Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

I haz a proposition..... owo
Ok guys, so as most of you are probably aware some of us were planning to make sure Loonie's image wasn't declined in the 9 days she'll be gone, as she gave a clear time she'd be back, and it was only 2 days over the limit, however Shelly brought up a good point about it not being in the rules, and it technically being an exception. However, we've done this kind of thing in the past an I think it's only fair, so I propose we add it to the guidelines. If a user is gone for any less than 2 weeks, and gives an exact date when they'll be back, their image shouldn't be declined until that day. If they're not back when they said, then yes, it would be declined. What harm would come from keeping an image a couple days over if we know when they'll be back really? It seems unfair, and we've made unofficial exceptions in the past. So I say we add this to the guidelines once and for all. I've got a few people supporting already, so what do you guys think? 03:15, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Mmkay, let's move away from the word unfair and move towards making an actual proposal, eh?

How about this: should a user that is currently in the process of getting a charart approve need to leave due to unforeseen circumstances, they may be allowed a five day extension on top of the normal 1-week time limit before their charart is declined for lack of work. If the user fails to notify the project, however, they still fall to the normal 7-day time limit. Sound good? 03:21, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Shelly, that sounds perfect^^ 03:24, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. 03:26, 05, 04, 2012

In all honesty, I don't agree with this. You get a week to upload or not and that's that. I don't think any user should have an extended amount of time for a reason like that. It doesn't seem fair that somebody should get to sit on an image that a bunch of other people can do. A week is certainly long enough and I don't think there should be exception for any reason except like deaths in the family. I know that sounds extreme, but it's not fair if somebody goes on vacation or something that requires a fair amount of planning beforehand and an image many would love to do isn't worked on. Especially if one knows they are going to be gone. The image shouldn't have been reserved or posted in the first place. So no, I don't like this. Breeze whisker  03:40, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

That's why I said "unforeseen circumstances", Breezey. Going on vacation is a foreseen circumstance, and if you're planning to go vacationing you're irresponsible to try starting a charart, anyway. I'm talking about things like death in the family, sudden injury, natural disaster, things like that. 03:43, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with that, but, excuse me for using a specific example, Loonie said she was going to Europe in the image comments, and that usually involves quite a bit of planning. So unless it was an emergency I don't think an exception should be made. So the reason this is being proposed is bothering me more than the actual proposition, which I agree with as long as it is the emergency sort of thing, since unless Loonie's reason was an emergency it goes against the proposition and implies that what I am against in my earlier edit is the reason. I apologize for any misunderstandings or anything of that sort since I don't really want to pry. Breeze whisker  03:57, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

This wasn't made for Loonie. It began discussion because her being gone brought up the problem, but a few of us discussed it and it was decided we'd propose it. Not for Loonie, for everyone who this'd apply to. 04:07, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if I am allowed to comment. I agree with this. I have two images on the approval page and I am going to a wedding in Canada today, that I only knew about on Tuesday. I won't be back until maybe Monday or Tuesday and I really don't want my images to be declined. If it is not my place to comment here, then sorry-- 11:25, April 5, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

The thing is (I hope I can explain this right) couldn't someone easily manipulate and abuse that? They could easily say it was an emergency and not have their image declined. Also, someone could just say something happened and let their image sit for longer. I mean, I'd like to think everyone would be honest, but you can never be 100% sure. I just think that we've been fine with what system we've already had. You could also say that an emergency is how you interpret it. Obviously, serious family sickness or a death is an emergency, but some things, it depends on the person as to whether or not it is. So I say either extend the time limit or just don't change it at all, in my opinion, as it's not fair. 17:19, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not we extend the time limit, there will always be users who abuse that fact. It's common knowledge that there's going to be a user or two in a group that will lie about why they're not around, and get the extended time. But, at the same time, if we extend the normal time limit, there are going to be those users who just let their images sit, thus taking up space that could be used for productive work.

I think the limit should only be extended if it's a legit reason, like, when I left back in December, or if a user is working on image blanks, like Loonie was. Each situation should be looked at differently, and exceptions only made it the situation calls for it. If a user knows their going on vacation or something like that a month in advance, they should only take on images they know they can get approved within that time limit, or just not take any at all. It's different for something like a flood (as I would know first-hand), or other acts clearly beyond their control, like a death in the family, or an accident.

Exceptions can be made, and they have in the past. As I said though, it should be looked at individually, and shouldn't be generalized into groups. 17:36, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

I still agree. Something major, like a death or natural disaster, I think there should be exceptions. 02:12, 06, 04, 2012

Guys... I'm going to stick my nose in here... Either you have rules or you don't. It's one thing to choose to extend for a person who /cannot avoid/ something (IE: Your house is flooded by a hurricane) but it's another for exceptions to be given for completely unexceptional circumstances. "I leave on vacation" says to me that the person shouldn't have even had the gaul to reserve the image in the first place, given that they knew full well they didn't have time to finish it. I think a rule for exceptions is a good idea because exceptions beyond the rules should be rare. Rare to the point where they're almost nonexistent. Vacation is not a reason to grant an exception. Vacations are planned. They're far from beyond the control of a person. It's time to create a rule to deal with the situations that are needed and it's time for exceptions to the rules to become exceptions again, instead of making them the rule without an rules governing them. The past is a terrible precedent in this case because what was done in the past was a bad idea. Not having rules for extensions will make nepotism and unfairness too easy. If everyone agrees that "this type of situation is what warrants an exception to the normal rules" is much more fair than "listen to the situation and decide based on no criteria that anyone can discern". 18:33, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Something Fun
For once, Shelly has an idea that can be construed as a way to make the project more fun. Hooray!

This would just be for fun, to add a friendly competition to charart making. Since PC, PB, and PW get to have features on the front page every month, why don't we feature a best charart on the front page of PCA every month? For fairness, it can only be a charart made originally or as a redo.

I think a couple of additional rules would be that a person that has a charart win one month would be unable to get nominated for two months afterward. The senior members would make the nominations and the entire project would vote for their favorite.

Features would go on PCA's main page, right below the project news (I think).

How does this sound? 23:34, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

As I said on the chat, I think this is a very good idea. 23:36, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I re-thought this. I don't agree. What if each month, a charart made by one or two users will be nominated every time? I wouldn't find that so fun. Also...Though it is for fun...I just don't think it's very necessary...Sorry. 23:38, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

That's why I added in the rule that once a person wins they have to wait two months before even being nominated again. Of course, we can extend that length of time. And of course it isn't necessary, nothing about this project is. It'd just be a fun way to encourage users to do their best and improve their skills. 23:51, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm...That would work. 23:54, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds fun! Why not? Maple♥ legs  Mischief brewing 00:00, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Spark stands by what she said on the chat. |3 Good idea, Shelly~ Spark  Love me some chocolate~! ♥ 00:02, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds okay, but I had a couple suggestions. Maybe, instead of art being nominated by a user, the OA would put forth their art for consideration and everyone would vote, kinda like the contest. And, though I think you implied this, one charart per user? Where'd the voting be done? And does the charart have to be started and completed in that month, or just started? 00:36, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I think we'd do nominations in a forum like the other projects do. And good idea with the self-nominations. And I think a charart will need to be completed to be put up for nomination. 00:42, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I knew that the charart would have to be completed. I meant within the month, like could it only be a charart started on April 6th and finished April 24th? Scarlet Derp moment 01:01, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

So this is actual chararts displayed on the wiki (ie. I could nominate Whitestorm's Apprentice), not fanfic chararts. Slap me if I'm wrong. Also, what if I originally did an image, and it was later redone by another user, who would get to nominate it? Does it have to be the current version of the image? I like this idea, it will bring more fun to the project. :) I agree with self-nominations. 02:21, 09, 04, 2012

Ah, Scarlet, I think just finished within the month then. And DJ, yeah, only images that go through PCA. So no non-canon stuff. And I doubt any charart you finish would be redone within the month. 02:41, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly I'm not a huge fan of this idea. It sounds fun and all, but I have a feeling it will cause drama, and that's never good. Nice idea, but it may not work out as nicely as you imagine, so I'm gonna say no, I don't agree. Go ahead, shoot me now. 03:46, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

No one is mad that you disagree, Paleclaw. Everyone is inclined to their own opinion. 03:49, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Paleclaw. It's really easy to hurt others feeling with art and it might cause some resentment. I might be wrong, but from what I've seen with PC, PB, and PW, the articles featured are a collaboration of several different users, with edits from contributors and others on the wiki. A charart is really just made by one person, despite the critiques that are given on the image. It doesn't really show what the wiki can do, just what a person can do. Also users might get bitter if their art isn't featured and some of them might decide to cause drama, and like Paleclaw said, that's never a good thing. Breeze whisker  04:11, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I agree too. To the warriors, apprentices, and kits, their art may or may not be featured as much as SW+, and that might hurt their feelings. Also, I know who's art would mostly be featured, and even though we'd do the two month rule, we'd still have common winners and it might intimate users about their own skill. I know I am when I look on the approvals and tweaks page, and aside from my few good chararts (Crookedstar, Firestar, Mapleshade), I might feel sure about my skills (this is mostly an example using me, but I might feel a little let down if I only had, let's say, one feature during this whole run, and so would other's). I know you guys who agree only have good intentions, but there could be consequences :/ I hope I explained what I meant right. It sounded better in my head lol  20:17, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe to share around the prize to be featured between the different ranks, we could change the theme each month or every two months. For example, one month might have the theme of "The Most Original Art", and the next month might be "The Neatest Shading" or something. (Someone can think of better names then me). Not sure it will quite work though. 02:49, 10, 04, 2012

DJ, that sounds like a really good idea~ *claps* I think that we could maybe go along with DJ's theme idea, and that way every charart would have a shot at being featured. 23:02, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah! I like DJ's idea because thinking about it, it would probably open up to more of the project members, if that makes sense. 03:06, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Minnowtail's Description
I've been meaning to bring this up... Anywho, I asked if i should post this here or PC's talk page, and I was told to post it here, so I think her alt for being described with a dappled pelt should stay. It was the only time she was described with it, and its not like a pale underbelly or a nick in the ear, its her whole pelt pattern. I doubt that the Erins' forgot to add her pelt pattern to the alligiences every book. So yeah... Thoughts? 00:43, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Once again I argue, alts shouldn't be made just cause something was only mentioned once. Like for instance, Sparrowfeather got tabby added to her description, though it was only once, so why shouldn't minnow? Like a million descriptions would be removed if we didn't add things that were just mentioned once. I think it should be added. 04:39, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

So if we do that...we'd make cats like Mousefur and Mudclaw tabbies, and Russetfur ginger and white? o3o Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 07:05, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm I'm not sure about the first two, maybe we can find some kind of standard on when to add things that were only mentioned once. But no, Russetfur was in the manga, so even if we did this, she wouldn't become one. 07:32, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with making it the description of the whole cat if it's only mentioned once if it's the whole pelt pattern, but that's of course just my opinion. I don't think that Sparrowfeather should have had his tabby mention put in his description either, since he already is mottled anyway, and was only mentioned once with it. :/ 08:17, 11, 04, 2012

Erm, need I remind you guys that Squirrelflight was only mentioned with a white paw once? And yet that's always been a part of her description here. I think that if a new aspect of some cat's description is revealed later after the cat first appears, and it doesn't change any part of their existing description (like changing from gold to gray, or Hawkfrost going from a mackerel tabby to a swirling tabby) it should simply be added to the cat's description. Like making a mottled cat a tabby? Totally normal. 15:29, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Also, how many time do I have to tell you people? 'Character descriptions fall to Project Characters. The only part of the article we control are the character images, NOTHING ELSE.' 18:09, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Indeed is Shelly correct. Please keep in mind that PCA handles the character images while PC pertains to the structure, formatting, and the content within character articles. A character description is part of the content within a character's article. Also, if it's a minute problem, a discussion can be put on the talk page of the article. 22:24, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Very true. Whatever is stated in the description, we make the charart on. Currently, Minnowtail's description is "a dark gray she-cat with amber eyes" (There's more to it), so we make a charart for that description. I think that's fair. 02:16, 14, 04, 2012

A Public Apology to *Wildfire* and a Proposal for and Elder Rank
As the heading suggests, I'm here to formally apologize for what I started recently concerning the actions of Wildfire. As many of you know, when Wildfire posted a list of non-contributive users to this talk page, I was the first to decry her actions as over the line and rude. Soon after this, Wildfire was kicked from the project.

We were wrong to do this.

Wildfire, I am so sorry for what I said and what happened. In hindsight, what you did was more than appropriate. You did what the senior warriors should have been doing by checking the contributions of the members of this project and finding those that did not fit our guidelines any more. We should have encouraged you to continue helping with the footwork our senior warriors haven't been doing, and we should not have kicked you from the project.

As such, project bannings should not be considered an option for punishment anymore. They are not enforceable as project membership is not required for project participation.

And furthermore, I'd like to propose yet another rank. One that other projects already use. That'd be the elder rank.

The purpose of the elder rank is simple. When someone starts to become less than contributive, they are added to this rank to remind them to contribute and to remind senior warriors to keep an eye on them. If they're in the rank too long, they're removed from the project.

I think that this would help a bit.

And, again, I sincerely apologize to Wildfire for my own rash actions that led to the rash actions of others. I hope you don't think less of me for it. 20:54, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry as well, Wild. There isn't much I can say that's already been said. I kicked myself (not literally) for booting you from the project, and afterwards, I felt terrible for days.

I feel partially responsible for this, as it was my choice to kick you from the project. I thought it was the right thing to do at the time, and I now realize that it wasn't. I wasn't thinking with my head, and now I realize the error of my ways.

Again, I'm sorry, Wild. We're glad to have you back in PCA, and I swear to StarClan this'll never happen again.

Thank you for doing this, it means alot, but you didn't have to, you believed what you were doing was for the good for the project and I can't blame you for that. You gave me a chance to think about my words and the effects of them, and I needed to do that. Thank you Shelly and Cloudy for doing this though, it really does mean alot. 21:47, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

About the Elder proposal... I think it's an excellent idea. Maybe, when they are added to the rank, a lead can leave the a message to let them know. 16:21, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of the elder rank too. 07:44, 20, 04, 2012

Okay, here are my biases with the elder rank. The elder rank is meant to list people who are inactive reminding them to contribute to the project, however most users who fall inactive don't come back. It's upon a user's own free will to join a project and it's the users responsibility to contribute to the project. Should they not attend to this responsibility, they face the consequences. It shouldn't be the project's responsibility to keep track of the level of activeness from multiple users. I feel that with the Elder's rank, that would make the project, especially senior members, responsible for keeping track of multiple user's activeness. 02:03, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Senior Warriors, Pay Attention! This is How it is!
Alright. I'm not here to bear any ill will. I'm not here to name names or place blame on anyone specifically.

I am here to get something straight. Because this is becoming a problem. This is the number one thing I noticed the most when I was a warrior (and yeah, I became a warrior to take notes on what the bigger problems in the project was).

Senior warriors.

You were all elected by this project to perform the actions that need to be performed to ensure that the project runs smoothly. When you do not perform these actions, the project slows down and things don't get done. Warriors have to sit there powerless waiting for their images to get archived or their nominations to get voted on and archived.

So here is what you're expected to do, specifically.


 * Everything a warrior does (make images, comment on image, participate in discussion)


 * CBA images


 * Archive images that are ready to be approved or declined


 * Watch the kits and note when they get their first imag emost of the way done so they can be made apprentices


 * Watch the apprentices so that they can be made warriors when they have enough images complete


 * Vote on tweak/redo nominations


 * Archive tweak/redo nominations


 * Vote on membership nominations and archive these nominations when the voting period is done


 * Monitor the activity in the project to make sure no one is violating a guideline.

When only a few senior warriors are actually doing all of these things, there's a problem. It is a disservice to the rest of the members of this project and it makes it so they cannot do their jobs. I take this as a personal failing since I nominated or voted for most of you.

I'm not saying that all of you are failing at your jobs. Many of you are doing great. And I'm not saying that all of you need to do every job every day. But if the productivity of senior warriors reaches an extent, I will be naming names. You aren't put into this position for the glam of having the title. You were put in this position so that stuff gets done. And if you cannot get these things done, someone else can fill the position.

Please understand that I write this out of concern for the project, not out of contempt for anyone. I want to see the project thrive, but lately it's like its pulse has slowed. And this is not okay. 01:18, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

'''Thank you. This is what I was trying to say'''. Well said, Shelly. Honestly, I'm sick of being one of the only ones who does work around here. Sorry, guys, but to be blunt, you need to shape up a bit.

Does this include me? I'm sorry if I'm not active when I'm at my mom's, but it's unavoidable, but if it's a problem, I can try to get on more when I'm over there. :c 02:48, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

It includes every senior warrior. Not making contributions every time your at your mom's house it fine. But every senior warrior is slacking. I originally proposed that we expand the senior warrior rank with the intent to get this stuff done even when a few other senior warriors needed to be away. With the number of senior warriors we have, you should be able to go to your mom's house without there being a significant drop in SW productivity. 02:57, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I have been trying to improve on these things, and now I'll try much harder. Sorry if I have been slacking. 03:10, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I know this mostly means me.... I've been having a difficult year, but I promise that I will make a commitment. 03:12, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, uh, I know I'm in there. I'll try harder once I get back from my break. Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 12:28, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Tweaks and OAs
Alright, I know paleh told Shelly to propose this, but honestly, after hearing what she had to say, I agree, and I felt the need to get this discussion going. I really think that Shelly is right that when we redo an image, it adds insult to injury to the OA, basically telling them that their art was not good enough for the project, and almost publicly humiliating them for their work that we have deemed unacceptable. I'm not sure about tweaks, but I say that we should stop doing these for redos for the reasons I stated. 18:03, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm I'd like to hear what some people who've had their images redone think about it. I've had images redone before, but honestly, I couldn't care less, so I want someone's opinion who does, would they rather be named, or not named? But for tweaks, I think we should always name the OA. It's a tweak. It's not your work. Therefore you should give credit where credit is due. 18:26, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and Icestorm gave me this comment to post on skype, so this is the opinion of someone who's a prime example of all this.

"When I get offended is when people think their chararts are better than mine. If I'm not insulted, and one of my chararts are redone, I think I'd like to be named the OA."

So yeah. I honestly like being named as the OA too, but like I said, I couldn't care less if my chararts are redone, so I'm not really one to give my opinion on that. Shelly makes a good point of it possibly being offensive, but given that comment, I'm not sure it really is. But there you go. 18:29, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

When it comes to tweaks, yeah, name the OA since their work is still there. But when it comes to redos, I see no point to naming OAs. First off, as I said and you agreed with, it's insulting in my eyes to point out the name of the person whose work has been replaced. Secondly, if they have no work left on a current image, it also pointless for the current artist to have to name someone that had nothing to do with the creation of the image they've worked hard on. This is a realization I came to quite a while ago and I've lived by this philosophy for months without anyone caring. It's not based on me thinking that I'm better than anyone. It's just me having respect for myself as well as previous charartists (or even current charartists that have had their charart nominated for a redo). If I had an image redone, I wouldn't want to be named on an image I didn't create. 18:36, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I personally think that it's nice to be named out of respect. Acknowledged that you did do the image, and had it approved, even if it is being redone now. *sits in corner and attempts to think of analogy for what I'm saying* 18:40, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary. The image doesn't belong to the OA anymore, and if somebody wants to know who has worked on it they can simply check the image history. Breeze whisker  18:49, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with all of you yes on redos the OA is unneeded but I honeslty don't care myself if I'm the OA. That's just my opinion. 21:21, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think that the first artist should be named, but nothing after that, like "Tweak by Yayay, another tweak by Peanutstar, Redone by Blahblah and now I'm redoing it". This is coming from a user who's had all/most of her chararts redone. I think it's up to the maturity of the OA. Most of them are gone, but if they are still around and can't handle it, and come complaining to the leads on chat, they should realise that everyone's had an image redone, or will soon. But that's my opinion. /shot Maple On dA and Skye 21:33, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I do tend to get annoyed at my work being redone. However, I, personally, would like to be named that I was the one who got the charart through "CBA" and approved. And by my philosophy, I still don't recognize redone work as someone elses if the original artist is a different user. The charart doesn't go through the same process as it originally did. -Shrug- There are two different opinions on this and because it'd be tedious to go to the original artists and ask, I say it should be up to the user who "redoes" the art. And off on a persuading note, I'd put the original artist out of respect, not out of shame. 21:40, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Maple. I think the first OA should be listed, and that one only. If an image of my own was redone, I wouldn't care. If anyone wants to see the other OAs, then can just look up the file on the wiki. 22:56, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think all the artists that help an image improve should be named. Not just the OA. It's a sign of respect for the artists that took the time to make the image. Whether it's being redone or not, it's stupid that the artists of the image go unamed. I usually credit everyone I see in the file upload page, regardless of the amount of work they've done.

I'm neutral on this. I think that either all the artists or none should be named. It doesn't really bug me if my work is redone or tweaked, everything is done for a reason. Once we believed there were triangle tabbies, so of course there would've been chararts made with them. Again, I'm indifferent so I'm not sure. 09:31, 18, 04, 2012

Yes, I could go both ways on this. Some people might think of it as hurtful, others out of respect. (like Atelda said) I would say that we should only say the OA with tweaks, not redos. This is just my opinion, but if someone were redoing an image, the original artist has really nothing to do with it, in my point of view. But I can see both sides of the situation. 15:56, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I understand both perspectives. Though, If I got an image approved, then it was completely redone, it's not my image anymore. Therefore, I'm not the artist of an image that was completely redone, and I wouldn't want my name listed there. Plus, I'm not a fan of redoing images, I think that all images could still be tweaked so the OA's style still stays at least a bit... 00:48, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well... I don't think when your redoing an image that the OA's should be named, since it's basically like putting something for approval, starting from scratch. 08:57, 19, 04, 2012

It's a matter of respect that the artists who worked on an image be named. Whether they're being redone or tweaked, it doesn't matter. It should be a choice whether or not they want to name the artists who worked on it. I'll always do it, since that's how I was told to when Tweak Week was around..

I like to name the OA's of the charart just a recognition and respect. And I agree with Maple's point as well. I don't think naming the OA's/users who've worked on an image is disrespectful. Though the art isn't really theirs anymore, I feel that they should get some recognition, and if they're still a member of the wiki, they'd probably get a notification that their work's been changed anyway. I guess I'm also thinking about this about writing an adaption for a book, like "Black Beauty: a children's adaption, based on the story by Anna Swell". 15:48, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

This is getting old
All right. I've reached a boiling point with all this drama in this project. This needs to end. NOW. Doing art for a book series you love and displaying pride in the character articles is what this project is about, not about fighting and petty arguments. I have a few ideas on what needs to be changed, but the purpose of this section on this page is for everybody to contribute to helping the project out to be fun again. So please, if you think of something different from me, please speak up, and members, you are to hear them out and listen to them. I'm tired of people ignoring others (I know for a fact how this feels).

For one, we need to have a clear definition of what gets redone or not. I think that this is a major issue. People getting their feelings hurt because their image just isn't "real enough". True, we shouldn't have big honking triangle stripes on an orange cat with red tabby stripes, but we're getting way too nit-picky with what gets redone. If you want a phenomenal example, my image for Leaftail, while he has a pleasing pattern, this pattern is not realistic for a cat at all. There are cats who have unrealistic color + pattern combos, such as Blackstar, Brambleberry, and Shrewfoot. Heck, if the Erins even payed attention to genetics, many of the cats that exist would look dramatically different. Guys, the blanks themselves aren't even entirely realistic. For one, take the tail of the long-pelted warrior. Ever seen a cat's tail where you didn't see any tufts of fur stick out? Take another example. Cats can't smirk, and yet, the leader blank depicts a smirking cat. Finally, have you ever seen a cat with a thick black line surrounding it? I don't think so.

Now, I'm not 100% sure where the line should be drawn with realism, and that's something else we need to discuss. Where to draw the line. If need be, I can draw up the examples on our pixil blanks and upload them over my own personal image. I can do varying degrees of realism in a cat, and we can discuss whether it would be suited to be tweaked/redone or to leave it alone. Whatever you guys decide, it's fine by me. I have the time on my hands to do this. And no, the realism thing is not directed at anybody. We've all suggested pictures we thought were unrealistic that people didn't agree with.

I'm just fed up with friendships breaking apart, drama, and people leaving because of this. What they once loved, they no longer want to be a part of that, and I feel like we have failed to make this project as pleasant and as fun as it used to be. From what I remember as an apprentice and from what I've heard, PCA used to be a lot more fun, and that's what it should be, nothing more. 22:43, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Arguments about little things isn't helping anyone out. Plus, with heated arguments, users can even be scared, which isn't a good sign. 00:43, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I agree.

What?

You people are surprised? Yeah, I prefer realism myself, but I don't want to push my personal preferences on people. I only advocated it because realism was being pushed before I even joined the project, with the ginger cats all being given stripes and the y- and triangle-tabbies being gotten rid of and changed. I prefer a peaceful project to a bickering one, and there are more important things to focus on. -- 04:36, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I certainly agree. With all of this realism stuff, it's probably putting pressure on all of the newer PCA members that don't have as much experience. I know if I joined the project now like I did last year, I wouldn't be doing too well. 76.89.179.0 05:25, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, that was me. :3 ^ 05:27, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. It needs to stop, I can't stand all the friendships being lost, users leaving and all the intensity of the project. I'm not sure where to start but I'll make a begining. Once we've decided the line of realism we should put it into the guidelines.

 What should be redone due to non-realisic (my opinion) 
 * Triangle tabbies
 * Y-tabbies
 * Color (remember Squirrelflight the red firetruck?) lets not take this too far though
 * All the basics (non-realistic shading, earpink etc)

 What shouldn't be redone due to non-realisic (my opinion) 
 * Change of pelt pattern (those cats Ivy listed above)

Um.. we'll think of more. 08:36, 19, 04, 2012

Shelly, there shouldn't be a reason for people to be surprised that you agree. =) Like I told you, in chat. Anyways, guys, I don't think realism is the only problem around...Before, I left because of different reasons... But, I believe that images should not be redone for having modified triangle stripes, as those stripes can look classic to me. It may seem that drama happens from realism, but in my view, it doesn't. Sometimes, of course, but there are other factors that could cause this.

I just think we're getting to picky...Who gets to reserve an image, ect. I think that people shouldn't "call" an image to reserve, but whoever reserves it gets it. Unless they really, really, really want an image, it'd be generous to let them have it...But, really, calling images causes fights. That's one thing.

Then, of course, there's realism. But why vote 'yay on a nominate image, and then complain about too much realism? Or same goes with voting 'nay on an image. If we don't support something, but still vote yes on it, but then complain about it, what's the point of that (I take blame with this too)?

Also, it may seem as if newer members can get the wrong idea with respect, and respect users with a higher rank more then lower ranks. Then, that can cause problems, as respect it to be shared equally.

Also, possibly, we should start assuming less...Assumptions can be serious ones that can start problems.

So yeah...^^ We could work on that, as those are reasons for me when I left, including some realism problems.


 * And, once those arguments/drama starts, it will scare others, break friendships, but without a strong community that tries hard not to fight, I wouldn't call it a successful project. That way, we have failed many of our members, and set a bad example for the newer members. 15:08, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Typographical Error on one of the Current Votes
Hey guys. I'm sorry I didn't notice this until today, right before this vote is set to pass, but I made a bit of an error on the the alt guideline vote. I accidentally put pale markings under what does qualify for an alt, when I meant to put them under what does not. Many of you noticed this before I did and votes nay on the guidelines because of it.

Normally I'd just cancel the vote and start a new one, but considering the fact that the vote ends in less than 24 hours and it has a majority vote for it to pass, I'll simply be allowing it to go through and I'll be starting a second vote to remove pale markings from the alt qualifications guidelines. This way no one's vote is disregarded.

Just thought you guys would want to know. I'll post a link to the new vote here tonight at midnight on the wiki clock.

Best, 17:40, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Can I join? 24.63.69.231 00:08, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but only registered users can join PCA. If you create an account, then maybe you could join ^^ 07:23, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

That's okay Shelly, everyone makes mistakes. 07:28, 20, 04, 2012

Alright, the new vote is here. Ivyheart, you might want to add this to the news. It's a small vote, so it'll only run one week rather than two. 22:36, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Blueish-gray cats vs. Gray cats
It kinda hurts me to bring this up, but this is a blue cat and this is a gray cat.

We've had this discussion before and Bluestar and all related blue-gray family members were redone so that they were more realistic  14:14, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

The first one doesn't even look like it's blue, honestly.....

Well, the only blueish ca that I really know of is a Russian Blue.. How about this one? 14:35, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

For the record: When talking about animals that are not birds or fish, the word "Blue" refers to gray coloration. Even the russian blue mentioned above is just a shade of gray. 14:42, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I had to hang up early. @ Kitsufox, I know that. @ Ivy Bluestar got alts for being called gray, but since they are basically the same, I don't know if she should. @ Cloudskye, that's my whole point. @ Misty, there are others, like the Nebalung, Korat, and Chartreux, and British shorthairs usually are blue as well. 16:26, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

The current ones are much closer to blue-grey than the old ones were. The blue coloring in those really only shows up when the light is just right, otherwise those cats just look grey. Breeze whisker  03:34, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I kinda agree. If we're going to be counting gold and ginger as the same thing, Bluestar really shouldn't have alts for being gray. She is gray, in the right light. 16:04, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I tried to object to when we started giving them plain gray alts, but nobody agreed so I gave up. :P 22:51, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

This is sort of like the gray-light gray alt one shade to the next, they are basically the same thing. So I agree we shouldn't give her the alts. 01:18, 22, 04, 2012

I say that the regular gray alts should go. However, I believe she has one or two alts that I think should stay. I know for a fact her light leader alt that I made should stay because she was mentioned with pale fur, which contradicts her description, and I believe the one where she has a solid stripe on her head would stay too (should double check to make sure)  15:39, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, by the new alt guidelines, being described as light would only be a single shade shift since she isn't described as dark, and wouldn't qualify for an alt. 02:07, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

So she and Mistystar shouldn't have pale gray or dark gray alts. (coughs) And yet people are still making them right now. 15:06, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

And your point? If they're making them, decline them and tell them that it's too close to the original shade. Simple as that.

No. Every time I do something without deferring to the project first, I get accused of working based on my opinion alone and I'm tired of it. So, on this matter, I am attempting to get this matter closed now. Now, can we all agree that blue-gray and gray are basically the same colour as gold and ginger are? And, if so, can we delete Mistystar and Bluestar's light gray or dark gray alts, since they are only a single shade away from their current images? 20:10, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I don't support it, not do I go against it. However, if that's what the project wants, that's what the project wants. I don't mind either way. Comments, everyone?

I support it. 20:40, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree. We should get rid of the gray alts, yes, that's a partial description. But pale gray and dark gray would be more than one shade. They should stay. Pale gray and blue-grey are not the same thing, and it's a big enough difference they should get an alt. Blue-gray is a shade of gray, not the same as plain gray. Going from blue-gray to light or dark grey would be two shades. They should get alts. Just get rid of the plain gray ones. 21:55, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

That's an excellent point, Paleh. I agree with that 100%. 22:06, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I agree as well. 100% :) 22:08, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Paleh too. Just simply get rid of the plain gray alts. 22:11, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Except, depending on the light, Bluestar can be any shade of gray. In fact, she's only even blue-gray in perfect lighting. In any other light, she'd look just gray, and so I believe we should treat gray and blue-gray as synonyms, but like we treat ginger and golden as synonyms (though, honestly, I don't remember agreeing to that). 01:10, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Uhg. You know what? I'm taking Ivy's stance. You guys do what you want. 01:11, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

We are treating blue-gray and gray as synonyms, but we're treating light or dark gray as something different. As we should. If say, Brackenfur, were described as pale ginger, I do believe he'd get and alt. I don't think we ever agreed ginger and golden were synonyms so much as they're too similar for an alt, as it's golden's just a shade of ginger. Just as blue-gray's a shade of gray. But light or dark gray is a completely different shade, even if it came from the same color. Like plae ginger and golden. 01:42, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Calling tweaks
Can I ask you guys not to call them while they're still on the tweak nominations page? I was browsing through the archives (because I'm weird) and I notice that many chararts that could be, well, interesting had people asking "Can I do this if it passes?" as they vote yay, or something alone those lines. I dunno, it just doesn't seem fair that somebody should get to call dibs on an image before it even makes it to the tweak list. After all, a lot of us don't get to vote on these images. Breeze whisker  02:15, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree on this, other members of the project deserve a chance, too. 02:32, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

But we can still comment and ask if we can do the image. And if the vote passes most of us will be allowed to vote. I don't know but I think it teaches the non-SWs to check the tweak page often, so when they become a SW they wont abandon it. 12:27, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

The vote didn't pass. So for awhile yet, we can't vote. They haven't even been approved to be tweaked or redone yet and it kinda ruins the purpose of first come first serve. 68.103.240.28 15:11, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I really need to log in before I comment. Breeze whisker  15:26, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Wild makes a good point. As warriors, you can always just comment asking for the image. And it will teach you to visit the nomination page. 15:52, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

And if you want to get the right to vote, start up the discussion again and see if you can pull it off where I could not. 16:03, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I check the nominations page all the time, and I don't really care whether or not we get to vote. To me, calling dibs on an image seems as bad as reserving one before it's approved. That's frowned upon and I don't think this is any different. Breeze whisker  17:41, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Rogue charart for Redwillow
Just an idea, would Redwillow get a rogue charart since he sorta turned against ShadowClan? o3o Skt Wibbley wobbly, timey wimey 12:49, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I would say that he gets a charart. So that means that Hollowflight would get a rogue pixel too? 15:24, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

If this is true, then Hawkfrost and Thistleclaw need one as well (and maybe more that I've forgotten), and Tigerstar and Brokenstar's rogues should be their main image. 18:54, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Also, if this is true, wouldn't all the cats that turned their back on their Clans get a rogue charart? 20:28, 23, 04, 2012

No. We're discussing Redwillow because he joined the Dark Forest. Cats that are living could also join it; they don't have to be dead. We aren't just talking about cats who've broke the warrior code, we're talking about cats that have completely alienated themselves from the Clans altogether. 20:37, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, Oblivion. I think I've heard somewhere in the books that said something about the dark forest cats (residents) being rogues...? If so, I agree, so then Hawkfrost, Thistleclaw, Shredtail, Antpelt, Snowtuft, Silverhawk, and Sparrowfeather would get rogue chararts. 22:46, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Yes last I remember it was Spottedleaf who called them rogues, or said they didn't deserve to be warriors, something along the lines of that. But yes for most of the DF cats (not Ivy, Birch, or Mouse) no for shadowclanners who disbelieved in Starclan. 23:35, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I agree myself. You know, we already have a discussion about the DF cats. It can be found here, for those too lazy to search. I say we continue this discussion there, since that's basically what this is.

I didn't know we were taking the warriors images off, they should get both with the rogue as their main image, Spottedleaf said they didn't deserve to be warriors, not deputies, not apprentices, warriors, so they should keep thier images. 21:39, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Wildfire, if you can provide me with the exact quote, providing the page number as well form Fading Echoes, I will drop any argument against them having warrior images. Otherwise, we have no proof they were warriors. 21:51, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Found it. Page 230:


 * "They were rogues within their Clans. They are rogues now. That's why they're here. They never deserved to be called warriors."

That seems enough proof to me. 00:42, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Mottled vs. Speckled
Just for clarification. Is there any difference? 16:58, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I assume you're looking at Owl Feather, yes? Well, when I found that cite, I asked a few people in the chat, and they agreed that speckled is different enough from mottled to be placed in the trivia, but not enough for an alternate. I imagine this is simply because they would look too alike. 18:52, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

There kind of is. Speckled cat mottled cat 19:03 Mon Apr 23

But those images are different colours, so of course they'd look different. Since I fail too much to actually find images, let's compare Applefur to Owl Feather, imagining of course that Applefur's the same colour as Owl Feather. Not much difference between the two. 19:07, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm probably not one to talk since I don't really pay attention to anatomy (Just look at my charrie Wildstar ;) ) but I always thought speckled were smaller spots spread out more and mottled were any size spots but very close together. 23:25, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

No, I believe mottled and speckled can be very different things. First and foremost, mottled can be used to describe a number of different pelt types, such as smoke, ticked, and even tortoiseshell. Mottled is just patches of differing color, light and dark, over the base pelt (at least the way I make mottles). Speckles, on the other hand, the way I see it, are just darker flecks of fur over the base pelt. I know, it's a subtle difference, but a correctly made mottled and speckled cat are different pelt descriptions and should be treated thusly. And of course with smoke and tortoiseshell, those are -very- different from speckled 23:59, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

You think it'd warrent an alt.? 23:34, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Not an alternate, no, but they are different things, just like a tortoiseshell-and-white and a calico  23:40, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Pro-pro-Proposal
Hi guys! You know, this is kinda what I do, so...

Yeah. On with it.

I think tweak and redo nominations should be paused for a few weeks. The list of chararts that need to be taken care of has piled up enormously and we need to catch up before we suggest any more, in my opinion. We're leaving chararts undone to persue more interesting projects and eventually forgetting about them. Like Runningwind's kit image, which has remained un-matched to the other chararts since February. It'd just be temporary, of course.

I know my to-do list has piled up a bit. I'd like a while to just sit and do chararts that are already listed on the approved redo/tweak lists.

So, comments? I'm all for opinions and ideas, even if they contradict my own. Especially an idea for how long this pause should be. 23:36, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Like I said on Skype, this is a great idea. We've just been nominating images and not doing anything about them. 23:39, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

As I told you already Shelly, I agree. Those have been piling up for too long. I'm not sure how long we should stop it though, guess it really depends how fast we get through the list. I'd say if we got at least half way through we could probably open them back up, but I'm not sure. 00:11, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I was just thinking this the other day when I was debating on nominating Patchpelt. I agree. Those poor solid cats will never get done. I think we might as well go until the list is nearly done. We could always start a topic again when we think we've done enough of them. Breeze whisker  01:31, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree, let the ones on there get voted on then pause it for a while. 01:37, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, there is so many tweaks we need to get through, and we need to get them done. <span style="">06:25, 24, 04, 2012

You could always set a rule in which when the list hits X long (i'm not familiar enough with the number of items the list tolerable has, and what represents a backlog, so I won't suggest numbers) the tweaks process is closed to new tweaks until such time as the list is cleared. It would be a good way to force the cycling of "undesirable" tweaks so that people can repopulate the list with tweaks they really want to do. 13:42, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Good idea, Kit. I'm up for a rule that says ^^that^^. I'm also up for closing the tweak nominations page until those images are done. I, myself, have quite a backlog of images I'd like to get done, but I keep finding other images that are in need of being done. xD

That sounds good to me as well. Shall I put it to a vote, or shall we continue this discussion? 19:07, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Vote. This is probably the shortest discussion we've ever had... 19:19, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I was actually thinking about this today xD I agree with the voting. 21:36, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Agreeing. <span style="">02:09, 25, 04, 2012

I made the vote, then. Look here. 02:18, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Jumping the gun
Man, I am going to start getting a reputation for being the bad guy if I keep on like this. After this (though I will moderate my two dicussions that I have going) I do seriously need to take a break.

Chatter aside, you guys are really jumping the gun and need to hold your horses. We have not come to a conclusion about whether or not the residents of the Dark Forest who we don't know what they were before they died, what pixil they would get. I checked the discussion, and we have not decided on what they get, and even on the Redwillow discussion, we have not fully decided on it. Discuss it on that forum and make sure that the majority agrees, and give other members the chance to agree with your discussion. Guys, I'm sorry to be the bad-guy, but none of these images should even be reserved, let alone be on the approval page yet. Unless I'm missing some new forum that you guys created, then please link me so I can be updated on these matters. 05:28, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

This doesn't mean that my Redwillow rogue has to be declined, right? His image has nothing to do with those four DF residents. 19:23, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Jumping the gun or not, that discussion sat there for ten days without anyone saying anything. We were going somewhere with it, and the conversation died all of the sudden. I only reserved Snowtuft because someone told Mounty to make Sparrowfeather's alt a rogue image, and since that's the one on her page, I figured that was the lineart we were going with. If anything, then that image shouldn't be on her page at all.

I agree. I figured since Sparrowfeather got a rogue, and we had a pretty good consensus from a lot of people. We also had concrete evidence from the books (Spottedleaf) that these cats should be considered rogues. 19:35, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

You know what? Forget it. Do what you guys want... 20:29, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

No, I understand. I agree that the discussion was just sitting there, but honestly, the vote could have been at least put up on the news section of PCA's homepage (for others to see), and it should have been properly concluded. -.- 23:20, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I agree to that we are eager to get discussions out of the way and start putting it into effect; this is definitely not the first time either. However, I feel that most of this eagerness can be credited to confusion about when a consensus has been achieved or how long should a discussion be sitting there for. So perhaps we could add something to the guidelines like: majority (50% +) of the project agrees or perhaps, "Discussions are declared complete if there is 15 days of no comments". Or something. Just my two cents. 22:27, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

I think that is a good idea Atelda, that way even with discussions sitting there for ages, we still can find a conclusion. <span style="">01:54, 28, 04, 2012

Hawkheart
I'm not sure, but I have a... proposal? Do you think Hawkheart was described as a gray cat with gray flecks... or could the gray flecks have been there by... age or something? Because cats fur does turn gray when the cat gets old, and undoubtedly, Hawkheart had been around for a long time, since he was a warrior, then a medicine cat (though not mentioned in Into The Wild) I don't know if this is right. If it isn't, I'm sorry and I stand corrected, but I just thought I'd bring this idea to life. 12:55, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

What exactly are you proposing? He has an alt for it already, and the alt stays. We have no proof it's from age, and since it goes against description, he keeps the alt. 14:06, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Great Clan warrior images.
I didn't know whether to consult PC or PCA about this but I thought since it is about charcter images, I should come here. I LeopardClan, LionClan and TigerClan warriors should have either chararts or images like the pages Badger and Dog. I can get images (Just as anyone else can) from Google Images. But I was just suggesting maybe the Great Clan cats should have personal images. <span style="background-image:-moz-radial-gradient(center,#00FBFF,#FF00FF); -moz-border-radius: 12px 4px; -webkit-border-radius: 12px 4px; padding: 1px 5px 0px 5px;"> Berry Gradients, gradients...  12:19, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

There are a few problem with having blanks for the Great Clans. We'd basically need three different ones. I mean, look at the differences between lions, leopards, and tigers. Not to mention the anatomy in all three is very tricky. Breeze whisker  13:31, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I need to say no to thid idea sorry. Why? Because as Breezey said, the anatomy of these great cats is tricky, and there are only so little great clan characters, it would be too much work, really, and unneeded. 14:10, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

The great Clan characters are characters, so we can't give them images like we have on the badger or dog pages. And we just aren't making images for them. There's no point, and we don't even have descriptions for most of them aside from their species or the color of Sunstar's mane. 14:16, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I actually like the fact that the Great Clans should have images, but I don't think we should make entirely new blanks for so few characters. I was thinking about more of making the images, and for Sunpelt and Goldenstar, we could add manes. I personally would love to help with this if it passes, as I am an animal expert. 18:49, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

There's like what, 4 great clan warriors? 5? We don't even have full descriptions for them. They don't need images. And Bluestar, that'd be inaccurate, lions, leopards, and tigers are very different from house/feral cats. 20:19, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Hm. It's an idea, only... we only know about a few of them, and there's just not a ton of description... eh. Yeah, rethinking this and... no. Sorry. In other words, what Paleh said. 04:01, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Agreeing, I don't see the point when the anatomy is so tricky, and there are about only 1-2 cats with descriptions. <span style="">07:42, 26, 04, 2012

I'm agreeing as well. They're not animal pages, like badger or dog. And they're not domestic/feral cats, like what Warriors focuses on. We've got about, what? 5, maybe 6 that we know. Seriously, there's not enough. Seriously, that isn't big enough. 11:57, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Ashfoot alt queen
Mmkay, I wasn't going to even put this out here until Shelly told me I should otherwise it'd almost certainly get declined on the spot. I believe Ashfoot should get a non-pregnant queen alt because in the allegiances of Dawn (and maybe others, I don't have them on hand to check) in the allegiances she is listed to be in the nursery despite Crowpaw being an apprentice, and I don't think she could feasibly become pregnant with more kits in that time span and still be able to become deputy upon reaching their new home.I know it said she had three other kits, but even if they weren't apprenticed with Crowfeather, she would have still lost her pregnancy fat while taking care of them. 04:44, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm neutral about this. With the points Ibly gave, it makes sence that she'd get the alt. But then again, the Erin's don't really pay attention to genetics and all that, and you never know what might have happened to her. (I haven't read the New Prophecy in while, so I apologise if I'm wrong :/) <span style="">06:12, 27, 04, 2012

I'm with DJ, not to say Shelly's chararting skills are bad (or her reasons for that matter), but I've never really been a fan of the non-pregnant alt. If you're going by position it isn't really one, I guess it could be an "injury" where the lineart has to be edited. I don't know, just an opinion. But I think she should only get one if she is mentioned as a not-pregnant queen. 14:15, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Ivy, I still don't think so. She could have gotten pregnant right after having Crowfeather and she may have simply lost the kits before the journey. It's understandable, really, considering what WindClan went through right before leaving their old moors. Poisoned rabbits and starvation, any cat would lose their kits. In the end, we don't have proof that she just decided to stay in the nursery without kits. Same reason we didn't give Mosspelt an alt. queen. And Wildfire, I stand by those alts. Permanent queens that aren't pregnant wouldn't look like the normal queen chararts. They wouldn't have pregnant bellies. And it was the only way to resolve the argument about Squirrelflight. 14:21, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, since there is really no proof that she wasn't pregnant, I believe she doesn't get one. 22:12, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Quick Question
I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but what exactly makes a cat qualify for a non-pregnant charart? Shouldn't we give one to any queen that has stayed in the nursery after her kits were born? I mean, their belly's don't stay round forever...Feel free to shoot me down~(Ps, I appologize if this was in the guidelines made xP *is blind*) 23:10, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

It's not a dumb question, Pouncy. Basically, the non-pregnant queen charart is for she-cat who decide to stay in the nursery after their kits are apprenticed and aren't expecting kits themselves (i.e. Daisy was never a warrior, she stayed a queen after Berrynose, Hazeltail, and Mousewhisker were apprenticed.) Hope this helps! :) 23:32, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

The clincher is that we don't know when most of the queens are in the nursery because they choose to be and aren't pregnant. So we can only go with those that have mentioned that they're staying in the nursery, like Ferncloud, Daisy, and Clovertail. 23:37, April 27, 2012 (UTC)