Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

ravenpaw and barley
so relooking at this cite, I think ravenpaw and barley should be listed as mates. youd associate living with each other (and being in love obvs) as partners, and its not refuting anything thats ever been said in the books, rf specificially. not to mention one of violets kits asking them if they had kits, as well as spottedleaf telling ravenpaw barley would not love him any less for dying and leaving him behind....seems to really say it all. kits have never been a concrete requirement for mates anyway, like squirrelfight and brambleclaw and twigbranch and finleap. 18:17, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

we should add them as mates. although it doesn’t state barley loved ravenpaw back as much, we still have plenty of proof in the books.

18:29, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

There's an abundance of evidence, especially in Ravenpaw's Farewell and the mangas. Like, to the point where it's obvious that the authors really want to explicitly call them mates but they simply aren't allowed to by the editors/publishers. I agree that they should be listed as mates. 18:33, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

<3 Please, please, please let's do this. 21:49, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with adding this^^

Agreed. 01:04, December 30, 2018 (UTC)

Yesss, I totally agree. This should have been done a long time ago! :) 01:36, December 30, 2018 (UTC)

Definitely. it's been shown that Ravenpaw really loves Barley.

I support adding this^

03:02, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

I think if she was referring to a male and female, it would already be considered as proof they are mates, so I say yes.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:10, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

I'd be fine with adding this, but would we do the same for Tallstar and Jake? Kate's said just as much on those two. ​

id be fine with that one too tbh 22:12, January 8, 2019 (UTC)

Yes! Please do this, we need some LGBT couples in here. <3Potato Flakin (talk) 23:21, January 8, 2019 (UTC)

One-off cites
Wanted to bring up something that we have several instances of - from what I can remember, on Mudfur (mottled), Firestar (dark ginger), Jayfeather (mottled?), Tawnypelt's pale cite. As a standard though, when cats are mentioned many many many times, I think it's bad precedent to include these descriptors on their articles. Some of these cats has PoVs, books to themselves....take Mudfur, who's solid in his image appearance in manga, yet has one mottled cite, so it sticks yet contradicting that. While we haven't given images credence in the past, PCA has deemed to recognize that these images are official, so perhaps PC should too.

Flametail was mentioned as dark ginger in his very first appearance, but in the hundreds of mentions afterwards, he's just as ginger, and is reflected in his official artwork. The most notable case is probably Firestar, who is flame-colored. Fire provides light... and in his artwork (barring a nighttime shot in RP where the lighting ids dark) he is shown as bright. While nothing directly contradicts, I personally believe we should not be listing him as dark ginger, and everyone said to look like him made to be dark ginger, due to one mention in FQ based on everything else we have. Why should we continue to list these, when they contradict evidence to the contrary? If they are mentioned more than once, and nothing else contradicts, they would be valid, but in these and other cases I believe they're null. I believe we should alter the guidelines on descriptions officially in PC, to account for cases like this. Thoughts?

I agree, and I thought we were already doing this, with cases such as Nightpaw (RC) and Fringepaw, of those that come to recent memory. If they are contradictory to the basic description, and only mention once, they should be listed as a mistake imo. 16:55, December 29, 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I think there should probably be more digging into cites that count and do not count (broken cites, one off cites), but cites that appear once and conflict with the description and do not ever appear again, especially on main characters, should be taken into careful consideration and possibly removed. 01:11, December 30, 2018 (UTC)

Agreed^ 01:15, December 30, 2018 (UTC)

cases like firestar, probably. he's a significant character and has a very specific prophecy and such revolving around his pelt colour. cases like tawnypelt, no. they're just them being specific for once, and literally nothing has contradicted her pale cite (excluding the white in her images, but that doesn't relate to the pale here. just her having white in general.) artwork is not infallible nor the main source we are taking from, as well as much of it having some sort of error and is why we have the alt art going on currently. the books comes first; or else we may as well remove say violetshine's mostly white appearance in favour of the more black art, but that contradicts what the books have said she looks like.

if perhaps the character is consistently and for the longest time mentioned as something that contradicts what a one off mention says, thats fine, even though i think we've gotten most of those. but if it's not contradicted in any way, it should stay. so mudfur's would stay as nothing contradicts it aside from manga art (which I believe has white on him anyway?) 01:37, December 30, 2018 (UTC)

Things that are constantly mentioned should override one-off cites since they have been mentioned more than something mentioned once. However, if they don't have anything contradicting said one-off cite, then it shouldn't be removed, because there's nothing there. Basically what Skt said, but it's a case-by-case thing.

Any more comments?

I'm not sure we can remove Firestar's cite for being dark ginger. I found a cite in page 76 of Sunset (Leafpool's perspective referencing Squirrelflight): "The sunlight gleamed on her dark ginger fur, turning it to flame, and for an instant she looked just like their father." There are many other times during that arc that Squirrelflight is mentioned to be similiar looking to Firestar, so we can dismiss that cite that says he is dark?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:17, January 4, 2019 (UTC)

The thing about that was... the sunlight hit her fur, and turned to flame, which made her look like her father. Like, the sun was making seem that way, which could be interpreted as further proving that her father is the color of flame, which is not Squirrelflight's color without the light hitting it directly. I'm not sure we take lighting subjective cites anyway, otherwise I'd throw out the bright cite that Fireheart has from Fire and Ice when they find WindClan, which would be first and trump the Firestar's Quest one anyways. Anyways yeah, really these would be case by case, but Firestar especially has a lot of evidence against him being dark ginger.

I would honestly say to purge all one-off mentions, especially if we do have something to contradict it. Even if it's art, if it's consistent throughout multiple instances, I don't see why we should keep it. Mudfur is actually a huge example; even if he is shown with white on him, I'm not liking the idea that it should be considered invalid all because he has some white on him. The majority of his pelt is still solid... and given that mottled was used once and only once, I'm perfectly fine with ruling that one at least as a mistake. Leopardfoot was also called mottled once...but mottled black makes absolutely no sense.

Icons
An idea thought up by Icy, for the infoboxes. Thoughts?

I think these are adorable, and definitely spice up userboxes with a lot of affiliations! It also makes them easier to see, which is a nice bonus. 16:52, December 29, 2018 (UTC)

It looks really good, and I like the idea in general, I am in favor of using it. Thanks for coding it, Spooky, it is really well done. 01:12, December 30, 2018 (UTC)

^ what Vec said, it's really nice and adds some personality to it.

Adding them would be a nice touch. 03:02, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

So cute! Yes it would really add to the articles.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:14, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

Any other comments? 21:32, January 6, 2019 (UTC)

I love these icons and would absolutely love to use them on the articles. It's a wonderful idea! What about for groups that don't have icons? Are we using the StarClan one, or should we make an "unknown" one?

Hmm I wouldn’t mind making an unknown, currently just has the StarClan with the text knocked off for most of them

Graystripe's parents
For the longest time, we have had Willowpelt and Patchpelt listed as Graystripe's parents. Except for the fact that they... are brother and sister. Per this, I believe that we should remove this cite from Graystripe's page. It was mentioned once, and the precedence of the fact that the two are siblings should ride over this mention. 02:43, December 29, 2018 (UTC)

I personally think we should hold off until the refurbished warriors website is released in early January. It's said to have family trees, and if Patchpelt and Willowpelt are said to be his parents there, then I think we should keep it. If not, then we should remove it. I know we question the validity of the websites, but I'm still curious to see. 16:50, December 29, 2018 (UTC)

I honestly think it should be removed... it was mentioned once, AND they're siblings, plus wasn't it a mistake? i'm sure if they hadn't forgotten the two were siblings they wouldn't have been put together... unless that doesn't count. unsure about waiting to see the new website. We didn't count stuff from the other one, I don't think, so not sure if this one would count either. 01:22, December 30, 2018 (UTC)

Idk about this, it definitely seems like a mistake, and it's one-off, but I don't think the whole thing should be ruled out. We should probably wait a bit.

This is definitely a mistake, obviously it was forgotten they were siblings. Although maybe make a note saying "They were stated to be mates, but it's probably a mistake" or something along those lines. I'd say wait until the family tree on the website changes anything, or we can use Redtail's Debt as a source since it takes place around the time where Graystripe was born, and maybe clear up the discrepancies. 21:01, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure we can dismiss this as a cite. Although if they make it different in Redtail's Debt, then I would go with it since a while ago I believe Kate said that the books go over author's word.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:23, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

Actually since we taking the new website as cites, it lists Graystripe's father as unknown. So I'm more or so willing to say it's a mistake now a more recent cite is saying otherwise.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:13, January 4, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Can we cite this as a mistake? 21:32, January 6, 2019 (UTC)

Please remove the ungodly incest mention, especially considering now we have the tree that no longer lists Patchpelt as Graystripe's father.

Unconfirmed Deaths
Many cats in the series randomly disappear. A lot... But some characters that are as old as Tallstar's Revenge and those SE have to be dead just based on cat lifespans. So cats like Piketooth and Reena have to be dead. Not to mention all the DotC characters and Field Guide characters. We could change their residence to unknown, which would make a bit more sense in my opinion. I'm not sure if we would give them the unknown residence blank, but that's a discussion for PCA. Thoughts?

15:49, December 30, 2018 (UTC)

Well, you could use the same argument for other characters, really. Mistystar and Mosspelt should be dead by now, but that does not mean SE characters should be. I think we are fine putting them as we last saw them, because there really is no confirmation otherwise. 02:40, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

Idk. See, cats like Reena and Piketooth are in books that were set a long time ago. Mistystar and Mosspelt should probably be dead by now, but cats from some older books are most definitely dead, such as Gorsestar. There should be a time as to when cats are most definitely dead, although that time might be arbitrary and I agree with Icy in the fact that it's kind of blurry as to when a cat is supposed to die. Apologies if I don't make any sense, I'm not exactly sure how to phrase this lol.

Hmm I kinda concur with Star. Like, cats with any reasonable doubt should stay as we last saw them, but DotC cats? Nooooo way they are still alive. Most of the cats that appeared in basically SH and before are dead dead, and we can even cite it to an academic cite of the longest lifespan possible for a cat.

And maybe we could set a limit, for example if a clan cat doesn’t appear for an arc they are considered unknown? while for rogues and loners we could just leave their residence the same unless they are from dotc.

02:54, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

I agree. For example, Reedshine should be dead, considering Mapleshade's Vengeance took place many, many years ago, and so would her kits. Any character from Super Editions like Tallstar's Revenge, Yellowfang's Secret, and Crookedstar's Promise must have died many years ago, along with the ancient novellas like Pinestar's Choice (I am thinking of Flamenose) So yeah, either their residence should be unkwown or if we have a cite for them it should say StarClan.Potato Flakin (talk) 18:19, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

putting it as starclan is an assumption. we know nothing of the faith (or lack of) for these cats. 20:44, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure since there are so many mistakes in the series on that subject (think Mistystar, Tallpoppy and should Graystripe still be alive?????). We could put a "likely deceased" or something along those lines, then treat them as if they are deceased?Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:19, December 31, 2018 (UTC)

I'd be fine labeling those cats as unknown or likely deceased, particularly those from DotC and the early super editions. I like Ari's idea of labeling them too if they don't appear in a while, cats like Copperpaw and Dewspots who kinda just fell off the face of the earth  02:17, January 1, 2019 (UTC)

So could everyone agree if a character doesn't appear for an arc, then it is consdiered 'unknown'? 15:38, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

I dont think we should count Mistystar as Mosspelt considering they appear in the most recent books. I do agree in the long ago books through such as TR and the DotC cats. I think we should at least list their residdnces as unknown considering they would pretty much be dead and havent been listed in any other series since. 11:09, January 7, 2019 (UTC)

Demotion System
So, Icy brought up something in PW that I found interesting--a downgrading system. And I thought I'd bring it up here, because there are some articles here that...may not be so deserving of their current status. Also, character pages are always changing so what was considered silver a while ago may not be currently. I would like to propose a system similar to what Icy has brought up. If an article is not deserving of its current status, then it should be downgraded, and it can always be re-promoted. Thoughts?

Agreed^^Some of these articles don’t deserve their respective gold or silver titles, and if hey aren’t being actively improved, they should be stripped of said rank and then given it back when the article is deserving of it. It’s misrepresentative to call these articles gold when they’re nowhere close to our best work

I agree as well, and it was always something that puzzled me when I first came across the wiki how many years ago; articles are constantly changing as the majority of the main cast are still doing things in the newer books; cats like Jayfeather and Bramblestar come to mind. Not saying these articles are bad! Just an example of a few that are constantly changing about every six months. 05:52, January 2, 2019 (UTC)

Was actually waiting for the discussion to conclude in PW before this was brought up here, but PC might be a little tricky matter. PW has articles that are absolutely poorly written as well as unfinished, while PC has excellently written articles that just are not complete. So this is a trickier system to tackle. 06:01, January 2, 2019 (UTC)

Hmm whereas PW will likely have things going from gold to started or planned even, PC might end up being more of a gold down to just silver or bronze. Even if it's excellently written, I believe gold articles should only be ones that are fully complete and quality work, so we could knock those down to silver and they can earn their gold back, perhaps? There are some PC articles that contain many issues such as bias, typos, sentence structure issues, not from the right PoV issues... those might get knocked down to bronze, I would think, as they're complete technically but not truly up to par.

February FA
Better late than never, am I right? Anyways, suggestions?

What does everyone think about Rowanberry? 23:33, January 4, 2019 (UTC)

I like Rowanberry, or Reedfeather. 23:38, January 4, 2019 (UTC)

Rowanberry ftw^^

WarriorCat Website Family Tree
Since we are accepting it as canon, there's a few things Thunder and I have picked up that needs to be discussed.

(Tip for navigation: StarClan is about all dead cats and Clan affiliation is all alive cats).


 * There's a line going between the siblings Spottedpelt and Gorseclaw and the parents Cloudstar and Birdflight. Usually, if it's only trying to connect relations to distantly placed characters, it would be a different colour, but this one isn't. Does this establish Sweetbriar and Fallowsong as SkyClan descendants, or only siblings?


 * Mate lines show a heart in the centre. Crowfeather and Feathertail have a line, but does not show a heart. Is this a mistake or a confirmation they are mates? It is placed like they are mates, but there is no hearts.


 * Dappletail and Stormtail also have the same problem as Crowfeather and Feathertail do above.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  00:18, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

We can also use the books for confirmation. There is no proof, especially in Crowfeather and Feathertail's case, that they were mates, alongside no confirmed proof that Dappletail and Stormtail were mates, nothing said outright. However, what I assume "mates" are is the heart, considering Hollyleaf and Fallen Leaves have the heart and are confirmed mates, but do not have kits, which was claimed that the heart symbolized. 00:27, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

Wasn't there a cite in Leafpool's novella about Crowfeather and Feathertail being mates?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  00:28, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

Just checked and it seems so. However, I do think that should be considered a mistake, due to the fact that we saw Feathertail and Crowfeather's relationship from the moment they met to the moment Feathertail died, and in no way shape or form were they considered mates at any point. Feathertail had already died prior to them going back to the Clans, in which Crowpaw asked her how their relationship would be like. 00:33, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

Agreeing here^^ Books come first, also in the case of Pinestar having Birchface and Frecklewish listed as actual siblings, instead of half-siblings, when Pinestar's Choice says otherwise.

In regards to the first question, I don't think the line symbolizes SkyClan descendants, but rather just the sibling relationship between Fallowsong and Sweetbriar. I think the line just needed to go somewhere and it just happened to cut through Cloudstar's family tree. A quick scroll through the full family tree can show that happening all over the place. For the "mates" concern, I think the lines w/o the heart just symbolizes feelings for each other, but not actual mates. The heart is reserved for mates, I believe 00:39, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

I get that it's seen as Canon but as far as descriptions on the family tree goes, I think that it should show an actual cat instead of a colored box. That doesn't seem to be like it should be an exact horse of the color because the books/authors could say something different then from what this 'icon' shows. 05:08, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

then they an just be changed to whatever the books say. most of the icons are pretty specifically clear on what their colours are, even if some are unfinished. 05:19, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

I just don't feel like an icon is enough though. It's just a colored box and as far as I saw there isn't a key for the family tree either. 05:23, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

I'm sure people can deduct colours in a sensible way. we have chararts for characters who've been mentioned with only a coloured body part so I don't see why this is that much different. 05:24, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Skt. Sorry Mink, but I think this is enough to qualify a solid description for the character.Potato Flakin (talk) 05:28, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

I mean I spoke with Spook and Thunder on this and as Spook said in discord. By putting what colors you think the icons are is assuming. I just don't think that should be done. 05:30, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

We can colorpick them then. It isn’t like all these descriptions are horribly wrong from the original descriptions besides a few like Crowfrost and Morningflower. But we can just make alts for those. If we’re going to make this an official citr, shouldn’t we make all of it official?

05:34, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

My thoughts: we need to accept the vast majority of the site as canon or not at all. We can’t change cherrypick what to take; so if we take the kin cites, and not the icons, well....either way it goes, it should Hebrew one way or the other. I think they’re enough to count. Kinda how we do with manga, only use them if there’s no other cite, but I do think they’re clear enough to add

Why are we considering this canon? We pretty much disregarded the old family trees, and while the new one seems to be more accurate, what gives it more credibility? Did an author endorse the new tree? When Vicky has said that Su's Missing Kits is not canon, why do we consider parts of it canon when it's put on an official site that has had problems in the past with publishing accurate information? 14:07, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

But Ivybreeze, people have made charart for characters that are mentioned with a colored body part and like Skt said it isn't that much different. I mean most of the trees are accurate so.. I think it's canon, and it is on the official website.Potato Flakin (talk) 15:19, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

To answer credibility, this one comes from Working Partners directly, not HarperCollins, and Vicky at least was somewhat involved in it's creation. Admittedly the old website was totally inaccurate, but that one was disavowed by the authors, while this one is endorsed. But anyways WP pretty much trumps all in terms of canonicity, while the label official website doesn't hold much credit, who published it does. And we're probably going to have to tweak most of those chararts anyways, with what limited description the icons do have + our blank redos

I definitely think the family tree is canon, as it is on the official website for the series, and the website was endorsed by the authors. We should consider it valid on the wiki as well. The family tree gives us more clarity than the books ever did. I also think the icons for pelt colors are good enough to cite for characters whose descriptions were previously unknown. Some of them are different from the known descriptions, I agree, but I also support making alts for those certain characters. 17:34, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

All right, it does seem like we should consider the information canon if all that is true. Thanks for clarifying, Spooky. In that case, I do also support using the relations on the tree as long as we put information from the books first (for example, keeping Birchface and Pinestar half-siblings) as well as using the pelt color on the icons for the kits, as all but two or three for the other characters are accurate. 17:41, January 5, 2019 (UTC)

SLiding in here to say that Newtspeck was called newtfrost on there. if we are considering this canon, theres a lot going on. (Also Spotpaw, Snappaw and Flypaw are shown as being black Malina457 (talk) 19:41, January 6, 2019 (UTC)Malina

Some of them aren't done, mostly the new characters.

20:06, January 6, 2019 (UTC)

Feathertail and Crowfeather were never mates, we have main arc books that prove that, so that is a mistake, and I removed that ages ago based on that. Anyways, we should be using this, but I'd say definitely be careful how we list things and keep it as clear as possible as to not cause confusion. ​

Are the black cat symbols place holders or actual error though Malina457 (talk) 00:44, January 7, 2019 (UTC)malina

Actually now having a closer look at the tree, Dovewing and Bumblestripe have a similar line as Stormtail and Dappletail do, a line with no heart. We know they were once mates but never had any kits, so maybe the line is indicating a kitless mateship or former kitless mateship?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  02:32, January 7, 2019 (UTC)

Another note: I'd say former mateship, since Fallen Leaves and Hollyleaf have a heart and they could like, be mates in StarClan. Hollyleaf's Story didn't indicate a mateship, so they would be mates currently.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  02:34, January 7, 2019 (UTC)

imo we should probably only list "former" and whatnot if we have 100% proof they are no longer together. In this series, I'm not sure dying seems to really separate them, since we now have at least two examples that disprove this (Bluestar and Oakheart, and now Fallen Leaves and Hollyleaf). Plus, adding "formerly" and whatnot in the character infobox just gets crowded.

longtail
so longtail is once again listed as silver in the new family tree. i believe he's been called silver then brown in the books, and has kate saying "according to me, he's brown." so what do u guys think we could do about this? jayce suggested we have a toggle, and I've suggested we list both descriptions with the toggle. 21:26, January 6, 2019 (UTC)

I'd be fine with listing both and having a toggle. 21:33, January 6, 2019 (UTC)

The toggle would be the appropriate way to handle this, since both colors have been used. Kate's word was taken as priority due to her writing the book in which the color was specified.

A toggle would be fine but I question... why are we even using an "according to me" cite in the first place? We usually don't, recently I've seen just ones that are very clear "yes", and it's something I brought up in Project Operations recently. Just thinking that we should do a toggle based on what the books say, not necessarily needing that blog cite.

Again, because Kate wrote Rising Storm, so what she said on Longtail was clarifying that silver was indeed a mistake to her. Since both were used pretty much once apiece, we needed that to try and find out what was what.

Sweetbriar
The new website lists Sweetbriar as the mother of Birchface and Frecklewish. I'm wondering if we can treat this as actual. Right now we list it as a mistake, but honestly it is completely possible. Just because she isn't listed in the allegiances of Mapleshade's Vengeance, doesn't mean she wasn't alive at the time, and no other cat is mentioned to be their mother so I don't see why we cannot list her as their mother.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:02, January 7, 2019 (UTC)

no. pinestar specifically calls birchface his half-brother. 07:04, January 7, 2019 (UTC)

Given Pinestar made it a note to explicitly say "half-brother", I feel we should take Pinestar's Choice over the family tree.

Ah yes I see. Yes, books should go over the tree I was just checking. Thankyou!<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:09, January 7, 2019 (UTC)