Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Bluestar Alt?
She has a leader alt for being shown as completely blue for official art. I think she gets a star alt, because she is described as in StarClan in the ultimate guide, but I thought I better check. Oh, and I'll have this.-- 21:38, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

I think so, but no need to talk as if we'll snatch the StarClan image in three seconds. ~ Burntclaw  Yolo ♫ ♪ 00:45, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Tbh she's already blue, so I find that this will be rather unnecessary. 1:50 Tue Feb 10

Yeah I apologize if I sounded rude there. -- 02:01, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

nervously *nudge* the discussion. -- 22:03, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

If she's described as in StarClan, then she should probably get a blue alt. I don't know what others might say about this, though. you didn't sound rude to me 22:16 Thu Feb 12

Can I make the alt? -- 06:17, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Pretty sure you can ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 07:29, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

She already has a blue alt though? :o  05:34, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

It's the leader version though. 05:35, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

I think that was made before we created the StarClan blanks, actually.

What rank do we base Art alts on? It's a little confusing. do we give them ranks based on what rank they were in when the picture was shown or...? 05:04, March 5, 2015 (UTC)

I believe it's based on what rank the cat is when they are misdescribed. For instance, Tawnypelt would get a kit alt (her rank then) if she was misdescribed in Rising Storm instead of a warrior alt (her rank now). 12:42 Fri Mar 6

She means the cats on the cover. Tbh Im also confused about that. 12:44, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Again, it would be the rank that they are in that book. 12:51 Fri Mar 6

It's still confusing. I mean, Bluestar was a queen, Kit, apprentice etc in Bluestar's prophecy and she only got her leader. I think we need a clear baseline on what rank do we base Art alts on. 13:07, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

We do have a clear baseline. If Bluestar is called blue as a leader, then she gets it with a leader blank. If she's in StarClan, then it's a StarClan blank. It all depends on what her current ranking is at the time.

but we don't know what rank she was as shown in the picture...? Idk I might be wrong. 13:20, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Then she doesn't get the alt. If we don't know what rank she was, then she shouldn't get it- to give her a rank would be an assumption, simple as that. Unless it's the obvious ones like Jayfeather, Mothwing, Rock, ect.

"she gets a star alt, because she is described as in StarClan in the ultimate guide" She was described as in StarClan in TUG, which is the picture that her leader alt comes from. So, she would get a StarClan alt. i posted the image before i saw this sorry about that, feel free to decline it 00:02 Sat Mar 7

However, that would mean she gets an apprentice, warrior queen etc since she was mentioned as one in BP 05:58, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking that too Burntclaw, it's the same with The Ultimate Guide too. 02:22, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

Can we have a comment on this? 00:10, March 13, 2015 (UTC)

I think she should get a pure blue alt for kit, apprentice, warrior, queen and deputy too. sheesh, that's a lot. O.o 01:40, March 13, 2015 (UTC)

Also, if like to point out that the same picture shows on every single chapter, soo... 01:56, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain that's her adult image - she could've been a warrior, deputy, leader, etc. As to when that image is supposed to be. 23:46, March 16, 2015 (UTC)

I think we need to look at the name it labels the picture. Cats of the Clans and Ultimate Guide say Bluestar, so she is either leader or StarClan (I think both). Maybe it's the same with Bluestar's Prophecy, it is called Bluestar's prophecy. 23:55, March 16, 2015 (UTC)

Still, if she gets a leader and star rank, she should get an apprentice etc since she was mentioned as one. 08:09, March 17, 2015 (UTC)

Yea. It says in various books that she is solid black, solid blue, and white and blue. ~Spotteh *is confused*

Um, i dont recall ever seeing her being mentioned as pure black or blue and white. If you can provide cites, then sure. Otherwise im pretty sure only the blue alts warrant. 20:32, March 19, 2015 (UTC)

Cream Cats
This is a 'might', I'm not 100% on this, so I think we need to research this more.

On paragraph three, line three and at 2: Solids and Smokes paragraph 4 and finally, Line 10-11, all state that cream cats are always tabbies, even with faded markings, just like ginger/red cats.

So cats like Daisy, Berrynose, Rosepetal and maybe Molewhisker could be tabbies? I was just looking around on cat genes and thought I should bring this up.-- 06:17, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

I think we already decided that we're not going to add tabby stripes to cream cats a long while ago. Technically, I think it was said that all cats have some form of striping, save for....pure white and pure black cats, or something along those lines. While it's very possible unless they're called tabbies, I don't think it's necessary.

Not all cats have striping? Many do, but there is a gene that masks the stripes to create a solid color. However, all cats with the red gene are tabbies because the solid gene doesn't work without the black gene. Cream cats are the dilute form of ginger. They are all tabbies no matter what. 3:34 Mon Feb 23 2015

I think it only counts for pure cream cats. Not like brown/gray and cream cats like Ferretclaw or siamese cats like Rose. From memory, I don't think we have that many characters that are pure cream. —Preceding unsigned comment added by

It wouldn't. Ferretclaw is technically a diluted tortoiseshell, and Siamese cats are partly albino. It wouldn't only apply to cats described as just "cream." 4:23 Mon Feb 23 2015

 00:35, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

not all tortoiseshells have stripes on their ginger patches here and gingers are all tabbies so by that logic we'd have to tweak/redo all tortoiseshells so they could have visible stripes

in all seriousness though, yeah gotta agree with Skye, i think it was decided a long time ago we'd not add stripes to creams 00:39, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

Um, I think creamis basically pale orange so... 00:23, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

I'm torn on this. While I agree that the cream cats should in theory have stripes, I also feel that it would just cause unnecessary tweaking. Also, with what Beebs said, if we tweak the cream cats we should tweak the ginger tortoiseshells as well. If we do that, though, does that mean that all ginger tortoiseshells are torbies by default, and should be from now on? 12:46 Fri Mar 6

if you look here the ginger torties have very faint tabby around the face, so... 21:38, March 10, 2015 (UTC)

We have never made torbies mandatory and I don't think we should start now. That is way too many unnecessary tweaks. If you want to make yours in the future a torbie, then fine, but I really don't think we need to get so into realism like that. Honestly, I don't think we even need to tweak anything at all. This reminds me of the flecked cats have stripes thing which we don't enforce, but it's allowed. Optional is cool and all, but this seems like a really crappy way to get more tweaks on perfectly fine images. =/

Yeah, I honestly just think tweaking the fully cream cats is it. I also think the tortoiseshell's are fine. 21:53, March 10, 2015 (UTC)

Like whats been said above, i think the torties are fine, but we should tweak the fully cream-colored cats. They /are/ a form of ginger, afterall. 18:38, March 14, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Breeze. It also seems kind of hypocritical (not trying to be offensive; I just can't think of a better word) since we gave ginger cats stripes, and cream is the diluted form of ginger. 20:38, March 19, 2015 (UTC)

There aren't many full-cream cats IIRC so that seems manageable. I dont think ones that are only partially cream should be tweaked, though. 20:44 Thu Mar 19

Can we get some more opinions on this? 09:14, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

There aren't many full cream cats so it doesn't need so much work 09:10, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

For Approval Page
I just think that when a picture is put up for approval, we need to be more aware of the character's description, to avoid needing a tweak/redo in the future. Either we click the link to see the description or like the tweak page where we list something, we could list the character's description (the parts that will affect the charart, because there are characters with very long descriptions). I think it will help avoid future tweaking, cause there is a lot happening as it is. 22:07, March 17, 2015 (UTC)

maybe people should stop being so lazy? its not that hard to click the link in the characters name (almost everyone links to the character in their names so) and read a description quickly ._. 06:40, March 18, 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, people just need to stop being picky and nominating cats just to have something to work on. Most people /do/ look at their profiles, especially when they're trying to match another image. Its really unneeded when all you need to do is click a link or search it up. 20:37, March 19, 2015 (UTC)

Silverstream's/Leafstar's alt
I'm sorry if this seems like a dumb question, but why are the blue alts and white and brown alts for Silverstream and Leafstar removed? I was just wondering.m 01:22, March 21, 2015 (UTC)

I think the brown and white Leafstar was dismissed because the white could be cream, a specific shade. I can't remember if that was it... About Silverstream, wasn't it because we didn't know the rank she was in that picture? She could've been any rank - queen, warrior, StarClan, etc. 15:49, March 21, 2015 (UTC)

Leafstar's was removed because it looks brown and cream, which is her actual description.

I thought the project already had a discussion to re-add Silverstream and Millie's old alts? 19:07, March 22, 2015 (UTC)

Though this is only coming from a (sleepy) kit, I'm not sure about Silverstream's alt being re-added, but for Millie's, I the alts might be re-added since there are manga alts.

It was agreed that they would be re added already. I think we should add them back. 04:00, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

Join Request
May I join the project? I'll be very active, especially on weekends. 19:52, March 22, 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I'll add you in. Welcome to the PCA. 20:18, March 22, 2015 (UTC)

Icebreeze ~ Join Request
I'd like to join PCA and contribute some art to the wiki (if you will have me, of course) 21:19, March 23, 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I'll add you in. Welcome to the PCA! 21:49, March 23, 2015 (UTC)

Stepping Down
After careful thought, I've decided to give up my position as Senior Warrior. I'm not as active as I should be, and I probably won't become more active. There are enough senior warriors that will make up for my leave, but I just can't hold this position anymore.

Thank you for giving this position to me, but now's the time that I need to let go of it. 22:44 Wed Mar 25

Aww, thanks for your dedication to the project as a senior warrior. :) 22:52, March 25, 2015 (UTC)

We thank you for your dedication to PCA, Hawky. May StarClan light your path :) 01:38, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

Aww D: damn. You deserved it, though! It's such a shame for you to let your place go, but I know you'll still be a brilliant warrior. Thank you for everything you've done in the PCA, Hawky. 08:31, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

Sad to see you step down, Hawk. Thank you for all of the dedication you've given the project so far, and i hope to see you regain your position in the future. You really did deserve it. =) 02:24, March 29, 2015 (UTC)

Join
Can I join PCA? Poppyheart212 (talk) 23:23, March 25, 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I'll add ya in. Welcome to the PCA. 23:25, March 25, 2015 (UTC)

Join
I want to join the PCA. I'm really expieranced with Charart!! Lilacfoot (talk) 19:52, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

Sure I'll add you in. Read the Guidelines and consult the Apprentice tutorials if you need them. 00:24, March 27, 2015 (UTC)

join
Hello everyone! I've been thinking about joining so can I join the PCA? Not to boast,but I'm pretty good at making chararts...

Darkfire~Aidan (talk) 13:43, March 27, 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I'll add you in. Welcome to the PCA! 00:33, March 28, 2015 (UTC)

Silverstream Apprentice and Alt
I was looking through Fire and Ice yesterday, and at one point, on page 163, Fireheart says to Silverstream, "You're hardly more than an apprentice." I was wondering if that would qualify for her getting an apprentice image. Also, she is said to have silver stripes instead of black on page 128. She got an alt for being called silver-striped as a StarClanner, so wouldn't she get an alt for it as a warrior, for this instance? 16:00, March 27, 2015 (UTC)

I doubt it. Its not specifically saying she is/was an apprentice, more like he was trying to say that she looked like one. 20:51, March 27, 2015 (UTC)

I think the stripe one counts, since we have done alts for a change of stripes. I doubt the apprentice would count, though, he was just comparing her with one, and he didn't actuslly say she was one. 02:31, March 29, 2015 (UTC)

Fur Lengths?
This might (it does) sound dumb, but I noticed all WinClanners are short furred (because they need to run fast and be able to fit into tunnels?) except for Thistlepaw because she was mentioned to be long furred. So I'm wondering do RiverClanners need to all be long furred? They have a characteristic of having thick pelts. 01:31, March 28, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. All WindClan cats are short-furred by default, and all RiverClan cats are long-furred by default. On that same note, thick fur does not mean long fur.

Oh right I've seen a thick furred short furred just recently oops. But thanks for letting me make sure anyways :) 01:56, March 28, 2015 (UTC)

Re-join
This time I'll stay active I swear. May I? -Feather 20:45, March 31, 2015 (UTC)

Of course! Welcome back, Feather! I'm sure you already know the guidelines. 04:46, April 1, 2015 (UTC)

Lilyheart
My Lilyheart image got declined. How long do I have to wait before I post her again? 04:44, April 1, 2015 (UTC)

A week, I persume. 04:46, April 1, 2015 (UTC)

It got declined because you didn't wait until it was archived. tbh, I've made people wait sometimes up to three days- and in that time, someone else technically has a right to take it should they wish.

Join
Can I join the project? 18:57, April 1, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'll add you in, I promoted you to apprentice rank. ;) 23:25, April 1, 2015 (UTC)

Join
Can I join your project, please? ✿Bird ride23✿  Colorful world is around me  19:15, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing, ill add you in. Be sure to review the guidelines before reserving and posting an image. Welcome to PCA! 20:31, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Grey and Silver+orange and pale/dark ginger
K I hope I don't sound random but isn't grey just a partial of silver? Simultaneously isn't Orange just a partial of dark/pale ginger? I dunno I just saw some cats had alts like this and decided to bring this up 03:56, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

Gray and silver are different. Silver tabbies can only have black stripes, and gray is just like a brown tabby- the stripes can be a darker version of the base. Silver-gray is a specific shade, however. But if they're just called a silver tabby, then it's different from a gray tabby. idk about orange and dark/pale ginger, though. I always thought ginger was more red, and orange was..well, orange.

Just to say, I just looked up ginger, it says "a reddish yellow or orange brown color" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 04:07, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

grey and silver are definitely different, but even if you google orange cat, you get so many different varieties of ginger cats. always seemed redundant to me to have alts for it. 04:10, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

For me I thought ginger was more yellow than orange >.> 03:48, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Silver and gray are different, but Gray-silver is different too, like golden and brown is different, but so is golden-brown. Didn't one of the Erin's say that they see ginger as a orange colour? Someone posted a link about it here. 08:53, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Leader blanks for non-clan leaders
I've been reading through the archives, and I've noticed this topic has been brought up many times, but has kept being ignored. So I'd like to bring this up again.

Basically, I think Furled Bracken, Stone Song and Jingo should get leader blanks, as they were specifically called leaders, especially Furled Bracken and Stone Song. I know the leader blanks are only for clan cats, but we can easily allow them to be used on non clan leaders.

Thoughts? 09:19, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

No. While it seems plausible to give them leader blanks since they /were/ technically leaders, they never recieved nine lives or a leader name from starclan. It could also confuse anons and guests to the wiki browsing through the pages to see a rogue/loner with a clan leader image. Its unnecessary since theres only a handful of cats who'd need it, and even if they are the leader figure to some cats, they're /still/ rogues and loners. Its 5am, so forgive me if im not making any sense.. x.x 09:11, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

I'm neither agreeing or diagreeing, just poking in to say that the amount doesn't matter. after all, there's only 3 stoneteller blanks in use and likely won't go above 5 if that ever changes. 09:14, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

We've already said no multiple times. I don't understand why this keeps being brought up- it seems like an excuse for more images and each time we've come to the consensus that they do not get leader images- majority rules.

From what I've seen, it keep getting ignored whenever it has been brought up ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but okay. I only brought it up because I thought it was unfinished topic. 11:44, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

It's not unfinished- we've already said multiple times (going back long before most of the active users joined) that they don't get leader images, since the leader blanks are for those who've been recognized as leaders by StarClan, with their names, their nine lives, who've actually been leader for a short time (Brightwhisker's case), ect. Jingo, Furled Bracken, and Stone Song do not meet the qualifications to obtain a leader image. It doesn't get ignored- not getting the answer you want isn't ignoring a topic. The discussions are archived' because they sit there with no comments, thus ending the debate.

This seems quite ignored to me, nobody responded to Jayie after they posted their comment (except for Stealth, who wasn't replied to too) so I thought I'd bring it up again, to see what you all think. And it's not and excuse to make more chararts- suggesting a new idea isn't really an excuse, Imho. So if it's disagreed that they would get images then I'm cool with that. 12:46, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

Did Graywing get his nine lives? 0.0 02:02, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

If it goes without comments, I archive it. That's considered finished, since no one else wanted to continue the discussion. We also have a citation for Graywing, Bramble, hence why he has a leader image. The citation for that comes long before Dawn of the Clans. Hell, I think that was a Secrets of the Clans cite, which has probably been around longer than I've been on the wiki...

I think they get blanks, but not Clan Leader blanks. Maybe new ones need to be made or something. Please don't say I'm trying to make art to do, because I'm not like that. There's plenty of art to do anyway. 08:51, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Join request
May I join in this project? :3 17:45, April 8, 2015 (UTC)

Of course, i'll add you in now. Be sure to review the guidelines before reserving and posting an image. Welcome to PCA! 05:23, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Mapleshade
I've been thinking about this for quite awhile, and looking at the new cover of Mapleshade's Vengeance and her most recent descriptions, shouldnt we revert her main images back to her ginger and white alts? This'll probably get shot down, but it seems like she's described as ginger and white the majority of the time, opposed to her tortie description. 05:19, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that belongs in PC, not PCA. 11:03, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Even though it may belong in PC instead of PCA, I'm very unsure about this one. It'll have to be confirmed by the Erins first, to which her canon description is.

She was mentioned to be ginger and white waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy more than she was mentioned as tortoiseshell, I agree that she should be ginger and white. 09:12, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Joining
May I please join, as well? ✺♥ Vibrant  Passion  ♥✺ 15:05, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Sure I'll add you in. Read the Guidelines and consult the Apprentice tutorials if you need them. 13:47, April 11, 2015 (UTC)

Join?
May I please join this Project? I love making Chararts 11:31, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

Sure I'll add you in. Read the Guidelines and consult the Apprentice tutorials if you need them. 13:47, April 11, 2015 (UTC)

Join
Hello! I would like to join this project, and I'm already a little experienced with making chararts. Shadowstarz (talk) 21:02, April 11, 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I'll add ya in as a lil kit. Welcome to the PCA! 02:35, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Warrior/deputy/medicine cat blanks
Alright, let's get to the point. The warrior blanks need a redo.

Hear me out here, please. This topic has come into the chat a couple times now, and Jayce (as well as the others in the chat at the time) thinks now's a good time to bring this up. Or, probably foty-seven hours ago by the time I finish typing this.

The warrior blanks (And by extension, the deputies and medicine cats) have quite a few anatomical issues. Let's bring in an image of a cat in basically the same position. This one is good. Ignore the massive watermarks.

First thing I'm gonna have you look at is the spine. Compare for a minute- In the photo, the cat's back is curved outwards. That's natural. However, the warrior blanks simply have straight spines, and in order for that to happen on a real cat they'd need to have a broken spine. And then be precariously propped up. Or they could sit in a really awkward position, but then they still wouldn't be bent the same way as in the warrior blanks, and that'd just be painful. Poor kitties.

Second off is the tail. The image above doesn't have the tail in the same position, I'm afraid, so you'll just have to trust me. A cat's tail wouldn't be that straight. It'd be an awkward way for the cat to be sitting, and it'd be hard for them to get it as straight as a needle like that. The longhairs aren't so straight, but are bent somewhat awkwardly and just don't look long haired.

So that's the two biggest issues. There's no shoulder, or upper foreleg at all, the chin and head don't seem to attach to the body properly, the front legs attach to the chest far too low down (related to not having a shoulder, it basically looks like the forelegs are portruding from the belly), the haunches are just huge circles (in a standing position, it'd be like this, as compared to this), the muzzle doesn't seem to be the right shape (might just be me though), and the paws seem a bit... long? (also might just be me)

I also feel like medicine cats are too different a rank to look almost identicle to warriors. MCAs are fine since they're both apprentices, but MCs and warriors are totally different. Prey-hunters and Cave-guards get separate blanks, why should medicine cats just be warriors with herbs in their mouths?

Now, I know this would be a huge project. There's precisely four hundred and sixty-five images that would be redone, not counting the deputies and med cats. However, by the time this discussion is over most of the new images will be finished. After that, it appears that the next release is going to be in September. By September, we would have at least a quarter of the warriors done. Jayce suggested that doing the warriors first would be best, and then doing the MCs and deputies after that.

So, what are all of your opinions on this? I thiiink I've covered it all, but if anybody else sees anything I've missed then please mention it ^_^ If I've come across as rude, or anything like that, then my sincerest apologies. 22:58, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

You've literally said everything we need to hear. And I agree 00:03, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. Ive noticed this for a long time now, and if i had known i wasnt the only one i wouldve mentioned this a long time ago. It may take awhile, but itll be worth it. 00:52, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

What I can say is, thanks for saying all these. I've been thinking about the warrior blank for absolutely ages, but I didn't say it. Tbh I was just thinking about this last night. I do agree with you, but considering that it'll be a big project to be done, I think we should let everyone agree with this. the warrior blank looks like a fox/dog! 01:09, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Hi guys I know I'm no longer a part of the wiki anymore, but hear me out a little bit. For as long as I was a member, we always argued that we didn't have to be perfectly realistic. And honestly, none of the blanks are truly perfect. All of them have flaws or unrealistic aspects in some way, and there's no real helping that. I am personally against this redo, especially since it encompasses so many images. Tabby stripes aren't perfectly realistic in every image, some people still don't shade realistically as if it were a real body, not everyone uses textures, not everyone has mottled tabby appearances and still does big, blotchy patches even without the proper amounts of white on the body, and honestly, if we're going to be this picky, I feel as if you'd need to fix those too, since those also aren't perfectly realistic.

Tweaks and redos used to be a special thing, and PCA would close for periods between books because there weren't images to do, and the wiki still operated fine, and I feel as if everyone's gotten to the point where we're scraping for things to do in order to seem active in the project. Closing PCA between books should theoretically boost activity in other aspects of the wiki, as PCA used to be a privilege- a sort of treat for working so hard between books on other aspects of wiki life, by allowing people to participate in the "fun art project".

With 400+ images to redo, I honestly feel like this mission is ridiculous, and if this passes, it will take years to complete it all. Is it really worth going through this big of a struggle for minor details? 01:22, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I actually see your point, Leggy. Maybe we should get a vote on this instead. While I do agree that the blank does look extremely unrealistic (no offense to the OA), it would be a huge stress for PCA to redo 400< images. I am not sure whether I agree or not. 01:28, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Foxy, that's exactly what I mean. It's a hard decision for everyone, thinking about 500+ images including the meds and deputies 01:36, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

You actually have a very good point, Leggy. I agree with the vote - it would be alot easier to see what the /whole/ project majority would want. Im honestly unsure about this now. 02:04, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

if you really feel the medicine cat blanks need a change then change THEM theres not nearly as many of them. an 400+ images is just too much, honestly. :/ 03:11, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I definitely agree with the medicine cats being redone, but I'm not so sure with the Warriors though. 04:26, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, this is a toughy. I grew up with cats (and still have them) so I agree that they can be changed, but that is a lot of images. I think the medicine cat is reasonable, as deputy and warrior is similar, it's just the deputy has extra responsibilities and respect, but the medicine cat is different. I think an idea for the tail is to make it curve over their back, my cat does it all the time, even when standing up. I'm not judging because we don't have enough art to do (I sometimes think there is too much, the Erin's release a lot of books these days) a tweak like this would be a bit overwhelming, but if were very organised and civilized, it's doable. 05:09, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I personally feel that the blanks could do for a tweak. However that might also be a bit difficult. 05:31, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to disagree or agree with anything, but I'd like to point out that if the blanks have an anatomy problem then the sooner they get re-done, the less images we would need to do. 400 is a huge amount and = a lot of stress, but it's still possible if we work hard. 07:47, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

maybe but the blanks aren't the first priority of this wiki and this energy could be better put into finishing off the multiple artciles that are missing sections. this can easily be brought up later? 08:07, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, blanks aren't the first priority, but PCA is a project running itself, with its own concerns. If the blanks have a problem and need to be redone then the sooner the better, the time is quite right now since the next book is released in September, which is 5 months away. I'm neutral on this, on one hand the blanks are a little unrealistic, but on the other its just too much stress, with 500> images to be done. I am happy to whatever we decide on. 08:16, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

ok but theres still chararts to do, plus if this does go through then I don't see why it can't wait until the end of the dawn of the clans? because then we wont have anything apart from super editions/novellas if theres any released during that time and then we have to wait until the new series. 08:18, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

We can decide on that later. For now we have to decide if we agree with Shinx. And in my opinion the five month time is quite a bit, and since redoing the warriors would count as redone images the dotc chararts can be done at the same time. 08:22, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

uh no, they would be new images, so they would have to go through the approval process. it can go to a vote or whatever, but after that people can learn to wait, images aren't the most important thing. 08:24, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

The queens were redone images? 08:25, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

no, they went through the approval pricess but owing to the amount it was allowed to be done aside another image. while that could be done here, I still think it's better to wait until dotc is done, as there's only one book to go as it is. 08:27, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah that's what I was trying to say, apologizes for being unclear. 08:30, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

The point isn't that it needs to be perfect, nor am I trying to be ridiculously nitpicky. The problem is, the warrior blanks just have a //lot// of problems, more than the rest of the blanks (well, some of the other blanks bug me too, but still). PCA has done large projects like this in the past- the apprentices were done in 2011 and the queens just last year. Sure, neither of them had even close to 465 images (More like a hundred or so each?), but it was still a lot. I honestly don't care about 200% realism at all, and if I did I'd be a bit of a hypocrite.

While I see your point, Leggy, I also have to disagree. I'm not scraping for things to do, if I were I certainly wouldn't pick the warriors of all things. And again, the warrior blanks have enough errors I do think they could do with at least a tweak. It may just be me, but I see more issues on these than I did on the old queens, to be honest.

It wouldn't have to be all done immediately. If this were to pass, it could wait until DotC is over. I really don't care when it's done. After DotC is actually a good time, since we have the allegiances to TAQ, which probably gives us at least most of the new chararts for that book dealt with.

Yes, it'd take a long, long time. But I think we could probably do it. 10:11, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

While I do agree that the anatomy is completely wrong, the amount of images we'd have to redo is what's making me lean toward not doing this. Warriors alone, there's 465 images to redo, not to mention, at least 100 more counting the deputies and medicine cats. Yes, we have done huge projects before, however, there are only 168 queens, and 294 apprentices. Those numbers were much lower in 2011, as there were not as many books out - these numbers are the amount of images currently.

Doing this, even after the DoTC arc is finished, would be way too much, and while I support the redo of the blanks, the amount of images we'd have to redo would take more than months, it could take a year or two, considering each image has to go through the approval process, and I really don't think we should be putting ourselves through something like that. 10:35, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I totally agree the blanks need help, but like it's been said, it would take many months to do them. If it passes, maybe the PCA members can do 2-3 at a time so they can get it done faster? Just a suggestion. 12:53, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I thought it was a good thing to bring up, given how fast-paced this project can get when there's something that they want done. They told us it was a suicide mission to do the apprentice blanks, the loner blanks, and the rogue blanks (which honestly, were all pretty close in time to each other), and we proved that we could get everything done. Given the current amount of the warrior images, and the amount of people we have, it's still possible to get it done- we've allowed users to have two "redone blank" images on the approval page- and I'd be willing to allow three if and only if they can handle the workload. I don't want to see users taking three images on at a time if they can barely work on one.

That being said, the anatomical issues on the warriors, deputies, and medicine cats are flat out bad, and have issues that a "tweak" of the blanks wouldn't fix. Alternatively, we could always redo the deputies first, and then move on to the medicine cats, and then see where we are after that. If it proves to be too much of a workload, then we won't do the warriors. Or, we could always do the warriors in waves- say... in alphabetical order? Perhaps do warriors beginning with the letters A-F for a while, and then when they're done, move onto the next group, and then the next group, and then finally, the alternates? It's totally possible to do this if you put your mind to it- the amount of blanks we have is just a number.

I know I'm not in PCA or even allowed to fix more than a typo on this wiki, but I definitely agree that at the very least medicine cats should get new blanks. I've always hated the warrior blanks for some reason, especially the tail on the shorthair looking weird, and I agree with the point that medicine cats should get a new pose completely. I'll even join PCA to help, somehow, if this sounds really selfish that someone who doesn't take their time to do all this, is helping push those who do all the work to do more. But I can at least offer my opinion as a voice of the people not in PCA. Cheetodust (talk) 14:00, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I don't see the point of redoing 400+ images over minor anatomical issues. If they're gonna be changed at all, I think tweaking the blanks is fine. If in doubt, like some people have suggested - maybe we could just redo the meddie and deputy blanks. All those warrior images will take too long, I think, if each member does one at a time. However, I'm with Tiger, if the warrior blanks have to be tweaked/redone - each user = two redone blanks at a time. 14:19, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget about the shorthaired cats' tails. The tips aren't supposed to be so round. It literally looks like a cylinder. I think we need to make them a bit pointed, with some fluff. Every cat has a little bit of fluff, unless specifically stated as 'extremely short-haired'. Also the warrior blanks' tails need to be less....string-like? They're too thin, thus why most of the people have a hard time defining shading and light on them. They should be more furry, per se. 14:24, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Hi I would like to really point out how popular this project is and how you guys are considering doing this massive project while there are other aspects of the wiki that still have a ton of work that still need to be done. The wiki works as a whole. For my time on the wiki, PCA was a reward for working so hard, and if other aspects of the wiki were lacking, (like whole book sections being empty on pages when the book's been out for some time) the project was closed until further notice. This area of the wiki still receives the most attention because it is the fun art project, but there's other things here that need an equal amount of work done, if not more. I am still highly against this, however, I don't get a vote. Nonetheless, I would highly recommend putting this off until after the current arc of books is done and there's a larger gap in the rate of books being published. Do not neglect the other projects. 23:20, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

To be honest considering that there's over 600 images that would have to be redone i don't think it'd be worth it unless we were to up the redone image count, however it's up to you all to decide how this will go so [shrug emoji]

Gotta agree with Leg - there's a lot of projects that could use some attention, and with Arc 6 coming out rather soon after DotC no. 6... well, it's up to you guys - majority rules, after all. 23:25, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right about the blanks as far as realism, but they don't have to be totally realistic. Redoing 600+ images for this seems to be unnecessary to me. And for the medicine cat blanks, I honestly think they're fine. They represent medicine cats just fine, imo. But I'm happy with whatever you all decide. 23:39, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

You guys have got to be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me, right? Cut it out with all of these "realism" excuses. You guys just want more art, and that's ''it. ''We NEVER had a problem with realism with these blanks. What's wrong with them? They're cats. They look like cats. They've got paws, a tail, a muzzle, and a head. What is so unrealistic about that? What about the medicine cats? It's the same thing with herbs. There is NOTHING wrong with the blanks, and there's no need to redo 400 images because you don't like the blanks. The blanks are fine. You don't need to make them look like you actually studied a cat for 72 hours straight and spent the entire 72 hours staring at them and jotting down their every movement. No. There is no need to redo these blanks. They do not have to be redone. 23:46, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to go back to my point before- If the warriors have issues, redo them now and the less images we would have to do in the future if somebody else brings this up again. And also, it's not an impossible project to do, and not only that, not doing something because "there are other projects" and "it's too much" is kind of lazy. PCA is PCA and is NOT PC or PB, if those chapter pages need to be finished, it shouldn't hinder PCA's work, PCA does art. if PCA needs art, not doing them because "the other projects need work" is... Sounds like an excuse? 00:44, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Like it was said before, instead of debating, we should just vote to see the outcome, even if this topic is fairly new. 02:37, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, let's honestly start the vote instead of stabbing each other's backs 02:52, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah this is getting us no where, and it's a little bit daunting and out of control. A fair vote will sort this. 04:03, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with whats been said above. A fair vote would reduce the hositility and stress. 04:10, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, how do we start it? 04:59, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Burntclaw, I'm going to call out something that you said really quickly: PCA isn't even needed on this wiki. In case everyone here has forgotten, Warriors Wiki is an encyclopedia, and unless you're a first grader or using a children's encyclopedia, the average one lacks images for every entry in it. Books like Bramblestar's Storm have been out since August yet entries for it are still missing from major characters' pages, like Bumblestripe. PCA has always been a treat- a reward for work done in other projects. It's like dessert after a meal. If only dessert is being eaten, then you'll die from such unhealthy eating habits. If the wiki is only cranking out artwork, then what's the damn point?

Furthermore, the warrior blanks have the same number of issues as the ancient blanks or the starclanners or the leaders, even, so why aren't we redoing those as well? None of them look like a realistic, in-the-flesh cat. People don't have the proper sized tortoiseshell patches corresponding with the amount of white they put on the cat, so we should fix those too, as those aren't realistic, and there is a proven direct correlation between the two. All tortoiseshells need stripes then, for that matter, and while we're at it, all of the cats except for absolute solids need facial tabby markings, as almost every cat has them. Why stop there?

There is a point in which things need to be contained and a foot needs to be put down, and when the project lead is even hesitant to do something, then y'all need to pay damn attention. That person worked their ass off to get where they are now, and they know better than apprentices or mere warriors. If they don't know what they're doing, then the whole project is screwed. And no, don't just skip to a vote, because if valid points are being raised and there aren't sufficient counterclaims, then a vote isn't needed. There has never been a vote for Jingo needing a leader blank, even if it was just brought up, because people discussed the need for such images on a talk page. That's why discussions are made and what the damn page itself is for. If the discussion is "daunting" and "out-of-control", then you need to control it before you start a vote with such wild accusations still being uncontrolled. You cannot have a calm, fair vote if such major issues like this are being ignored and no counter is being raised for them.

If we redo the warriors, I say we redo the ancients, starclanners, apprentices, and all the other blnaks while we're at it, for they also contain stylistic choices by the artist in them, and can also be argued to be incorrect anatomically if we're going to get this nit-picky. 05:01, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

This... is why we want a vote. Discussing is much more chance of arguing, and "you need to control it", I am not senior warrior or above. So I'm going to do my best with that and say, CALM DOWN! discussions are made to have replies, while votes are not, so are more easily controlled. Everyone's given a good opinion, let's make sure everyone's give their side and everyone's considered both sides, then go for a vote. I believe that's the best way to go. 05:13, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

A vote is a waste of time if it can be argued on a talk page: you only go to a vote if it seems something might be passed. We need discussion and frankly, this has been an incredibly short one. Give it another week or two before going to a vote, because you're all jumping the gun a bit by going to one now. Trust me, I've been a senior warrior in this project, a rollback on this wiki for my entire duration here, and a leader in PB, so I believe I have a fair grasp of when a vote is needed and when something can be fixed on a talkpage. 05:27, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

We could just wait until the series is over and then bring up redoing them again. I mean there are a LOT of blanks it would take FOREVER. There'd be tons of time if we reconsidered when the series has finally ended. 5:30 Thu Apr 16 2015

Okay, I know PCA isn't needed, thank you, and I'm not a first grader who reads children books. But now that PCA is here- a project itself, it has work to do. Are there problems? Fix them, the end. If we are going to avoid issues like this and avoid it because it's "too much", then I'd say close PCA if it bugs people so much. Also, now that it's up, there's no point in waiting, let's just try and get this settled. 05:41, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

I'm just gonna pop in here and say we are not closing PCA. It was a hellish mistake and none of the people who said to close it even stayed to help. >.>

There is a point in waiting as it would mean that there would be nothing else for us to do later if the series is at a close. If we wanted to redo these blanks we should have done them in the first few books of DOTC when there were less characters being introduced, not when we're getting to the point where we'll have many new warriors again and a sixth series to work on. Nobody is saying we need to close PCA - we tried that. But we also shouldn't tackle such a big project when the other projects are still in full swing and need help. Basically, if we ever redo these blanks they should be done as a final project to complete the wiki.

Also votes are only held if we can't come to a consensus through extensive discussion or as a way to make a record for huge decisions.

And also, not all of us ended up having the time to commit to the wiki after the closure of PCA. <span style="">5:51 Thu Apr 16 2015

I was referring to the people who came back just to support closing the project, then up and left again. Many of those people were active on other wikis and external websites- but that's a matter for a different day. Waiting until the series ends is a nice alternative, though.

If the Warriors have major atanomy problems, then not redoing/tweaking them because "it's too much" or "PCA is not important" is NOT helping for PCA to keep open. If apparently effort shouldn't be put into the project just because it's "it's not important" then it should be closed. But guys, PCA isn't a project that hinders the wiki, and now that it's here, problems in the project should be fixed. And the TAQ characters are already out, so that means their images would be done and we would have not much to worry about. And what about the 5 month period until POS is out? We should finish this discussion now, and we can sort this all out in the 5 month period. 06:13, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Gonna slide in here. If you're insinuating that we might be able to get all the 500+ images redone in a period of five months, you're wrong. It will take at the very least double, possibly triple that amount of time. Personally, I think that if we are doing this, it should be done after the series is completely finished, and a good chunk of the articles are done.

Also, I think what they're trying to say is that PCA has always attracted the most users, since it involves making art, rather than writing out character pages and looking up citations and all that. The amount of users in PCA, compared to the amount in PC, PB, PW, and PR is much higher, and that's to be expected. People want to make images, there aren't many who want to write out articles. This is an encyclopedia, and if the character pages aren't done...what's the point? An encyclopedia is valued for its information, and if the information isn't there, then there's not exactly a point, is there? People glance at the images for maybe two seconds, and move on. They read the articles for a lot longer. In my opinion, we should put PCA on the backburner and focus on what the people are going to read, because we're a valid source of information, for the authors themselves. 10:38, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

This is getting big, have a forum. 11:44, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Cats of the Park
Right, PC has made it that Cats of the Park is it's own rank. I think now it's for PCA to decide about the charart. Do we make a new one? Use the loner/rogue blank? I also think that giving the loner blank a little tweak, (like the Clan leader and healer blanks or something) is not a bad idea either. 05:16, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Loner 07:38, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

I think loner would be more appropriate than rogue 12:50, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

I agree that a loner should be used, but maybe we could do a small edit so it's noticeable that it's from the CotP. 12:53, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

For some reason I keep on thinking about giving them ribbons. I agree with that, but what should we edit? Maybe make their tail higher? Or make all four of their paws on the ground?? 13:18, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Possibly - or the neck could be raised, so that the cat is looking up. 19:02, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

We should definitely use the loner blank. And I like Sorrel's idea of having the cat looking up. 20:57, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe we can tweak the loner a bit to look like they are meditating a bit. Maybe legs a little straighter and on the ground like Bramblesnow's idea, or Sorreltail's idea where they are looking up. (with eyes closed?? So they actually look in meditation?) 23:02, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Personally, i like Sorrel's idea. Perhaps we could just have the cats looking up with all their paws on the ground? I don't know, it seems to diferintiate it a little more. Im up for whatever ya'll decide to do, though. 23:31, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, the cats looking up is a good idea, however is it possible for us to confuse the loner blanks and the modified versions? <span style="">0:12 Fri Apr 17

If they aren't loners, actually, they shouldn't get loner blanks, in my opinion. 00:20, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

True. I thought of that before, that they do live together (aka not alone), but Ravenpaw, Barley and Jingo's group all used the loner blank as well. Anyway, if the loner's heads are raised with four paws on the ground, that'll just be exactly like the to-be blank. 00:55, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Why tweak the loners? They aren't loners. Also, if we tweak the loners we would need Mounty's permission, which she isn't active anymore. 02:36, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, that would be difficult if the OA isn't around. Maybe a new blank is a better way, because they are not really "alone" and certaintly not rogues. 04:11, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Mentor Program
It seems that the head of this program has left the wiki. Many mentor applications are left unhandled, and so are the apprentices' application. There probably needs to be a new head of this program to make this move smoothly. If I offended anyone, my apologizes. 00:18, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you, honestly. Duck /has/ been inactive for awhile. If not a new head, maybe a co-head to handle things while the other is gone? Just an idea. 02:43, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I agree, some requests have been there for a long time and the table needs an update too. 04:11, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Ryestalk
Who has Ryestalk's queen image? It seems to be wrong - the size is bigger than the usual queen blank and it has a sorta low resolution 02:02, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Join?
May I please join this project? 08:00, April 17, 2015 (UTC)