Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Family Tree Icons
To what extent should we use these for a cat's description? (sounds like an essay question not my intention lol) We've already used these for Swiftbreeze and such. Another question is what if they've been consistently depicted in a certain way? (for example, Tawnypelt being tortie-and-white in every artwork of her)

like it was said in the discord, it should be all or nothing really, unless it's specifically contradicted. it is technically an official source after all. 15:54, March 2, 2019 (UTC)

We don't merge manga descriptions with book ones, so how's that any different tbh? If we take icons, but won't merge published mangas, then we run into the same dilemma. And if we take colors from the official tree, then we should be matching the shades to them as well, because it's a visual source and not a written one, otherwise we get into the combining tons of partials range. Tawnypelt is a notable example, she's pale and mottled in the books, but definitely not so in her art. Imo, we should be taking the official art because it's so consistent in said case, but if we do then that has to be something we do for others too. The website has also picked up a habit of... copying our errors lmao, even though we fix them it's like an accordion effect, and so when it eventually gets fixed it'll be for moot rip

I agree not to merge the descriptions. It should be seen as an alt tbh 17:26, 3/03/2019

My question is... who are we to decide what does or doesn't count? The family trees are officially released content from Working Partners. Why should it be seen as an alt? Because it "contradicts written text"? Because in the cases of Tawnypelt and Shellpaw, at least, it doesn't contradict anything- it adds onto their current description and is in no way, shape, or form a contradiction. In Tawnypelt's case, both "pale" and "mottled" were used less than the amount of times she is depicted as a "darker" tortie-and-white. Given that the designs are used across various pieces of media (The Ultimate Guide, Cats of the Clans, Battles of the Clans, and the family tree), I feel we shouldn't be regarding that instance as a mistake.

I could see merging the descriptions if it does not contradict what we have. But, that in and of itself should only apply to when a character is actually addressed as said description. For Tawnypelt, that wouldn't be merging, as she is depicted as a tortie. For others, it might be considered combining two sources that have nothing to do with one another.

Mapleshade has a good example: she was said to have a white tail while she is called ginger-and-white. We cannot and should not combine that with her tortie-and-white description, because she was not called tortie-and-white in the book where the mention occurred. Most of these can be used in some way, like changing Swiftbreeze's coloring, but we need to look at them with a close eye and probably even in a case-by-case basis to some extent. They shouldn't be added without discussing it completely here, though. ​​​​

I think I agree most with Troll. All or nothing.

I've been thinking for a bit of the family tree icons. If you look, I think it's supposed to represent their heads. Their shaped like cat's heads, the tabbies have the tabby pattern of a cat's head. So I'm not sure the description we take from them is supposed to be describing their heads or something (e.g. Tawnypelt has white on her head?)Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:29, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

As Jayie said in the chat, these icons weren't meant to be totally accurate and detailed descriptions, and things such as tabby markings and speckles likely wouldn't be fixed in the future to be completely true to what a cat is. They're not complete, and not always 100% accurate, then. I think we should be careful with what we do with these and some as alts might be more accurate - a tiny icon shouldn't determine a cat's listed appearance with the addition of a new color, when it's not necessarily reflecting the cat's whole description.

So you're saying it's like in book allegiances where it's only of a partial of their full description? So like Tawnypelt is a mottled tortoiseshell while her allegiances generally say tortoiseshell, while her family tree icon shows her as tortoiseshell-and-white?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:04, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

It's not a detailed description, but it's still a representation. Even though it's simplistic, I'm sure people can reasonably deduce a color and what the icon is supposed to represent, like Tawnypelt having white. It may be a case by case basis (like whether the official art also consistently depicts the cat in a certain way) but we still should take the icons into some consideration.

i think we should take some of the icons into consideration, but for the ones that totally contradict their descriptions (coughcough dustpelt) then no merging. it really depends tbh. because these are still official in a way.

Dustpelt's icon has been fixed. However, I think a mergable icon would be Tawnypelt's, as she is listed as tortie-and-white, and most of her official art, including her image for her own novella, depict her as white. I'd say it would be enough to merge white in her description. 16:35, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

is this going anywhere

I think the general consensus is we take the family tree icons as a partial (unless it completely contradicts of course).Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:12, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Anymore comments?

Known Leaders and Medicine Cat Apprentices
I've been in kahoots with some community members I follow on Twitter and they've brought up a concern that I share. On the Clan pages, there is not a list of known leaders, deputies, or medicine cats. While there is a rank list based upon chronological order/succession, this excludes certain cats from Codes of the Clans, such as Owlstar the second and Dovestar. While we do not know their succession or even descriptions, they're still leaders and deserve to be on the Clan page. I do not know if there are any deputies or medicine cats that share this, but those should be included as well. Maybe on the charts adding a row for them on the bottom and put succession unknown on there? Or maybe even doing a "ThunderClan Leader" category or something.

In addition, I've also been asked about medicine cat apprentices being included on the page. Their role in the Clan is different from normal apprentices, and they are tasked with the responsibility of healing the Clan almost immediately. Maybe not by succession, but maybe by who they trained under? Thoughts? 19:27, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

I too, have been thinking about the med cat apprentices for a while now, and I second the idea of giving them their own section. Also the idea of marking down who they trained under? Is awesome. On another note, doing a Thunderclan leader, Riverclan leader, Skyclan leader, etc, would be very helpful. Heck, even dividing up the other roles that that would be neat.Ghobsmacka (talk) 20:18, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Well, we do have this, which is listed on leader. We could start categorizing them as 'ThunderClan leaders' though and slap a DPL to auto-make a displayable list, though. Personally, a MCA column would fit best in the same ways deputies are listed next to their leaders, with a then separate chart for their own listings; more neat.

I've added a couple of options here for grins. I personally think adding a separate column in the medicine cats for their apprentices looks better imo. As for this, it still not a complete list. I think all of the leaders should be listed on the Clan pages because it makes more sense imo and it's all there in one place. 01:02, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I'm a tad bit confused with where this is going. Isn't this already implemented on the Clan article pages? Or is this a more in-depth list? What I'm seeing, Vec, is something that's already listed on pages like ThunderClan. We could always just modify that to include every known one, instead of having it done by known succession order... unless I'm completely missing the point here? It's late and I'm tired, I apologize. ​​​

Nah, it's okay Jayce. For the leaders, I'm just pointing out that the list of leaders we already have does not include everyone...mostly just Owlstar the 2nd and Dovestar of RiverClan. They aren't included in the list because we don't know the order of succession; Leafpool just casually mentioned them in one of the last chapters of Code of the Clans. I'm pointing out they should be included because they are still leaders of ThunderClan...and because members of the community over the years have wanted the full list; I can think back to my old deviantart days when people grumbled about this.

I think we should keep the known order of succession, since that is also very important, and just add a footnote at the bottom of the leader chart saying something like "Owlstar (CotC)'s order of succession is unknown but he appears in Code of the Clans." I just want them mentioned haha. And the mca to the lists too maybe. 12:47, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Well you could always try, instead of succession or since its pretty much shown in the books. You could always do it by books, since those seem to have an order? 13:43, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah sure we can tack it on the end. Any other comments?

This seems like a good idea, and maybe list the leaders/mc's in alphabetical order? Anyways you could probably tack it on the end like Spooky said.

family relations, trivia, and ancestry
so about the family sections; some of them are REALLY long, and I came up with the idea of pruning the cousins to 2nd/possibly 3rd cousins at the most, since by that point they're barely related enough for it to matter. the same would apply for ancestry, like a cat with skyclan blood doesn't matter unless it's a fairly close relation/is important to their character, and could be removed from the trivia as well. maybe like grandparents and such at most? what does everyone think? 20:52, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

another idea is maybe changing up the cousins section slightly so it's first and second cousins as their own listing, so it's easier to differentiate and we won't have to worry about filtering other cousins out after that. 20:55, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

I honestly don't think we should remove any family members, and we have already been doing well in making it easier for pages to load (the /family pages, 'see more', etc) If the cousin area is getting too long for some characters, I agree it would be good to split it up more.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:09, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

the thing is even in warriors relations don't matter so much except for the immediate family, and we only hve this listed so it's somewhat easier to keep track of. if a cat is like a 7th cousin to someone, is anything really lost by removing them? they're a distant relation at that point and all it really does is serve to clog up the page, and if you can't tell what relation a cat is within a couple minutes, is there any point even then? it's not helping anyone. 21:15, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

I honestly don't think we need to list every cousin a cat has; not only does it get redundant in some cases, there comes a time where they actually start to not really be family. The third or fourth cousins really aren't considered family and in some cases, it's just messy. These lists are getting extremely cluttered and messy and hard to keep track of.

I would also like to suggest breaking down the family trees a little more as well and have them focusing on said cat instead of their ENTIRE line. For example, why should a cat like Lionblaze just use Windstar's tree when he can have a tree more focused on him and a bit smaller and easier to edit? A tree doesn't need to focus on an entire line and should focus on said character. ​

Concurring with Skye^^

Alright I'm starting to get what you mean. Just list up to 3rd/4th cousins? That makes sense.

So with the family trees thing, you're saying we should have (for big families), a family tree for every cat/litter, that only shows the family that is listed on their page? I can see that working. That would mean a lot more family pages templates to deal with but if we're okay with that, I could make it work.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:32, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Oh gosh I'm having so much trouble with updating family trees yeah I think we need to put a cap on how many family members we place on family trees and on pages. I had a thought about it, and I think we can use where cats have acknowledged who is (and who isn't kin).

To make it short, Firestar is acknowledged to be Dovewing's kin, so we would include great-great-uncle/great grand-nieces. I think going just 1 above (their parents) is the furthest to go. Now Lionblaze and Tigerstar (the 1st one) are actually kin but it is not acknowledged in the books. Tigerstar is the kit of Lionblaze's great-great aunt, so I'd say show great-great aunt/uncles, but not their siblings.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:27, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Honestly I'd say go to two greats (maybe three) unless it's mentioned that they are kin/significant to their destiny or whatever (coughcough the three coughcough). Same with cousins, only list up to second cousins. Anything else will probably clog up the section and confuse people.

Bramblestar
Major spoilers for Lost Stars

So in Lost Stars, Bramblestar dies. Obviously it would be counted as a loss of one of his nine lives. The thing is though, Bramblestar was dead for over a night, and Jayfeather even announced that Bramblestar was dead, and the elders were getting ready to bury him. Sparkpelt and Whitewing were actually urging Squirrelflight to take up the leadership position, and Squirrelflight basically became the de facto leader of ThunderClan.

Though afterwards, Bramblestar comes back to life, acting as if he simply just lost a life, and ignoring that he was actually dead. Reminder, Jayfeather was there the whole time, and Bramblestar had stopped breathing and his body was cold. Though one thing to note, is that when the other leaders press him about coming back to life, Bramblestar gets really defensive about it, and doesn't outright say he lost a single life at all.

So, did Bramblestar genuinely die? (mind you, the Clans had apparently lost their connection with StarClan), or did he lose a single life? Unsure how to even list it.

21:58, April 10, 2019 (UTC)

well honestly i think that he's a ghost right now. given the cliffhanger on rootpaw seeing his ghost in skyclan's territory, plus the fact the entire blurb for the silent thaw is about an apparition and bramblestar's strange behavior. i think its pretty obvious that bramblestar died completely, given their shutoff to starclan and the fact that the "one starclan cat" talking to shadowpaw obviously did not have good intentions, and rootpaw seeing a shadow behind bramblestar?? thats just my onion tho <span style="">01:02, 4/15/2019

I honestly think it's too early to confirm what's up with Bramblestar. There's not enough information to make a decision imo, since "Bramblestar" is still alive (at least the Clan's pov) and leading ThunderClan, and Rootpaw seeing something in the woods. I don't think we should make a decision at all since the characters themselves don't know what is going on...whether he did died or just lost a life. 02:41, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

Speaking of the blurb, it specifically says he lost one of his lives. So I think for now, we should have it as lost a life.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:35, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Yep, Stealth has a point there. The Silent Thaw's blurb specifically says "After Bramblestar loses one of his nine lives", which practically confirms the mystery illness did indeed take this life from him. And he did die, the medicine cats dectected zero pulse from his heart, so he did die. If I remember correctly I think StarClan may have come to him but I can't remember. We should just list it. 21:55, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

We know he lost one life, so that's that. But he'd also get the |seconddeath= thing we have for Tigerheartstar just in the infobox, to reflect that he did die;; it was unconventional enough for that I'd think. The little visage of him could've been not real.

i personally think hes dead dead but it might be too earlly too tellWillowstep12 (talk) 12:36, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

what kind of cat has no scent -rootpawWillowstep12 (talk) 12:38, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

Spoilers end

Parents, cite validity
Alright, so, this mainly applies to Darkstripe and Sandstorm. Both of them have cited parents, Darkstripe's supposedly being Willowpelt and Tawnyspots, and Sandstorm's being Redtail and Brindleface. I want to contest both of these cites, due to the fact that Redtail's Debt was released and I feel it doesn't support either one of these cats having those parents.

In the case of Willowpelt and Tawnyspots, the latter is dead before Willowpelt is even made a warrior, and it's never touched up or even implied that Willowpelt could have been pregnant. While the family tree lists this pairing, I feel they copied our information, taken from Vicky's Facebook nine years ago. It's pretty clear this is no longer the case, and Redtail's Debt, again, heavily supports this.

For Sandstorm's case, the novella, once more, does not even touch upon this subject. Again, while the family tree supposedly has this information, it's never touched upon once within the story. If Redtail is supposedly Sandstorm's father, this information would have more than likely have been said in his novella, and it's not, despite the fact that this time period is shown, due to Ravenpaw's appearance and whatnot.

tldr; I'm calling into question the validity of BOTH Willow/Tawny and Brindle/Red due to using very outdated citations as proof, the information within (and lacking) Redtail's Debt, and the insane amount of errors within the website's family tree. ​​

as much as i hate to admit it...im gonna have to agree with the statements above. theres nothing in RD that even implies redtail was mates with anyone, and yeah tawnyspots kinda...died before willowpelt was a warrior <span style="">01:04, 4/15/2019

Yeah, this should be removed. WillowXTawny has many problems, including Willowpaw being an apprentice and no way possible to bear kits, while Tawnyspots is sick and dies. As for RedXBrindle, there is completely no evidence in the books that suggests Sandstorm's parents. The Warriors app is also very outdated, so at some point the Erins may have changed their mind. These should be removed. 21:52, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with WillowXTawny. I'm not so sure with Redtail. The focus of that novella was Redtail and Tigerclaw, the apprentices of Sandpaw's generation were barely featured. We got three cites of it as well (Vicky/warriors app/family tree) so I'm not 100% sure of getting rid of it.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:38, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

Both should go. Tawny/Willow is definitely just not physically plausible, given his death and her apprenticeship, and lack of all canonicity. I'm inclined to agree with above on Redtail/Brindle as well - no proof in books at all. There's really none, the tree is full of errors, the post we pull it from is faulty, Vicky's backtracking...the app is questionable in validity as it hails from the same era as the old site. So, for me, remove that as well.

tawny and willow should go, but i dont know about redtail. nothings actually contradicting it, it was just glossed over in a rush o get to......the mistake. 19:30, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

In Redtail's Debt there's actually a timeskip (chapter 7, specifically) for when Bluestar is deputy, to when she's now the leader and Redtail is deputy. That's a considerable amount of time so it's entirely possible Redtail fathered Sandstorm during that time period, though it's obviously not stated in book. Willow/Tawny is just completely impossible in itself so if anything that one should be removed. 01:00, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

I think both cites need to be removed. Redtail could definitely have fathered Sandstorm, but there is absolutely nothing in the books to support it. Those cites we got from Vicky are old and the family tree is full of errors. Until any future books gives us a more reliable source, it should be removed. 23:32, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

Redtail I'm not sure, because it doesn't focus on that (disappointed but anyways), but Willow and Tawny? Don't think so. RD doesn't focus on his family, it focuses on his debt/mistake/whatever the story was about, but eh i doubt they'll reveal it in the near future.

mistystar
so in lost stars mistystar was directly called pale blue-grey. i know we had a discussion about this just before but this calls it into question again. do we go with kates cite saying shes just regular or with this? 19:25, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Here's the exact cite for reference: “That’s true,” Mistystar responded, her pale blue-gray pelt glimmering among the branches of the Great Oak. (chapter 20)

I don't think we can ignore this. It's a book cite from a very recent book and very directly says she is pale blue-grey.

Note that Cherith wrote this book, so perhaps she and Kate have different ideas on what Mistystar looks like? Who knows.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:19, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

I'd go with the book cite, because it's recent + it's clarifying the shade of gray.

nudging for comments 17:34, May 15, 2019 (UTC)

Family Trees
I was getting too focused on family trees on the other topic so I decided to move it here.

There's been talk of having smaller family trees that are more focused on individual cats rather than lines. This makes sense for cats like Sandgorse. He only has three family members, but has been given a very large tree. If we are happy to take on managing more trees, I can easily create new smaller trees from the already existing bigger trees.

For certain cats however, we need to think about who to include on their trees. Lionblaze for example has a humongous number of family members, and cats like Flashnose have quite a lot of descendants, so we need to decide which family members to add to their tree.

I've done a little experimenting, and have made a draft for a Lionblaze/Jayfeather/Hollyleaf tree. Basically, I've shown their immediately family, grandkits/grandnieces/nephews (as well as half-nieces), aunts/uncles, first cousins & their kits, grandparents, grand-aunts/uncles and great-grandparents. A little bit messy in this example as Firestar/Sandstorm have a lot of siblings, but it works.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:24, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Wrenkit's siblings
(minor spoilers for Lost Stars)

There's some confusion regarding the status of Wrenkit's deceased siblings. They definitely were at one point ghost cats, but it's confusing regarding if they then went to StarClan. Here's the cite:

I thought she’d like to know that they were still close to her, watching over her, until they left to go to StarClan. -Tree (chapter 2)

I'm a little unsure if Tree is actually confirming they did indeed go to StarClan. Like, did they actually go to StarClan, or did one day he notice they have disappeared which must mean they have gone to StarClan, but he is actually just assuming? What I'm kinda getting from what he is saying is that, but Tree can be confusing so I might not be interpreting it right.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:24, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

i see that as tree saying they're ghost cats right now <span style="">12:55, 4/20/2019

I'm not sure They may have gone to StarClan or he could be assuming. Since it's unclear, would it be best to have their residence be "unknown" and see if anything more is mentioned of it in the future? 23:43, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

I agree it should be unknown, with how it's worded it seems as if they're former ghost cats, but then we don't know for sure if they went to StarClan after.

i feelnlike tree would know though? he can see them and him saying they left to starclan holds significantly more weight than a random warrior saying it. 20:41, April 24, 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I'd put unknown. Seeing as the waybits ohrased Tree is stating thet haven't gone to StarClan yet hence the whole 'until they left'. In my opinion thats him assuming but it'd definitely be better to wait and see what else is said in the books or by Kate as from what she's been leading on we might know more about what happened to them and all. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#000080; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.22em; font-size:90%"> Ellie <span style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:#25383C; text-shadow:#737CA1 0.2em 0.1em 0.19em; font-size:110%"> life is an illusion 10:59, May 11, 2019 (UTC)

Driftkit's official art
Right now, we don't have a description of Driftkit, but we do have an official art of him. I'm wondering if like manga only characters, we should take their official art as their official descriptions, since we have nothing else to go by.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:40, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we should. Other official arts are a depiction of a cat's description. From the picture, it appears he is a gray tom with darker spots. 12:50, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Hm yeah in this case sure.

I found another case. So when you reach Code 11 in CotC, there is a picture next to it. Underneath it says "Code 10" and there is a ginger cat with white legs on the Great Rock. That can't be Daisyheart, since she was not mentioned to be next to the Great Rock in that story, and not Ripplestar either since he fell and died, plus he's not ginger with white legs. The only cat on the Great Rock still is Finchstar. So, does that image count as Finchstar's description as well? 15:06, May 4, 2019 (UTC)

Format
May or may not be liked, but - this is something i'd whipped up in less than a minute based off some other sites i've come across and I did rather like it. It's an interesting concept that allows for no TOC for extremely minor characters with less than a paragraph of history and were only in one/two books. Thoughts?

Honestly that'd work best for those one-appearance characters, since they appear once (or some cases, just in the allegiances) and never seen again. 01:00, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

I think this works well. I just think the book title should be more obvious, although I don't know how right now. I can already see you made it bold and in italics.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:07, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

That looks nice! For the book title, maybe we could do something like to make it stand out more? 23:46, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

that should look better

The image won't load but I can see the changes on your original link and it looks much better.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  00:50, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

Joining?
Hey there, may I please join this project? 01:17, May 6, 2019 (UTC)

Rushtooth
Okay so is Rushtooth a tom or a she-cat? She-cat was mentioned first, but later they're called a tom in two separate parts of the chapter. The mention of tom outrules she-cat, but she-cat was mentioned beforehand. If we go by the logic of listing what their description is first, then cats like Shellfur and Rowanclaw should actually be female considering they swapped genders during the series, but they're listed as they are now because it outnumbers the old way they were described.

tl;dr do we list Rushtooth as a tom, she-cat, or just no specified gender?

18:47, May 8, 2019 (UTC)

I personally do not care either way, I'm just tired of being attacked for it when I was just following prior discussions and, y'know, PC's rules on the matter. Had the mentions gone tom, she-cat, and then tom again, I'd be listing both or neither one of them.. but given tom was in two seperate parts of the chapter, that is why it was listed that way. Shellfur and Rowanclaw are good examples of this as well, and listing Rushtooth as a she-cat only because it was mentioned first is cherrypicking the cite. ​

^ i really don't care how this ends, but it's cherrypicking to make Rush a she-cat because it was mentioned first. I personally think that if they were called a tom more times than she-cat, they should be listed as a tom, unless we get more information on that in the future. For now though, in my opinion, it should be tom. 19:34, May 8, 2019 (UTC)

since rushtooth is so minor i just say list it as tom or she-cat. 18:42, May 9, 2019 (UTC)

I also don't see the harm in listing both. It makes sense to take the description used most for cats who appear many times, but since there are only three mentions, the intended gender is pretty ambiguous  23:39, May 9, 2019 (UTC)

Maybe just list them as neutral for now, and make note of the confusion in the trivia section perhaps? Stating that there is uncertainty to the character's known gender?

Yeah, we can't definitely say with so few. Other cats have many books (and in Rowan's case, an author cite saying he's definitely male and was given Tawny as a mate in apology); in this case, we don't have anything but three mentions. I agree with listing neutral or both

I would say they are a tom as that is mentioned more than she-cat, but since they are pretty minor I don't see why not on listing both.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:10, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

Owlstar
Noticed this from an edit earlier, but I honestly think we should merge Owlstar and Owl Eyes since it's obvious they're the same cat. Same descriptions, both were Thunderstar's second deputies, etc. While it's not blatantly stated they're the same cat, I feel it's simply obvious enough for them to be the same cat. I believe the same was done for Gorsestar who (as far as I remember) doesn't have anything confirming he's the same cat in Dawn of the Clans, but the page lists him as the same. So by that result then Owlstar should receive the same.

05:55, May 11, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it's overwhelmingly obvious they are the same. They have the same description, eyes, and both have kittypet blood. Owlstar was mentioned to be deputy. Owl Eyes was deputy. Owlstar was called Owleyes.

Now.. this brings up a question. Do we merge Maplewhisker and Maplestar's page as well? Kinda obvious they are the same cat, as Maplestar was deputy and Maplewhisker was deputy too. It was also mentioned Maplewhisker became leader, so.. here's my two cents. 12:43, May 11, 2019 (UTC)

Owl's case has an overwhelming amount of proof, through varying points, so yeah. However, we can't be too hasty in these cases - I'm against merging the Maple cats, as there isn't any proof there.

I'd like a bit more proof before Maplestar and Maplewhisker get merged... but for Owl Eyes and Owlstar, I think there's enough evidence to merge the two articles, and rule the apprentice mention for Owlstar as a mistake, since we know for a fact he never was one. ​

I agree Owl Eyes and Owlstar should merge. As much as I really want it to be so, I don't think there is enough proof that Maplestar and Maplewhisker are the same cat. In fact, it's a little odd about how the other StarClan leaders talked about their contributions to the warrior code, yet she doesn't mention anything about her, so that kind of hints towards them not being the same cat.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:16, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, please, please, please let's do this. I can understand why we didn't do this when DOTC first came out, but now there's a plethora of information supporting this. 14:57, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

Join
Only just realised that I wasn't a member lol

Join
May I join the project? 21:37, May 11, 2019 (UTC)

Kate's validity
I know we all love Kate but I'd like to discuss on how much pull she exactly has. While obviously she's an author, it's been the editors who make more of the decisions for the series (cough cough Beetlewhisker). One of the things we get flamed for is taking her word as canon over the books. Examples that come to mind are Leafshine and Spotfur, since their descriptions have been updated to what she's said. One thing, however, is the fact that she listed Harrybrook and Reedclaw as Kitepaw and Turtlepaw's parents. While this is kind of impossible (Reedclaw wasn't even shown to be pregnant before Violetshine and she's kinda young??) it hasn't made it past the editors yet (I believe) and seems to be Kate's headcanon for all three things listed here, if we're taking her headcanon for Leafshine and Spotfur, then we can't leave out that she listed Reed and Harry as mates. There's other examples of things we've taken her word on, but these are the most recent.

Basically, how valid can we view Kate's word? I respect her as one of the authors but because she just doesn't have as much of a say anymore for the series makes me wonder if we can take her word as firm canon. 03:56, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

i still say we only take things that dont contradict what the books have said (direct, undebatable confirmations like "such and such is grey") because otherwise we are going to lose a lot of shit. even things like firestar's death confirmation. something like reed and harry (personal feelings about it besides) wouldnt be because ahe casts it into doubt by saying its in her own personal allegiances vs just saying yeah sure a cat is tbis colour. 06:41, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

No I don't think we can just not use her word anymore. She writes a lot of the books, she is the 'brain' around much of the series. I don't think we can just dismiss her. She has stated before (and I agree with it) that author word comes second to the books. As long as what she says does not contradict the books, and it is a clear "this is..." and not "I think" or "I believe", then we can take her word. Right now, she is our best source of information outside of the books, and getting rid of that is not a good idea.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:04, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

"This is a Schrödinger’s cat question; as long as the description is unwritten in a book, the cat is any colour. There is no way to know until the description is written in a book. My describing it here will not make it so. It will just make a version that may or may not be true." She said this in response to a question asking her for a cat's coat color, which suggests that anything that's not the book =/= canon. We can't be cherrypicking what's canon and what's not.

And this too: "He is unable to answer questions that are not canon because, if it is not written, it is not canon." (Of course I'm only assuming Kate wrote this)

that does only point out the coat colours though. so would that even count for things that arent descriptions? the second thing i think is just because people shouldnt be asking just to add stuffto the wiki. 07:59, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

Uhh, the link leads to a page literally says "Only things that the authors themselves confirm can be added to the Warriors Wiki." Sounds like Jaysnow said that part but wow is that contradictory. I also read that sentence first before the one you referenced Fox so I was pretty confused at first XD<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  10:43, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

I think that was added by Jaysnow. Not sure about the first part though, but the first sentence I referenced was a comment by Kate.

The amount of times she's said 'if it isn't in the books, it isn't canon' or something very similar needs to be taken into account. She's given outlines of the book to write, and she does have say to clear up things like that whole Rippletail mess, but - she's not all the authors. We never hear from the novella team or Cherith and always take Kate's word as god in many f these cases, when this series isn't entirely hers, but rather WP's. I do believe we can just stop using this stuff altogether. We've run into instances in the past where her word directly contradicts the books, and we take her word. Even in cases where it doesn't contradict the books now, it could very well in the future. I like a lot of the stuff, but to me, it's all or none, in the interest of non-cherrypicking. And in the interest of maintaining a steady encyclopedia, I'd be in support of taking out the one source of unpredictability we have left, which is all these links subject to change.