Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Official Designs/Manga Designs alts.
Before we got the new queen alts, we had offical art alts/manga alts; which have since then been removed/and or not redone. So im proposing an idea to bring them back.

Yes, i know that character designs are up to the the artists, but what im saying is that we could have chararts with the official art in the character pixels aswell. Not as the main image; but atleast on their page. Mainly so they will have more variety, while still including the designs the Illustrator created, but still having our own designs as the main images.

Also, Some characters could use alts like Silverstream. (Shown as Blue-gray tabby; Blue-gray is quite a few shades away from Silver.) and possibly Leafstar. (Shown as cream colored cat with brown tabby patches.)

We already have made chararts for characters as they were shown in TUG and CotC; (Onestar; Brown and white/cream alt), etc. And we already make alts on how some characters are shown in the black and white pages in the manga. I dont see why we cant have alts for the manga cover art aswell, since it is official art. Unless our designs are almost identical to the offical art, i think we should atleast add "official designs" alts to the character pages as they were shown in the pictures in the guides/mangas.

This will probably get shot down, but this has been bugging me for awhile. 23:01, September 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a good idea, but the only thing I'd be worried about is copyright issues, because we don't own the official images. Unless you mean doing alternates /exactly/ as they are depicted in the books. 11:22 PM, Tue Sep 30, 2014

Yes, this is what i mean. Using our blanks, and try to match the official designs as much as possible; not using the offical images themselves from the books, but simply matching those same patterns to the best of our ability.-- 23:27, September 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * I like this. In fact, I was just about to post something about this for Leafstar (I just finished reading SD again), so I think this is a great idea. We'd just have to find all of the pictures, which could be hard, but, then again, it's not much different from finding sources from the books. 11:33 PM, Tue Sep 30, 2014

*nudges* Can we get some other comments on this please? 9:15 PM, Mon Oct 6, 2014

I think we did this for a while... quite a bit of time ago... But I think we could definitely do it again. Some people might not connect the official desc. and the manga ones, because they are so drastically different. And since we count the manga as canon, we should definitely use the desc. in those. It'd be a different matter if the content was not considered canon, I think. 22:18, 10/6/2014

Can we get some more opinions on this?-- 18:56, October 12, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a reasonable idea. I dont know why they were ever discontinued; It still counts. Manga descriptions are used for manga-only cats (like Diesel), I don't see why they shouldnt be made into alts. 11:59, October 14, 2014 (UTC)

While I don't agree with Leafstar, because we do not know she is shown as brown and white and to say so is an assumption/plus it could be brown and cream for all we know- which is her confirmed description- we just show it differently, I would be okay with readding older images that were removed. Millie isn't shown in anywhere near the description she has, and we already have those alts done- they got removed for some odd reason.

I think this is a good idea, especially the official art part. For example Sol on the cover of outcast or wherever he appears, doesn't look like the charart he was made. --EosOfTheDawn (talk) 12:30, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea. There are a few books with alternate looking characters, especially Lionblaze. The Sight shows him as orange and Leafpool's Wish and The Forgotten Warrior looks more a dark golden-brown to me and his tabby stripes are not as visible. They also seem to like giving Hollyleaf short fur on The Sight and The Ultimate Guide than long fur on Hollyleaf's Story and Sunrise. --Stealthfire star (talk) 02:00, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

No, its been established time and time again that we do not make images based off of official art if they are not extremely different from their canon descriptions. Mainly because Wayne's style and pattern for the cats changes all the time. Millie's official description is completely different from her depiction in the manga, so yes I would agree that her alts should be readded to her page. Other alts based off of Cats of the Clans and The Ultimate Guide art are the same way - they have a completely different image than what they were shown in the book. For example, Boulder is a silver tabby, but in CotC he is blue, Heathertail is ginger, etc. I don't know why Silverstream's blue-grey alts were ever removed but they shouldn't have been as she's the same case as Boulder. But Lionblaze's depiction on FW is not two shades off of his description, and there's no reason to make a charart based off of a cover image if it's so similar to his given description. The same with Sol - he is described as a tortoiseshell tom, his chararts are tortoiseshell, and his cover image is tortoiseshell: he does not need an alt.

As for fur length, that's so minor and can easily be explained by seasons or even the cat's mood and doesn't deserve an entire alt dedicated to it. Half the time the authors themselves can't even keep track of the length of the cats fur in their narration.

As for manga alts, I believe since most of the time they are simplified versions of their canon description, they should not receive and entire image unless they are very different, such as Lionblaze appearing as a solid cat instead of a tabby. Basically, if they have a completely different pattern than in the books or they're a black cat or something and turn up white, things of that nature, that's when they should get a charart based off of the manga and should be entirely in greyscale. Otherwise the depictions of the cats in the mangas are based off of what the artist knows the description to be, hence why Millie is a rose colored tabby instead of silver - all he knew was that she was a tabby and went from there.

Now if you want to argue that we should include a gallery of scans of images from the books, that should probably go to another project, such as Characters, World, or even Reality, though I believe we don't do that do to copyright and a desire to keep copyrighted images on the wiki to just book covers for the most part. 15:08 Fri Oct 31 2014

I think with Hollyleaf she has short but thick fur, again though that could be explained with seasons. I think having the covers/official art on the pages is both a good and a bad idea, because of major description changes, but we also have to be careful if we show the official art because of copyright. I think in cases like Leafstar, her cover design and our design for her are very different from one another and she should have an alt for that. (only for the leader and anything earlier because she hasn't been described as a queen in anything but the manga (right?) 3:44 PM, Sun Nov 2, 2014

Oh no; that's not what im suggesting. Im not talking about adding the pages of pictures from the books; im simply saying we can try and match the designs given to the cats with our own blank, given they aren't close resembling our own designs. =) Showing the actual cover art and official art pictures would be copyright; so using our blanks instead and trying to match those designs seems like a much better way to avoid this.-- 17:07, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

I think you're missing what's been said about Leafstar. She's still shown as brown and cream, which is what her description is. She shouldn't get an alt for that- just because our chararts are different than what her comic description is (they're not manga, do not call them that, please), doesn't mean she gets an alt for artist's interpretation. Now, if she was shown as brown and white in those comics, that's another story. But, she was shown as brown and cream.

I understand that she is still shown as brown and cream, and I'm talking about the cover on SD, not comic/manga (which they have been referred to as manga so I see no reason to change that) which the pattern is much different. And besides, I was merely using her as an example, Snow. 5:48 PM, Sun Nov 2, 2014

We have no citation to her being on the cover of SkyClan's Destiny. No matter how obvious, we cannot assume. Again, she looks (They're not manga. Manga is of Japanese origin and reads from right to left. These are comics, as they read from left to right.)

No, I don't think we should require the manga and charart designs to match. If you want to make their images match then go ahead but otherwise no. It goes against our realistic design standards for characters and would waste countless amazing images. It simply wouldn't be worth it. 19:22 Sun Nov 2 2014

I don't think anyone said anything about making them match as the normal image, I'm almost positive that Breeze is saying that for some of the images that we have cover cites for we should have an alternate of that image (in whatever blank it should be, like leader or queen), whereas redoing the images we have right now would be dumb because they are amazing peices of art and deserve to be recognized. Should we just have a vote on this or something instead of (what seems like to me)  arguing? 8:31 PM, Sun Nov 2, 2014

Why? What's the point? The cover images are usually just simple headshots of the characters and you can see few markings besides whats on their face and chest. There's not nearly enough to make an alt out of. It'd be one thing if Lionblaze showed up as a black cat on a cover, but for just a shade's difference there's no point. That's even the standard for normal images with descriptions in the books. And what would we vote on? Like, you do realize that working on a wiki is mostly arguing your point, right? Also, if you're going say something don't cover it up with small text. 16:59 Thu Nov 6 2014

Thats true, but wheres the harm in making alts for the design's from books like CotC and TUG, and the manga's? (Given they aren't close resembling our own designs) They show the cats full image (or atleast most of them do) Cats like Sol and Millie, and some others have design's completely different than ours. I'm not saying we should replace our own designs, all im proposing is that we make alts to go into their character pixels with their original book given designs. Our design's will still be the main image, but the official patterned copies using our blanks will simply just be an alt. That way, we are still recognizing how the illustrator designed them, and also adding more variety.-- 22:55, November 8, 2014 (UTC)

I still think you're missing what we're saying. Sol is still a tortoiseshell, and a lot of the images in CotC and TUG are already showing a character's description. Just because it doesn't show what we have, doesn't mean it's not the same thing. It's just how Wayne decides to paint the characters. He doesn't know how we design them (to my knowledge), and he's given basic descriptions, so he just works with what he has. It doesn't make them anymore official than our designs. We go with what we know, and Wayne goes with what he knows. Millie's design in The Lost Warrior (the entire trilogy) is because the artist (I think anyways) only knew she was a tabby, nothing more, nothing less.

Alright. It was just an idea =). Sol used to have an alt for his design on Long Shadow's and TUG, but its since been removed? Same with Silverstream and Millie. Maybe we could just re-add the images that were made back then back to the character pages?-- 23:10, November 8, 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good, but if we do that we'll have to make alts for the other cats, or it wouldn't really make sense.--EosOfTheDawn (talk) 13:35, November 22, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, what I'm seeing with making chararts in general is given people a good view of a cat's looks because there are a lot of cats without pictures, and the Erin's get it mixed up sometimes. The Charart is supposed to be the picture of the cat. Sol for example, if you want something to do with Long Shadows picture or Ultimate Guide picture, than redo his pictures to make him look just like it, because they are supposed to be the picture of him. The two shades off idea is good, because blue-gray tabby is way off light silver-gray and black tabby (I like being specific) I certainly wouldn't recognise it as Silverstream if the books didn't point it out.

We are literally painting a picture of a cat for everyone, the correct one and closest we can as described in the books and since the graphic novels are part of the warriors series, we could use some of the pictures for inspiration for our pictures as honestly, I like Bramblestar's tabby pattern in the graphic novel than as the charart (sorry to the artist who made the pattern! I still like it!) Especially with the SkyClan and the Strangers series, picture Leafstar, what does she look like? Either way, it's most likely Brown and cream tabby, but which way? Simple brown and cream like the chararts, or cream with tabby patches like the graphic novels? I think we need to capture what's most memorable about a cat's looks in the graphic novels and put them as charart.

Official alts are too confusing to me but graphic novel alts for mistaken description, that's the same as the books mistakenly calling them a different colour. We also look to the books for cats' descriptions, so why not look to the graphic novels for descriptions too? As long as it matches the description, we can draw it up on a blank and people can easily recognize it.

That's my opinion in a not-so-organized essay that I suddenly typed up. Agree or disagree, this is what I think of this. --Stealthfire star (talk) 02:19, December 10, 2014 (UTC)

The chararts aren't canon descriptions, though. Those chararts are how the artist sees them- Sol is a prime example. We are not required to match the images given in Cats of the Clans, Code of the Clans, The Ultimate Guide, Battles of the Clans, or any other book cover/picture of a cat. These include the graphic novels. Sol's charart is what he's called- a tortoiseshell tom. Bramblestar is a dark brown tabby (his leader is my image and I'm slightly offended since I had a pattern to match), Leafstar is brown and cream, ect. It's kinda silly and honestly pointless to change chararts based on matching their "canon" descriptions- which the graphic novels aren't even that. They're grayscaled and we do not know what colors they are. Plus, those patterns are more often than not over simplified and really not the best idea to match. Unless they are a drastic change from their written description, then we don't do anything with it. I quite like Leafstar's pattern in the SkyClan graphic novels myself, but that doesn't mean I think we should redo her chararts. That's pretty counterproductive and a waste of a perfectly acceptable set.

Those pictures are not "the picture of a cat". Wayne is given a basic description, and that's how he chooses to paint them. The other artists involved help too- making their own patterns based on the lists they're given. We are not bound by those basic lists, not when we have detailed written ones we can use. tldr; I really don't think we should change the chararts we already have for the overly-basic descriptions we have in the graphic novels- the designs aren't official in the least.

I disagree about redoing all the chararts to match the books; that would just be pointless. I was proposing an idea to either bring back the old alts that were made for that (Silverstream, Millie, Sol, and a few others) or just add a new category to the charart images labeled "Official Design Alt", or something of the like. Not all cats would need it; only the ones shown in COTC, BOTC, TUG, etc. (Given they don't look exactly like our current designs) Even if we don't add another category; i'd just like to see the old images back on their pages as alts. I honestly saw no point in them being removed, tbh.-- 06:28, December 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sol wouldn't come back, though. He is still a tortoiseshell cat, so that's totally out of the question. I understand Silverstream and Millie, and I'm all for those two, but Sol is already depicted as a tortoiseshell cat in his chararts. Just because the designs don't match doesn't mean they're not the same kind of pattern. A tortoiseshell is a tortoiseshell, simple as that.

Well let me just slide in here for a second. What Im understanding is that Breeze thinks there should be alts as the manga shows the cat. Personally I don't think we should do that. First of all, you cannot see the whole cat in the mangas most of the time. Secondly they're in black in white. So we can't confirm an official color for the alt because of that, and no we can't just assume it's their desc color. Thirdly we'd need a citing. We can't just say "it was in the manga" because I've seen that some of the books don't include the mangas. Nobody would understand what the alt is doing there. It's different when they say "he was accidentally mentioned as black" so then we make an alt.

But also I'm sure the Erin's hired people to draw those, and who knows they might now have known the description of each cat. It's different with Diesel though of course.

So yeah not sure if I made any sense at all, I'm low on sleep and food. But yeah I disagree that we should make alts for those cats. Sorry Breeze it was a nice idea. 18:43, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

That point has already been debated about, Dark. What im saying now is that we should atleast add the old alts that were made (and removed) before the new queen blanks were approved. (Atleast Millie's and Silverstream's, anyway.) I see your points, though.-- 00:51, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

Bluestar's official art design alt is still on her page--EosOfTheDawn (talk) 02:19, December 30, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, let me get this straight. Breeze is saying that we should make alternate character arts for cats that have drastically different descriptions/depictions on book covers or official guides. AKA cats that are different colors, are missing a tabby pattern, etc. If this is correct, then I'm all for this. This is supposed to be a fully comprehensive encyclopedia that covers every aspect of the Warriors series, correct? Then I don't think the character art should be left out of that "every aspect" thing. Unless, of course, the official depiction isn't very different from the current canon description that we have. Alts shouldn't be made if we don't have a cite for that cat being depicted. I'm sorry if I'm wrong with any of this, this discussion is just so very confusing >-< 04:28, December 31, 2014 (UTC) Has this gone into action yet? 04:24, January 3, 2015 (UTC)

No, it hasnt. We're still discussing whether we are going to do anything about it. 08:08, January 4, 2015 (UTC)

If there aren't anymore comments, I'd like to re-add Millie's alts to her page, alongside Silverstream's, and the others we discussed. Not Sol though, as it's already been discussed that he's a tortoiseshell cat.

I wouldnt object to that. If everyone else agrees, i'd like to see them on their pages again.-- 19:50, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

StarClan kit subcategory
I was thinking we could have a sub category of StarClan kits in the StarClan cat section. It is more or so related to the charart part of the character pages but I think it could be easier for people searching for the characters with a StarClan kit charart (especially for those at Project Charart) I'll don't mind if this is rejected though. XD I just thought this could be useful. --Stealthfire star (talk) 01:02, December 9, 2014 (UTC)

If PCA wants to put this on the kit images, they can do it, but a starclan kit isn't an actual "official" rank, so they wouldn't be getting this category. 02:28, December 12, 2014 (UTC)

I'd be up for adding that to the images themselves, honestly. It would keep better track of the images since while they are StarClan cats, they are also using the StarClan kit lineart. Shall we move this discussion to PCA, in that case?

Yep, you can go ahead and move this to PCA. 02:39, December 12, 2014 (UTC)

(above section was from PC)

Okay, it's been moved, and I like her idea of adding the categories. It seems to be a bit easier, and we can only get more organized, imho.

Agreeing with Jayce. ^^' Im up for adding it; I see no reason to disagree. 16:17, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

So any other comments? 04:22, January 3, 2015 (UTC)

I like this idea, putting the images in categories themselves. --Stealthfire star (talk) 21:41, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

If there aren't any other comments, I'd like to start doing this.

Golden-brown and Ginger
Kate just posted something about how the Erins consider their colors for the cats. She says that when they're describing a cat as golden-brown, they see it as a sort of syrupy color, while ginger cats are more orange. I figure that's pretty much the standard we already follow, I just wanted to bring this up in case this could be made a more solid standard for chararts.

Here's the cite: http://erinhunter.katecary.co.uk/christmas-blogclan-tavern/comment-page-7/#comment-188027 Jayie  Unwritten words~ 22:48, December 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Prods discussion*. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 11:07, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

Are we going to look at the images of golden-brown cats and ginger cats and possibly edit their fur colours? --Stealthfire star (talk) 21:52, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, no, I don't think so. That seems like way too much of an unnecessary tweak, and unless it's absolutely needed, it shouldn't be the only thing it's nominated for.

Pale orange vs pale ginger
This is a bit random, but is pale orange too close to pale ginger? ~ Burntclaw  Yolo ♫ ♪ 12:00, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

I would say it is. 22:45, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

I don't really think it is. Orange and ginger are quite different. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 10:13, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

how? compare this to this. they look lmost exactly the same. 10:23, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

Eh, never mind. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 10:24, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

Orange and ginger are used interchangeably in the series, I've noticed. Usually, our ginger cats are orange in coloring, unless otherwise noted. Keep in mind the two shade rule here, guys.

Alt for Sorreltail?
On Dawn, Page 44, it quoted, ''A yowl startled her, and she saw white and ginger fur flashing through the undergrowth. A heartbeat later, Sorreltail and Brackenfur burst out of the bushes in front of them.'' I want your guy's opinions on this one, I'm not sure if this warrants. ~ Burntclaw  Yolo ♫ ♪ 12:23, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think it counts since we can't tell if one is being called white, one ginger, or if they're both being called ginger and white. Someone else might think differently, though.

I'm gonna say no because ginger and white fur in this case can still refer to them seperately, and they are (mostly) white and ginger. She could have seen them one after the other if you get what I'm trying to say. 12:50, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion Sorreltail should get either a white alt or a white and ginger one because she is definitely a tortoiseshell and while she has white, her description is mostly about being a tortoiseshell. Personally I'd lean towards her getting a white one as the color seem respective to their names and aren't hyphenated like they usually are in writing. Either way Sorreltail is not white and nor is she ginger, even if Brackenfur is. She should get an alt. <span style="">3:30 Thu Jan 22 2015

I agree with Raelic here.-- 03:33, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

Still disagree because we don't know which is being called which so it would still be assuming something. 03:47, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

White is part of Sorreltail's description, though. We didn't keep Wing's alt for being called gray when she's white and gray. We don't know which one is which- unless you have a transporter into the Warriors universe and can now see which one is which? It's also worth noting that Brackenfur has been called ginger before, so it's possible this is another one of those mistakes.

I think the order of the fur color would most likely be the order of the cats that came in- white for Sorreltail and ginger for Brackenfur. =/ IDK ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 07:45, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

do we know that though? no. it would be assuming and theyre just partials anyway. 07:53, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it counts, even if we get them to count, there is such a thing as ginger tortoiseshells.-- 22:31, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

Rubblepaw image?
Why is his image not on his page? I checked and his apprentice image was accepted.--Stealthfire star (talk) 09:37, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. It was reverted, and it looks like it was initially removed due to an assumption. It was then re-added as "dark colored", because of his fur being soaked black, which the only way that's gonna happen is if he was already a darker colored cat (and gray, I'd think). Whiteclaw is the same thing- he's only called a dark cat.

He should have an image. Light- or dark-colored is enough of a description to get an image off of, as seen by Sunfish. <span style="">3:34 Thu Jan 22 2015

tbh I don't think he should, he isn't automatically dark grey/black, he could be dark brown? something else? it sounds like assuming to me and sunfish only got one because she appeared in the back of CP. 07:55, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

The same logic as to what color they'd could be applied to any manga character. <span style="">16:46 Thu Jan 22 2015

then make a topic for that I don't care but this is about rubblepaw and I stick with what I said before. 22:22, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad to know you don't care but my point is that if you can give a manga character a charart based on how light or dark they are and not knowing their color then Rubblepaw and Whiteclaw should get images by the same logic. <span style="">22:32 Thu Jan 22 2015

and I don't think they should either unless they have an obvious pelt type like tabby or tortie, but beng described as dark coloured in the books isn't enough to go off of, and if we're being technical rubblepaw was never called dark in the first place, just assumed because his fur was soaked black by rain. :/ 22:41, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

So this is a PC discussion about what warrants a description then. Because with what we have right now from a PCA prospective Rubblepaw's description would qualify for a charart using the manga descriptions as a precedent. <span style="">22:49 Thu Jan 22 2015

If that's the case, this should be moved to PC, and then once that's settled, we can deal with Rubblepaw, Whiteclaw, Sunfish, ect. Since it can be called into question, it's best moving the discussion there.

Join?
<p style="border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;margin-top:0.4em;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">Can I please join this project? I like making Chararts. QBcraft (talk) 03:43, January 15, 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Sure. I'll add you in. Patch (talk) 20:37, January 15, 2015 (UTC)

Um, Brightpatch, only senior warriors and above are allowed to add in people. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 00:14, January 16, 2015 (UTC)

Okay...it's Patch...or Bright... Patch (talk) 18:17, January 16, 2015 (UTC)

This user has been blocked anyway, so no. <span style="">1:40 Sat Jan 24

Alt for Frecklewish?
Her medicine cat alt is for the manga section at the end of SkyClan's Destiny and for the After the Flood, but is shown currently as both a kittypet and a medicine cat. (Daylight Medicine cat?) does she get a kittypet alt as well? --Stealthfire star (talk) 04:56, January 17, 2015 (UTC)

Tbh, I don't think so. As she was only shown as a medicine cat in the manga? <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 11:47, January 17, 2015 (UTC)

She was only mentioned in After the Flood, never seen. We don't know if she ever became a full MC, or just a "daylight medicine cat". To give it to both ranks would be an assumption, I think. Flat out, we don't know. She was only shown as an MC, so that's what rank she got. They are not manga gaaaaah they're graphic novels

Frecklewish is living with Twolegs in the manga at the end of SkyClan's Destiny. IIRC they go to find her when Leafstar is injured. She really should get the alt. That's like saying we see a warrior at a Gathering and going "well we can't just assume they're still in RiverClan they might be WindClan now." <span style="">3:40 Thu Jan 22 2015

It's never stated even once that she's living with Twolegs. I looked, and it said she came as fast as she could after hearing the noise. That doesn't say to me "I was at home with my Twolegs", that seems like "I heard the noise and came to inspect". We can't just assume she was still a kittypet. =/

She wasn't in camp though. There's nothing to say she wasn't. Her status was daylight-warrior in SkyClan's Destiny. Nobody said "Frecklewish is no longer a daylight-warrior and lives full time with the Clan." As far as we know that has not changed, only that she received the name Frecklewish. It would be an assumption to say that she was just with the Clan now as it would mean that she was no longer a daylight-warrior. As we have no confirmation that her status of daylight-warrior has changed, she should receive both images. <span style="">16:44 Thu Jan 22 2015

I never saw anything that said she wasn't in camp, but okay. Regardless, if she gets it, she wouldn't get a collar, since she was shown without one.

Berrynose?
He was called a creamy white kit in Twilight, is creamy white the same as cream? <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 11:46, January 17, 2015 (UTC)

Creamy white would be a form of beige, which isn't very far off from his current description. So I think that would be considered as his description. <span style="">23:02 Sat Jan 17

If his description was dark cream I would add it to description but since it isn't, I think it counts as part of his description. -- 22:27, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

Alt for Bluestar?
I flipped through a Dangerous Path and she was called a silver gray cat. I'm not sure if it counts so I thought I'd check with you guys. I'll check the pg number later when I've found the book. ^^ ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 12:54, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Definitely add it to Trivia, but I'm not sure about an alt. I think it does, as it's two shades away from pale blue-gray, but you better check with other members.-- 03:37, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

Silver is different than blue, definitely. Imo it should get an alt. <span style="">3:46 Thu Jan 22 2015

Shall I add it? ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 03:59, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

Join?
May I please join this project? I enjoy seeing the Character Pixels on Character Pages, and I wish to be part of this project – YoungChamp (talk) 02:45, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

Please? – YoungChamp (talk) 04:06, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

Sure, sorry for the delay. Please make sure to have read the guidelines and be sure to consult the Apprentice Tutorials if you need them. <span style="">16:02 Sat Jan 24

Sparrowpelt
Please don't shoot me, but Sparrowpelt (麻雀毛) was called a "暗灰色虎斑公猫" in the Chinese edition of Bluestar's Prophecy, which means "dark grey tabby". Should it be at least added to his trivia? <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 01:19, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

no because this is for english warriors, not any other language. 01:20, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, never mind then. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 01:21, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

Tweak Nominations Limit
Okay, I'm gonna be simple and short here. The limit we have on the tweak nominations page is a bit too much, imho, and I really think we need to cut it down. A lot of the sections go unnoticed and they just sit for a couple weeks sometimes. So, I think we should chop the tweak nominations limit in half, since the way that it is now, it's basically giving people the chance to nominate everything and anything they wish, without any regard for what is on the page.

I definitely think it shouldn't be like it is now again, cut it down a bit, but what is the limited amount of nominations put up right now? I can't find it anywhere in the guidelines. Can we also have people go over and vote on the nominations? just so it can be cleared quicker.-- 03:13, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

It is, apparently, 50 total nominations. Right now, we have 19/20/somewhere around there when someone archives some stuff (which I can't because I'm busy). I'm gonna make it clear as daylight since this was brought up, I did not close the nominations page- that was someone else and I don't know who- I just went with it. Although given the activity level, that's way too much. This isn't the first time I've been unable to load the nominations page due to the sheer volume of it (I have a really shitty ISP, don't ask), and if people don't want to vote on other nominations besides their own, then why should we allow them to continue to nominate?

In my opinion the limit is fine. That's really not a whole lot of images for this many people. Also idk why you keep asserting that you didn't close it. It doesn't matter who closed it but it wasn't done according to the guidelines. I thought SWs were supposed to be making sure guidelines were followed as well. Either way, it was closed with about 25 images either being approved or were approved already by my count when I went through the history. That's definitely not excessive. <span style="">6:26 Fri Jan 23 2015

It's excessive when there are so many nominations that go unvoted on for well over a week (which is a lot in PCA terms) at a time, while all these new ones get posted and approved quick as a whip. Also, I'm allowed to state that I didn't close it- because I didn't. I really don't know who did it- was it even a lead to begin with????? Plus, it doesn't help that I basically had to threaten the leads with inquires to get them to do any work. So, right now, until we get that sorted out, we're running on about the power of maybe, what, two total leads? I'm frustrated that everyone's more concerned with tweaking images instead of the other parts of the project, or even the wiki as a whole.

I agree with this. Its already over-cluttered as it is; and a select few members even vote on most of them. It can get really overwhelming when you have 20+ tweaks/redos that need doing, and not enough users helping out to get them done. I'd drop it to like 25/30ish; but nonetheless, i think it does need to be reduced somehow.-- 19:48, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

So you (the deputy of PCA) does not know whats going on in PCA, even though you (the deputy of PCA) has a obligation to know the comings and goings of the project (as the deputy of PCA)? Thats reassuring. Also, this is not a problem with the guidelines then. These guidelines work when people do their jobs. The tweak nomination page has been around for, what, two-three years now and has worked excellently with efficient leads? Sounds like its the leads that are the problem not the guidelines (which work). The limit was put in place in 2012 when there were a massive number of tweaks on the page. Not 25. And that's only supposed to be approved tweaks really. We've had images sit for a couple months on the nomination page before while people were deciding their stance and their fate. The leads bumped the topic. Not a huge issue. And really? Changing the guidelines to fix a problem with the members should be a last resort. Its one thing to change them when the guidelines themselves are unclear, unfair, or inefficient, but to change them because leads are not doing their jobs is just plain lazy. <span style="">20:07 Fri Jan 23 2015

If you have a personal issue with me, bring it up elsewhere. ._. I know the guidelines. Just because I didn't see who changed the damn tweak nomination page doesn't mean I don't know what's going on. It could have very well gotten changed when I was at work. I'm sorry that I don't always check every last edit on the wiki. And I'm more than allowed to propose a change in the guidelines to fit the activity of the project. Just because you disagree does not mean you can berate me for suggesting something. All of the other leads have an obligation to know these things, and I don't see you going after them. All I'm doing is suggesting something- doesn't mean I deserve to be gone after- I'm not the lazy one here. At least I'm trying to get something done. Get off my back for a suggestion, please.

Breezy, there's no need to pin the blame on others, especially for false claims such as being 'lazy'. Sometimes there's just a massive amount of nominations that need to be processed, and the leads can't handle every single one of them at once. It's one thing to comment on something with critique, but it's another when you're attacking a lead because they aren't doing things fast enough. 20:19, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

(Damn edit conflicts) Exactly what Beebs and Snowman said. Breezy, I'd recommend watching what you say in future, because you've been a bit rude, imho. I'd also like you to know that I, as a lead, am not lazy - I've got work experience coming up, tests, and I've got too much revision and homework, as well as several other issues in my life. I've had such a packed schedule lately, and archiving nominations and being on wiki in general has been the last thing on my mind. Other leads may have school or work - they're busy. And besides, a limit would be fantastic. It would be so much easier and less stressful. 20:28, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

It is lazy. I meant that to the leads as a whole. Trying to change guidelines instead of taking your time on the wiki to do what you've been nominated to do because you don't want to is lazy plain and simple. While its 100% understandable that people have real life obligations and they come before any and all wiki matters (as they should), it is also the responsibility of the leads to realize when they cannot be online enough to do their jobs, and if they elect to continue being a lead they need to realize that they still have to perform their duties when they are online first. And, I find it rather obvious that they guidelines weren't be enforced or followed in this situation. I think we've established pretty well that it wasn't you, Cloudy, that changed the tweak nomination page. I already acknowledged that and apologized for being unclear, but yet you're still going on on how "its not my fault don't blame me I don't know what's going on" which I pointed out because I don't know if being the deputy of the project isn't knowing what's going on in the project, then what is? So I'll apologize to any ways I was unclear, but I'm not going to apologize for the intention behind my words. And I still stand by that there is a limit. It's 50 images. It works just fine. There's no need to change it. <span style="">20:59 Fri Jan 23 2015

See, the thing is... that limit was made when there were a lot more active members than there are today. We don't have anywhere near the active userbase that would warrant having such a high limit. While 50 images would have worked back when you, Wildheart, Paleh, Leggy, and the other older members were around would have been splendid, we have a totally different userbase. You aren't really active within the userbase as much as I and the other leads are. And I didn't say don't blame me- I said don't go off on just me. I am completely aware that it was changed- I was busy this afternoon and hadn't gotten a chance to do anything else about it besides propose a chance- which others seem to clearly agree with. It's not because I'm lazy (I'm nowhere near it, so you can just fullstop right there), it's because the current project userbase does not warrant it.

Looking at the history, it appears David changed it, and he had a good reason to. I agree with what Jayce has said; we're a smaller group than what the project once had, so theres really no reason to keep the limit at such a high number when users just abuse the fact and nominate pointless tweaks/redos when they really aren't necessary. Reducing it will keep the number of tweaks needing to be done smaller, and perhaps the length of time certain nominations just sit.-- 21:45, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

yes I did, and the only reason I changed it was because there was nominations just sittig there and the sheer amount was causing my page to lag, and there's no reason to keep it at 50 anyway. >.> 22:10, January 23, 2015 (UTC) You're really not that much smaller than PCA was in the few months before it was first closed at the beginning of last year. There may have been one or two more leads, but many of them were inactive as were the warriors. A userbase this size should easily be able to keep up with the archiving and be able to pass tweak nominations. Voting yay or nay on an image takes about 2 minutes out of your time. Asking users to be more active in voting and calling attention to those images would be a much better thing to do then change the guidelines. Somewhere around 25 images is not a whole lot and could easily be filled up by like five people suggesting sets of images. <span style="">22:26 Fri Jan 23 2015

and what's wrong wth that? people don't need to be constantly tweaking images anyway. ._. 22:29, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

I'd rather we have less tweaks, and I completely agree with a shorter limit. Honestly, people have other things they need to do in their lives, and I apologize for not being as active as I should be. The entire wiki is not only about PCA, and peoples lives are also not entirely about PCA. People are being way too picky about images, and that needs to stop. Black shading on white cats is not gray, its just dark, and you can clearly tell it's white by going to the character's page and check their description. Yes, shorthair tails are a pain, but not all shading styles have to be the same. Peoples standards are much too raised to day and honestly, it's killing PCA entirely. PCA's attitude has changed so much from 2013. I'm growing extremely tired of all this, and if the limit gets smaller, thank God. <span style="">1:39 Sat Jan 24

Can we discuss this without shooting at each other? I think the image limit could be reduced, however, the image limit might not stop people from being "picky". Also, isn't the whole point in PCA to improve the images as much as we can? imo there's no need to throw a big fit and cuss over all this picky over images thing, if there's a way to improve an image, then improve it. =/ <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 07:50, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

I do believe that we should reduce the limit of the amount of images on the tweak nominations. Not too much though, just about 30 or something like that. 50 is a tad too much, if you ask me. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 10:59, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, Burntclaw, the mission statement of the project says that we are to create images for every character in the Warriors series (that has a description). It is not to tweak every image we have on this wiki. Improvements are fine, but not when it's done to practically every image we have on a daily basis because people can't find anything else to do. Hell, the whole point of the wiki in general is to have a database on the series- the images are not the most important things here, the information is. If this means lowering the limit on the tweak nominations page, then so be it.

I never said the goal of PCA was to tweak every single image there is, but honestly if there's a way to improve an image, then improve it, no need to cuss over it. Also, I know that the whole point of the wiki is to add the information and not the character pixels, however, PCA is PCA, not PB and PC. PCA itself improves the images/adds images, the people in PCA are to draw, not write. PB and PC people have the responsibility to type up stuff, which they are doing right now. Nevertheless, a lot of us are trying to improve the articles while doing the images, it's pretty much human nature that a person would rather draw then type, however, many people are trying to improve the articles with little bits of info. And as for the tweak nominations limit, I agree to lower the amount to about thirty. I'm sorry if I sounded rude and explained things unclearly. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 02:17, January 25, 2015 (UTC)


 * "Also, isn't the whole point in PCA to improve the images as much as we can?"

Looks like you said it to me. "The whole point" is like saying the whole goal, which, the whole point of PCA is not to tweak every dang image we have. As David's said, we don't need to always be tweaking- it's not the main focus of the project and has only been around for like three years. Breezey, David, and I can remember a time where there wasn't a tweak page, and we had Tweak Week (technically Tweak Month, since it was a whole month), where we did all tweaking then and no other time. Also, the people in PCA are to "draw, not write"? Considering we even had a discussion to make membership (and activity) in another project qualifications for becoming a lead, I'm pretty sure that doing other things is just as important as making cat pixels. Also, it's not human nature. I enjoy writing the articles a bit more than I do art-but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy PCA.

Guys, this isn't an argument about if character pixels are more important or whatever. If everybody agrees on lowering the limit. Then lets start. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 03:37, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

I admit to myself that I'd much rather draw than write, and as would a lot of people. I apologize if I sounded rude or stupid above, today isn't one of my good days -_-. However, Like Foxy just said, we aren't discussing what's improtant or not, we're discussing about the limits of the nominations, which I agree to lower. =/ <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 03:45, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

You know reintroducing tweak weak came up awhile back. I mean I was against it then, but it could be a solution to a lack of activity if you are hellbent on insisting that the leads have too much to do. <span style="">4:09 Mon Jan 26 2015

Here is the discussion if anyone wants to read it. <span style="">4:14 Mon Jan 26 2015

Okay so bring the limit down to like 25 or something, but honestly if we don't have that many active users anymore(which I was around when there were) then I don't see a huge point to lowering the limit. We never get higher than 10 tweak nominations at a time, at least when I check. So if someone is being nitpicky and taking advantage on the 50 nomination limit, just vote nay. It hasn't killed anyone yet to do something that takes 12 seconds. I think we're all throwing daggers at each others backs over a small thing..no need to go to war. So we lower it, or we don't. I'm honestly kind of neutral on this one, but to keep the peace around here, I'll go with anything. 20:51, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

Graphic Novel Cats
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but here goes. I noticed that the character pixels Duke, (graphic novel only character) looks nothing like how he is portrayed in the Lost Warrior (the only book he appears in). I was wondering does it have to be the same? I think it makes sense since he only appears in graphic novel. I think this is great art, but it doesn't really match is all.

I'm talking of cats that appear in graphic novels only, I'm not going to go on about changing Graystripe and Millie, their fine. -- 07:50, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

This would be a PCA discussion, wouldn't it? <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 07:53, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this is a PCA discussion. And to my knowledge, matching a graphic novel picture isn't mandatory... I believe it's up the artist.

Idk if you want to match the image totally then sure, but otherwise it'd really seem like a lot of uncessary tweaking, and as long as the image matches the description, does it really matter? 10:58, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

It shouldn't have to match... like Skt said, it's unnecessary tweaking, and, you know, not everyone has all the graphic novels. I myself only have Sasha's arc and the Rise of Scourge - say someone tries to match an image to a graphic novel's, what if they can't, when they don't have the book? Besides, there are some pretty gorgeous chararts on here that don't match their graphic novel look - it would be a shame to change them. 12:41, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

They shouldn't have to match. They're fine the way they are, tbh. Alts shouldn't be out of the question, but it'd be a lot of unnecessary hard work trying to make it match the graphic novel exactly. I don't have any of the graphic novels, so you have to keep that in mind as well. <span style="">14:47 Sun Jan 25

I disagree with redoing all those cats to match the alts. They look fine and I doubt they have to match perfectly, and as Sorrel said, a lot of us don't own any mangas. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 00:19, January 26, 2015 (UTC) Agreeing with the above..I own all of the graphic novels, but I think if we redid/tweaked all the images to match, it wouldn't be unique. Honestly, as Sorrel said, there are gorgeous chararts on here, that if we had to tweak them, it just wouldn't be the same. It is just unnecessary, and it'd be a lot of work, and most artists would be working blind...and no one likes to work blind on something so delicate. Thanks for bringing this up though, I had wondered about it before as well, but it would be difficult for the whole project. 17:40, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

Characters needing art
I just joined this project, and I'd like to make a cat, but I checked under the Characters needing art page and there were no cats available. Could someone please tell me a cat that I can create a Charart for?

Thank you – YoungChamp (talk) 05:27, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Err, there is characters needing art on that list. I count four of them. -- 05:32, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I think they updated it and I didn't check. Sorry! – YoungChamp (talk) 05:38, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

That's okay. :) I suggest you try something simple, like Mitzi or Screech. They are just black cats, but Screech doesn't need the mud like his other images. -- 05:44, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Inactivity in the Leads
Okay so I'm going to be completely honest and say this has been a problem for the past couple of weeks, and even further in the past we've had this problem. If you disagree, you may share your thoughts openly, you won't offend me.

So, images have been being put up, commented on, soon they get better and better, and then when they're ready to be CBA'd, no one is there to CBA, so they sit there for days, and that turns to weeks. Or even to archive an image that passed CBA, no one is around. It seems like Skye is the only lead currently working on this project. An image went 2 weeks over the limit of allowed inactivity and no one was around to decline it(I know that several users noticed this image). And a CBA lasted 3 days before being archived. I brought this up with Skye first to confirm, they agreed, and now it's out here. Pretty much all of the current leads we have, no offense to any of them of course, are seeming to be inactive. This is completely open to discussion, and it's open for ideas on what to do about it. 17:19, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

I've already told Skye my reason for not being here. I've been too busy, and I've been feeling utterly depressed for weeks and I don't know why. I just don't have time to be incredibly active right now - when my mood swing is over, I'll be back. I was active a few days ago, but then I got more work to do. I'll snap out of my mood soon enough, just not right now. 17:42, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

It's the midterms and end-of-term stuff for me so I'm literally trying to get by. Plus I legit don't notice images sitting around sometimes (I do so many things at once, y'know?) and I apologize for that ;; 19:03, January 28, 2015

Icicle sat for around 4-5 days without comments. (ill be uploading again when i get home btw) I've been seeing images go for several days without comments or a CBA. Leads should get their activity up. I haven't seen them comment on images hardly at all, and honestly, it's just the same few people commenting on images. The project isn't just about making art, it's about critiquing and giving others advice on their art as well. In orchestra, every time we have a concert, we write a critique on how well we think we did and what we could have done differently. That same thing goes with art, too. But, I digress. I understand if you have real life obligations, but we need people that can do lead things. <span style="">19:11 Wed Jan 28

Gia, you just gave me a wonderful idea. Why don't we try something like that with PCA? I'm not talking the art skills, because that's what the approval page is for, but perhaps how we handle things and how we perform? Say, every other month or so, we could have a small discussion, find out things we did well for those few weeks, and find out some things we need to improve on? And then after that, once the discussion is over, we try and improve on those things until the next time comes around?

I think that sounds like a lovely idea. I vote yay if everyone wants to do it, I think it'd help everyone's skills improve, in their strong points and weak points. And you guys are fine, I do understand that stuff is coming around. I'm just a bit worried for the other users, and how they kind of are held back from doing more images, or they get bored after 5 days of no comments. 20:21, January 28, 2015 (UTC)