Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Family Tree Unnamed Parents
Okay I'm not sure if it's just one user or something, but someone keeps changing unnamed parents from male and female to both unknown genders. A discussion about it should have been brought up first. So for now, all changes should be reverted until this discussion is finished.

Anyways, why does their genders have to be not known? It's physically impossible to have two mothers or two fathers (the family trees display genetic relations, not fosters) I'm not anti anything, it's just that the family trees show genetic relations. And yes I'm aware of the fact there is transgenders, but really without medical intervention (by Twolegs, nonetheless) it's physically impossible for cats to switch genders. They are not a species that do this.

So, the discussion is should unnamed/unknown parents be listed as male and female, or both unnamed?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:46, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

these cats aren't just cats, they're essentially little furry humans (wasn't that said by an author too or am I just imagining things). gender isn't tied to yr parts, anyway. say there was an actual trans cat in the series (I wish...) wouldn't it be pretty crappy to call them male despite what they're presenting as. all in all I don't see how listing them as grey boxes is really that much of an issue, and in any case we could at least remove the unmentioned, not referenced at all parents (say fallowsong and sweetbriar's parents) to avoid at least some of this.

and I don't think it's purely genetical anyway? when was that even decided? some of those trees do indeed show foster kits. or at least they used to, anyway. (i think i remmeber brokenstar being on lizardstripes idk) 22:05, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

I say we remove uncited/non mentioned parents from the family templates, definitely.

Don't really have a set opinion on the other part. I do think it's reasonable to say every cat has a mother ('cause I mean, cats gotta get born somehow), but listing as a gray box anyway wouldn't be too much of an issue. I know that people can identify as something without physical alteration, so, one could switch genders without that still. though, I really doubt it'll actually ever get confirmed into the series, because of harpercollins

Honestly, we already use an unspecified gender for character articles, so if you ask me, it's fine with me just keeping it how it was changed to. (which tbh I will revert any and all changes to he/she instead of they lmao) They've been said to be little, furry humans by the authors multiple times, so in all honesty, it's actually better and not an assumption to keep the gender as unknown. Also Stealth, do not revert them. They are perfectly fine as they are and don't contradict any cited information. =/

I just think it should have been discussed first before making sudden changes is all. But yes I do agree that removing those parents that are never actually mentioned in the books is good. It'll at the very least make family trees coding and tweaking a little easier.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  08:26, May 24, 2017 (UTC)

Comments?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:56, June 3, 2017 (UTC)

Okay we will keep them as gray boxes. What about removing unknown parents? The ones that are on trees just to complete them but are never mentioned in books? Like Flashnose's and Daisytoe's parents, or Sweetbriar's and Fallowsong's parents. Or unnamed mates? Like Flashnose's mate or Frostfur's mate.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:44, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think we can remove the totally unknown mates without it looking weird, unless someone wants to alter the entire tree ig. as for the parents, is it possible to use the 'missing generations' thing maybe like what was done for cloudstars descendants or something? 15:31, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, not too sure about that. I've done a couple of trees with most mates gone, and it doesn't look too bad. I can only suggest for like Flashnose's and Daisytoe's parents that it is a single gray Unknown instead of two Unknowns. But yeah, I do think yours is a good suggestion if the missing mates are too weird.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:08, June 14, 2017 (UTC)

if that could be done with every tree without it being too much of a hassle, I'd definitely go fo it. I'd be happy with the one grey unknown too. 04:37, June 14, 2017 (UTC)

Hm, maybe we could do something like what was on... was it Windstar's tree? There was an "unknown" box with a gap? Could that work as well? ...or is that the same thing here and the point of what you did went over my head again?

I don't understand what you mean. Maybe show an example?Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:00, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

Jayce?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:29, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:47, July 10, 2017 (UTC)

Honestly I have the same opinion as David.

Foster Family Tree
So I think someone mentioned above we used to display foster family relations on trees. I'm wondering if we want to try to do that again. I'm pondering the different options on doing this, but I do believe it is possible for every character with a foster relation. So, what does everyone think?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:11, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Would it be a whole different tree or will it be added on the orginal tree? 02:21, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

That's part of this discussion.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  02:41, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

It would be more reasonable to make to separate trees, since there's situations were there's only one foster parent and it would be a little weird to have a stray boxes (the ones with the names in it) floating around, if you get what I'm saying. 02:45, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

I'm alright with it, but it does need to have already been cited on their articles first. Like, Lilyheart is Violetpaw's foster mother when she came to ThunderClan initially, but Snowbush wasn't their foster father, since there's nothing stating that nor did we see it in the books.

I did test family trees of Thunderstar foster family. A separate tree does seem to be best. (especially since I cannot figure out how to do those special dotted line that Brokenstar once had on Runningnose's tree :/) It'll be good if we are doing separate foster trees to put the different trees under different subheadings, like " ====Genetic Tree==== " and " ====Foster Tree==== "<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:48, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  02:00, June 16, 2017 (UTC)

I like those. =O The only question I have is this: will it be indicated somewhere on the template's page itself that the lines on certain boxes represent a fostered connection, not a direct blood connection? Like with Thunderstar, Acorn Fur, and Lightning Tail, for example.

I really tried hard to find a line, but the family tree template only supports the solid and dashed lines we already use. I went through every key on my keyboard and there is only two dotted lines keys that we could use, but those aren't enough to make a basic tree. We could do the mate lines, but we can also try the Template Chart, which is literally almost the same except you swap out 'familytree' with 'chart'. There is also some changes when it comes to keys for lines, but these are really uncommon lines we use.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:59, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

What does everyone want to do? Do the normal family tree lines, or have those trees switch to chart template (which is practically the same as the family tree template) and use the dotted lines for foster links.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:32, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

I'm cool with using the chart template - I've used it before, and it's pretty easy to work with so why not :)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:58, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

I would agree that the charart template is easy to work with and should be used in this situation.

I really like this idea. However, I think if we’re going to use it and use the chart template to do the dashed lines for foster relations (which I support, for sure), I think we should put the foster relations on the same tree as the genetic relations and differentiate them with the solid vs. dashed lines. Most genetic families only have one or two foster relations in them, so the foster tree would just be the exact same tree with a very slight modification, which would be really repetitive and unnecessary imo. 17:52, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Character Ages
Y'know, this was a nice idea when it started, but I really think we should remove character ages from articles unless there is clear proof as to the passage of time. Let me use Cherryfall and Molewhisker as an example; their age cite is from The Fourth Apprentice, and that does not state their current age. I'm gonna be blunt, this series has very little in terms of consistent time passage, and I really think we should start removing all ages that cannot be 100% confirmed; such as a direct statement from Kate, Vicky, or within the series itself (such as someone saying "[name]kit is three moons old", or something like that. With each book, we experience more time, and these ages are also becoming outdated. I've removed some of the ones with expired cites (old books do not reveal anything other than them being born, and unless we have a solid confirmation [the timeline I guess can be used, but again, it's not totally 100% cited yet]), and I'm not even sure we should still have these.

And if you yell at me saying we're removing hard work, it's not like they can't be readded with a proper cite to back it up.

Not sure how much my opinion on this actually counts since I'm so inactive, buuuuut Jayce has a point. Half of these ages aren't accurate or aren't properly cited. I actually think it's impossible to find accurate ages for these characters...the series is way too inconsistent. Cats appear as full grown cats in one book and then in another book released later in the same time period, they're just being born. Even saying it's an approximation doesn't really excuse it imo; there's far too many conflicts. <span style="">12:56 Sun Jun 18

I agree with removing ages entirely for cats that have never had their age mentioned, but, if it has been stated, then I think it should be put as "[age]+ Moons" (eg. "Age: 48+ Moons) (unless it was stated as being 8 Moons once and now the cat is a warrior or something, then I think you should remove its age), because you can never be sure if time has passed since the stating of a character's age. Although, like Sootopolitan Berry, I have been inactive and, unlike Sootopolitan Berry, this is my first post on the Project Characters Talk Page (excluding my join request, of course!), so my opinion will, most likely, be unimportant. -- 16:32, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

I think that ages should be removed from characters who are still currently alive, as there's the passage of time still and all that. However, even if not direct proof, with a few double cites there are some ages that can be confirmed and so I think it might be smart to keep the ages of deceased characters on those pages until proven false.

I don't think they should be removed entirely. They should be revamped yes, but not removed. I've been working hard on the Timeline and most of the seasons are cited now. I made this suggestion earlier with Spookycat but I think maybe we can try an age template. Like, we tell the template a character was born at (referencing warriors timeline), Year=3, Season=1 (leafbare), Moon=3. It figures it out for us and for living cats, it compares to what time the series is currently at (Year=11, Season=2(newleaf), not sure about moon but I will definitely check if we do this) and we change what the 'current time' is when a new book in the series is released. For deceased characters, we tell what moon they died, like Year=3, Season=4(Leaf-fall), Moon=2. It's just a basic idea but it could work well. It's better than doing it ourselves, math can be so hard ><<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:07, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

there's a few kits and such that have the right ages (because they're dead) but more are wrong currently than right. those should be removed because they're incorrect, and any other wrong information would be removed immediately. people outside the wiki don't take much stock in the ages as it is because of how thye are right now. 22:11, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

I'm actually up for removing them from the still-living cats.. because the passage of time isn't always 100% clear in the books, and even context clues isn't always accurate. That's not saying your work isn't going unnoticed, Stealth. Trust me, I'm so happy with your progress on the timeline and I'm very impressed. It just doesn't seem right to have these ages shown on articles when many of them are incorrect. We remove all wrong information when we see it, so I don't see how this is much different...

Well, I think we should remove the ages from living cats for the time being (and perhaps some of the deceased characters too), since in a lot of cases it is false information. I think we could talk about re-adding them later if Stealth and the others finish up the timeline and get it properly cited. At that point, we could double cite the ages (to where they were born or their age was stated and the timeline page), and it would be easier to see if the ages were up to date referencing off the timeline. I understand if we decide to remove the ages completely because they're never going to be 100% accurate, but I think having the approximations is useful. 23:44, June 21, 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I don't like that the ages listed are not accurate either.

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:43, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

Well, I've looked further into the issue, and although I know a lot of people are for keeping the ages of the deceased characters, I want to question the practice of doing that as well. First off, many of the deceased characters were born during the Super Editions. But do we really know exactly how much time passed between them and the start of Into the Wild? The timeline (which, in that section, is not fully filled out or cited) shows that there's a little over two years between Bluestar giving up her kits and the start of ITW. But it fails to cite how it came to that conclusion – I know it wasn't from any evidence in BP itself, which only says that "many moons" or "countless seasons" have passed. I know it couldn't come from CP or TR either, which end well before ITW starts, and if you compare YS to BP the timeline doesn't really match up and shows ITW coming at least a year before it should.

Even with many characters whose lives don't span that time gap, it's questionable how legitimate their age cites are. For example, we often have to use logic to override direct cites in the book (case in point: how several books state that the Three were born in leaf-bare, when logically they would have been born in greenleaf). A lot of the other cites I've found are questionable at best, too. For example, Dustpelt's age cite links to page 15 of Into the Wild when Graystripe says that apprentices have to be at least six moons old. This does not show that Dustpelt was made an apprentice at six moons or that he just became an apprentice (he could have been one for several moons already). Even if the timeline of the series was consistent, it's very difficult to determine the exact moon a cat was born or their age was stated because the time terms used in the series are usually pretty vague. Often it just says a cat was born in "leaf-bare" (which could be any of the three moons) or people take "a few moons after leaf-fall" and decide it must mean the middle moon of leaf-bare. I know we put "approximately" before all the ages, but I don't think even that excuses people using things like the above to guess when the cats were born.

tldr; Because of the inconsistency of the series and the way time is represented, we're never going to get completely accurate ages and we're always going to have to resort to guessing and using "logic" to figure out ages. Since this is a wiki that likes to use solid factual evidence rather than guesswork and assumption to get its information, I think the best course of action would be to just remove the ages altogether. Sorry for writing this really long thing 17:33, July 9, 2017 (UTC)

Hi! I just joined this wiki, I used to be "outside" for a very long time and with my outside views I can tell you that the ages and the timeline we're EXTREMELY helpful and I loved them so much. Yes, I know much of it is inaccurate (like if your a geek like me and really look into it you find that Darkstripe was born to Tawnyspots, who was very sick at the end of BP, and Willowpelt, a new warrior. Since cats' gestation period is 2 months, according to the timeline, he was born at the earliest in Newleaf of 1YBF. He is 6 moons old at Leaf-fall, 3 moons before Firestar comes to the Forest. Some how in 3 moons he becomes a warrior AND trains Longtail ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). But there is a lot of info on it and I know outsiders really like it. Please consider this!!! Crestpaw123 (talk) 16:20, July 14, 2017 (UTC)

Hey so I just was bringing this up to Skye and I was going to make us a timeline to use as I re-read through each warriors book and also take notes of births, deaths, and description cites. So it'll take me a while but I'll get there! I'll probably link my sandbox when I start workin on it <span style="">02:49, 7/18/2017

That's very kind of you. Thankyou. Meanwhile, I've cited all books, events, births/deaths and etc on the Warriors Timeline. Unless someone still isn't sure, we can start using that now.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:08, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Even with the timelines, it's almost impossible to ensure that the ages are accurate. It's often only stated what season something happened in, not what exact moon, and if the information's not there in the books, we're just guessing at it. Passage of time often isn't fully worked out in the series, especially in time gaps (I'm pretty sure we don't know how long the SEs are set before Into the Wild). Also, it doesn't address the problem we have with living cats' ages becoming quickly outdated with new releases. 14:41, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you Ivy, but I also don't agree. Since that is why we put approx. in front of their ages. I think I vaguely remember that Su was working on a timeline as well and she had the stuff worked out very well, but after she was attacked her wikia was taken down and all was lost. I can try and ask her for it if she has like the vague stuff, but if she doesn't I won't bother her about it, since I'm working on my own and matching the cites within the pages. Stuff is usually off by like 1 or 2 moons anyway, since unless specifically stated when they were born and yadayada then we can't know for sure, but it's clear in context if you really stare at the sentence it is said long and hard enough.

Also, I have begun my timeline with The Sun Trail as the beginning book. I don't want to be called out on posting a link to my wikia here, but I wasn't sure if I could've posted it here or not, so I'll just post the link here: http://warriors-shattered.wikia.com/wiki/User:Lyokion/Sandbox I'll remove the link if it's not allowed. <span style="">00:42, 7/20/2017

August FA
Time is flying. So there are a few on the FA list, and I am assuming we can go for one of those, except both need heavy editing. I actually think Darktail would be good for August, as the article is very detailed and well written. 18:50, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Darktail, but it appears that his TAS section isn't done yet, so that needs to be finished first. He also has no quotes from TAS or SS, and I definitely think some of those should be added

Yeah Darktail needs to be completed as Spooky says above before he can be nominated.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:44, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

If Darktail doesn't have his page finished soon, how about Berrynose or Dappletail?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:02, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

I don't like Berrynose (personal reasons lmao), so I say Dappletail. Plus, it wouldn't hurt to feature an original arc cat.

Alright Dappletail sounds like a good idea. Anymore comments before the vote?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:39, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Just gonna pop in here and say that "personal reasons" is not really a good way to not feature an article for the FA ... so maybe Berrynose can be next month if we cannot get Darktail finished in time, or if we cannot find another article. 01:46, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

I only agreed with Dappletail because I suggested it and someone agreed :P but yes let's bring up Berrynose for the September FA (and Darktail, if he is ready)<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:49, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Dappletail for the August FA, and Berrynose (or Darktail) for September

Dappletail for August is good, and Darktail ironically fits September since that's when Tigerheart's Shadow releases, imo.

I like Dappletail for August and Darktail for September. :) 04:38, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Dappletail looks good, although I think she could use more quotes. <span style="">20:24 Tue Jul 18

Gorsepaw
So I was looking at the disambiguation pages and it says the 3 Gorsepaws are Gorsepaw (TPB), Gorsetail (P3), and Gorsetail (NP), but on neither of the Gorsetails' pages does it ever mention them or list them as being an apprentice or being called Gorsepaw, so I think this disambiguation is unnecessary and Gorsepaw (TPB) should be renamed to just Gorsepaw? Thoughts? <span style="">12:21 Wed Jul 5

I think that was from the missing kits thing. Since those cites aren't valid, Gorsepaw (TPB) can be renamed Gorsepaw again.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:47, July 6, 2017 (UTC)

I agree, since Missing Kits isn't considered canon, Gorsepaw is the only character with that name and should be moved back. There are several other cases like this: Wildkit (RC) should be moved back to "Wildkit" because Wildfur no longer has "Wildkit" as one of his cited names, and Foggy (Ro) should just become Foggy because Foggy (KP) was Missing Kits also. 17:51, July 6, 2017 (UTC)

I found a surprising number of other examples of this, including Splashkit (CP), Webkit (SC), Duskpaw (HJ), and Weaselkit (SC), in which they can be moved back to their normal name because the only cats sharing their name were from Missing Kits. 00:27, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

I deleted all of the named pages, and renamed the files alongside them. If there any other others that pop up please leave them here. 01:01, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

Okay, but I added redirects for Gorsepaw (TPB) to Gorsepaw and Splashkit (CP) to Splashkit because their previous names are currently linked on a lot of pages and so there are a lot of redlinks without the redirect. <span style="">07:48 Fri Jul 7

I'm not sure if we can do that. I know it'll be a pain, but it's better getting all those links and removing the redirects, in my opinion.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:40, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

All the links are fixed now so I deleted the two pages, but I had added them back earlier so that it wouldn't be redlinks until they were fixed. <span style="">20:20 Tue Jul 18

Shadepaw
In Secrets of the Clans page 45, it mentions a Shadepaw from RiverClan when the river floods. It seems to be Shadepelt (TPB), who was also a RiverClan cat and was an apprentice at the time but I'm not sure if that would be an assumption. Should the SotC section be added to Shadepelt (TPB) or should a new article be made for this Shadepaw? <span style="">14:01 Fri Jul 7

If there's no absolute evidence, then they need to be seperate. It feels like a bit of a stretch to me, and since SotC is pretty old, they might have meant for Shadepaw to be a one-time mention. Keep them seperate unless there's solid proof.

Well, if that's the case, then Silverpaw (TPB) should be treated the same way and have the Silverpaw that appears in Secrets of the Clans get a separate page. I kind of disagree with that, though, since Shadepaw and Silverpaw both appear in books at the exact same time the short story is set and it makes no sense whatsoever that the two apprentices wouldn't be the same ones that already exist at that time period. 14:30, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

I mean, we made Smokepaw (SotC) already because of a similar case of lack of proof, so I'd agree with making Shadepaw and Silverpaw extra pages.

I think Smokepaw is a different case, because there was no Smokepaw proven to be in ShadowClan at the time (Smokepaw (NP) died before that story, which we know because it's set at the lake and he died on the journey, while Smokefoot never had a cited apprentice name). Meanwhile, the story where Silverpaw and Shadepaw appear is set during Forest of Secrets, which is a book in which they appear. It doesn't make a lot of sense that the authors would create not one, but two new characters with the exact same names as characters already living at the same time. 15:19, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

I don't know it's like saying that the Leopardfur, Stonefur or Blackclaw from the same passage isn't Leopardstar, Stonefur or Blackclaw. It's around the same time period, everyone is in the right position for it, everything matches up.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:28, July 8, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:41, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Just realized I didn't say my own opinion on this, but I agree with you Stealthfire, I think it's fair to say that this Shadepaw is Shadepelt if we say that Blackclaw from one book is the same Blackclaw from another book. <span style="">15:52 Tue Jul 18

^^I agree with Stealthfire.