Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Blanks - What about the kits?
Okay, since I cannot seem to find where we agreed to only use these for full-grown cats, I'm starting a discussion. So, as far as I know, we have Adderkit, Blossomkit, Mosskit, Larchkit, Hollykit, and probably a couple others that I missed. Some people think that they should only be used for full-grown cats, but I can't remember where we actually agreed to that. So, what should we do? Honestly, I think the blanks should be used for all StarClan cats, regardless of age. Maybe we should resize the StarClan blanks so there are some specifically for those kits in StarClan. After all, they are StarClan blanks.

If we're not going to use the full-size blanks, then what do we do? That's not right to only use the StarClan blanks for "adult" cats, especially if the blanks were made for cats who are in StarClan. It's excluding the younger cats. Apparently we started a discussion and never finished it, so here I am.

Comments?

I thought we weren't going to make new images for the kits of StarClan since the StarClan blanks were made because there are no ranks in StarClan, and we decided a long time ago that kit is an age, not a rank. 03:20, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Though I originally supported the idea of having kit starclan blanks for them and still do, I will point out that this is absolutely no different than with kittypets and rogues and loners. They're full grown blanks, and therefore kits of that rank don't get it. They're as much that rank as Starclan cats are theirs, so I don't see why this should be any different than that. And we don't need to agree on the blanks being full grown cats, you can clearly see it. The proportions, size, ect. It's just not something you agree upon, it's something you can clearly see, and they were approved like that.

So though I would support Whiskey changing the size and proportions of them and putting up kit starclan blanks, I really don't know that it's needed, since we've had this case in the past. Whoever let's make it clear that the kits in starclan shouldn't get sc chararts till this discussion is finished. Shelly y u edit conflict? >:C 03:22, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

As Shelly said, there are no ranks in StarClan, so I think every cat in StarClan should get the blank. You forgot Perchkit x3  03:23, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Duck, the point of my statement was that the blanks were made because there are no ranks in StarClan, and that kit is not really a rank. 03:26, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Um I pretty sure that's not what shelly was saying.... Since kit is an age, not a rank, it doesn't wrongly portray starclan cats. The blanks were made cause the cats who were leader and such weren't still leader in StarClan. However these cats are still kits in starclan. They shouldn't need anything more since they didn't change rank, nor age. I swear imma smack you if you edit conflict again 03:27, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Whoops, read it wrong, but still think kits should get the blank, or at lease a modified version of the blank, they are StarClan members. x3 Now you're edit conflicting me, Paleh. D=  03:34, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

How long did it take you to type that? xD But Duck, the Starclan blanks portray a lack of rank. Kits don't have a rank as is. Why should we use a full grown blank, or make a smaller version of the blank for a cat who doesn't have a rank anyways and s correctly portraying the ranking is starclan? And again, the case isn't really any different than kittypets and such. They're still kittypets, but they simply don't get the image cause of their age. That's how we've always done it, and I don't think this should be much different. 03:39, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Ummm... Along time, lol I get sidetracked easily. xP But in my eyes, they are a part of StarClan, members of StarClan, that's like saying that because Frecklewish, and the other daylight-warriors are still kittypets, they shouldn't get warrior images, Maybe a switch template would be good for this, a modified version of the blanks and the kit image. owo I don't know if I'm making any sense x3   03:47, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

But being part of sktclan means being a rank, in her case, MC. Cody joined TC temporarily, but she didn't get an image because she never became a warrior or anything. You don't get a blank for joining something, you get it for actually changing ranks or ages. Which the starclan kits do not. There's no rank change or age change on them. It'd be pointless making blanks for those guys. 03:50, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

SktClan? lol Yes, but Cody was never shown to have any desire to be part of ThunderClan, these kits do not have a choice, they are members of StarClan, therefore they should get an image for it. 03:54, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

As I said, joining something doesn't mean you need to get a new image. That's be like saying we should make a new rank for the rogues that form groups together and such like Jingo. Clan cats get images when the join purely because a rank automatically comes with joining. They go together with normal clans. StarClan is different, they don't have ranks period, so there shouldn't be an image just for joining. The images are there because they're no longer the rank of any blanks we have, except for the kits, who didn't have a rank in the first place so didn't change. Going by that logic, kittypet, rogue, and loner kits should get different kit images than clan kits. Oh gimme a break, the t is close to the y DX 03:59, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

I still stand by my original opinion, that they should get an image. 04:04, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

-shrugs- To each their own, I put my opinion. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what everyone else thinks. Oh also a little note, if we make altered starclan kit blanks for them, we have to make altered kittypet/rogue/loner kit blanks for other characters. o3o Jus' sayin'. 04:09, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think they need another set of blanks. Just give them the StarClan blank. Like Paleh said, the kittypet, rogue, and loner don't get smaller blanks for their kits. If this does pass Whiskey is going to need to figure out a better way of resizing blanks. o3o  04:56, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Resizing the blanks a bit would be a good idea. After all, the kits are still members of StarClan. 12:13, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Why not just having a toggle between the full-sized StarClan blanks and the kit blanks? Honestly, Mosskit and co. are every bit a StarClan member as Whistestorm and others...they're just smaller. They should still get some kind of image. 14:30, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

A toggle would be a good idea. Leggo's got a really good point. They are just as much of a StarClan cat. And I think Mosskit actually says something to that effect in The Last Hope that proves they're not just "kits".

I stick by my argument that nothing should be done. Again, the blanks were made because there are no ranks in StarClan, so the leader, deputy, elder, warrior, and apprentice blanks wouldn't work, but kits are already rankless. 19:40, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Why should we exclude the kits from the blanks? They're StarClan cats all the same, and we made the blank for StarClan cats. The matter of their physical age shouldn't matter, as it's been proven that kits aren't just kits in StarClan.

Mosskit, Adderkit, and Blossomkit all stayed kits in StarClan, as did Yellowfang's daughters. In fact, the only kits we've seen to have aged in StarClan were Smallkit and his siblings, and the Erins stated that was a special case. And no, the blanks weren't just made to represent cats as members of StarClan, they were made to represent, basically, a state of ranklessness. And, as we've already established again and again, kit is an age, not a rank. I believe the dead kits should just be left with their kit blanks unless we've seen them as adults in StarClan. 20:02, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

To me, it didn't seem like these blanks were made to represent rankless cats, but only the StarClan cats. o3o Anyway, I think it would be good to at least have some sort of differentiation between the dead StarClan kits and the living ones. Maybe not use the full StarClan blank. Shrinking that blank down seems like a good idea. Then, the person looking at the image will get the idea that it is a young kit that is deceased in StarClan. It could be awfully confusing to have all kits, dead and alive, to use the seme blank. It's why we made these blanks in the first place, right? So people would know right away that the cat is StarClan, regardless of what kind of cat they were in their clan. As Cloudy said, why would we exclude kits just because of the age in which they died? They're still StarClan cats. Sorry if I'm repeating people x.x;;  22:00, 03, 01, 2013

I agree with the others, the kit's have much of a place in StarClan than any other cat. And Cloudy did point out that Mosskit had indeed matured with her time there, and that they are more than just kits there.(I'm sure that even though their size doesn't, they still 'grow up' in a sense) I also agree on the toggle, for that seems like a good idea, too. asdf im probably repeating too cx  22:04, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not truly opposed to either idea, leaving as is or shrinking the blanks, but I don't think that there should be a new set of blanks made all together. Like has been said before, a kit is no less a part of StarClan than any other cat, they're just smaller. Though there's no evidence that kits can't grow in StarClan, as seen with Smallkit and the others, normally, it seems that kits stay as kits, and they're picture should show a kit, not a full grown cat. So, whether we leave them with their kit charart or shrink the blanks, kits should not be done with the full-size blanks since they're not full grown cats. 22:21, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

I've already stated my opinion on what I think should be done so I wont repeat myself, but I will say Scarlet is right. If we do end up giving them starclan images, they most definitely should not be the full sized ones, as they wrongly portray the cat, and it is confirmed by the erins that kits stay kits in starclan except in the special case of smallkit and his siblings. 13:51, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

There hasn't been much comment on this for a while. Anyone object to shrinking the blanks for the kits, maybe to about the size (generally) of the old apprentice blanks? 02:53, January 8, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, yeah, kit is not a rank, but they died as infants. Mosskit is noted to be hanging around the bottom's of Snowfur's legs. They are rankless but are still smaller than most other StarClan cats, and that's why I believe that they should get a smaller StarClan blank. 05:54, January 8, 2013 (UTC)

Though I don't exactly agree with doing it, I won't object. However they shouldn't be the size of the old app blanks, they should be just barely bigger than our current kit blanks imo. They are /kits/ after all. 04:02, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

I was just suggesting the old apprentice blanks just because in proportion, they'd be pretty small compared to the regular blanks, but they might get all pixelated if they get too small 02:26, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Have we come to any sort of conclusion on this? 11:31, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

It looks like we're resizing them. I just want to ask if I'm supposed to do it and, if so, if they need to be miniatures or proportioned to be kitten-like. 05:30, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

I believe that seems to be the majority consensus. *nods* 05:50, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think you're to be the one who resizes them...and I think they should be smaller, but not necessarily kitten-like... I'm not sure on that. What do you guys think? Because they really shouldn't be teeny-tiny like those demon  kit blanks.

Actually no, despite how much you guys hate the size of those, it does need to be kitten size, meaning roughly the size of the kit blank, maybe a little bit bigger. And yes I think Whiskey is supposed to be the one to do them. 20:08, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Bluestar Question
I know we're tweaking Bluestar's images to be pale, but shouldn't we keep the regular blue leader character? She's been shown that way in art, and I don't know if this counts, or if Mistystar should be made pale, but they're said to very similar/identical (I don't remember which). We do art for characters in CoTC and the mangas, so, I believe she still needs the regular blue image. Thoughts? 07:41, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oh that's right.... Forgot about the cats of the clans image. Hm.... Well she's shown as really really blue, not so much gray in that, so perhaps now that her official shade has changed, she should just get an alt. The normal leader doesn't really match the color in the official art though. In normal cases I'd say that'd be a contradiction to the pale description since it came first, however it's not so much blue gray as dark blue, which doesn't match her description anyways. So yeah probably an alt. As for Mistystar, I'd have to see the exact quote to decide. What book was it again? 20:50, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, so how about we switch the blue leader image to her alt and I can quickly tweak it to her blue color since I have the layers, and then of course the pale's going on her main, so I think a switcharoo would be easiest. And I believe it was in Forest of Secrets (the one where Mistyfoot is pregnant I think) 16:01, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

Have we come to an answer? 11:32, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Mentor Program
Broken record here, but the discussion was archived before anybody really gave any suggestions. Assessments need to be figured out for the mentor program if we're going with the layout and system I suggested a while back. I've updated the draft, but the assessments are still undecided on. I was thinking something like this;
 * Basic charart knowledge
 * Correctly sized blanks
 * Shading
 * Earpink
 * Eyes
 * Solid cats
 * Colored
 * White
 * Black
 * Two patterns of choice
 * Natural pelt colors
 * Basic pattern and pelt knowledge
 * White cats
 * Black cats
 * Bicolor cats
 * Acceptable tabbies
 * Tortoiseshells
 * Flecked/Speckled
 * Mottled/dappled
 * Basic image tweaking knowledge
 * Shading tweaks
 * Blurred lineart fixing
 * Color tweaks
 * Basic pattern altering (adding striped, white, ect.)

Along with perhaps a link to a final assessment image, uploaded to the apprentice's PI or to a site like Iaza or something similar, and a SM can judge whether the apprentice is ready to graduate, rather than just approving any graduation request posted. Let me know what you guys think, and if you have any other suggestions for things to be changed on the draft before it's put into use. 09:37, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I honestly don't think we somebody needs to match all of these. Heck, as a SW doubt I could even assess somebody in their mottled/dappled or flecked/speckled cats. I think just like, say, a solid cat and one other type of pattern would be all that's needed. Otherwise that's also a lot to assess for an optional program. 04:00, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Mmm true I suppose.... hmmm.... Well I do think all the tweaking's neccesary, but maybe not the other things. Sooo few users know how to properly tweak when they first become a warrior, I think that's something they should learn. However yes, probably not all the patterns, maybe just one or two patterns of the mentor's choice? 04:10, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with this...and I quite like it. I think a basic rundown on each of the styles is a good thing for each apprentice to know. Like, they don't need to be able to master the skills, but I think they should know the basics. I fail with mottle, speckled, ect, so I'm not that useful and my tabbies aren't natural. xDD. I also think that teaching them how to properly tweak an image would be nice.

All in all, yeah, these topics would be good to teach, and perhaps a brief lesson would be a good idea, but I don't think it's required they should know it by heart in order to graduate. A solid, and one or two other styles is good enough. And it shouldn't just be assessed by the mentor. Just like in Warriors, there's normally another cat or two helping out.

Though I like the idea of having the final assessment by another user, it'd only work if we have enough active users participating in the mentor program, which I'm not sure we do right now. Perhaps the heads could do it until we get more active in there (if we ever do....)? 05:05, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Updated the list up there for anybody. 05:09, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also, on a slightly different note, what do you guys think of upping the maximum apprentices per users up to three? There are so few active mentors lately, if we start really getting on top of the mentor assignments, there'll be no open spots for aew apprentices soon. 22:20, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also, if we choose to keep the apprentice limit how it is now, what will be done with all the apprentice requests up right now? There are far too many to assign mentors, but it's rather clogged up on there right now. 01:46, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm... I think that mentors should be able to take on more than two apprentices if and only if they're confident enough and sure they can handle it. I don't want to see mentors taking on three or four apprentices at a time if they can't handle it, because that leaves the rest of us to pick up the slack.

Mmmhm *nods* Perhaps just make the limit totally up to the mentor? So they can choose how many they can handle? 01:50, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I wanna get this rolling guys, any comments on things that need to be changed before this is put into place? If put into place as is, the page will be changed to fit the layout on my draft page linked above, the non-strikes assessments will be used, one of the two heads will join the mentor in assessing the apprentice upon graduation, at least till we get more active mentors, mentors will be allowed to choose the amount of apprentices they're willing to take on, and a think that's it.... So guys, suggestions, last minute comments? Or do I have the ok to go ahead and put this into use now? 17:08, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I'd say go ahead and start it on up.. I really have nothing else to add. As long as they're able to handle it, a mentor should be able to take on as many apprentices as they so choose.

The Softpaw Blanks
Mmkay, since I get shot down every time I bring this up on the approval page, I feel I should bring this up here.

I have nothing but love and respect for Ivy, but five months is too long for any image to be up for approval, even blanks. The blanks are, in my opinion, still nowhere near being done, and I think they should be passed on to someone that will be able to finish them while still keeping the pose Ivy came up with. To dispell any thoughts that I might want the honor of making the blanks, no, I'm not asking to take these over, and I don't want to. I just want them to get done.

So that's what I have to say. Be angry at me all you want, I don't think we should devote almost half a year to an image, even blanks. 21:37, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to offend Ivy or hurt her feelings, but I really do agree completely. I did suggest a while back that they should be given two months, and that was kinda thrown out the window. But in any case 5 months is just too long. Of course the pose should be kept, since that is what we all voted on, but they need to be passed on to somebody... I'm sorry Ivy. 22:10, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

sorry Ivy ;.; I agree with Shelly. It's been too long, and the blanks actually aren't really the ones I fell in love with all those months ago, they're completly different. I'm extremely sorry, Ivy. ;.; 03:49 Thu Jan 17

Loonie and I were thinking of this a bit ago. Ivy, you're talented and I love you, but for the good of the project we have to get these approved quickly. Your style will be kept, because it is a creative pose, but it's best for someone else to try and take them on. I'm sorry, ilu. 20:20, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

They are beautiful Ivy, and I'm sorry to say this but I agree with everything said above. Five months is too long. It's for the best for someone else to take them on. 00:33, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

You know... I won't comment on this, as I have mixed feelings towards this for multiple reasons. I'll say this, however. I'll go with whatever the project decides. I like the blanks, and the progress made recently is quite good, but, it's not up to me, and I don't want to get into arguments over it.

I have to agree. Sorry Ivy, but it's taken too long and they still aren't close to done. They really should be passed on to somebody else. 03:21, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, more than ten days later and no one has presented a reason not to pass the blanks on, what shall we do? 04:04, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it is counterproductive for a user to be working on blanks for five months with little improvement. However, I also see it as counterproductive for that user to lose five months of her work. No doubt, I recognize that there are several members in PCA who can most likely redo the blanks with the same pose, but they can't with the same idea in mind as Ivy had. Had the trend between December 12th and January 10th gone on longer, I would be in favor of handing these blanks off to someone else, but because the uploads from January 17th to the present have much improved in my opinion, I would like to see Ivy complete the job. 04:21, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, scratch out my last post. I agree with Teldy. Ivy's worked so hard on making the blanks so far, so why not let her finish the job? It'd be 5 months wasted if they were declined. 13:54, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well if we choose to let her keep the blanks, I think an official time limit should be put on them, just in case. While I agree they have improved recently, they're quite far from the original blanks we all voted for honestly... the only thing that's really the same is the fact that it's running, and a cat could be shown running in a lot of ways. Honestly, I'm sticking to my opinion that they should be handed off, though I do feel bad that 5 months of work would be lost. But if she keeps them, what do you guys think about one more month? Past that is just too long in my opinion. That'll be over 6 months. If they're not approved by then, I think that they'll be handed off. 07:03, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Paleh. While they have improved, it's still taking too long. Six months is a good number, since past that is just way too much. I'd love to see her complete the job also, but not if it's going to take so that much time. 04:34, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Defining Descriptions?
Shelly brought this up on Ferncloud's redo nomination, and I think this is a good idea. So I'm gonna steal it. It's a pain in the bottom when people go start arguing whether something's dappled enough, or is it a proper tabby, or is it black or dark grey.

I think it would be pretty simple to do. We could use a warrior charart and fill it in, flat-colored, with a basic example of what the description means for the project, and then maybe a couple "no-nos" - similiar patterns that do not fall under the description. For instance, we could present a tabby (which would just be as simple as the guidelines could possibly allow) and give and example of, say, a spotted cat and a tortoiseshell so that the difference could be seen.

It might take some work, and the patterns might need to go through approval or voting, but in the long run, this would protect the consistency of the images and articles. Suggestions please, because I'm sure there's a better way this page could be done, but since I liked the idea I figured I'd get the discussion rolling. 19:50, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we need image examples, would make it way too limited. Most of these things can't be shown with just one picture for it, like for example mottled. It could have a lot of different styles. Or tabbies. I think we should just have a list of text descriptions very clearly defining what's what and what's not acceptable, and so on. But I do like the idea of defining this so there are no more arguments on it. I just don't think images are the way to go. 05:51, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Like Paleh, I'd prefer text definitions. Idea stealer. Visual examples are fine in the apprentice tutorial, where it's a given that the examples are just basic representations for what you can do to make a charart, but in something like this it would appear way too limited to have visual representations. 07:02, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, what about for those who are more visually inclined, such as users like myself? Some people have a hard time visualizing what you tell them and it's easier to show them. I'm for a visual showing what is acceptable and what's not 00:37, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

What Ivy said is basically why I suggested images. As long as it's stated that it's possible patterns could vary, images aren't limiting. It would certainly be a lot easier to show somebody a pelt pattern than tell them it, since people tend to see different things in their mind when given a description - which is why we need the page in the first place: because everybody's visualizing different things when it comes to a description. 00:51, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

But a lot of different things could fit into a description and still be considered mottled, tabby, ect., as they should. Using images limits it way too much, espiecally for newer users who don't understand they don't have to follow the image exactly. If you absolutely must have visual examples, perhaps we could simply list pictures of real cats that fit the description. Since people's styles are so different. I still think we'd be better just having text personally. 06:53, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I, like Ivy, learn better when there's a visual representation of something that I should make. Take for example mottled and flecked. Unless you show me a picture, I'm going to have a very vague idea of what it should look like. I think, perhaps a very basic example of what each pelt style could look like would be a good idea, and perhaps link to other, already approved images, and say for more examples, check here and here, ect. Take for example, tortie cats. You could give a very basic example (maybe showing how colors should lay with one another, different methods of blending them...ect), but link to cats like Fernshade, Spottedleaf, Poppyfrost, or Larksong, and say that these are also examples, despite them not looking the same.

I can't learn anything with just text. I need something visual to go along with the text. I learned how to make torties and other styles from looking at the pictures, and modifying them with my own ideas. Who's to say that others can't do the same?

People can always look at images on the wiki to see different styles. these are definitions of what's acceptable and what's not. But the definitions can't be displayed in one picture, and would look different depending on who did it. Like I said, if we must have images, I think we should have actually photos of cats of that pattern. Nothing else. There's just too many things that vary between individual artists' styles to be able to ask someone to make a definition image that will really be a guide for what the pattern should look like. I do not under any circumstances think any artist should make these things. 19:44, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

And also, approved images aren't always perfect, and again have very many things that are simply from style alone and wouldn't be part of the definition. It makes no sense to me to use them for this. 19:45, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Actual cats is a good idea. It would be loose enough. But I do think that we must have images, since different interpretations of words, I repeat, is the reason we have these issues. With art, it's much harder to misinterpret an image than it is a bunch of words. We use images to prove points all the time, I don't see how this is any different. 04:28, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

-sigh- After a few arguments now, I think it would be a good idea to include color in these definitions, just to clear things up. Again, probably cat pictures as just a color block would be too limited. 21:54, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I am absolutely against defining colors. All that does is nail down any remnants of creativity we have left. You guys got up in arms when people started wanting realistic chararts because it destroyed creativity, why would we go to this? And color is intangible and fuzzy, not something easily defined. A ginger cat can look brown but still be ginger because that's their genes. I'm fine with giving a base description and examples of patterns, but no, absolutely not when it comes to colors. There are a million shades of light brown and no one should be restricted to the few on the list. On that note, these ought to be tossed. They aren't just inaccurate, but they encourage apprentices to limit themselves to just these colors, and we decided long ago that it's artist's choice on pupil placement. 03:35, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

If not done right defining patterns does the same. If done right it'll show the range of color. I specifically said not a block or anything cause it'd be way too limiting. Honestly, it's a very loose definition. I'm not asking people to color pick from something. I'm saying we should have some kind of reference to use when unsure. There's no need to get up in arms just cause this was suggested after the whole brown thing. .-. I actually suggested that cause it was simply another disagreement about color after many. Need I bring up Oakheart's tawny alt? x.x

As for the tuts, no. Most of the amazing PCA members I know learned from those at the start, and wouldn't know how to do eyes or earpink at all if they hadn't. It doesn't say anywhere that they have to follow the chart, it's just there for help. I wouldn't be opposed to an update with more variation and more accuracy, but getting rid of it is a no. 03:52, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * I linked to the part of the tutorial about Ear and Eyes, not the tutorial as a whole. Is this why you two were complaining at me in the chat? Of course I don't want the entire tutorial tossed out. I want it revamped, but on that one section completely tossed. 03:56, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Gah Oakheart that took wayyyy too long anskasfsaf. Anyways. No, we're not getting rid of the charts. Not in the least bit. They provide a basic example of how to use the tools/shading placement/eyes, ect. A user can branch off from there if they wish (as users like myself, Paleh, and multiple others have). It's there for a starting point, or just a simple idea as to how something might be done. It is no way, shape, or form considered mandatory to use anything on that tutorial. It's there to help. I wouldn't be able to do anything without that page, and look where I am now. It's staying. Perhaps a fixture of some of it...but it's not being gotten rid of. Just...no.

Also, I wasn't referring to the whole tutorial. If you'll read my post again, you'll notice I only refer to eyes and earpink. .-. 04:03, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I do like the charts and I used them all the time when I was an apprentice and learning how to do everything. Personally, I think the goal of the tutorial should be to give apprentices/starting charartists a starting ground because when you're just starting out and someone says "blur the shading on the haunch, thicken it on the back, and make the ear-pink paler" that could be really confusing. Like Shelly said earlier, I'd rather not specify colors; like with the ear-pink chart, but something that occured to me was to maybe try a gradient between what could be considered realistic prepares to be shot for idea  To find a middle ground for the shading charts, maybe we could have a shaded sphere or shape that resembles a cat's shoulder if we decide to revamp the shading tutorial personally, I loved those as an apprentice Hides from rages. As for the descriptions, I like the idea of using outside-the-wiki photos and pictures since they offer a wider range of color and pattern and can be interpreted in several different ways. 04:18, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'm against removing ''anything. ''People each have their own ways of learning, so why not have them all? The tutorials are a good step-by-step description, plus videos for people who like to follow along, and examples for people who like to base their work off of something. As for the limiting, ''why? ''Artists should be able to use any color or style they want.. and each of them have their own styles :p The charts are helpful, yes, but you shouldn't be made to use the ''exact shade of earpink for every ginger cat. ''I followed the charts when I didn't know right from wrong, yes, but now I understand which colors go to which. Some new users do not understand the concepts which is why the charts and tutorials should be kept. Everyone is different, is what I'm saying, and we all learn from different things. I don't think we should remove anything, but you can add whatever the hell you want to. I barely understand what goes on here anymore about realism and all that, so just do what you want.

Why are we striving so much for "perfection" anyways? We're getting the job done and that's what matters. We're not graded on realism and perfection. Everyone has their own unique way of doing things. Plus, the charts have helped us for such a long time in the past, so why get rid of them now? apologize if I'm off-topic. I didn't read all the posts thoroughly. 21:33, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Kay we're getting a tad off topic now, so if you guys wanna make changes to the tut, please make a separate discussion about it. Seems we've strayed from the definition subject quite a bit now. :b 07:14, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Reserving?
How do I reserve an image? Offline ~SparkyWhisker4~

Add your name (alphabetically) in to the Current Projects table if you haven't already and then just add the character's name and the abbreviation for the blank that's supposed to be used. 20:03, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

It says I can't edit the current projects. It only says 'View source.' Offline ~SparkyWhisker4~

You need to be logged in. 20:28, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Could I join this? And also, one thing. You don't have to take it seriously. Fernshade as a kit, her chest has too much color. The other pictures have a fully white chest. I changed that, but I didn't upload it. I'm sorry to bother you.

Please add this ^ in a new headline. To do it, go into 'Source mode,' put 4 ='s and put the subject headline between them. Thank you.

Could I Join?
I was wondering if I could join...EarlyBird-morningBird (talk) 18:06, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Of course you can join. I'll add you in as a kit right now. Make sure to take a look at the guidelines and if you need to, look at the apprentice tutorials. And if you think you need a mentor, just sign up for one on mentor program. Thanks for your interest in joining and we hope you enjoy! 11:28, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

I was just wondering, may I join? I'm very good at digital art! thank you for your time! Takeachance32 (talk) 23:48, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Of course. Icy has linked all the things that are useful, which are the Guidelines which I would advise you'd read, tutorials for extra help, and the mentor program if you wish to apply for a mentor. Thank you for your interest in joining. :) 02:51, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Can I join too? I have an interest in joining too, and I have read the apprentice tutorials. I use Paint and GIMP 2 make Chararts, but that's the only way I do it. (Iwon'truinanything) DarkstreamMountainClan (talk) 23:07, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Hehe, of course you can join. Icy linked everything helpful above, and I'll go add your name in. Welcome to the project! :3 00:47, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Another Question
How do you shade blanks? Whenever I try to make a wiki sprite, they always end up flat colored. I see lots that are shaded, with darker/lighter colors in some parts. How do you shade sprites? DarkstreamMountainClan (talk) 19:40, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

You can find out at the apprentice tutorials. 14:59, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Tutorial Approval
This is something I've been meaning to suggest for a while. Cloudy just reminded me about it, so I figure now would be a good time to bring it up while it's still on my mind. I think we need some sort of approval process for the apprentice tutorials. As it stands, any tutorial can just be posted up, regardless of whether it's actually correct or not. I don't want to offend anyone, but we do have some tutorials that are teaching things incorrectly. I don't want that to happen, seeing as so many users looking at them don't know enough to know what's to be followed from there, so they'd just think everything was fact.

I think the talk page of the tutorials should be used as an approval place for them. They can be posted there, and users can leave suggestions on making it better, or if something's been left out or is incorrect, and then it can be approved, just as a normal image would. Seeing as this is teaching new users how to get a normal image approved, I do think they should have to go through some kind of screening before being posted. Perhaps the images for it could simply be posted on the user's PI or something, so the current tutorial image won't get cluttered with tutorials that haven't been approved.

What do you guys think? 01:07, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

If they're incorrect, then yeah. Just wondering, though, does this apply to the video I just posted up, was something wrong with it? 01:40, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

No, I doubt that, Ivy. There are multiple sections within that tutorial that are outdated, or incorrect and really should be changed. I agree that they should be approved first, since some might be doing something that goes against what should actually be done. You're welcome. ouo

No Ivy, it has nothing to do with your video. :b Like cloudy said there's just outdated things, and some thing that include some of those "myths" I busted a little while ago (as well as some I forgot to bust...). And plus I wanted to suggest this before there were any tuts that needed to be fixed. It's just something that would be a good idea to do in the future, as they're teaching users how to make images that will be approved. They shouldn't be questionable in any way. 01:57, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Join PCA
Hello I'm *Starlingfoot*. I was just wondering could I join PCA? I'm very good at coloring but not very good at markings and shadings. Thanks. 01:48, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Sure thing, you'll be added in as a kit. Take a peek at the guidelines, and the apprentice tutorials might be able to help with the shading and markings. :3 You can also go to thementor program if you need to. 08:12, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Rushtail kit charart?
I noticed while browsing Duckpaw's page, this quote that she says:"If you're that small, maybe you should have stayed in the nursery. You're spoiling everything!" (Battles of the Clans, page 43) She's saying she was in the nursery, therefore she would have been a kit. What do y'all think? 00:20, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Ohyus~ Definitely ouo 00:42, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Yeppers, I'd think so.

I agree, that sounds like Rushtail should get one! 02:30, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Can I join?
Hi! I'm Bramblewind, and I'm wondering if I could join PCA as a kit. Thanks!Bramblewind (talk) 23:56, February 11, 2013 (UTC)