Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Would this count?
Would Skywatcher get an apprentice pixil? Pricklenose is listed as his mentor and he was taught SkyClan ways. I honestly think that should count for something, as he was taught how to hunt and ect. I will understand if you guys disagree but I thought I'd ask before it getting posted and then potentially declined. 22:53, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think he should. We've got apprentice chararts for cats that have been said like that before, so I agree. 23:12, 24, 02, 2012

Yes, I believe he would qualify for one. ^^  00:21, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason why not. Take Millie as an example. She's listed as Graystripe's unofficial apprentice. That doesn't stop her from being and apprentice, even if she wasn't quite aware of it. 03:48, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Using this proposed logic: Sharpclaw, Millie, etc. would get an apprentice pixel, basically, any cat who was taught basic "life skills" would qualify, though I think it should represent the Clan rank (unless the queen rank qualifications come into play). 16:58, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. He shouldn't get one because he wasn't part of a Clan. Apprentice, unlike kit or queen, is a rank, and only members of a Clan would get the apprentice charart. 17:25, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. We've pushed it far enough with the kits and the queens. Apprentice, warrior, leader etc are all Clan ranks only. If you went by the logic, Barley and Ravenpaw would get warrior chararts for what happened in the comics when they helped ThunderClan, despite the fact that they were still loners at the time. I say no, definitely no. Skywatcher was not part of any Clan, he was just being taught how to survive by his mother's friend. 20:20, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Everything's already been stated above.^^ 09:49, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

Then by that logic, he should have no mentor listed :/  20:15, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

She was still his mentor, in a sense. But, since SkyClan wasn't really around....you could hardly call him an apprentice. 20:17, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm... well, what is a mentor and what is an apprentice is different. If we were to have mentor blanks, all those with unofficial apprentices would probally get one, but yes, if we're going by logic, Scourge and Willie would get a leader blank, Bone a deputy, and all that. 09:22, 28, 02, 2012

Repeat of the Past
Since we're redoing or tweaking the Rogue blanks, I don't think that we should do anymore work with the rogues until the blanks are finalized. Those Rogue chararts that are being worked on and reserved before this moment may stay, but like the apprentice blanks, I feel that the others that need work should just be left until the blanks are ready, otherwise it'd just be a wasted effort. Thoughts? 02:33, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. 02:37, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

There's no opposition from me. Wasted effort is useless. xD 05:48, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

I agree 100%. 09:24, 28, 02, 2012

Agreeing. 20:21, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

SW Nominations
'kay guys, I'm here with another suggestion. As you all know, Twi's currently got a SW nomination up, and it ends March 8th. I'm in no way, shape or form trying to deny future leads of their spots, but, I'd like to propose the SW nominations be closed after Twi's nomination ends. I mean, we have fifteen, possibly sixteen senior warriors, and an excellent leader and deputy that lead us well. Do we really need anymore then we already have? I'm not saying that no one else is worthy of a lead spot, but, that we have more then enough right now to keep the project running and stable.

So, comments? I propose closing the SW nominations until...hmm...maybe April? May, perhaps, depending on what happens with the current leads we have. 05:28, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

April's only like a month away. I'm thinking June maybe because by the summer people might have more time to work. I don't know. 05:39 Tue Feb 28 05:39, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

June would be good too. With most of the members here still in high school (middle school for some of the younger ones), it's a lot harder for them to get on, due to school work and all the fun stuff you can group together with being a teenager. 05:49, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

June sounds good. I do agree we have plenty senior warriors, even though it's a bit unfair to those who really deserve it. 05:59, 28, 02, 2012

I agree. I also think that we should improve upon the grounds that we nominate our SWs for. Though I cannot deny that any of our SWs haven't earned their spot, I think that the SW rank is starting to been seen as an "inner PCA circle" which seems all high and mighty. I read somewhere that a SW rank is given to a user who needs to head a certain aspect of a project like Cloudy and the Mentoring Program.

Though this might sound kinda dumb, but, in the future, I think we should put a limit on the number of SW's so when a SW steps down or leaves the project, their spot can be filled by an appropriate runner-up. And right now, SW rank just feels like a step up from a warrior rank by saying "oh, you did really well at X, Y, or Z". I dunno, this idea's just been bothering me for a bit lately. Thoughts? 22:09, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea! Kinda like how there's only a certain amount of admin and rollbacker spots and such, so things don't get too out of hand. It think that'd be great! 8D 23:50, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah! I think that's a good idea. What do you think the limit would be around? Just curious, though it might be too early to ask. :3 03:49, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea too. I think the limit could be 18 sm's. 07:32, 29, 02, 2012

18? DJ, I think we're good with the ones we have now. I don't think we need more. *if I'm understanding you correctly...* 07:33, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking about making the limit 10. How we get it down to that level is yet to be seen, but we can work that out later. Kitsu said that SW's should represent talented artists with a leader's trust that can represent a strong leadership in the project. Now, before accusations begin to fly, let me say that I trust EVERYONE in PCA. Everyone works hard and is worthy of trust. But 15 SWs and growing? That just seems a bit extreme to me. Though every SW does their jobs from time to time, I've only seen a good handful of members archive and all on a regular basis (I've been a bit inactive in this department too.... Gomenasai ) But yes, after Twi's nomination closes, I think SW nominations should close while we sort this aspect of the project out. Thoughts? 15:18, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Accusations? Scarlet, what on Earth are you talking about? There's no reason to be paranoid and distrust the members of this project... Do you really feel that way about us? I trust every member of this project and I don't think that taking away the rights of the recently elected senior warriors would help at all. Having these extras means that even when some of us go inactive, the project continues as smoothly as ever. Yeah, close it after Twi's election, but I don't think that lowering the number of senior warriors will be anything but counter-intuitive. 15:23, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I'm just going to say a few things on this subject... First off... A hard, numerical limit isn't the way to go. Your project is big. and your number of senior warriors must reflect that. Your target should be between a quarter and a third of the project members (IE: 1 Senior Warriors for every 3 apprentice/warrior project members). This puts you guys about where you should be... Senior Warriors, however, should not have the project leader's trust alone. They need the project's trust, and the leader should be able to trust the judgement of the project when they create a Senior (IE: If the project votes them in, what reason does the project leader have not to trust the project population?). Frankly, Scarlet, don't forget that you're a figurehead with a few jobs. Like the Queen of England. You don't make the laws, you just represent something for the project and provide certain bits of guidance for it. But in the end, you're still just a member of the project. 17:42, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, put it like this maybe. (Example: Each member of the project has a right to make art and be free to participate in discussions, and critique on art. Not every member of PCA has the right to be a leader and lead the project.) We should clarify these rights and find the differences between all the different project ranks. So far, from what I've seen, these are the current rights for Warrior+:

Warrior
 * Critique on art
 * Participate in discussions
 * Participate in project votes
 * Create Original Artwork For Approval
 * Create Tweak and Redo's For Approval
 * If a charart is Withdrawn, they may take over
 * Withdraw images
 * Take part in project meetings
 * Work to become a senior warrior by earning the projects respect and trust, and by fitting into the requirements

Lead


 * Critique on art
 * Participate in discussions
 * Participate in project votes
 * Create Original Artwork For Approval
 * Create Tweak and Redo's For Approval
 * If a charart is Withdrawn, they may take over
 * Withdraw images
 * Archive old discussions
 * Set up project votes
 * Approve and Decline artwork
 * Take part in lead meetings
 * Take part in project meetings
 * Set up project/lead meetings
 * Work to become the deputy/leader once the deputy/leader succeeds the leader or steps down/becomes inactive, by earning the leaders respect and trust
 * Be a leader and rolemodel to other members of the project

As you can see, there is a huge jump from Warrior to Senior Warrior, even though it's just one rank move up. There should be a difference between the Senior Warriors, Deputy and Leader, right now, they basically all do the same thing. If anything, I think we need another rank, for the (no offence) less experienced Sw's. Their rights could be the same as the Warriors, except their rank posistion could be on the main page, so new users could come to them if they have questions, and they can take part in lead meetings and make descisions for the project, that way they don't seem all mighty with so much power. There are SW's that really deserve their posistion, and have the experience needed, but this is just my 2 cents. 05:50, 02, 03, 2012

Yes, there should be a noticeable difference between SW/Deputy/Leader, but I don't think we need another rank. We have enough. 18:49, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Given that Lead and project meetings shouldn't be happening (all important discussions should use either the forum or this talk page), you can scratch those right off the list. Everyone should be a Leader and Role-modle for the project (the project should be running things, not the "leads"), so there's another one that belongs on both parts. Given that all rules changes/proposals should be discussed and voted on by all, they don't have to be limited to the "leads" group. That would be stupid and keep a group of perfectly good minds out of the process. That leaves... Gosh... Just "Approve art", "Archive discussions" and "Setup Votes". Looks to me like Senior Warriors are mostly just members who've been given administrative duties for the project. I don't see why there needs to be Senior-Senior Warriors and Senior Warriors to handle that. You all seem to have an overinflated idea of the importance of Senior Warriors. 18:55, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Kit on this. SWs are members of the project with a lot of experience with chararts and critique, so they are given the rights to decline/approve/CBA images due to their experience. I mean, they're not to have the power to control the project, but just some administrative duties, as Kit said.

Also, for these "lead meetings," SWs invite other SWs to go on the PCA IRC and discuss. It shouldn't be like that. Every user has the right to participate in these discussions, so then that would mean that there shouldn't be lead meetings, but project discussions on a forum or so. 19:08, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I know I'm against the idea of any meetings at all. All new ideas should be discussed on the talk page or on a forum, where it can be looked back on at anytime. I'm not sure what to do about the number of SW's though, I mean, we do have a lot, but not one of them don't deserve it. 00:27, 03, 03, 2012

Dont-vote section in Membership nominations?
Okay, I suggest that on the different Memberships Nominations, we add a Don't Vote section to the current sections, Supporting, Against and Comments. Like how we have a dontvote template for votes, we could have another section here. As most of you have seen in Twi's nomination, a few people decided to not vote. Instead of clogging up the Comments section, and not making members suspicious about becoming inactive/not being truly dedicated for not voting, I mean, some members just don't want to vote on MN's, and some can't choose. Feel free to shoot this idea down, I understand, but this is my idea. 09:45, 28, 02, 2012

Seems unnecessary. If you don't want to vote you needent put anything in the nomination and can simply ignore it. 13:00, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. ^^ Just curious. 07:45, 29, 02, 2012

Frankly, I hate the "sectioned" style of voting that's used in this project because it does not offer an abstain option. Just as with voting for and against, an abstain should be able to file their vote as they intend: Clearing stating that they are indifferent and have the right to record their vote as they desire. We have templates, and our project leadership can count. Why aren't proper voting templates being employed? 16:23, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking that Kit, but seeing as the setup we already have seems pretty organised, I don't want to really stuff it up. It sounds good, seeing as we have many options to use on voting, but of course, we'll need other opinions from members in the project. 05:32, 01, 03, 2012

Tweaks
Okay guys, just a quick note about reserving tweaks. I was looking on the tweak nominations page, and I saw that one image I wanted to do needed to be redone and was not struck off the list. (For those of you who don't know - you should - when an image is struck off the list it means it is reserved.) So I went and reserved it. Then, upon closer look at the reservations chart, I realized someone else had reserved it, and had forgotten to strike it off the list. This is irksome and causes unnecessary conflict edits. I suppose it's partly my own fault for not checking the reservations table (you know, Ctrl + F) but the whole point of striking images off the list is to avoid having to check the reservations table. While I was checking the reservations table, I also noticed that one image had been reserved by three separate people. This is one of the reasons you should (unlike silly old me) Ctrl + F the mainpage to see that the image you want hasn't already been reserved.

Tl; dr: Strike stuff off the tweak noms page when you reserve it, and search the reservations page before you reserve an image. Thanks for reading, guys. 03:01 Wed Feb 29

I thought we struck out the stuff that was already for approval? It makes sense, because you can change a reservation at any time without withdrawing it. One person forgets to unstrike the tweak, and we get an image that never gets done because everyone assumes it's reserved. 04:55, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, as Loonie said, it is easy to forgot to strike and unstrike tweaks. I know I go through the tweak nominations page at times, and strike chararts that are already being tweaked/redone. But yes, we need to make sure we only reserve chararts that aren't already reserved. 08:00, 29, 02, 2012

@Loonie: Nope, the whole point of striking out the tweaks was for reserving them. It's just as easy to forget to unstrike the tweak as it is to forget to strike it, and it causes just as many problems. If a tweak sits there a bit longer than it should - well, what's the harm in that? Besides, people shouldn't be reserving and un-reserving images very commonly - if it doesn't happen very often, then you'll probably remember the only thing you need to do when you un-reserve a tweak is to unstrike it. 02:37 Thu Mar 1

This Needs To Stop
I've been talking with a few other leads in PCA, and we've all come to the same conclusion: PCA has really lost its 'touch', so to say. A few of us (including me) have even been considering leaving the project.

My first reason for leaving PCA could really sum up the whole thing: it's not enjoyable anymore. We've been getting too picky. Tabby styles were the artist's choice, and realism wasn't really thought of. I hate hearing this one topic brought up constantly, but it needs to be addressed: Warriors isn't realistic. Back when I first joined (that makes me sound old) not everyone who could make pretty artwork was made a SW. I don't have anything against any of our current leads, and I believe they're doing an amazing job, but, look. Back then, we have about five SWs at the most. It used to be a rank only given to the most respected members of the project, who had been here for a while and were trusted by almost everyone. Now, we have sixteen. Honestly, I doubt we need sixteen SWs to manage the people in this project.

Second, the eternal tweak week has been bugging me. Seeing my images redone a month or two after it was approved make me feel bad.

^^I'd type more at the moment, but my parents are nagging me to get off. Anyoen who wants to can continue. 04:50, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I was against the "realism" thing at first (but only really for things we assumed, like Birdsong) but with the tabby styles it's completely understandable. Some of those tabbies were... let's face it, bad. I really do think they need to be redone. As for the senior warriors, this project did used to be a lot smaller. But now with the new users - and the full-time tweak week, which requires more leads - more senior warriors are in fact necessary. 04:53, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

As for the senior warriors, every senior warrior goes through a vote. If you had a problem with the idea of expanding the rank, you had every chance to stop it by voting against them. 04:56, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

As a few who were on chat know, I'm one of the ones who agrees completely with this, and has been considering leaving because of it. Something has to change. Enough of the SWs agree that it shows this is just not working. The main thing that I want to happen is for us to get rid of the tweak page. It was good for a while, but it's getting out of hand now. I think we should go back to tweak week, if nothing else just have it more often. And not be so picky about chararts being perfectly realistic. Tabbies like what Speckletail and Bumblestripe used to be are one thing, but what's getting redone now it's very unrealistic, and most are recently approved. There's no reason to redo perfectly good images and I've had enough of it. I had more to say, but honestly, I forgot what it was. So I'll post whenever I remember, but this is my take on all of this for now. (enough with the edit conflicts) 04:57, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I...totally agree with Leggy. We've become picky...Art. Are there mistakes in art? No. Could art be bad? No. Everyone is an artist in someway, but only different ways. Everybody has a different point of veiw--meaning that something to someone is bad, and that thing to someone else is good. Blurring shading, earpink, tabby style...ect. We're too picky about that, because for what I know, this is a project for providing character articles with art, and art cannot be improper, because it's something that we imagine, create, and feel, not judge and dislike.

We cannot be perfect, no matter how hard we try, we're humans, and that's how we will always be.

Abstracts...They are art, and something with no clear picture, but it's still art--a peice of imagination of one, not a math test to be judged by another.

Also...If it makes PCA more enjoyable, I would happily give away my position, PCA's goal is to provide art, and these ranks are more...kinda, "extra."

I tried explaining it as good as possible, and I hope everyone understands my main message to PCA. 05:01, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

You know what, you guys? If you find PCA to be unenjoyable in some way, make the proposals, just like I always have when I've thought of something that might help this project. Go through the process, get votes, and get it done. No use sitting and talking it to death. Just go do it. 05:10, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I definitely agree that PCA should... change (if that's the right word). And I couldn't agree more with Shelly, that the project can't change itself. Starting now I'm going to try to put in my real opinion in more to what I really think, if that makes any sense. And agreeing with Stoney also, if it would make our PCA members more happy I'd gladly give away my position. Being able to put up art is good enough for me. 05:17, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think PCA could do with some change as well. I think that the "realism" applies to some images (like the ones where the stripes don't even look like stripes), and such, but we need to tone that down, in my opinion. But about the "eternal tweak week" thing, I don't think it's that big of a problem. True, some of the images are fine, but some of the really old ones need fixed up. (e.g. blurred lineart, really messy shading/highlights, that sort of thing). That's all I have to say. Sorry if I'm babbling. 14:22, February 29, 2012 (UTC) Shadewing

Okay, I feel I must put forth my own words here, as I always do.

On the number of senior warriors:

We shouldn't limit the number of senior warriors to a digit. It needs to be a percentage. When I made the proposal to expand the rank, I said we needed either 1/4th or 1/3rd of the project to be senior warriors. The size of the project requires it, because not all of the senior warriors can always be present. Have this many senior warriors means that I, personally, feel secure enough that I can actually use my spring break next week to take a break and I can trust that this project will run fine without me here. Yes, we should close senior warrior nominations until the project expands itself again, but no, we should not decrease the percentage of senior warriors we have.

On the eternal tweak week:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with improvement or wanting to put forth the best images we can. How recently an image was completed should not play a factor in it. In fact, we shouldn't even have to be citing OA's when tweaking or redoing an image. The moment an image is approved by the project, it ceases to be the property of the artist and becomes the property of the project. Should four members of the project believe that the image needs tweaking or redoing (one to propose it, three to vote) then that's that and no whining about it.

I do find this project fun, though it isn't here to be fun. It's here to make the best, most accurate chararts it can in order to portray the characters for those visiting this website. And if we can improve upon the chararts that have already been made, then that's what we shold do.

So that's my opinion. I'm against decreasing the senior warrior rank and I'm against any change to the tweak page. Wildheart's system is working to filter out chararts that are proposed for redo solely based on a single person's opinion. I find nothing to complain about and I find the project to be working well. If you guys want to change something, propose it. If you guys jsut want to leave if people don't agree with you, that's your choice. You'll be missed, of course, but no one will force you to stick around when you don't like the project anymore. 19:10, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... I do have to agree. But Shelly, I thought the purpose of wikis was to have fun and share information?

Oh well, this is only a website. Nothing to stress ourselves about. 23:53, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I never said it wasn't. But that's not the central purpose of thise project. Yeah, have fun, but get our job done first and foremost. 23:56, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. 01:53, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Ah yes, Shelly, good to know we're on the exact same side here. I feel there's nothing wrong with the tweak process, and I'll admit that, yeah, I do enjoy it. I'm pretty neutral on the whole "senior warriors" thing though; it doesn't really matter to me how many leads we have. 04:21, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I see nothing wrong with the project personally, but I'm not a lead and haven't experienced SM duties in this project before. As for the eternal tweak week, there are chararts that need tweaking. I know I wasn't here when there was Tweak week, but I don't know why and how it worked. There are still so many images needing to be tweaked, it wouldn't be right if we just cut it off. As for the number of senior warriors, as Shelly said, there needs to be a percentage of SW's, not a digit. We need enough to look after project at all times, and at all corners. After Twi's nomination, as we said, we'd close the SW nominations. Then it'd be enough. 06:03, 01, 03, 2012

Mapleshade
Eh...dunno if it'll count, but d'you reckon that this woukd count for a tweak to add a mane like Lionheart's or something? "She faced him, her thick pelt like a mane around her neck." CP, page 117. Opinions? c: Sky Promises, promises 05:02, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm.. I'm not sure either. I think she might get one, but since it has "like a mane", than it might not. 05:18, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think it just meant she had thick fur in general, which she already is since she's in the longhair blank. I dunno, maybe not 05:21, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, for Lionheart, it specifically says that he has thick fur around his neck like a lion's mane. If it doesn't say, it could be that her fur is just ruffled. Like a mane is pretty vague. 05:28 Wed Feb 29

If it does happen, I'd advise not going for a full blown thing like Lionheart has. Maybe just a bit of a ruff around her neck, or you can even add shadow lines to make it look like the for their if puffing out. I'm thinking it'd mostly look like Lionblaze's ruff on the cover of The Forgotten Warrior. 15:02, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Shelly, not to go with a full blow. I think it should have a slight tweak. 00:32, 03, 03, 2012

Important Notice
Hey guys. Just putting up here the same thing I put on PC's talk page, since it applies here as well at least in terms of descriptions. In fact, I'll just quote myself since I'm lazy.

"I was just going through some articles and I checked Dustpelt's page, seeing that there was a missing citation. I decided, on a whim, to go through and check the other citations to make sure they matched up with the books.

Only one out of six was factual. The rest were fabricated.

This got me paranoid about the citations on the descriptions of every other character page. ... I know it's a big thing to do, but I think the project needs to start the process of going through all of the character pages and checking to validate citations. I'm sorry, it's a big task, but it needs to be done. Withthe whole of the project working on it, it shouldn't be too hard."

Since I posted this, even more characters were found to have false cites in their descriptions. This effects our project since we revolve around these descriptions. From here on, I'd like to ask that my fellow senior warriors and everyone else that is able to do so check the citations of the characters they go to do chararts for.

We recently found that Kate Cary comes to this site herself when she forgets a point in a characters history or appearance. We need to provide the most factual pages we can because, frankly, her saying that Dovewing's eyes were gold was probably our fault. (don't go into that argument here, it's over)

My point is that PCA should be helping out with this as well since it'll mean that less chararts will need to be redone over time when we find that descriptions have been falsified. Just check the cites before you make the charart, if you can. If not, ask a friend to do so at least.

And that's my two cents. Not a proposal or a suggestion, just a request really. 06:18, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. We could maybe have some sort of patrolling system for this...? Anyway's I'd be willing to help out with checking cites. 06:29, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with this as well. 14:18, February 29, 2012 (UTC) Shadewing

Yeah, I also agree. I'll look over when I can. 15:05, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, I'll check when I can. 20:13, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. <span style="">06:11, 01, 03, 2012

With this too. If Kate Cary comes to the Wiki, we can't have any fabrication. This means, that this site holds information that must be careful not to falsify, because, like Shelly said, we may be responsible for another error in the series. 00:09, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Another Sol question
Upon looking at Sol's images, I noticed that the rogue and loner match each other, and the warrior and kittypet match each other (the kit could pass for either set) but the two sets don't match. The loner/rogue looks much darker than the kittypet/warrior. One set should be tweaked to match the other but which one do we decide to use for his "base look"? 07:06, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, the rogue and loner. He's described as brown and black patched with white (as far as I know anyway) and the loner and rogue suit that more. c: *Waits to be shot* <font face="Arial" size="1" color="Blue" >Sky Seedlit Proxy 08:20, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with Sky. I say we tweak the kittypet/warrior. 04:06, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree we should tweak the kittypet and warrior, and leave the loner and rogue as they are. <span style="">00:24, 04, 03, 2012

By Popular Demand
Because in the last two days I have been accused of ruining the project, acting like I'm in charge of it, of redoing chararts based solely on my own preferences and running out Icestorm in what way, and because apparently I've driven certain senior members to the point that they feel like she need to resign and because I've just had my position as senior warrior threatened for having dared make changes that I believe have improved this project, I am leaving PCA and shall be finding better ways to contribute to this wiki.

I'm sorry for everything. If you guys want to revert PCA back to the way it was, fine by me. I'm sorry to be leaving a project I've loved so much that I've put forth so much effort to try to help it. I'll be around the wiki doing my job as rollbacker and chatmod.

Elorisa can take over Whispering Breeze since she reserved it before me and just gave it to me. 02:52, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not happy with this. Shelly, you had amazing ideas, and you bettered this project tenfold with your contributions. If you want to leave, it's your choice, but I find it disgusting that you've been accused so much you felt you had to leave. 03:12, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Shelly, I am sticking by with what I told you on the chat last night and I don't feel that this is necessary. As much as I want to change your mind, I can't force you to do anything, but I really think you should come back to the project at some point. Good luck with your endeavours, however. 03:15, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well I said everything I have to say to you in chat, and since I can't change your mind about leaving, I'll just say bye. So bye! You'll be missed by the whole project, regardless of what you may think. 04:47, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I said I was sorry to you on Skype, and I'll say it again on here where everyone can see it. When I called that meeting, I didn't mean for it to turn out how it did. For that, I am extremely sorry. Know I'm being honest when I say this. If you don't believe me, then fine. That's your choice, and I'll respect you for it. None of us wanted you to leave, and I was upset, knowing this is partially (if not mostly) my fault. We confronted you, and we now face the consequences of our actions.

I may not be able to speak for Icestorm, or any of the other users present in that IRC room at that present moment, but, I do regret ever suggesting that meeting, and I regret even more having driven away such a well-respected member of this project. If you don't want to come back after this, then I respect your choice. If you choose to come back to PCA after this has settled, then I'd be honored to have you back as a fellow senior warrior.

I'm sorry again. I really am. I know now the consequences of my actions, and I only wish I'd have realized this sooner. 05:12, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Shelly, I'm awefully sorry about what happened. More than I can say. But always know that you will always have a place in PCA. I respect your choice, though if you ever decide to come back, like Cloudy said, I'd definitely be honored to have you beside me again. No matter what, we'll always be denmates. <3 05:26, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Shelly, you have helped this project in many ways, more than I can count. Your artwork is beautiful, and you are a great rolemodel for me and other users. May StarClan light your path, you'll be missed here. <span style="">05:45, 02, 03, 2012

I've already said as much as I could squeeze out back in the chat, but I'd say it again, if it may change your mind to stay. I've seen, despite not being in the project, how your arrival has shaped and changed PCA. You're a truly respected member of this project, and I'll say that it would not be fun, for any of us, to see you go. If you decide to leave Project Charart forever, you will truly be missed, and it's impossible to think I'm the only one who believes that. If you'll return, at any point, I'm positive everybody would be overjoyed. But, at the end of the day, it's your decision as to whether or not you leave and come back to this project. May StarClan guide your path, Shelly. 09:37, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Shelly, I'll miss you D':. If you ever want to come back, you'll be sure to have a place in PCA <3 -- Weylon  '''Distinctly Unique. 15:32, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I've said this privately to a few members, but I feel like saying it in public now: The stupid IRC Channel is more trouble than the chat that's actually on the wiki. No running of this project (or any other project) should be happening through the IRC or the Wiki's chat. It's exclusionary and a very bad thing. Anything official needs to go through the whole nine yards (Pre-discussion, Full Proposal, Final Discussion, Vote) before anything can go into action. This entire issue appears to be a discussion that should have happened getting out of hand and turning into something it had no right to be. The running of this project shouldn't be getting conducted by a cabal in a chatroom: It should be run like it has (in the way Shelly made all her changes) - out in public and at the hands of the project as a whole. Anyways: Keep your project business out in public where it belongs. No more IRC meetings to handle issues. Handle them properly, like Wikians, on the wiki. 18:23, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Bye Shelly. Your art is beautiful, and everyone will miss you. ♫Purplemoon♪  I'm going skiing! In Colorado :3  20:37, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Noo..I am so sad to see you do this. You were a great addition to the project you helped us in many ways. You were my mentor and I am truly grateful for what you have taught me. We can all see how much you loved this project and just wanted the best for it. You achieved so much in such little time. I know I can't change your mind, since you seem very set on your decision, but just know if you ever come back, there will be a place waiting for you. 23:22, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

By popular demand? Shelly, I'm pretty sure the popular demand is that you stay. I obviously missed something, but I don't think you act like you're in charge or you're ruining the project. Rather, I admire your straightforwardness. I don't see how you've hurt the project at all, but you've sure helped it a lot. But it's your choice as to whether or not you want to leave, and I honestly don't blame you if you feel that way. Breeze whisker  01:50, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

o.o I'm really sad your leaving. I don't think what whoever said is true, no offence to either of you. Your art is truly fantastic and I hate to see you go. You've done a great deal for the project, and I thank you for that :). And on what Kitsu said, I agree with. We shouldn't use the chat or IRC for project meetings. <span style="">13:12 Sat Mar 3

Shelly, I hope you can change your mind on this.. You put a lot of heart and soul into this project, and I would hate to see all of it just vanish after this. But, I understand your decision, and respect it. But please, if you ever want to come back, PCA will welcome you with open arms. :) You are a fantastic artist, not just with chararts, and a great user in general. It really does hurt to see you leave, but good-bye for now.  22:10, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Look, everyone... (logs in through her phone to do this, not an easy feat) I appreciate everything you're saying. I really do. I feel thoroughly loved here. But I need some time off after what happened. It's not fun having your friends do that to you. I need a month or so. If I'm feeling better about the project by that time, I'll rejoin as a warrior and re-earn my place as senior warrior. Until then, I'll be in PC making Atelda's life hell and around the wiki in general. Might poke my nose in to state an opinion once in a while. So, be good. Play nice with the other kids unless they throw the first punch, in which case make sure you win the fight. I'll be back... with weapons. 02:06, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Shelly, I've already said how sorry I am about what happened. I'll anxiously await your return. And don't worry about re-earning your rank. If you earned it once, you'll return as one. All the best. May StarClan light your path. 02:15, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Shelly, don't demean yourself; you're an amazing user, and I really wish you would stay. But, this is your choice. I hope to see you around once again. 05:50, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

I barely know you Shelly, but I know what you've done for this project, and all I can say is that few users could have done more than you have. You have made amazing art, been active through your entire time here, and all of your ideas were to benefit this project. Whoever said those things about you should be ashamed. But this is indeed your choice. Goodbye, and may StarClan light your path. 15:32, March 6, 2012 (UTC) Shadewing

Just gonna take a break for a while....
I feel really guilty for choosing now to do this, but I'm gonna take a short wiki break. A week or two. There's some stuff going on (no, I'm not pointing to anything in particular, just stuff) that's causing me major stress, which is causing issues in real life, and I just can't let that happen. I'm sorry, I feel like I'm abandoning you, but it'll only be for a bit, so see you guys soon. *waves* I'll keep working on Runningnose, but I won't really be on otherwise. 04:46, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I don't blame you, Paleh. I understand, enjoy your breather :) 04:48, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think we all need breaks after this. Enjoy it, and may you come back level-headed. 05:04, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Mmhmm, Cloudy. ^ Have a good break. :) 05:23, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

See you for now Paleh! Have a good break, and hope you come back feeling fresh. <span style="">05:43, 02, 03, 2012

Limit
I hope it's just not me but the limit on the Charart for Approval page is waaayy to much. I mean it's forty, but there's less than ten Chararts up right now! I just think the limit should go down because there's no special reason like a new blank or a new book with lots of Characters. I just think that a lead should change it back to 25. Thoughts? Sandy   I think   Daddy's   my slave!  20:10, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's fine to go back to the original limit. Even though we'll be doing rogues, there isn't too many rogues, and wasn't the original limit 30 images? *cough*It's been a long time.*cough* *Can't remember* 20:15, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well I'm pretty sure that's it's 25. My old brain can't remember... but yeah, there really isn't very many rouges so it really should change. Thanks for being on my side, Stoney <3  Sandy    I think   Daddy's   my slave!  20:20, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I think the limit's fine. The Last Hope is coming out in April, and there's bound to be a few rank changes in there. We're also re-doing the rogue blanks, so, that'll take up a good amount of the page too. 20:51, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

This was discussed not too long ago. We decided that 40 is good number. If there's not a whole lot of chararts up for approval, then why change it? 23:40 Fri Mar 2

I see no reason to change it. I agree with the above. <span style="">00:39, 03, 03, 2012

Agreeing with those above. The Last Hope and After the Flood comes out next month, and we may have new characters in Hollyleaf's Story, which comes out next week on NOOK and Kindle, I believe. 05:46, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

i would like to join
i am tigerstarrule and i woud like to join pca.

i use photoshop elements, and sometimes paint.

i have made chararts for people and jot good reveiws. i know how to do highlights and shading.

thankyou TigerlegsA.K.A. Tigerstarrules! yes he does shank you  03:59, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

I'll add you in right now. Please look at the guidelines before posting chararts. Look at the apprentice tutorials if you want any extra help and look at the mentor program if you would like a mentor to help you. Welcome to PCA! 06:43 Sun Mar 4

Joining Request
Hey! This is Violetwing. I'd like to join Project Charart. I know how to use Paint and add highlights, and shading, and I've expiremented making my own charart. I'm pretty sure I'd be able to help out. Thanks! :) Violetwing Fly away with me! 00:11, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

Please take a look at the guidelines, and if you need help, take a look at the tutorials or request a mentor. I'll add you in momentarily, welcome. 00:15, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

A problem with CoTC pictures
I vented my frustrations out on chat, but Cloudy told me to propose something about it, so I thank her for that. Venting on chat isn't going to solve the problem.

I'll come out and say it: I have a huge problem with Tallstar's images being redone to match his Cats of the Clans picture. Inb4 you rage at me. Firstly, I thought we weren't going by CoTC pictures to determine how a charart looks? We are a creative art project where we are not supposed to copy. The book artists often make mistakes and are notorious for doing so. Do we trust someone who messed up Brambleclaw's eye color to determine what Tallstar looks like? He was still a black and white cat, and matched his description, and his old image had no issues that I could see. What about Leopardstar? By that logic, she would have two different main images since she looks different on the different books (Cats and Code). A lot of characters would have to be redone to look like their CoTC picture: Firestar (for the millionth time), Sandstorm, Bluestar, Sharpclaw, Cloudstar, and many more. Another thing to consider: If we do this, who is stopping us from basing a cat's main pixil on their manga apperances? It's no different than basing their looks from Cats of the Clans and Millie should be a cream tabby with back stripes.

Please see where I am going with this. If we let artists who make mistakes dictate what our chararts look like, then in my opinion, then we may very well make mistakes as well, and I know we want to be at our best since Kate Cary uses our site for reference. That's all I'm saying. If they didn't mess up eye color or designs, then I would be fine with Tallstar being redone, but I'm not because they are not always right. And who's to draw the line between that and the manga, you can't say they're much different because one's cartoony? Who's to say or to even know what's a mistake and what's not?

Anyways, if you can disprove me and/or vote me out, like with the new queen rule, I may not like it, but I will respect it and shut up. And to prove that I am serious, Ashfur (TC)'s image that I did can be redone so it doesn't match his CoTC picture (though I can just tweak it). And just so you guys know, I am not mad at the members who voted for him to be redone or are working on his images. I am not stupid or selfish; I know it would be stupid for me to feel any different in the first place. I hope I didn't forget anything, and if I do, then I'll add to this. Thanks for reading and please leave your ideas. 00:33, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

Following the CotC has been bugging me a bit too. Now I see that it shouldn't work like this. It's like how book covers and manga pictures aren't reliable sources. Even the Erin's make mistakes, so someone outside the Erin Hunter group? (I'm talking Vicky, Kate, Cherith and Tui when I say "Erin Hunter group") If we look on the Mistakes in the Warrior Series page, we can see that there are tons of mistakes made. I understand why you think this way, every characters charart has a right to match their description. <span style="">05:15, 05, 03, 2012

I had the exact same problem Ivy. I was told he was redone only cause he was consistently shown like that, not just once, which makes sense I guess, but I still agree with you. I don't think he really should have been redone to match, but I missed the nomination so I couldn't vote. 05:28, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

Given that McLoughlin's art is known to be frequently by errors that are not corrected by the editor, I see no reason why that should ever be accepted as a cite for any appearance item. This would effectively invalidate the argument that the art was even eligible to be redone. The authors don't even seem to use books like Cats of the Clans as a reference, or (based on things Kate said) Secrets of the Clans. We should not elevate those images to being sources. 16:48, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

I too missed the nomination, so I was unable to vote, and I agree that his past image had nothing wrong with it. Like everyone else said, people make mistakes. For all we know, he could show up as a gray spotted cat next time. We should stick to the descriptions given to us straight from books (main series). 20:47, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you, Ivy. Besides the pictures that give a whole different description (like Silverstream or Boulder), there's really no reason to redo it just because the spots that were on the charart before weren't in exact place or whatever as in the illustration. As long as the cat in illustration has about the same description, the existing charart is fine. Breeze whisker  05:00, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

I'm really sorry if I caused any displeasure to anyone by redoing that image. I wasn't implying that all of the images be changed to match CoTC and I apologize for not making that clear. We don't go off of the pictures from CoTC because they often deviate from the official descriptions like Brambleclaw's eyes, Millie's and Sol's pelt colors, etc. However, if an image did not deviate from the description in the books, it would make sense to at least make the charart somewhat resemble the official image. Example being Firestar's pelt length. He is described as having thick fur, but despite this he is short haired because of how he appeared on the covers of the books and there is so cite in his description saying his pelt length. By that logic, Tallstar looked more black than white which contradicted his old image. I just thought since it was such a small difference, it wouldn't be an alt, but a change. I agree that we shouldn't have to go off the CoTC images when we make chararts and I'm sorry for not allowing artist's choice. This was my mistake and I wasn't thinking about what Ivy said. 06:20 Tue Mar 6

Another thing, Tigerstar has a pale muzzle and chest because he was shown having that in CoTC and on the cover of Rise of Scourge. 06:24 Tue Mar 6

I may be out of pca right now, but I feel I must say this: Mounty, your reasoning for redoing Tallstar makes no sense. PCA doesn't redo images that are already accurate by the books to look like an image from the books. There's no reason. I added a pale muzzle to Tigerstar partially because of the images, yes, but that's adding one trait, and had nothing to do with redoing the images. Tallstar's images were fine and accurate, and there's no need to redo any image to look like those from the books. Firestar has short fur, by the way, because thick does not equate to long and short is what the artist decided on. Npo t because of any book images. If we went on book images, Sunfish would have short fur. 21:51, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

I love how Mountain made Tallstar, but I agree it didn't need to be redone, possibly tweaked, maybe smudge the patches, but it depicted him well and was fitting for a two-tone cat. 23:44, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Shrewtooth?
Would Shrewtooth get a kit image? In SkyClan's Destiny, he mentions his mother died when he was a kit. I'm thinking that, if Firestar gets one for remembering a smell, and Skywatcher gets one for saying he remembered something as a kit, the Shrewtooth would get one for saying something happened when he was a kit. Thoughts? 11:26, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

I think so, but I think we have other cases like that. Not sure it would qualify for a kit image, but I agree in my opinion. <span style="">09:25, 06, 03, 2012

Well, if Firestar gets one for a scent...then I think Shrewtooth gets one for that. 09:27, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion~
Okay, this has been recently brought to my attention, and I'd like to thank Sand for giving me the idea to add it to the guidelines. It has something to do with the month limit users have, and what happens towards the end of that month. Now, we all have had images where it takes a month or more to complete (me as well; ie Oakheart's alt warrior), and since the addition of the rule, I've seen more and more chararts declined.

What bothers me is the method of obtaining a charart that I've seen users do. They're asking users a few days in advance if they can have the image since it would be declined a few days later. Now, if you ask me, I consider that rude, insulting and unfair. It's rude and insulting because they automatically assume that an image is going to be declined, and unfair because users already "claimed" that image, even though someone else still has it.

I currently think it's an unwritten rule to just ask if you can have someone else's image if they're still working on it. However, I think this should be added to the guidelines, and if a user /does/ ask for the image, they should be forbidden from actually taking that image.

Short and sweet: Don't ask another user for their image when their month is close to being up. It's first come, first serve, and totally unfair. 22:50, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I've already experienced it (won't name names, no fighting, it's over, we shall not speak of it again). I think however, we should put a rule up in the guidelines pertaining to this. 05:42, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Sounds like a good rule to add. 09:26, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Oakstep
I may be able to make a loner charart for Oakstep, if that's okay. Violetwing Fly away with me! 23:43, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

You don't have to ask, just reserve it as long as no one else has it reserved. :) <font face="Arial" size="1" color="Black" >Sky Gatlocke  23:53, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

Tiebreak for Rogue Linearts
'kay guys, since Loonie and Mountain tied with the rogue linearts, we need to have a second vote. Same rules apply as the last vote, and there's still an option to keep the current blanks. The page can be found here, and will last for a week, just like the first vote. 01:29, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Question, why are the 'Leave it' blanks still up? 23:38, March 6, 2012 (UTC)