, but the fact that they went back, hid it from their Clanmates, and had plans to go back again had they not been caught by Leafstar and the others kinda makes me think they'd have just kept on doing it. Willingly taking food multiple times should count for something.

nah, theyre just ebing greedy. and sure they went back multiple times, but did we ever see any intention that they would have become kittypets, no. like ive said feeding stray cats doesnt make them housecats. 18:30, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

Tbh I never understood why their images were there, and I agree with Skt - being greedy for pet food =/= kittypet 21:56, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

I'm on the fence with this one. They kinda became kittypets but kinda didn't... 00:17, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

Tbh they weren't kitty pets they just took food so 04:27, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

You guys also need to remember that some of these choices were made long before you even joined. The only ones around now who were around back then are people like me, Icy, Splook, David, and Roo. We had a discussion or something along those lines, so it's not like it was randomly added. Clan standard for a kittypet is not the same as PCA and PC's standard. Context implied they were acting as kittypets, by taking food willingly from a Twoleg and going back multiple times.

if they get it because they were 'acting' like kittypts ( i still dont agree) then why doesnt every cat whos ever pretended to be a rank theyre not get that image? it wouldnt matter their intent then, because if a different clan cat saw them then theyd think they were a kittypet or whatever. but moving on, they didnt leave the clan. thats my point. they didnt leave, they were still loyal, they werent kittypets. its just them being greedy, and it happens? it doesnt make them a sudden kittypet. calling them one is false, they ever even went in a house, werent even taken. SHRUG 10:51, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

you also might as well add hollowflight and whoever else it was to have kittypet images as well then, since they got kittypet food in MO. :/ 10:56, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

Gotta agree with Trolly here. 16:56, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

ehhh I'm indifferent about this one. If they strictly came to the Twolegs for food only, then is that really being a kittypet, or just a mooch? If they just went for food, and food alone, that doesn't spell kittypet to me. That sounds more like "ehh I don't wanna hunt my own food so I'm gonna eat some kittypet food". On the other hand, I see where Cloudy is coming from. PC and PCA's standards are different from personal opinions and/or book description. If the project standard for a kittypet is "a cat who strayed from the loyalty of their birth Clan into a relationship with a Twoleg feeder or caretaker", then they were technically a kittypet. 22:39 Thu Oct 8

If that's the definition of a kittypet, then Nettlesplash and etc fits. 20:42, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Anymore comments? 00:52, October 28, 2015 (UTC)

No, the "kittypet" definition is what was listed before: cats who are kept and cared for by Twolegs. True, Nettlesplash and the others were cared for, but they weren't kept. They are still not kittypets. 01:13, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

What's our definition of kittypets? That's probably the real issue. 02:15, November 10, 2015 (UTC)

Well in Secrets of the Clans the definition if "A domesticated pet cat". And on the kittypet article it's a house cat that Twolegs keep and care for. The SkyClan cats weren't kept by twolegs. So I still disagree. 20:29, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

if its saying that in the book then its really canon and the images should be removed? none of these cats are owned. 20:42, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

have we reached a conclusion? 02:50, November 17, 2015 (UTC)

If that's our definition than they are not kittypets. Simple as that. 02:15, November 28, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, so we should change it? 17:03, December 1, 2015 (UTC)

I guess this discussion is more about what's our definition of a kittypet than anything else. 03:07, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Names Again
Hey I'm back. So in Mothflight's Vision, the names don't combine. For example, Lightning Tail doesn't become Lightningtail and Cloud Spots doesn't become Cloudspots. Can we change these articles now? I mean, sure, you could wait for a novella to explain this, but you should probably get confirmation we'll have one, or that their names /will/ change. hinthint i'm asking for one of you to ask kate hinthint But yes. Should we change the names or not? 23:00, November 3, 2015 (UTC)

Can I get some comment on this? 01:12, November 9, 2015 (UTC)

i think theyre fine to leave as is, its very possible they do combine their names later on. (not that cats know the alphabet or anything.) 18:04, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

We have evidence it does eventually combine so unless we have something that says otherwise, leave it. 21:50, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

Yes but they are known throughout the entire series as their separate names, and we only get confirmation that they're combined in at least one field guide where it is known to have lots of mistakes. I know that sounds like a really weak argument, but eh. 09:31, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'd be okay with renaming Lightningtail, Cloudspots, Pebbleheart, and Dapplepelt, if only for the sole fact that we have many more instances of them being called Cloud Spots, Pebble Heart, and Dappled Pelt, instead of the names we were given in Secrets of the Clans. I wouldn't be okay for renaming Mothflight, however, as she's also seen as Mothflight in Tallstar's Revenge, and that's a much more recent book. While Secrets of the Clans might be more recent in the timeline, we also should probably go with what's the most familiar; ie; Shadow being renamed to Tall Shadow, Graywing being renamed to Gray Wing, ect.

At the same time, asking Kate what happens with these names would also be appropriate, if only for the sole reason that we could use it for oranization and clarification...since it really isn't made clear enough if they ever do change their names.

Why would we rename Tall Shadow? She changed her name to Shadowstar in MFV. 16:19, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

have we reached a conclusion? 02:50, November 17, 2015 (UTC)

Give other people a chance to comment- it's only been a few days. And idk if I told you, but I was using Tall Shadow as an example. Honestly, I'm still unclear as to exactly which pages you think we should move.

Lightningtail, Cloudspots, Pebbleheart, Owleyes, Dapplepelt, Cloudspots 12:27, November 20, 2015 (UTC)

Well, we wouldn't re-name Owleyes/Owlstar because there was never any definite confirmation he and Owl Eyes were the same cat, right? 01:30, November 23, 2015 (UTC)

No, I still think Owleyes should be Owl Eyes ... 05:10, November 25, 2015 (UTC)

But Owlstar/Owleyes and Owl Eyes were never confirmed as the same cat. So I'm not really seeing why we would re-name Owleyes when we have no proof he was ever called Owl Eyes. 22:34, November 26, 2015 (UTC)

There's no cite whatsoever linking Owl Eyes (Turtle Tail's kit) and Owlstar (ThunderClan's second leader), so as far as that goes, the pages will need to stay as they are. As for the other pages, I'm not sure we should rename them at all- we have at least one cite that says their names were merged... at least with Gray Wing, the cite was considered invalid or flat out wrong, I think? We still don't know what happened and when/if they merged their names.

I still think asking Kate if they actually did merge their names is appropriate, or if this was an error and something forgotten about when Dawn of the Clans was being written. Given the controversy surrounding the canonicity of Secrets of the Clans, just moving the pages without consulting someone (like Kate, since she wrote Moth Flight's Vision and half of Dawn of the Clans..) wouldn't be in our best interests, imo. The field guide is still very much canon, so we shouldn't disregard it quite yet. I know that isn't what I said up there^, but I've done a bit more thinking since then and decided that I, personally, think we should get an answer from someone who wrote the books. (and this doesn't mean ask Vicky; she did not write Dawn of the Clans.)

I still think we should ask Kate. Their names have only been mentioned as merged once, and throughout the entire series they're descrbied with separated names. 17:02, December 1, 2015 (UTC)

I have asked Kate and she isn't responding. Probably on her Christmas holidays or something. I think we are quick to start doubting, I mean before Moth Flight's Vision at least Shadowstar's description was changed to Shadow or Shadowstar or Tall Shadow. We have evidence they had a name change, so it should be left until something contradicts it, then we can discuss it. 03:07, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Snookthorn
Getting short and simple to the point. He never changed his name back to Snooky when he became a kittypet. His name should still be Snookthorn, and not Snooky. Should we change this? 09:30, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

He kinda did, considering he left the Clan. 20:54, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

Yes but there's no proof he didnt' change his name back. 20:55, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

I think we should rename the page as Snookthorn, and have his kittypet after name be Unknown or something like that 21:11, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

Winder's idea seems like a good one to me. I'd be in support of that. 04:23 Sat Nov 21

Not to nag, but has the decision for this been made? (I think his page should be renamed Snookthorn) 15:58, November 28, 2015 (UTC)

Like what i meant above was like...Kittypet: Snooky, Unknown as his secondary name should not be known as we never hear anything else of him after 19:34, November 28, 2015 (UTC)

Yep, I understood what you meant, and I agree that it sounds like the best idea :) I just brought it up because no one had commented on this for like a week, and I was wondering if people might have forgotten about it or something. 20:04, November 28, 2015 (UTC)

So have we come to a conclusion on this? 17:00, December 1, 2015 (UTC)

Erm, I hate to pester about this and I don't mean to sound rude or impatient, but will he be renamed or not? (It feels like this topic was sort of forgotten) 02:44, December 11, 2015 (UTC)

I'm just waiting if people want to say their opinion but since enough time has past, the page will be renamed. 03:07, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Tutorial Page
I think we need a tutorial page, or at least something along those lines for new members. It's really annoying how many things and that are added to the page and that and a cite isn't added because the user just doesn't know how to add it. Their has been cases where the user has found a proper and official fact or family member but it's removed because they do not know how to make cites. It would be good to have a tutorial for other things too, like headers, how best to write an article, coding examples, etc. 06:06, November 20, 2015 (UTC)

I'm in complete support of this. It'd lead to a lot less frustration for new users and experienced ones alike. We'd end up with a lot of less arguments over what information is added and cited, how to format pages, etc..

I'd love to offer a hand with the coding side of pages (how to cite especially). Coding is right down my alley. 04:22 Sat Nov 21

Yep, a tutorial page sounds like a good idea. We have one for PB so might as well have one for PC. 05:09, November 25, 2015 (UTC)

Anymore comments? 04:20, December 8, 2015 (UTC)

Alright I'll add a tutorial. I've already started on it but please go over and fix my mistakes! >< It will be on two separate pages. One for making a character's page and another for other stuff, like cites, categories and disambiguation pages. 21:42, December 18, 2015 (UTC)

Two topics from Warrior's Refuge
1. It's never exactly confirmed that Splash, Moss and her kits, and Husker became kittypets. It is highly suggested that they became kittypets, but it never directly says it: the Twolegs are petting the barn cats and Graystripe thinks, "I'm pretty sure I know what I'm looking at here. I'm looking at the barn cats' future. And it's a good one." (this is also the cite on their pages for why they're kittypets)...

2. Husker and Moss's kits (Pad, Little Mew, Birdy, Raindrop) genders aren't ever mentioned. However, in all of the mangas (i think) the females have eye lashes and the males don't. In Warrior's Refuge, Birdy and Raindrop have eyelashes, while Pad and Little Mew don't. Can the genders be assumed?

04:19, November 26, 2015 (UTC)

For number 2: But we don't have the cites or anything about that, the narrator specifically saying their genders, and maybe the manga accidently didn't put in the eyelashes by accident. We don't have enough proof, but Maple, you're right. Maybe they are males and females, but I wish we had more proof to put that in :/ 21:09, November 26, 2015 (UTC)

Eyelashes are not indication of a gender. It doesn't matter what other cats are shown with- we do not use that as a valid citation, as at least one cat who was "shown with eyelashes" got a cite for being male. Also, Husker, Moss, and Splash were kittypets before becoming loners, so those cites would just need to be changed if it's deemed invalid. All three cats were living with Twolegs before the story began.

Okay, the second one makes sense, I strikethroughed it. For the first thing, I know that Husker, Splash, and Moss were all kittypets before being loners, but it says that their current affiliation is kittypet, their char arts are kittypet pictures, and because I guess the barn cats Splash and Moss aren't the only Splash and Moss in Warriors, they are named with the KP avreviation on the wiki. 23:13, November 26, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's obvious enough to say they become kittypets again, but then again Warriors wiki doesn't like assuming. 04:20, December 8, 2015 (UTC)

I agree that they probably became kittypets, but it's not really proven, and what Graystripe says doesn't exactly say that they become kittypets either (for all we know, the barn cats could still be living in the barn but be friendly with the twolegs), plus Warriors Wiki doesn't like assuming... maybe someone could like ask Kate? 23:12, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Tumblekit
tumblekit is called a tabby tom once in dawn, vs two times in twilight as a black she-kit. in my onion it should be changed, considering it's what we did for thistlepaw. 19:19, November 29, 2015 (UTC)

I wondering if it's an assumption the she-cat is Tumblekit. In Dawn Dawnflower has two kits (Tumblekit is one), but in Twilight she magically has Minnowkit, Pebblekit and a black she-kit. I think we cannot assume this is Tumblekit. They could have been older kits and became apprentices when the Clans settled and Dawnflower had more kits or something. 05:07, November 30, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think they're older kits, but I think you're right in it possibly not being tumblekit. she's never identified by name, only ever called a black she-kit. 11:35, November 30, 2015 (UTC)

Comments? 04:02, December 10, 2015 (UTC)

Hello? 06:59, December 20, 2015 (UTC)

Slate
Does this cite actually prove that Slate is in StarClan? It honestly seems more like a "what would happen if she joined StarClan" sort of thing (based on the wording with "would" and stuff) rather than a confirmation that this was did happen, that Slate died and now resided in StarClan, at least to me. I don't really know, it might be proof, I just wanted to bring it up. 01:04, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

I'm almost positive that there's another cite that confirms that one- I'll see if I can find it tomorrow. imo, it seems good enough for me, but it should have been discussed before removing it.

Yeah It's not really a confirmation. The cite for Dark Forest cats too, she says they would make cool Dark Forest cats. That does not say they are Dark Forest cats. I don't even think One Eye believes in Spirit-cats, so they're breaking their own rules of "cats outside of the Clans will not go to StarClan or the Dark Forest if they do not believe in StarClan." Or in this case, Spirit-cats. 04:14, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

Stealth, it doesn't matter. Kate gave a very clear "yes" to the Dark Forest comment, so we need to keep that.

I don't think that the Slate cite really proves that she is a StarClan cat either :/ It really was a 'what if' question (although the person who asked did say "do you think he would chose Turtle Tail over Slate once she joins StarClan with Gray wing?) But anyways, I personally don't think that it proves that Slate joined Starclan 23:17, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation Templates
ah since I'm tired I'm just gonna get straight to the point : okay so, this might seem nitpicky, but every single article that is disambiguation has a different ... outline than the rest. for example, one might have Firestar, an apprentice of ThunderClan?

or

Firestar, a ThunderClan apprentice who is the son of soandso who appears in the books and later becomes Firestar?

so sorry if this is nitpicky and annoying, but I do think it needs to be addressed. should we have a disambiguation template that we follow? or just keep them as they are? 14:40, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

It's not nitpicky? tbh I wouldn't mind a base template... but at the same time, I really don't think the family is necessary, unless it's the only identifier we have? It doesn't make a lick of sense (to me) to have the family members mentioned and it just takes up way too much space sometimes...

Just go with what identifies them best. 23:00, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

Comments? 01:34, December 15, 2015 (UTC)

Ages
I don't know if this is already being worked on, but the ages for many cats are incorrect. Dew Nose and Eagle Feather certainly are not 1.5 moons old, nor is Dust Muzzle 6 moons. Some cats, like Acorn Fur or Silver Stripe and her siblings don't have any age listed at all. Just thought I should bring it up 17:30, December 6, 2015 (UTC)

If you'll check the cites, you'll see that those are as of.. A Forest Divided and Path of Stars, I believe. And even then, I think it's more towards the beginning of the book. Since timespans in Warriors have a habit of being different every time, it's getting difficult to track just how long a book spans and how old characters are. I know that most of these ages are only approximate, and chances are that they're wrong to a point.

Bubbling Stream ~ Silver Nomination
So cute. Comments? 07:48, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

can you like combine some of the sentences? a lot of them are very short and it makes it harder to read. 18:12, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

Updated 21:46, December 9, 2015 (UTC)

As I said down on Blue Whisker's article, try and give some characterization to the article, and just don't make it exactly like Blue Whisker and Spider Paw's pages. Articles should not be a spitting image of each other- they should each have their own unique summary.

I'm not too sure, I mean I see nothing wrong with that. They are not that individual most of the time and are seen always at the same time. 03:07, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

The sentences are fine. 03:12, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if they're "not that individual". They are their own articles and should not basically be copy pasted from one another. As rude as it is, it seems like a very lazy way to get an article done. And no, Icy, they're not fine. There should be more variation and less of the simpler things, imo.

I think I'll wait for another opinion. 22:09, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Snowed Lightning here. The summaries don't sound individual, or even as if it's exactly talking about Blue Whisker rather than just Moth Flight's kits as a whole. (For example, the first sentence: "Moth Flight gives birth to Micah’s kits, Blue Whisker, Bubbling Stream, Spider Paw and Honey Pelt." is really something that was probably be written on Moth Flight's page, by reading that sentence one has no clue which character the summary is supposed to be one) 23:02, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Spider Paw ~ Silver Nomination
His sister next. Comments? 07:48, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

As I said down on Blue Whisker's article, try and give some characterization to the article, and just don't make it exactly like Blue Whisker and Bubbling Stream's pages. Articles should not be a spitting image of each other- they should each have their own unique summary.

The sentences are fine. 03:13, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

I disagree, the amount of sort sentences make it very boring to read, and a lot of them can be combined. 11:30, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Still working? 01:33, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

Nine lives box?
I just had this idea. Since the information for nine lives is at the bottom, how about we move it up so people will see it more often? It could become part of the character boxes for leaders, if that's possible. I don't know anything about box coding so I could be speaking nonsense. XD Still, I think it'll be a great idea.

That's honestly not necessary. If people want to look for it, they can look for it, it's there it's on their page. It's not like it's invisible. Even though it is hard to spot, no one will over look it if they're specifically looking for that 21:42, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's good enough where it is. 04:20, December 8, 2015 (UTC)

I actually disagree, and I think it's a very good idea to try and implement. If the nine lives are so important to the Warriors series (it's what defines a leader, and cats don't always accept their leader without nine lives), then it probably shouldn't just be tossed down on the bottom of the page like that. If possible, we can always add it in a drop-down or something like that on the character template. Seriously, it's a vital part of a leader's time in their Clan, and should be treated with a bit more importance.

I agree that it's fine already and there's no need to change it. 03:12, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Blue Whisker ~ Silver Nomination
Comments?

Oh sheesh I was working on her. Oh well. I'll do Honey Pelt. Can you detail the history a bit more? I have a version very similar to Bubbling Stream's and Spider Paw's, I don't mind leaving it to you if you want. 02:06, December 8, 2015 (UTC)

Never mind. I just wrote her history a while ago so I thought I'd nominate her as well. I'll leave this to you.

Oh thankyou! :) I'll take over. 03:32, December 8, 2015 (UTC)

Updated 03:58, December 8, 2015 (UTC)

Same as before- there are a lot of simple and short sentences. Especially in the first paragraph, and I actually started to lose focus a bit. Is there any way to give a bit more detail and variation to the article? Also, is it necessary to give Spider paw, Bubbling Stream, and Blue Whisker almost the same summary? Honestly, they are each their own character and their articles should not be almost similar like that. Personalize the article for each character.

The sentences are fine. 03:13, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

As I said before, no, it's not fine. They are very short and very easy to lose focus on. I've been seeing this a lot with newer articles, and if I can nip it now, then perhaps we can stop this. We are an encyclopedia, so we should have articles that are written as such.

Still working stealth? 01:32, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

Benny
this occured to me when I altered benny's alt description, but shouldn't his tabby description be his actual one? he was described with it first, and was only ever called black and white once after this. 23:23, December 13, 2015 (UTC)

Dark black and white tabby? That doesn't make sense to me... 23:28, December 13, 2015 (UTC)

No, Stealth, we're not combing the references. The black-and-white thing is probably a mistake. If he's called a tabby more, then change it. When I cited the description, I went with the one I found first, which was the black-and-white one...and then I found the tabby thing afterwards, so I think this might be my mistake.

Oh sorry, didn't read it right XD Yeah if it is mentioned more he is a dark tabby, then go with that. I'd say though to double check and make sure he is only called black-and-white once. I'm familiar with when he is mentioned since I wrote his history, so I'll go check when I can. 00:57, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

I just checked BS and I only see him mentioned as a dark tabby only once, while black-and-white shows up at least 3-4 times. I think he's black-and-white. 01:32, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

thats all in like one or two paragraphs though, a cat can easily be referred to as one colour in one chapter and then be the correct in the next (brackenfur probably), but idk. 01:35, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

I believe he should be a black tabby and white, to be honest. Tabby seems to be a partial of black and white.  ❄ Blossomstream White Christmas  06:52, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

no, it shouldn't be. you can't really just mash two unrelated descriptions together. had he been called a black tabby, then it would be a partial. (probably) 11:29, December 14, 2015 (UTC)