Warriors Wiki talk:Charart/Archive 93

Closing the Tweak page and Nomination pages- atleast temporarily.
A few of us were discussing this in chat, and it could be really beneficial to close down the tweak/nomination pages for awhile, once the current tweaks and nominations are out of the way. The project is going overboard with this whole realism thing- to the point where its making members leave. This pickyness is getting out of control- I honestly believe closing down these pages for awhile will give everyone a chance to chill out and realize that the goal of the project isnt to be hyper-realistic, or to nominate images for redos just to have a cat to work on. We'll have a bunch of new cats to work on in September, so this could help ease the tension between users. 00:26, August 12, 2015 (UTC)

No complaints from me, and I was one of the ones supporting it. The only tweaks that should probably be done are torn ears, or additions to descriptions due to author comments, cites in books, ect. Aka, something that's actually important.

I was the one who brought this up, so I'm fine with it. 00:38, August 12, 2015 (UTC)

PCA is usually always a bundle of drama. It comes with the territory. If we closed certain aspects of the wiki every time opinions conflict, we wouldn't have an improving wiki. 00:46, August 12, 2015 (UTC)

It honestly doesn't matter to me, but I just wanna point out that this has been an 'issue' for 3 years. There have been countless discussions and arguments about realism and stuff of that nature and nothing has changed. I don't really think you can do anything to stop stuff like this. Do I think people go overboard? Yes, and I have been thinking that since 2012. It's just really hard to tell people to not redo this, and not tweak that, because when it comes down to it: it's a vote. Some people will say it's fine, while others will agree. I am personally beyond pleased with all the art on this website. Will people find flaws in them? Of course. Will a lot of them be redone in the near future? Obviously, and there's nothing you can really say or do to prevent that from happening. "Realism" has been an ongoing issue, and you either realize that it's going on, or you don't.

So, yeah, I do believe some images are redone for trivial matters. Close the tweak page if necessary, but all I'm saying is that temporarily closing tweaks will only prevent the redoing of more images and arguments until it starts back up again. 01:11 Wed Aug 12

I would support this, because some of the nominations really seems to be people being picky and wanting art to do. It's causing lots of arguments and images are being tweaked and redone unnecessarily. We should still have a way to tweak images for really important things (basically new information about a character's description) but I think that closing these pages at least temporarily could do the project some good. 01:55, August 12, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Splook. I don't support or not support closing the tweak nominations, since this problem has been here for ages before I even joined this project. 02:59, August 12, 2015 (UTC)

I'm 100% in support of this. I'm getting sick and tired of seeing nominations for things that really do not need to be tweaked. Honestly bringing back the idea of tweak week isn't seeming like such a bad thought anymore. 06:21 Wed Aug 12

Okay, I take my comment back. There is way too much drama on the tweak nominations page and I now fully support closing them down since people are leaving because of it. 13:00, August 12, 2015 (UTC)

Everyone's getting listless and bored due to the lack of new images to make. I say close it down until at least Goosefeather's Curse comes out and generates more art to make. 21:53, August 12, 2015 (UTC)

eh, i guess we can close it. do what it takes. 01:35 Thu Aug 13

Idk, I think this would set a careless precedent. It's like: when the going get's tough, let's just avoid it. While it is a redundant situation, we're still a project. Honestly, I think we can get through it without bowing out. 02:41, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Was I the one who pushes everyone pass their breaking lines? If I was, I apologize. I support closing the tweak page and nominations page for a little bit, I won't even argue if it's gone forever. Myself was hurt very very badly by this thing, and I wanted to leave PCA. It's true, Winterflurry knows that. It's really time for it to stop.

atelda's right. closing PCA is a temporary solution to a problem that will keep on poking up. best we can do is keep moving forward. going back to my original opinion statement, lol  20:34 Thu Aug 13

Let's all calm down and have a read
Seriously, I have had enough.

Everyone, calm down. Like seriously, this is a project, we don't need members screaming at each other and starting fights. There has even been a "f**k you all" appearing up. Jesus.

Everyone, knock it off. This is driving me to the breaking point. Stop the drama, now, we don't need members screaming at each other and causing others to become hurt. Our mission here is to make art, THAT'S IT. this drama is totally pointless and heading nowhere, no need to hurt people's feelings just because of a couple of pixels.

Tensions are too high and are we serious? Whole lot of hurt and drama over pixel images? Everyone, calm down. Younger warriors, no need to creep around and agree hastily to all the senior/ancient members here as if you will get killed, older members, stop screaming at each other. The drama NEEDS TO STOP.

PCA is not a spot for endless fights and harangues, I have had enough with all the diatribe members are hurling at each other over pixel images. Seriously, stop it. PCA used to be a calm, relaxing place and seriously, how the heck have we gotten into a state like this?

Stop the drama, now, we are meant to be trying to have peace here. I understand that this is a formal project that has no room for silliness and disobedience, but with all these people leaving and feeling hurt, I'm on the brink of leaving too. I completely understand why these people have considered/have done so. Seriously, this is a project where people are meant to be collaborating peacefully, is all of this screaming and creeping around even worth it?

PCA, shape up. Like seriously, and right now. I don't even know how we fell to a point this bad. We all just need to calm down and have a read, this is all absolutely necessary and if tensions don't drop soon I will be leaving this project. (although some would be happy to see me gone) I will not be in a project that has pointless stress and drama going on within it. 09:14, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, I personally think the project should be closed down as a whole for a bit. Yeah, some members will leave, bit itll get everyone to calm the hell down. As members of the project, we should be working together- not hurling insults and ill words at each other. 09:30, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think closing the project is necessary unless the tensions don't stop sooner or later. And yes, i do agree that the project needs to calm down. It really doesn't have to be like this 09:38, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

[snorts]. Asking for the drama in PCA to stop is like asking for it to stop raining in winter. It won't work. A big argument like this happens every few months, and there's no stopping the pattern. Try as we might, it's unavoidable because too many people are possessive and competitive over images.

The only way this shit's gonna die down is if certain users chill out about images getting redone and what alts need to be made. And no, I'm not centring on David's departure because that'll cause even more fighting over 'who caused it' and other bullshit.

Also...older users screaming at each other? I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you define 'older' as users like Jayce, Icy, and myself, who were around before PCA's closure, then I want to know where you're getting the 'screaming' from. We aren't arguing; the only arguing I can see is other users complaining over images not being redone despite them being "unrealistic". Which is a bad argument for redoing images anyway. Warriors isn't realistic in the slightest, from the pelt patterns, to talking cats, to the fact that nearly every cat is shown as a HeteroStraight™. And also define 'creeping around' because I have literally no idea what you mean.

PCA's never been calm or relaxing. Unfortunately, there's too much desperation for art and too many members not doing work outside the art and too many images getting nominated for stupid reasons, among other things. And this isn't going to stop with a simple cry like this. It's going to keep going and it won't stop here, because a couple months later, it'll be back again. I wouldn't be totally against another short closure of PCA to make the crap stop again, but what's the bet that, again, we'll have another huge bout of inactivity with so many leaving because there's no more art to do. 09:40 Thu Aug 13

okay i know this will never stop completely, but this is the worse I have ever seen to have gotten to the project, PCA should have the ability to calm down and s**t happening recently is just too much, sure PCA has never been too peaceful but surely things can get better than this?

I post this, because things are peaking out of the breaking point. Yes this won't stop things altogether but things need to calm down now. This is getting too much for many members, like me and a couple of others. 09:46, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's screaming at each other.... or at least I'm not. Not agreeing isn't screaming; it's just not agreeing on something...and it can usually be settled with a nice, calm, and level discussion. Sometimes it can't, though. And honestly, I'm not too keen on closing PCA as a whole; it wouldn't be fair at all to any of our leads, especially if we reset like we did last time. How would you feel if you had just gotten promoted, only to have that stripped from you because people can't get along? I know it wouldn't be fair to Jayie, myself, and all of the newly appointed leads. After all, Jayie and I were just promoted to deputy/leader, and we've barely gotten a chance to do anything. That would make it seem like our leadership was bad, and I'd like to think we're doing an okay job so far.

The drama isn't going to ever end, no matter how much of a massive wall on the talk page you leave. This is just how PCA is, and always has been- there are arguments over pixels, and there have been for as long as I can remember. This is what happens when you put dozens of artists with different abilities, skillsets, and viewpoints in the same area and expect them to adhere to the same sets of rulings that not all agree with. I know personally, I don't agree with hyper-realism and I think we need to tone it down a lot. The project was much more entertaining (in a good way!!) when we could have fun with out designs and not always be told "the stripes aren't realistic and the shading has no source". And don't counter with "but we should be as accurate as we can be with our art", because that was never the point of the project.

The point of PCA was to make art for the series and all characters that we can. It is not to outdo one another, to force realism on others (who get more fun out of making unrealistic designs), or to nominate all images that we can because of minor things that...in the grand scheme of this project, don't mean a dang thing compared to the true goal of this project. It shouldn't have to come to a full-scale argument where one of our senior-most members feels he has to leave (ily David sorry for using you as an example ;-;) in order to escape the madness. Users should not feel forced to nominate images due to peer pressure because they're afraid of their images being nominated by someone else for not being "their level of perfect".

And those same users should also never be afraid to ask for advice if they need it. The elder users (I'm talking people like Icy, Splook, David, Berry, and myself, who have been here many years) are more than willing to talk to you, especially if there's a concern to be brought up. It should not have to come to multiple walls on PCA's talk pages, people leaving, and words being tossed back and forth like a volleyball.

tldr; we're not closing PCA and we all need to learn to get along. (note, if you come along and blame the leads, your argument is invalid, as this is a problem that all users in the project are involved in)

I may not have been here as long as some of the older users, like Skye, Icy, Splook, Berry, Skt, etc, but I've been here since 2011/2012 and I think that's long enough for me to be able to say this. PCA has always been drama central of the wiki, and it will always be that way. There really can't be much drama in writing articles - but images? That's a different ball game. A few years ago, the drama revolved around something different entirely, but it was still there. However, even though it was present, no one made it as big as it is now, and honestly, we've gone way too damn far.

When I was an apprentice, unrealistic styles were kinda the norm. I don't really remember when we outlawed triangle tabbies, but I do remember people not being nearly as picky and as strict with images as they are right now. Not everyone can make extremely realistic or even somewhat realistic images. Not everyone can have the smoothest shading, the best stripes, etc. People do their best, and they make images that they're proud of. That's not saying that any image should be approved because the artist tried their best, it's saying that if the pattern is unrealistic, or the shading isn't as smooth as it can be, big deal. We can't expect everyone to be a brilliant artist - some of us just want to make images for the honor of having them on character pages, which everyone, even the authors will see.

I'm pretty sure the drama is coming from people not being able to settle for the best of some of the users - yeah, everything can be improved, yeah anything can be made better, but if someone is trying their hardest, well...that used to be enough. I don't think it is anymore. 11:55, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

I reread my wall of text... I think I made it sound like I needed the drama to stop altogether. That wasn't my point- sorry about that, I am just thinking that right now, how things are going, the drama is too much, I didn't mean that it should be stopped altogether, sorry for the unclear explanation.

Anyway, I don't support closing PCA. Like Skye said, it is unfair for the leads to have to be renominated and all that over again. This over-peaked drama can be cooled down- we don't need a closure.

Also, I understand none of this is the leads' fault, idk I just feel like... We are spinning out of control, for the lack of a better phase?

now that I calmed down a bit and my head is clear, I hope this cleared up some misunderstanding. Sorry about that, I've been going through a lot lately and sometimes that drives me off the edge. 12:07, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

"No we're fine. PCA is fine. Drama is fine. All we do is nominate for votes? If a decision is wrong, disagree with it. We've done nothing wrong. We were just being fair. The majority of the project decides." That's not the point imo. This sounds selfish, I know, but would anyone rather have a user /leave/ or worse, quit internet forever just because the rest of the project disagree with them slightly? I've always thought, even if the majority agrees with something, they need to care if someone is extremely hurt about it. Okay I know it's getting off topic. I hope we're not closing PCA, as Jayce mentioned - it's not easy to get to this point. It's very hard to get nominated and for the nomination to pass. We've already gone this far, so what I'm saying is, let's not get further.

I saw that "screaming at each other" thing, and I'm sorry if old members see this differently. Sometimes it does feel like I'm being yelled at. So to avoid being shot by arrows of words, newer members have to "creep around" and not dare to day a thing.

Now, what if someone loves a image very much, when it's not theirs, but it gets nominated and the OA isn't here anymore? What are they going to do? They don't get a say because "liking a image personally" isn't a valid reason for anything, but it could easily drive them a little bit crazy(like not being able to sleep at all that night). Crying silently in their beds. A couple weeks later another set of images of their favorite character gets nominated for redo again, and they just can't stand it happening anymore. What are they going to do now? Leave. It's the only option. Of course I understand if senior members don't feel this way, but there /are/ members thinking this way.

I don't really care about drama, or arguments, we all can speak out and type. But the countless feelings getting hurt behind all these walls of text isn't something you can prevent. Stopping people from saying what they want to isn't going to help at all, just saying. Sometimes it doesn't all go with logic. We have minds, afterall. We're not figures you see in physics class, we don't always live as how "it's supposed to be". Should try to understand some "unreasonable reasons"?

I definitely can understand where the idea of screaming or berating comes from (applying to the wiki as a whole too). I'm a horrible person and that definitely can come out when I'm adding my input. While it may simply read as a general message to me, it can come off totally different to others. We communicate in blocks of text that take on different tones to each other so it's easy to "misinterpret". Honestly, maybe we ought to just be nicer to each other while also not taking everything so personally. 19:07, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, Burntclaw. You really need to read over stuff like this before you post it - or if you're upset, probably don't post this at all. Whatr you said seemed really offensive and it probably came off as utterly rude to some people. As I stated above, telling people the same thing over and over won't change their mindset. Atelda is right when we shouldn't take everything so personally but still... What you said seemed really horrible. And as I said, the same thing being said over and over won't do anything unless action is taken, and even then, action probably won't be taken. PCA being closed probably seems like...idk, but if new leads /were/ to be re-elected, maybe that's a good thing because some leads were involved in this ... I don't know. I am /not/ pointing fingers so don't tell me I am. 19:26, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Also just saying, I'm not in support of closing the project. Just in case. I'm in support of shutting down the tweak page for a little bit, but not the project. 20:26, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Closing the project will do nothing. It's natural human nature to start fights with things they don't agree with. Heads up, this project hasn't been calm or relaxing since 2010. There have been plenty of disputes and disagreements similar to this one in the past years. The best thing to do is to just move on and continue working as normal. Things will settle out, the people who left might come back, and PCA will return to normal. 20:32 Thu Aug 13

Icy, I already said up there that I was upset when I typed this, therefore I apologize if I come off as rude, or offensive. Again, I decided to post this because things are way too bad, just too much.

And again I repeat that closing the project will not help anyone, and the drama will continue on as before. 07:00, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

I'm just saying that Burntclaw, the next time you get upset and post something like this, I think you should think carefully before you press "publish". 17:06, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

Okay. What's the point of this discussion if it means for us to calm down, but itself is getting all dramatic and repetitive over the same points people are trying to make? Now this is to everyone: We really shouldn't struggle over things that has already gotten an apology for it? Btw Icy, if someone's upset how would they be able to think carefully? imo I think this was already the nicest she was able to be at that time.

This was a trainwreck, so it's being archived.

PCA Solution?
I don't want to get involved here, but I had an idea. Maybe only for tweak nominations, only the leader, deputy, and sr. warriors can do it? This way, there'll be less tweaks and they'll be done by people who don't want to start drama. Songheart (talk) 10:47, August 13, 2015 (UTC)Songheart

I don't think that's really going to work. The thing is, we can't just isolate the drama to one part of the project. The problems are not all the warriors' fault, nor are they all the leads' fault, and the blame should be shared between both groups for the problems on the Tweak Nominations page. I think we should just close them completely, tbh. 12:26, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Im going to hace to agree with Ice. No matter how fun the PCA or the tweak page is, I feel as if it has come out of hand. Esspecially with the Alts and tweaking and stuff 20:23, August 13, 2015 (UTC)