Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Partial-description Alts
Alright, I need to get this off my chest because I've been steaming over it long enough.

That would be all of the alts that have been made simply because the Erins don't list off every attribute of a cat every time they appear. Like Mousewhisker and Hazeltail for instance: given alts because they were mentioned with fluffy gray fur... they both do have fluffy gray fur. Not mentioning the white wasn't grounds for alts to be made. Or Sol's brown-and-black rogue alt. He is mottled brown and black, not mentioning the white and orange once doesn't mean that his white and orange fur vanished, really.

Look at it this way: do we give Spottedleaf alts every single time she shows up and the Erins don't spend half a page describing her? No. Why does it make sense to make alts every time one attribute isn't mentioned? Unless the Erins, for examply, specifically mention Barley as a solid black cat, he shouldn't get a black alt because he does have black fur and only mentioning said black fur doesn't mean he loses the white.

I think that the alts made for partial descriptions should be removed, no offense to those that made them, and that alts shouldn't be accepted for this reason in the future. 03:25, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Haha, once again you use your power of persuasion to put forth an idea I originally proposed :P Good luck with this (obviously I agree) 03:26, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

(It's always a good idea to mention Spottedleaf, haha) 03:27, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I agree too. It makes little sense to have alts with partial descriptions. At the mention of Spottedleaf, the Erins do not write, "the orange and brown, tortishell-and-white, dappled she-cat with a white chest and claws..." 02:23, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

While I agree about this, I think it's really unfair that people's images get removed after working on them. No one objected against them when they were up for approval. I think we should make a rule against partial description now, but leave the current ones on the pages so it's fair. 02:49 Wed Mar 14

Actually, I did object, and so did Ivy. And if we implement this it needs to be retroactive and the other chararts need to be removed. It wouldn't make sense to have them for some and not all. And chararts get removed all the time for various reasons (Brick, Brownpaw, etc). This is no different. Removing them is the only fair thing to do, leaving them would make no sense. 03:41, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm mainly thinking of the fairness towards the entire project rather than how fair it will be to a few individuals. I see it this way: if we keep those chararts, it would be unfair to decline anyone else's charart alts based on partial descriptions. Less people get their time wasted or feelings hurt this way. 04:05, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I've really been on the fence about it, but I'll put what I think for now, without deciding anything for sure. I think that it really all depends on the situations. Like for instance, Ivypool is almost always, without fail, mentioned as a silver and white tabby. Almost always, very consistently. So when she's described as say silver, or even a silver tabby, I think she should definitely get an alt, cause it's not her normal description, and it's wrong. However, say Leafpool was described without her white chest and paws, or without her tabby stripes. Now, she's not always described with those, quite often they're left out, so that wouldn't require an alt. I personally think we should just figure it out depending on the specific situations, cause in my eyes, it all really depends. 05:04, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

No offense, but that doesn't make much sense, Paleh. All cats in the series are very often described using partial descriptions, including Ivypool. Ivy just hasn't been around as long as most of them. She is silver and she is a silver tabby, they can't be expected to always list off every one of her attributes, as I said. Those alts should go with the rest. Unless she is specifically shown or described as a solid silver cat or just a silver tabby (not saying that she has silver taby fur or a silver tabby pelt, because she does have those things), she shouldn't get alts.

What qualifies for an alt, to me, is when a cat's description is changed (like when a cat goes from a tabby to a tortie like Mapleshade did), when their color changes at least more than two shades or changes color completely, or when a cat is displayed visually with an attribute they've never been mentioned with before (like white markings that come out of nowhere, though we could have a seperate discussion about pale chests).

The Erins just not mentioning a certain aspect of a cat every time a cat pops up is no reason to make an alt. 06:25, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Read this and tell me if any author in their right mind would write like this:

''Ivypool stalked quietly through the Dark forest, her silver tabby and white fur somehow managing to blend into the shadows, her white paws with thorn-sharp claws landing silently on the bare ground, her white face showing no emotion except a tiny flicker of fear that fluttered in her dark blue eyes. Her stripe tabby tail twitched nervously, but she extinguished any signs of feeling and froze the moment she sensed movement nearby. Suddenly, from the shadows emerged Tigerstar, the massive, tall, broad shouldered, dark-brown tabby that stalked her dreams... or her nightmares. His hefty paws, sporting unusually long front claws, only hid an equal power held in his sharp teeth. His long, thick tail twitched in interest as he looked Ivypool over, his scarred, pale muzzle (that matched his underbelly) lifted as he examined her, pale amber eyes boring into her. His ears twitched, one split in a deep V that only matched the rest of his scarred pelt. His pale amber eyes narrowed to slits and he bared his sharp teeth in a snarl. "Traitor!" The cry rang out through the trees as the massive, tall, broad shouldered,dark brown tabby tom with unusually long front claws, hefty paws, sharp teeth, long thick tail, muscular shoulders, a pale muzzle and underbelly, and pale amber eyes jumped on Ivypool, tearing into her silver and white tabby pelt and (I'm getting tired of writing) killing her dead.''

By your standards, had the Erins not included everything I just did in a scene like that, it'd be grounds to make an alt, which makes no sense. 06:44, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Meh, no offence taken, I'm horrible at explaining things. But I don't think you really got my point... In some characters, the main description is almost always stated. It seems off that they do it, but the erins do usually include the whole tabby-and-white things and stuff like that. Just like they almost always include whether a cat's a tabby. And we're not saying make alts for minor things left off, like pale bellies or white paws, we're saying make them for something major, like part of the main description. Main description being the absolute minimum you need to make an accurate chararts. You could have Hollyleaf short furred for example, because that's not part of her main description, and still be fairly accurate. It'd look like the character basically. And for times when those traits are left off, like when Mousewhisker and Hazeltail are described as just plain gray, I think it matters. And on a side note, cats are almost never stated to be completely solid. There's just no way to tell in the way the Erins right. Am I making any sense yet? I'm trying my best but I don't think I'm quite getting my point across. 08:57, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should make it so none of these things have alts, just that it depends how different the alt would be from the main charart. Like I said, we don't make alts for the erins failing to mention white paws, or even tabby stripes. However, as I was saying about the main description thing, if part of the main description's left off, it makes a fairly big difference usually. We do the same thing color-wise. If a color's too close to the original, it doesn't get an alt. So how about we just make it so there has to be a substantial difference to get an alt, rather than just saying "These things do, these things don't"? 09:00, March 14, 2012 (UTC).

I understood you perfectly the first time, and I'll reiterate my point so I'm clearer. Almost all cats that make more than one appearance are described with partial descriptions once in a while. Based on that simple fact, Ivypool should not be an acception, and obviously she is isn't consistantly given a full description every time she pops up if we've cited three instances in which she has not. I know for certain there are more instance than the three we have listed, too. And, as I said, she's only been around for a fifth of the series. Of course she's had less chances to get examples of just having her silver fur mentioned or just the fact that she has tabby fur or something like that. But yeah, making a list to add to the guidelines might be helpful. Here would be my choices:

What qualifies for an alt: What does not qualify for an alt: Seem good? 13:43, March 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Pelt type change (solid to tabby, tabby to tortie, etc)
 * Pelt color change of more than one shade (pale grey to dark grey, not grey to pale grey or dark grey)
 * Pelt color change to an entirely different color (brown to ginger, black to light grey, not silver to light grey or anything like that)
 * Addition of pale markings or stripes in book images (however, should a cat be constantly depicted this way, a pale chest/muzzle/paws may be added to a character's description after discussion as long as those things do not change any part of the existing description)
 * Gender change
 * Eye color change
 * Shifting pelt color by a single shade (pale grey to grey, ginger to dark ginger)
 * Being given a partial description (such as Firestar not being mentioned with a pale belly, Graystripe being mentioned without his stripe, or Mousewhisker being mentioned with only grey fur) unless a character is specifically mentioned as not having an attribute they are cited to have (for example: "Mousewhisker emerged from the den, the solid grey cat stretching in the light", not "Mousewhisker sat with his sister, Hazletail, their grey fur blending together")
 * Being depicted without stripes in the comic (for ginger cats that are not cited in the books as tabbies)

I understood the first time too, but like I said, I think it should be just differences from the main description that get alts, not everything in the description. I still don't agree and my opinion hasn't changed, but if others agree with you I'll concede. I think if there's a big enough change, regardless of it being something not being mentioned, it should get an alt. 14:09, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I can respect that. Alright, everyone else. Please comment with your thoughts on this matter. The more input the better (mayhaps this should be moved to a forum). 20:32, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Good grounds Shelly. I agree, we shouldn't make alts on partical descriptions. Also, if Spottedleaf was mentioned to be a tortie with white and black, but instead of the orange/brown, it was gray or something... (not realistic I know), would that qualify for an alt, because some stays the same and some changes. 06:10, 15, 03, 2012

'kay, guys. Final call for comments! If you've got something to say, say it now. If not, the vote to add this to the guidelines will be made in the next 24 hours. 01:55, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Well I still don't support it, but like I said, if nobody agrees with me, I concede. 20:36, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

A vote concerning this topic has been started here. All votes are welcome. 14:13, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

Requirements for Tweak/Redo Voting
Hey all! I'm just suggesting a tiny change this time, don't worry.

I've noted how frustrating it can be for a warrior to be unable to have any say in what chararts get tweaked or redone except for the option to propose them. Warriors aren't given a chance to defend their chararts (or chararts they like) with votes, only comments. So, I'd like to propose that instead of allowing only senior warriors and up vote in the nominations, we simply have a charart approval minimum like we do for becoming a warrior. Let's say 10 chararts either from scratch or redone and you can vote? Maybe 15? Sound good to anyone? 16:34, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. I would think 15 chararts form scratch or redone (Maybe 4 tweaks, 'cause knowing basic knowledge of tweaking is important). Though, I'm not that sure about it. If a warrior comments on a nomination, for an example, saying that it looks fine in a certain way, but not counting it as a vote, SMs should take that user's opinion into thought, and try thinking the way that user does. So pretty much, even if someone is not allowed to vote, SMs should take the opinion of the commenter as one factor (along with his/her own opinion as another factor) when deciding if it's fine to redo or not. 16:40, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

I guess that sounds good. How about 10 and has been a warrior for like 3 months? I think if more people are allowed to vote, the number of votes to pass should be changed to like 5 or something. 16:42 Sun Mar 18

Good idea, Mounty. Upping the number of votes to pass or fail would compensate for the increased number of voters. 16:44, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

It's a good idea, but I don't think it's necessary, as Stone said, warriors can comment and SW's take the comment into account of how they vote. If it does happen, I think 12 for chararts approved and a warrior for 3 months. (like Mounty said) and the amount of users who vote goes to 5 (I copied Mounty again). 06:06, 19, 03, 2012

I think it's a good idea. It would allow users like Shelly and Breezewhisker, who both know tons about chararts and pelt styles, to vote, and could prove very useful in the future. 06:18, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Huh... When the system was approved, I always thought that voting extended to warriors, apprentices, etc. Oversight, I guess. But I think that if a user's been made a warrior, they've already demonstrated their knowledge of making their own chararts, so maybe a warrior for a two weeks and at least five tweaks done and approved? 23:08, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Seems a bit low, Scarlet. I dunno, I think at least seven chararts so warriors have decent experience on the tweak page as well. Warrior for two weeks would be fine. And, as we've already said, upping the number of votes needed to five instead of three. -- 23:11, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

How about we just use the same qualifications as being a mentor? 02:35 Thu Mar 22

That would be a good idea Mountain, but I think there still needs to be more chararts approved/tweaked/redone. Maybe 8-9 original artwork, including redos, and 5 tweaked, because you need the experience. 06:12, 22, 03, 2012

I like the idea of 10 approved 5 tweaked/redone, a total of 15. 01:31, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

Should we set this to a vote and add it to the guidelines, then? So, a user should have at least ten chararts (or more) approved/redone and a good amount tweaked, and be a warrior for a certain amount of time. Also, raising the number of votes should be included as well. For some, there very well may be some that agree, and some that don't agree. The higher vote would allow for more discussion on said image; ie. Tallstar (no offense, Mounty. It's just the most recent one I could think of). 02:03, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think a vote is in order, yeah. That way no one can say they didn't have a say in this matter. 17:58, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Agreeing on the vote here. 06:22, 02, 04, 2012

A vote has been opened here. 14:23, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

Archive Idea
I was looking through the archive list, and I noticed it was kinda long, more so on this page, and the approval page. So, what I was thinking, is that we could group the archives together. Perhaps in groups of 50 or 100, probably 50, since I don't think we're going to get /that/ many discussions, and the approval page archive thing is getting really long...

So, here's how it would work. You see these archive pages? That would be the storage for the main archives, and we could move the pages for archives 1-50 (or whatever number you guys want) into another subpage called something along the lines of  Warriors Wiki talk:Charart/Discussion Archives/Archive  (replace number with actual archive number, as usual), and so on and so fourth. The approval page would work the same way, but the page would be called  Warriors Wiki talk:Charart/Approved Archives/Archive , and the same would be said for the declined archives  Warriors Wiki talk:Charart/Declined Archives/Archive .

So, yeah. We don't have to do it, but I think it could save us a lot of space on the pages... Anyways, comments? 05:21, March 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention...we could have the links to the other archives up at the top of the page, and it could read something like this [1-50]. 05:23, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think this is a really good idea. It saves a lot of space on the talk pages, and will be more organised. I think it should be 1-50. It's quite annoying having to have a whole chunk of archives listed, clogging up space where you're trying to read discussion/look at artwork. 07:49, 28, 03, 2012

Have we come to a consensus about this topic? 22:13, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I got one comment about it. This is what I mean about my ideas going unheard. If no one's got any problems, I'll just make the archives myself.

Tabbys with pale undersides
As many of you have noticed, adding a pale muzzle and underside to tabbies have become artist's choice recently since that's a common pattern found on tabby cats. Fact of the matter is that the pale underside is common on all cats and should be the artist's choice on all images, but I digress.

However, since we've adopted this trend, I feel like we ought to be getting rid of all alts made simply because a cat has been depicted with a pale underside, like Squirrelflight's alt. warrior and Heathertail's alt. apprentice. I've already had my alt. leader for Firestar deleted, which wasn't easy for me since I liked that image so much. Likewise, we should no longer make alts for this reason.

Do you guys agree? 14:07, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Why would Heathertail's alt go? She was described as ginger. And Squirrelflight was shown as being short haired and having no white paw. I think if the main image has a pale under belly then the alt should go because it would be redundant. 14:32 Wed Mar 28

I don't know about Squirrelflight. But Heathertail wasn't described as ginger, she was supposedly shown as it. And both me and Shelly agreed that she doesn't really look ginger, more light brown, which is her description. 15:12, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Well, If Shelly's pale-belly alt was deleted, than, it would be fair to have others deleted. 15:35, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think Squirrelflight's alt should stay. As Mountain said, she was also shown as short-furred and no white paw. 16:28, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Pardon me, but I remember proposing an alt for a character that was described mistakenly with short fur, and I was told no. If I was told no then, then I'm going to say no to Squirrelflight's alt staying. It's not picking and choosing what gets to stay while other things get shot down, because then that's not fair. 16:30, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I nominated my alt to be deleted. Fairness isn't what this is about. And on Squirrelflight's alt, I don't think missing the white paw is grounds for an alt. Remember the partial description discussion we're having up there? ^^^ Missing a white paw is nothing (in fact, she does have white paws in that image, so the white paw is there regardless), and having short fur doesn't matter because she's never been described explicitely with long fur as far as I can see in her description. Having a fluffy tail is possible for a short-furred cat. I'm not saying add a pale belly to Squirrelflight's image, I'm saying just get rid of the alt because the image it's based on is too similar to the rest of the images. Having a pale belly shouldn't mean anything anymore, and just having a partial description should not either. There are many more images as well. 16:33, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with Squirrelflight's image being deleted. :P Ivy and Shelly are right, other than the pale belly, we don't make alts for the reason I made hers. In my opinion, this is a bit like making an alt for a ginger cat being described as a tabby. Though not exactly, it's a similar situation. Both are things that are extremely common on real cats, and if I remember right, we used to make alts for both before we decided all gingers have to have stripes. The main difference is that pale bellies are optional now, not required. It wouldn't make sense really to have alts for cats who's artist chose not to have a pale belly, then not have them cause other artists did choose to use one. It'd be unfair. And really, since almost all tabbies (and most other cats too) have pale bellies, it's most likely not a mistake, just as showing Firestar as a tabby isn't a mistake probably. Hope that made some sense and didn't sound like rambling. 20:39, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

We seem to have a general agreement here, and I added this to the vote here under what doesn't qualify for an alt. 14:15, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

Riverfeather - Join Request
Can I join? Please? And what's a charart? Riverfeather 12:03, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

If you dont know what is it, why do you want join the project..lol ,15:49,April 3,2012 (UTC)

...if you want to join, try creating a new message. And, charart is character art. 14:17, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

So... I just made a new heading so it'd stand out more. :/ 02:23, 14, 04, 2012

Yes Riverfeather, you can join. Here are the guidelines that you need to read, and apprentice tutorials on how to do a charart. If you need a mentor, check out the mentor program. Welcome! 19:05, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Multiple alts.
On page 49 of The Last Hope, Ratscar was called fox-red. Later, on page 59, Molepaw is called a brown-and-white apprentice. On page 245, Darkstripe is called a black tabby. Crowfeather is described with a black pelt on page 308 and somewhere in Twilight (Don't have the book, so I don't know where), and Hawkfrost is called a gray tom on page 319. Also, Redtail is called russet on pages 328 and 329. Wouldn't they get alts. for that?

Also, Pinenose is called a queen on page 272, Boulderpaw has become a warrior (Named Boulderfur, revealed on pg. 267), there is a new ShadowClan apprentice, Stoatpaw, and in After the Flood, Cherrytail is revealed to be expecting Sharpclaw's kit on page 17. One more thing; Mosspelt 's been a queen ever scince her daughter, Willowshine, became Mothwing's apprentice. Shouldn't she have a non-pregnant queen charart? 21:12, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Ratscar, yes. Molepaw, maybe. Darkstripe, yes (mine). Crowfeather, no. Hawkfrost, definitely. Redtail... maybe? Was it referring to just his tail?

Pinenose, yes. Boulderfur, yes. Stoatpaw's already being done. Cherrytail isn't a queen yet, still a warrior as far as I heard. No to Mosspelt. For all we know, she could be having multiple litters. Better to not assume. 21:19, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

It say, "A russet tom followed, glittering with stars," on page 328 and on page 329, it reads ""These cats gave Firestar his nine lives...Redtail-" he nodded to the russet warrior- gave him a life for courage."" (Another mistake, as he gave him justice) 21:36, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and scince Lilykit and Seedkit got alts. for being mistakenly called tortoiseshells by one of the Hunters (can't remember which), wouldn't Mapleshade get a tortie warrior alt.? 21:50, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

She already has a tortie alt of the manga so there's no point in making another for that. 22:37 Wed Apr 4

Another thing; I was going through The Rise of Scourge, an I reallized that Boulder was a solid cat, not a tabby. Wouldn't he get an alt for that? 20:08, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

If you have a citation for it, then yes, he would  22:14, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

The Rise of Scourge, Boulder is shown as a solid gray tom on page 76. I got dibs. 13:25, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

I haz a proposition..... owo
Ok guys, so as most of you are probably aware some of us were planning to make sure Loonie's image wasn't declined in the 9 days she'll be gone, as she gave a clear time she'd be back, and it was only 2 days over the limit, however Shelly brought up a good point about it not being in the rules, and it technically being an exception. However, we've done this kind of thing in the past an I think it's only fair, so I propose we add it to the guidelines. If a user is gone for any less than 2 weeks, and gives an exact date when they'll be back, their image shouldn't be declined until that day. If they're not back when they said, then yes, it would be declined. What harm would come from keeping an image a couple days over if we know when they'll be back really? It seems unfair, and we've made unofficial exceptions in the past. So I say we add this to the guidelines once and for all. I've got a few people supporting already, so what do you guys think? 03:15, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Mmkay, let's move away from the word unfair and move towards making an actual proposal, eh?

How about this: should a user that is currently in the process of getting a charart approve need to leave due to unforeseen circumstances, they may be allowed a five day extension on top of the normal 1-week time limit before their charart is declined for lack of work. If the user fails to notify the project, however, they still fall to the normal 7-day time limit. Sound good? 03:21, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Shelly, that sounds perfect^^ 03:24, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. 03:26, 05, 04, 2012

In all honesty, I don't agree with this. You get a week to upload or not and that's that. I don't think any user should have an extended amount of time for a reason like that. It doesn't seem fair that somebody should get to sit on an image that a bunch of other people can do. A week is certainly long enough and I don't think there should be exception for any reason except like deaths in the family. I know that sounds extreme, but it's not fair if somebody goes on vacation or something that requires a fair amount of planning beforehand and an image many would love to do isn't worked on. Especially if one knows they are going to be gone. The image shouldn't have been reserved or posted in the first place. So no, I don't like this. Breeze whisker  03:40, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

That's why I said "unforeseen circumstances", Breezey. Going on vacation is a foreseen circumstance, and if you're planning to go vacationing you're irresponsible to try starting a charart, anyway. I'm talking about things like death in the family, sudden injury, natural disaster, things like that. 03:43, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with that, but, excuse me for using a specific example, Loonie said she was going to Europe in the image comments, and that usually involves quite a bit of planning. So unless it was an emergency I don't think an exception should be made. So the reason this is being proposed is bothering me more than the actual proposition, which I agree with as long as it is the emergency sort of thing, since unless Loonie's reason was an emergency it goes against the proposition and implies that what I am against in my earlier edit is the reason. I apologize for any misunderstandings or anything of that sort since I don't really want to pry. Breeze whisker  03:57, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

This wasn't made for Loonie. It began discussion because her being gone brought up the problem, but a few of us discussed it and it was decided we'd propose it. Not for Loonie, for everyone who this'd apply to. 04:07, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if I am allowed to comment. I agree with this. I have two images on the approval page and I am going to a wedding in Canada today, that I only knew about on Tuesday. I won't be back until maybe Monday or Tuesday and I really don't want my images to be declined. If it is not my place to comment here, then sorry-- 11:25, April 5, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

The thing is (I hope I can explain this right) couldn't someone easily manipulate and abuse that? They could easily say it was an emergency and not have their image declined. Also, someone could just say something happened and let their image sit for longer. I mean, I'd like to think everyone would be honest, but you can never be 100% sure. I just think that we've been fine with what system we've already had. You could also say that an emergency is how you interpret it. Obviously, serious family sickness or a death is an emergency, but some things, it depends on the person as to whether or not it is. So I say either extend the time limit or just don't change it at all, in my opinion, as it's not fair. 17:19, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not we extend the time limit, there will always be users who abuse that fact. It's common knowledge that there's going to be a user or two in a group that will lie about why they're not around, and get the extended time. But, at the same time, if we extend the normal time limit, there are going to be those users who just let their images sit, thus taking up space that could be used for productive work.

I think the limit should only be extended if it's a legit reason, like, when I left back in December, or if a user is working on image blanks, like Loonie was. Each situation should be looked at differently, and exceptions only made it the situation calls for it. If a user knows their going on vacation or something like that a month in advance, they should only take on images they know they can get approved within that time limit, or just not take any at all. It's different for something like a flood (as I would know first-hand), or other acts clearly beyond their control, like a death in the family, or an accident.

Exceptions can be made, and they have in the past. As I said though, it should be looked at individually, and shouldn't be generalized into groups. 17:36, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

I still agree. Something major, like a death or natural disaster, I think there should be exceptions. 02:12, 06, 04, 2012

Guys... I'm going to stick my nose in here... Either you have rules or you don't. It's one thing to choose to extend for a person who /cannot avoid/ something (IE: Your house is flooded by a hurricane) but it's another for exceptions to be given for completely unexceptional circumstances. "I leave on vacation" says to me that the person shouldn't have even had the gaul to reserve the image in the first place, given that they knew full well they didn't have time to finish it. I think a rule for exceptions is a good idea because exceptions beyond the rules should be rare. Rare to the point where they're almost nonexistent. Vacation is not a reason to grant an exception. Vacations are planned. They're far from beyond the control of a person. It's time to create a rule to deal with the situations that are needed and it's time for exceptions to the rules to become exceptions again, instead of making them the rule without an rules governing them. The past is a terrible precedent in this case because what was done in the past was a bad idea. Not having rules for extensions will make nepotism and unfairness too easy. If everyone agrees that "this type of situation is what warrants an exception to the normal rules" is much more fair than "listen to the situation and decide based on no criteria that anyone can discern". 18:33, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Something Fun
For once, Shelly has an idea that can be construed as a way to make the project more fun. Hooray!

This would just be for fun, to add a friendly competition to charart making. Since PC, PB, and PW get to have features on the front page every month, why don't we feature a best charart on the front page of PCA every month? For fairness, it can only be a charart made originally or as a redo.

I think a couple of additional rules would be that a person that has a charart win one month would be unable to get nominated for two months afterward. The senior members would make the nominations and the entire project would vote for their favorite.

Features would go on PCA's main page, right below the project news (I think).

How does this sound? 23:34, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

As I said on the chat, I think this is a very good idea. 23:36, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I re-thought this. I don't agree. What if each month, a charart made by one or two users will be nominated every time? I wouldn't find that so fun. Also...Though it is for fun...I just don't think it's very necessary...Sorry. 23:38, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

That's why I added in the rule that once a person wins they have to wait two months before even being nominated again. Of course, we can extend that length of time. And of course it isn't necessary, nothing about this project is. It'd just be a fun way to encourage users to do their best and improve their skills. 23:51, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm...That would work. 23:54, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds fun! Why not? Maple♥ legs  Mischief brewing 00:00, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Spark stands by what she said on the chat. |3 Good idea, Shelly~ Spark  Love me some chocolate~! ♥ 00:02, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds okay, but I had a couple suggestions. Maybe, instead of art being nominated by a user, the OA would put forth their art for consideration and everyone would vote, kinda like the contest. And, though I think you implied this, one charart per user? Where'd the voting be done? And does the charart have to be started and completed in that month, or just started? 00:36, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I think we'd do nominations in a forum like the other projects do. And good idea with the self-nominations. And I think a charart will need to be completed to be put up for nomination. 00:42, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I knew that the charart would have to be completed. I meant within the month, like could it only be a charart started on April 6th and finished April 24th? Scarlet Derp moment 01:01, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

So this is actual chararts displayed on the wiki (ie. I could nominate Whitestorm's Apprentice), not fanfic chararts. Slap me if I'm wrong. Also, what if I originally did an image, and it was later redone by another user, who would get to nominate it? Does it have to be the current version of the image? I like this idea, it will bring more fun to the project. :) I agree with self-nominations. 02:21, 09, 04, 2012

Ah, Scarlet, I think just finished within the month then. And DJ, yeah, only images that go through PCA. So no non-canon stuff. And I doubt any charart you finish would be redone within the month. 02:41, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly I'm not a huge fan of this idea. It sounds fun and all, but I have a feeling it will cause drama, and that's never good. Nice idea, but it may not work out as nicely as you imagine, so I'm gonna say no, I don't agree. Go ahead, shoot me now. 03:46, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

No one is mad that you disagree, Paleclaw. Everyone is inclined to their own opinion. 03:49, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Paleclaw. It's really easy to hurt others feeling with art and it might cause some resentment. I might be wrong, but from what I've seen with PC, PB, and PW, the articles featured are a collaboration of several different users, with edits from contributors and others on the wiki. A charart is really just made by one person, despite the critiques that are given on the image. It doesn't really show what the wiki can do, just what a person can do. Also users might get bitter if their art isn't featured and some of them might decide to cause drama, and like Paleclaw said, that's never a good thing. Breeze whisker  04:11, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I agree too. To the warriors, apprentices, and kits, their art may or may not be featured as much as SW+, and that might hurt their feelings. Also, I know who's art would mostly be featured, and even though we'd do the two month rule, we'd still have common winners and it might intimate users about their own skill. I know I am when I look on the approvals and tweaks page, and aside from my few good chararts (Crookedstar, Firestar, Mapleshade), I might feel sure about my skills (this is mostly an example using me, but I might feel a little let down if I only had, let's say, one feature during this whole run, and so would other's). I know you guys who agree only have good intentions, but there could be consequences :/ I hope I explained what I meant right. It sounded better in my head lol  20:17, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe to share around the prize to be featured between the different ranks, we could change the theme each month or every two months. For example, one month might have the theme of "The Most Original Art", and the next month might be "The Neatest Shading" or something. (Someone can think of better names then me). Not sure it will quite work though. 02:49, 10, 04, 2012

DJ, that sounds like a really good idea~ *claps* I think that we could maybe go along with DJ's theme idea, and that way every charart would have a shot at being featured. 23:02, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah! I like DJ's idea because thinking about it, it would probably open up to more of the project members, if that makes sense. 03:06, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Project "Leads", Pay Attention!
Okay, guys. You see this page right here? It's been lacking when it comes to voting, archiving image nominations, and placing them under the correct list. This needs to stop, since I can't do it all, and neither can the select few users who actually help with that page. The "leads" of this project need to step up and start helping with this page. It's part of the job description of "senior warrior", and most of you aren't doing your job.

Short and sweet. If you guys don't start helping out, there's going to be some major changes to the ranks. You don't do your duties as a project head, you're getting demoted.

Thanks to the ones that do help out. Your help is greatly appreciated. =) 05:05, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Minnowtail's Description
I've been meaning to bring this up... Anywho, I asked if i should post this here or PC's talk page, and I was told to post it here, so I think her alt for being described with a dappled pelt should stay. It was the only time she was described with it, and its not like a pale underbelly or a nick in the ear, its her whole pelt pattern. I doubt that the Erins' forgot to add her pelt pattern to the alligiences every book. So yeah... Thoughts? 00:43, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Once again I argue, alts shouldn't be made just cause something was only mentioned once. Like for instance, Sparrowfeather got tabby added to her description, though it was only once, so why shouldn't minnow? Like a million descriptions would be removed if we didn't add things that were just mentioned once. I think it should be added. 04:39, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

So if we do that...we'd make cats like Mousefur and Mudclaw tabbies, and Russetfur ginger and white? o3o Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 07:05, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm I'm not sure about the first two, maybe we can find some kind of standard on when to add things that were only mentioned once. But no, Russetfur was in the manga, so even if we did this, she wouldn't become one. 07:32, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with making it the description of the whole cat if it's only mentioned once if it's the whole pelt pattern, but that's of course just my opinion. I don't think that Sparrowfeather should have had his tabby mention put in his description either, since he already is mottled anyway, and was only mentioned once with it. :/ 08:17, 11, 04, 2012

Erm, need I remind you guys that Squirrelflight was only mentioned with a white paw once? And yet that's always been a part of her description here. I think that if a new aspect of some cat's description is revealed later after the cat first appears, and it doesn't change any part of their existing description (like changing from gold to gray, or Hawkfrost going from a mackerel tabby to a swirling tabby) it should simply be added to the cat's description. Like making a mottled cat a tabby? Totally normal. 15:29, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Also, how many time do I have to tell you people? 'Character descriptions fall to Project Characters. The only part of the article we control are the character images, NOTHING ELSE.' 18:09, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Indeed is Shelly correct. Please keep in mind that PCA handles the character images while PC pertains to the structure, formatting, and the content within character articles. A character description is part of the content within a character's article. Also, if it's a minute problem, a discussion can be put on the talk page of the article. 22:24, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Very true. Whatever is stated in the description, we make the charart on. Currently, Minnowtail's description is "a dark gray she-cat with amber eyes" (There's more to it), so we make a charart for that description. I think that's fair. 02:16, 14, 04, 2012

New category!
Hey guys! Many of you are already aware of this, but I felt I should announce it here so no one misses it, hopefully.

Anyway, the new image category is Category:Alternate Character Images. From here on, if you approve an alt, add that category to it along with the normal categories.

Thanks! 15:47, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Official Redlines?
Hey guys. Thistly here. ^.^ So I was thinking about chararts sometime today, and I came up with an idea. It probably won't go through, but I thought I'd just throw it out there.

So, I was thinking maybe we could have some offical tabby/tortie redlines to help some people out with different tabby designs?

I was thinking maybe it could work on chararts for approval too, unless yall' don't like the same tabby design being used twice, or if it would be a problem to use the redlines in general. I know sometimes people make redlines for examples, but if we made some for everyone to use, and had an easy acsess for them, I think they could really help for some newer users. And maybe we could even have a certain limit of how many times you can use the redline?

I know I'm making a big deal out of the idea, but hey, I think thata it would be really useful. . 22:40, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Nice thought, but sorry Thistle, no. We had a discussion about this a while back, and we're here to create original art, not use redlines over and over again, so we decided to make it against the rules to use those kind of redlines. You can have tabby patterns made as reference, but not redlines that people can just take and use on their charart directly. In a way it's like using say a warrior image and making it into an MC, when you didn't make the warrior image. It's pretty much art theft. like I said, it's a nice thought, I'd considered it too, but we should stick to making original art each time. Sorry thistleh. 22:52, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Redlines should only be used for a reference, and in no way copied. Like the image Ivystripe uses on her tutorial, to show an example. It's a good thought, and I know you mean well, but it would be considered cheating..

It is a good idea, but it would be like cheating as Cloudy said. We can give examples, but we need to encourage one another to make original artwork. 02:29, 16, 04, 2012

Alts./Tweaks
Alright um... here are some cats that need to be tweaked and some of them need alts. last time I checked if these had alts. or were tweaked was a few weeks ago.

Alts. Tweaks
 * Fallen Leaves- orange and white - pg 306: Not sure on the whole orange vs. ginger thing but this is the one I would like to try and do.
 * Honeyfern- dappled tabby- pg 312
 * Brokenstar- black- pg 316: He has one for an elder but not leader... not sure if he counts as a leader...
 * Leafpool- brown- pg 328: not a tabby

These might have to be moved to the tweak page. That's all for now. 01:03, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Spiderleg- gray muzzle: Its on his page, I think.
 * Ivypool- sliced ears- pg 294
 * Mapleshade- matted- pg 313: Do we tweak matted coats?

Spiderleg's already been tweaked, as has Mapleshade, I believe. Leafpool is a no since she's brown already. Brokenstar...maybe. I'm not sure. Also, orange = ginger, if memory serves.

Brokenstar hasn't been Leader since Into the Wild. He died as an elder, and already has a black rogue alt, so no matter what, he wouldn't get one. Honeyfern's already a dappled tabby. And yes, orange=ginger. 01:16, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

I checked Spider he's been tweaked, Honey too, Maple isn't matted but still not sure if we tweak them because it'd be hard to tell. 01:22, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

She's being tweaked already though. Her alt's already tweaked. 02:16, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

As for Leafpool: No. Just no. She is already brown, and unless she was mentioned as solid brown, she gets no alternate. This has been discussed time and time again. 02:20, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, actually, we do tweak images to be matted. Thank you for the cite to validate my tweak on Mapleshade's alt. I have nothing more to add that hasn't been said already. Those that were not opposed, suggest them on the tweak page or reserve them if it's an alt or put it on the characters needing art page  22:08, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

A Public Apology to *Wildfire* and a Proposal for and Elder Rank
As the heading suggests, I'm here to formally apologize for what I started recently concerning the actions of Wildfire. As many of you know, when Wildfire posted a list of non-contributive users to this talk page, I was the first to decry her actions as over the line and rude. Soon after this, Wildfire was kicked from the project.

We were wrong to do this.

Wildfire, I am so sorry for what I said and what happened. In hindsight, what you did was more than appropriate. You did what the senior warriors should have been doing by checking the contributions of the members of this project and finding those that did not fit our guidelines any more. We should have encouraged you to continue helping with the footwork our senior warriors haven't been doing, and we should not have kicked you from the project.

As such, project bannings should not be considered an option for punishment anymore. They are not enforceable as project membership is not required for project participation.

And furthermore, I'd like to propose yet another rank. One that other projects already use. That'd be the elder rank.

The purpose of the elder rank is simple. When someone starts to become less than contributive, they are added to this rank to remind them to contribute and to remind senior warriors to keep an eye on them. If they're in the rank too long, they're removed from the project.

I think that this would help a bit.

And, again, I sincerely apologize to Wildfire for my own rash actions that led to the rash actions of others. I hope you don't think less of me for it. 20:54, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry as well, Wild. There isn't much I can say that's already been said. I kicked myself (not literally) for booting you from the project, and afterwards, I felt terrible for days.

I feel partially responsible for this, as it was my choice to kick you from the project. I thought it was the right thing to do at the time, and I now realize that it wasn't. I wasn't thinking with my head, and now I realize the error of my ways.

Again, I'm sorry, Wild. We're glad to have you back in PCA, and I swear to StarClan this'll never happen again.

Thank you for doing this, it means alot, but you didn't have to, you believed what you were doing was for the good for the project and I can't blame you for that. You gave me a chance to think about my words and the effects of them, and I needed to do that. Thank you Shelly and Cloudy for doing this though, it really does mean alot. 21:47, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

About the Elder proposal... I think it's an excellent idea. Maybe, when they are added to the rank, a lead can leave the a message to let them know. 16:21, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of the elder rank too. 07:44, 20, 04, 2012

A question
Lol, I'm meant to be on break. XP But I was just curious, with Snake and Ice being described as grey toms in the Darkest Hour, did it ever say it was them? Cause unless it does, shouldn't their grey descriptions be dropped and put as black and white?

Also, if it did say, then nevermind. XD Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 23:53, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

You're right. Snake and Ice are not named in The Darkest Hour. The two gray cats Barley was fighting could have been anyone. Unless they were called gray in Secrets of the Clans, the only descriptions we have for them would be the black and white ones. 00:04, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, about Jaggedtooth, was it ever confirmed the ginger tom in A Dangerous Path was him? o3o <font face="Arial" size="1" color="Blue" >Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 01:35, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. We have no clue who the ginger tom at the bottom of the rock was. Only that he had fought with Brindleface in Rising Storm. However, upon looking at Rising Storm, I found that Jaggedtooth is never named in that book. He isn't named in A Dangerous Path, either. 02:05, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

So would that make him grey with a white muzzle, as he was shown in the manga? Because if you're right, that's the only place he's shown with a description. 02:40, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

No. He's still a large tabby. The other cites are good. The solid cat with a white muzzle still doesn't fit his description. 02:42, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Great find you guys! I'd say we should double-check some of the older character descriptions for the original series characters and manga characters (to make sure false colors were not provided)  02:50, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Senior Warriors, Pay Attention! This is How it is!
Alright. I'm not here to bear any ill will. I'm not here to name names or place blame on anyone specifically.

I am here to get something straight. Because this is becoming a problem. This is the number one thing I noticed the most when I was a warrior (and yeah, I became a warrior to take notes on what the bigger problems in the project was).

Senior warriors.

You were all elected by this project to perform the actions that need to be performed to ensure that the project runs smoothly. When you do not perform these actions, the project slows down and things don't get done. Warriors have to sit there powerless waiting for their images to get archived or their nominations to get voted on and archived.

So here is what you're expected to do, specifically.


 * Everything a warrior does (make images, comment on image, participate in discussion)


 * CBA images


 * Archive images that are ready to be approved or declined


 * Watch the kits and note when they get their first imag emost of the way done so they can be made apprentices


 * Watch the apprentices so that they can be made warriors when they have enough images complete


 * Vote on tweak/redo nominations


 * Archive tweak/redo nominations


 * Vote on membership nominations and archive these nominations when the voting period is done


 * Monitor the activity in the project to make sure no one is violating a guideline.

When only a few senior warriors are actually doing all of these things, there's a problem. It is a disservice to the rest of the members of this project and it makes it so they cannot do their jobs. I take this as a personal failing since I nominated or voted for most of you.

I'm not saying that all of you are failing at your jobs. Many of you are doing great. And I'm not saying that all of you need to do every job every day. But if the productivity of senior warriors reaches an extent, I will be naming names. You aren't put into this position for the glam of having the title. You were put in this position so that stuff gets done. And if you cannot get these things done, someone else can fill the position.

Please understand that I write this out of concern for the project, not out of contempt for anyone. I want to see the project thrive, but lately it's like its pulse has slowed. And this is not okay. 01:18, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

'''Thank you. This is what I was trying to say'''. Well said, Shelly. Honestly, I'm sick of being one of the only ones who does work around here. Sorry, guys, but to be blunt, you need to shape up a bit.

Does this include me? I'm sorry if I'm not active when I'm at my mom's, but it's unavoidable, but if it's a problem, I can try to get on more when I'm over there. :c 02:48, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

It includes every senior warrior. Not making contributions every time your at your mom's house it fine. But every senior warrior is slacking. I originally proposed that we expand the senior warrior rank with the intent to get this stuff done even when a few other senior warriors needed to be away. With the number of senior warriors we have, you should be able to go to your mom's house without there being a significant drop in SW productivity. 02:57, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I have been trying to improve on these things, and now I'll try much harder. Sorry if I have been slacking. 03:10, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I know this mostly means me.... I've been having a difficult year, but I promise that I will make a commitment. 03:12, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, uh, I know I'm in there. I'll try harder once I get back from my break. <font face="Arial" size="1" color="Blue" >Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 12:28, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

wow
This is a bit of a bad time to feel the urge to leave, isn't it? But it's not just PCA - no, it's not. I'm leaving the wiki until I want to come back. I feel the need to run now, but I won't, considering the time. :P But life is killing me and I just need a leave...I'll pop in every once and a while, but I need to catch up to life and such and such...and this wiki takes up a big portion of my life. I lavvvvv you all and there are always other ways to bug your little twit~<33333 03:34, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

DDDDX Now Twee? This is reaching a freakish climax. PCA's losing a wonderful charartist here, and the wiki's losing an awesome contributor/chat mod. Let life be good to ya, Twitty~<333 07:41, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Nooooo.... not Twi, you were an awesome contributer to the wiki and the project, and were a great chatmod. I will miss you, and so will the wiki. <span style="">10:21, 17, 04, 2012

Twee... :( I will miss you. You're one of my best friends on here. Good luck with life, and may StarClan light your path. 12:40, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

But.... But... Who'm I gonna rant to about the Hunger Games? PCA'll miss you Twee... Come back to us soon! 14:14, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Aww... D: Everyone is leaving... *sigh* We'll miss ya, Twi... Visit soon~  15:20, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Twee you are so amazing I'm sad that you are leaving. <insert Scarlets statement here> I'll miss you and your epic skills so much ;.; *waves* Goodbye m'dear, and may StarClan light your path always! 00:33 Wed Apr 18

Quick Question
I know I'm just an apprentice and I'm not supposed to tweak an image, but I also know that Iceheart (I think) tweaked an image (Jaggedtooth) when she was an apprentice. I noticed that Spottedleaf's apprentice image needed to be redone to match her other images, and I really want to do that. Scince you have done it before, may I please do her? I already have her image done. 16:51, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

No. No exceptions to the rules, that caused an immense amount of drama in that one time, and from what I remember, she was nominated to be a warrior so that it wouldn't be an exception for the rules. And no, it wasn't Iceheart, it was Leaf-storm. But no, you can't tweak them. You have to wait till you're a warrior like everyone else. We're not having a repeat of that incident. 17:51, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Get enough original projects approved and become a warrior, then you may tweak her if she hasn't been already. I'm sorry, but exceptions cannot be made :(  18:05, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Tweaks and OAs
Alright, I know paleh told Shelly to propose this, but honestly, after hearing what she had to say, I agree, and I felt the need to get this discussion going. I really think that Shelly is right that when we redo an image, it adds insult to injury to the OA, basically telling them that their art was not good enough for the project, and almost publicly humiliating them for their work that we have deemed unacceptable. I'm not sure about tweaks, but I say that we should stop doing these for redos for the reasons I stated. 18:03, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm I'd like to hear what some people who've had their images redone think about it. I've had images redone before, but honestly, I couldn't care less, so I want someone's opinion who does, would they rather be named, or not named? But for tweaks, I think we should always name the OA. It's a tweak. It's not your work. Therefore you should give credit where credit is due. 18:26, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and Icestorm gave me this comment to post on skype, so this is the opinion of someone who's a prime example of all this.

"When I get offended is when people think their chararts are better than mine. If I'm not insulted, and one of my chararts are redone, I think I'd like to be named the OA."

So yeah. I honestly like being named as the OA too, but like I said, I couldn't care less if my chararts are redone, so I'm not really one to give my opinion on that. Shelly makes a good point of it possibly being offensive, but given that comment, I'm not sure it really is. But there you go. 18:29, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

When it comes to tweaks, yeah, name the OA since their work is still there. But when it comes to redos, I see no point to naming OAs. First off, as I said and you agreed with, it's insulting in my eyes to point out the name of the person whose work has been replaced. Secondly, if they have no work left on a current image, it also pointless for the current artist to have to name someone that had nothing to do with the creation of the image they've worked hard on. This is a realization I came to quite a while ago and I've lived by this philosophy for months without anyone caring. It's not based on me thinking that I'm better than anyone. It's just me having respect for myself as well as previous charartists (or even current charartists that have had their charart nominated for a redo). If I had an image redone, I wouldn't want to be named on an image I didn't create. 18:36, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I personally think that it's nice to be named out of respect. Acknowledged that you did do the image, and had it approved, even if it is being redone now. *sits in corner and attempts to think of analogy for what I'm saying* 18:40, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary. The image doesn't belong to the OA anymore, and if somebody wants to know who has worked on it they can simply check the image history. Breeze whisker  18:49, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with all of you yes on redos the OA is unneeded but I honeslty don't care myself if I'm the OA. That's just my opinion. 21:21, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think that the first artist should be named, but nothing after that, like "Tweak by Yayay, another tweak by Peanutstar, Redone by Blahblah and now I'm redoing it". This is coming from a user who's had all/most of her chararts redone. I think it's up to the maturity of the OA. Most of them are gone, but if they are still around and can't handle it, and come complaining to the leads on chat, they should realise that everyone's had an image redone, or will soon. But that's my opinion. /shot Maple On dA and Skye 21:33, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I do tend to get annoyed at my work being redone. However, I, personally, would like to be named that I was the one who got the charart through "CBA" and approved. And by my philosophy, I still don't recognize redone work as someone elses if the original artist is a different user. The charart doesn't go through the same process as it originally did. -Shrug- There are two different opinions on this and because it'd be tedious to go to the original artists and ask, I say it should be up to the user who "redoes" the art. And off on a persuading note, I'd put the original artist out of respect, not out of shame. 21:40, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Maple. I think the first OA should be listed, and that one only. If an image of my own was redone, I wouldn't care. If anyone wants to see the other OAs, then can just look up the file on the wiki. 22:56, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think all the artists that help an image improve should be named. Not just the OA. It's a sign of respect for the artists that took the time to make the image. Whether it's being redone or not, it's stupid that the artists of the image go unamed. I usually credit everyone I see in the file upload page, regardless of the amount of work they've done.

I'm neutral on this. I think that either all the artists or none should be named. It doesn't really bug me if my work is redone or tweaked, everything is done for a reason. Once we believed there were triangle tabbies, so of course there would've been chararts made with them. Again, I'm indifferent so I'm not sure. <span style="">09:31, 18, 04, 2012

Yes, I could go both ways on this. Some people might think of it as hurtful, others out of respect. (like Atelda said) I would say that we should only say the OA with tweaks, not redos. This is just my opinion, but if someone were redoing an image, the original artist has really nothing to do with it, in my point of view. But I can see both sides of the situation. 15:56, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I understand both perspectives. Though, If I got an image approved, then it was completely redone, it's not my image anymore. Therefore, I'm not the artist of an image that was completely redone, and I wouldn't want my name listed there. Plus, I'm not a fan of redoing images, I think that all images could still be tweaked so the OA's style still stays at least a bit... 00:48, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well... I don't think when your redoing an image that the OA's should be named, since it's basically like putting something for approval, starting from scratch. <span style="">08:57, 19, 04, 2012

It's a matter of respect that the artists who worked on an image be named. Whether they're being redone or tweaked, it doesn't matter. It should be a choice whether or not they want to name the artists who worked on it. I'll always do it, since that's how I was told to when Tweak Week was around..

I like to name the OA's of the charart just a recognition and respect. And I agree with Maple's point as well. I don't think naming the OA's/users who've worked on an image is disrespectful. Though the art isn't really theirs anymore, I feel that they should get some recognition, and if they're still a member of the wiki, they'd probably get a notification that their work's been changed anyway. I guess I'm also thinking about this about writing an adaption for a book, like "Black Beauty: a children's adaption, based on the story by Anna Swell". 15:48, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Adios~
Eh. I thought this over...and I won't be on a break. Most of you SM's who hang around the chat already know this, but I've decided to leave the project for good..things just haven't seemed...right.. around here for a while, and I want a long break from it all. So, this is good bye, and I hope everything goes well for you all. ^^ 00:19, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Leggy..... You're dead lucky I'm not home right now, otherwise I would be spamming you. 'kay, all Kelsey rage aside... I really wish you wouldn't leave PCA...

No, Daddy, No! No leaving us! We'll miss you! 01:37, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Leggy, no! 8C You will be missed, but I respect your choice. =( 01:41, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Aww bye Leggy D8 Hope you come back soon! 01:56, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Farewell. I hope that your league of minions don't follow suit. 03:03, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Leggy...DDDX You should be glad I'm not in the mood for a rage/rant right now. You'll be majorly missed by all of us, but I'll respect your choice...just, try to return to us, hun. Please? 06:06, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

8O How shocking! No.... DDDX PCA will truely miss you, it wouldn't ever be the same. <span style="">09:00, 18, 04, 2012

WHAT? WHY? Leggy :(((((( 12:21, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Gah, everyone is disapparating. ;.; May StarClan the Dark Forest guide your path. 8D <font face="Arial" size="1" color="Blue" >Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 12:53, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Everyone is leaving 8c. Well, PCA will miss you! 8C  18:19, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

D8 Noo. Leggy is leaving us too? Come back soon..please? 19:57, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'm so sorry...
...but I'm leaving. Yep. You heard it. You're losing a warrior who can do a hell of a lot better job in some other project that really needs help. I'm sorry, but seeing people fight over colors, patterns, and pixels is not what I want to worry about. Once Cinderpelt's alt and Duke's kittypet are archived (I assume by the end of April) I'll be gone. If they're not, someone else take them. I'll come back when I'm ready to, hopefully sometime in late May or early June, once school's out and I have time on my hands. You guys are going to kill me for this, I know, but it's only for some weeks. <span style="">19:09, 04 18, 2012

Aww why Mooneh? I respect your decision, though. Come back soon!!-- 19:24, April 18, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

Mooneh...no...now our warriors? This is getting ridiculous...we'll miss you so much. ;.; *clings* 22:10, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

DDx Moonehhh... noo... well, it's your decision, do what you think is right ;) Come back when you feel like it. Aaand... I'm gonna miss you. PCA won't be the same without seeing your beautiful artwork on the pages of WW. Come back when you feel up to it and byeeeee 22:19, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

D'awwwww.... :( I'm sorry to hear that Mooneh. Your artwork was beautiful, hope to see you around soon! <span style="">08:42, 19, 04, 2012

This is getting old
All right. I've reached a boiling point with all this drama in this project. This needs to end. NOW. Doing art for a book series you love and displaying pride in the character articles is what this project is about, not about fighting and petty arguments. I have a few ideas on what needs to be changed, but the purpose of this section on this page is for everybody to contribute to helping the project out to be fun again. So please, if you think of something different from me, please speak up, and members, you are to hear them out and listen to them. I'm tired of people ignoring others (I know for a fact how this feels).

For one, we need to have a clear definition of what gets redone or not. I think that this is a major issue. People getting their feelings hurt because their image just isn't "real enough". True, we shouldn't have big honking triangle stripes on an orange cat with red tabby stripes, but we're getting way too nit-picky with what gets redone. If you want a phenomenal example, my image for Leaftail, while he has a pleasing pattern, this pattern is not realistic for a cat at all. There are cats who have unrealistic color + pattern combos, such as Blackstar, Brambleberry, and Shrewfoot. Heck, if the Erins even payed attention to genetics, many of the cats that exist would look dramatically different. Guys, the blanks themselves aren't even entirely realistic. For one, take the tail of the long-pelted warrior. Ever seen a cat's tail where you didn't see any tufts of fur stick out? Take another example. Cats can't smirk, and yet, the leader blank depicts a smirking cat. Finally, have you ever seen a cat with a thick black line surrounding it? I don't think so.

Now, I'm not 100% sure where the line should be drawn with realism, and that's something else we need to discuss. Where to draw the line. If need be, I can draw up the examples on our pixil blanks and upload them over my own personal image. I can do varying degrees of realism in a cat, and we can discuss whether it would be suited to be tweaked/redone or to leave it alone. Whatever you guys decide, it's fine by me. I have the time on my hands to do this. And no, the realism thing is not directed at anybody. We've all suggested pictures we thought were unrealistic that people didn't agree with.

I'm just fed up with friendships breaking apart, drama, and people leaving because of this. What they once loved, they no longer want to be a part of that, and I feel like we have failed to make this project as pleasant and as fun as it used to be. From what I remember as an apprentice and from what I've heard, PCA used to be a lot more fun, and that's what it should be, nothing more. 22:43, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Arguments about little things isn't helping anyone out. Plus, with heated arguments, users can even be scared, which isn't a good sign. 00:43, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I agree.

What?

You people are surprised? Yeah, I prefer realism myself, but I don't want to push my personal preferences on people. I only advocated it because realism was being pushed before I even joined the project, with the ginger cats all being given stripes and the y- and triangle-tabbies being gotten rid of and changed. I prefer a peaceful project to a bickering one, and there are more important things to focus on. -- 04:36, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I certainly agree. With all of this realism stuff, it's probably putting pressure on all of the newer PCA members that don't have as much experience. I know if I joined the project now like I did last year, I wouldn't be doing too well. 76.89.179.0 05:25, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, that was me. :3 ^ 05:27, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. It needs to stop, I can't stand all the friendships being lost, users leaving and all the intensity of the project. I'm not sure where to start but I'll make a begining. Once we've decided the line of realism we should put it into the guidelines.

 What should be redone due to non-realisic (my opinion) 
 * Triangle tabbies
 * Y-tabbies
 * Color (remember Squirrelflight the red firetruck?) lets not take this too far though
 * All the basics (non-realistic shading, earpink etc)

 What shouldn't be redone due to non-realisic (my opinion) 
 * Change of pelt pattern (those cats Ivy listed above)

Um.. we'll think of more. <span style="">08:36, 19, 04, 2012

Shelly, there shouldn't be a reason for people to be surprised that you agree. =) Like I told you, in chat. Anyways, guys, I don't think realism is the only problem around...Before, I left because of different reasons... But, I believe that images should not be redone for having modified triangle stripes, as those stripes can look classic to me. It may seem that drama happens from realism, but in my view, it doesn't. Sometimes, of course, but there are other factors that could cause this.

I just think we're getting to picky...Who gets to reserve an image, ect. I think that people shouldn't "call" an image to reserve, but whoever reserves it gets it. Unless they really, really, really want an image, it'd be generous to let them have it...But, really, calling images causes fights. That's one thing.

Then, of course, there's realism. But why vote 'yay on a nominate image, and then complain about too much realism? Or same goes with voting 'nay on an image. If we don't support something, but still vote yes on it, but then complain about it, what's the point of that (I take blame with this too)?

Also, it may seem as if newer members can get the wrong idea with respect, and respect users with a higher rank more then lower ranks. Then, that can cause problems, as respect it to be shared equally.

Also, possibly, we should start assuming less...Assumptions can be serious ones that can start problems.

So yeah...^^ We could work on that, as those are reasons for me when I left, including some realism problems.


 * And, once those arguments/drama starts, it will scare others, break friendships, but without a strong community that tries hard not to fight, I wouldn't call it a successful project. That way, we have failed many of our members, and set a bad example for the newer members. 15:08, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Oi...
Hi guys, I'd like to rejoin. XD I couldn't even stay away from the project for four days. I was foolish. I left because the project was getting too picky (in general), and there was too much drama. ...Instead of complaining about all these things then leaving, I should've stayed and try to create an impact by trying to change those things and make the project a better place...I'm sorry for making a foolish choice guys, I really am. So, I'd like to re-join. But if y'all can...Please help out the project with this drama situation by simply being...Hmm...Dunno, but I think this is something that we could all improve on. =) I feel that a project is truly a strong and successful project if the community stays out of drama as much as possible, and is always friendly to each other, but strong yet fair. We all contain amazing and special qualities, and there's no need to accuse or fight with others, 'cause if we put all those qualities together, it can be better than ever. =) 23:32, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Stoneh!<3 I'm so happy you're back! We will make this better. 23:34, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Mwahahhaa Stoneh couldn't stay away from the projects awesomeness x3 Welcome back! 8D  23:40, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for analyzing your choice to leave, Stoney. That's what I'm hoping my point above helps with, to help users realize that we can work together to iron out the problems instead of leaving. 23:47, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm allowed to post here... but Stony, welcome back! 8D You can make a difference if you try, I believe in you. :3 <3 05:16, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Thistle, of course you're allowed to post here. Now. (tackleglomps) Good to see you came to your senses. This project's better with you around. 06:01, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Thank StarClan your back!~<3 Great to see your back in the project, and I'm sure you can help out in many ways to stop the drama. <span style="">07:40, 19, 04, 2012

8D Stoney<3333333333 Welcome back~! It's been lonely these past 3-4 days. :3 07:48, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Welcome back to PCA! :) That was a long 4 days :P 13:26, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Dovewing
Shouldn't Dovewing have a queen image if it's confirmed she'll have kits with Bumblestripe? LiL Luv Chocolate 10:12, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe...since Cinderheart got one. Where's the cite that says she has his kits? 11:05, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I think somewhere on Kate's blog, but I'm not sure. 12:54, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I vote yes; Cinderpelt has one. But yeah, cite it first. 13:25, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I personally think that Cinderheart and Dovewing don't need queen images, since what Kate says on her blog could very well be false, and it's more of her opinion then information...But since Cinderheart got a queen image, I guess it's a yes... 14:39, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

If an author states it, unless it is later contradicted by a book (like with Lilykit and Seedkit's descriptions), then it's canon. As long as you can cite it and she doesn't say something like "Yeah, I think she'd end up having Bumblestripe's kits" or something like that, as long as she says that she has kits definitely, then yeah, we can add that information to Dovewing's article and make her a queen charart. 16:02, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

If Kate says it to be true, without the usage of "I think", or words of that nature, than yes, it's canon. She'll get a queen image like Cinderheart did, but, whether it would be her main one, I don't know.

If she says so then yes, but I don' remember her saying that that do anywhere. The closest thing is when someone asked what LionxCinder's and DovexBumble's kits names would be, and she said "my guess is as good as yours" but she could just be talking about LionxCinder, so that is not a valid cite for them having kits. She didn't answer my question on Facebook, and we can't use Vicky's answer to me as a cite either, so if you've seen it somewhere else, you need to have another citation that I have not mentioned 17:59, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Since you have decided she does get a queen image, can i reserve it?-- 22:30, April 19, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

It's first come, first serve. >.>

We need a citation first. I'll go look for it, but until then, there shall be no reserving. 22:47, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I looked at all the pages on Kates Blog (spoiler page for TLH) and I didn't see it, just her saying that they became mates. 19:51, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Welp, then, she gets no queen pixil. Sorry guys. 22:29, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Typographical Error on one of the Current Votes
Hey guys. I'm sorry I didn't notice this until today, right before this vote is set to pass, but I made a bit of an error on the the alt guideline vote. I accidentally put pale markings under what does qualify for an alt, when I meant to put them under what does not. Many of you noticed this before I did and votes nay on the guidelines because of it.

Normally I'd just cancel the vote and start a new one, but considering the fact that the vote ends in less than 24 hours and it has a majority vote for it to pass, I'll simply be allowing it to go through and I'll be starting a second vote to remove pale markings from the alt qualifications guidelines. This way no one's vote is disregarded.

Just thought you guys would want to know. I'll post a link to the new vote here tonight at midnight on the wiki clock.

Best, 17:40, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Can I join? 24.63.69.231 00:08, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but only registered users can join PCA. If you create an account, then maybe you could join ^^ 07:23, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

That's okay Shelly, everyone makes mistakes. <span style="">07:28, 20, 04, 2012

Alright, the new vote is here. Ivyheart, you might want to add this to the news. It's a small vote, so it'll only run one week rather than two. 22:36, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Ohai
Yah... I can't just sit back watching the members of this project disappear. e.o I felt kinda guilty leaving when I did, plus I miss you peoples x3 So yah... I'm rejoining the project and the wiki (Trololol I promise next time I'll use the Vacation List x3) owo I won't be visiting chat very much though, due to some drama and stuffz... Will I be added back as a warrior? ouo 00:26, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Fallow! I am so happy you're back! Welcome back to PCA. o3o 00:28, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Pouncey! <33333 Welcome back 8DD! <span style="">07:19, 20, 04, 2012

<333333333 Oh, Pouncey, what would we do without you? <333 Welcome back~ 07:21, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yay! *glomps* Glad you're back ;)  14:36, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Blueish-gray cats vs. Gray cats
It kinda hurts me to bring this up, but this is a blue cat and this is a gray cat.

We've had this discussion before and Bluestar and all related blue-gray family members were redone so that they were more realistic  14:14, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

The first one doesn't even look like it's blue, honestly.....

Well, the only blueish ca that I really know of is a Russian Blue.. How about this one? 14:35, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

For the record: When talking about animals that are not birds or fish, the word "Blue" refers to gray coloration. Even the russian blue mentioned above is just a shade of gray. 14:42, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I had to hang up early. @ Kitsufox, I know that. @ Ivy Bluestar got alts for being called gray, but since they are basically the same, I don't know if she should. @ Cloudskye, that's my whole point. @ Misty, there are others, like the Nebalung, Korat, and Chartreux, and British shorthairs usually are blue as well. 16:26, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

The current ones are much closer to blue-grey than the old ones were. The blue coloring in those really only shows up when the light is just right, otherwise those cats just look grey. Breeze whisker  03:34, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I kinda agree. If we're going to be counting gold and ginger as the same thing, Bluestar really shouldn't have alts for being gray. She is gray, in the right light. 16:04, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I tried to object to when we started giving them plain gray alts, but nobody agreed so I gave up. :P 22:51, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

This is sort of like the gray-light gray alt one shade to the next, they are basically the same thing. So I agree we shouldn't give her the alts. <span style="">01:18, 22, 04, 2012

I say that the regular gray alts should go. However, I believe she has one or two alts that I think should stay. I know for a fact her light leader alt that I made should stay because she was mentioned with pale fur, which contradicts her description, and I believe the one where she has a solid stripe on her head would stay too (should double check to make sure)  15:39, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, by the new alt guidelines, being described as light would only be a single shade shift since she isn't described as dark, and wouldn't qualify for an alt. 02:07, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Cause I can't
Sit by and watch members leave. o-o I came back, because someone talked "sense" into me. (<3 Luff ya Fallow) I was being lazy yesterday when I was writing this and completely screwed it up. But I came back and Im just gunna go be weird now. <333 19:15, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Tweeeeee~! 8D Glad to have you back too <33333 21:43, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

<3 Twee! We missed you, glad to see you come back. <span style="">01:32, 21, 04, 2012

Calling tweaks
Can I ask you guys not to call them while they're still on the tweak nominations page? I was browsing through the archives (because I'm weird) and I notice that many chararts that could be, well, interesting had people asking "Can I do this if it passes?" as they vote yay, or something alone those lines. I dunno, it just doesn't seem fair that somebody should get to call dibs on an image before it even makes it to the tweak list. After all, a lot of us don't get to vote on these images. Breeze whisker  02:15, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree on this, other members of the project deserve a chance, too. 02:32, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

But we can still comment and ask if we can do the image. And if the vote passes most of us will be allowed to vote. I don't know but I think it teaches the non-SWs to check the tweak page often, so when they become a SW they wont abandon it. 12:27, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

The vote didn't pass. So for awhile yet, we can't vote. They haven't even been approved to be tweaked or redone yet and it kinda ruins the purpose of first come first serve. 68.103.240.28 15:11, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I really need to log in before I comment. Breeze whisker  15:26, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Wild makes a good point. As warriors, you can always just comment asking for the image. And it will teach you to visit the nomination page. 15:52, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

And if you want to get the right to vote, start up the discussion again and see if you can pull it off where I could not. 16:03, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I check the nominations page all the time, and I don't really care whether or not we get to vote. To me, calling dibs on an image seems as bad as reserving one before it's approved. That's frowned upon and I don't think this is any different. Breeze whisker  17:41, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I can't...
...stay away from you guys any longer~! Even though I never actually left xD 8D So I'm not leaving...I decided not to after all. :3 <span style="">22:47, 04 22, 2012

Welcome back, Mooneh! 8D You make this project a better place. C; 22:57, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Mooneh! :D Welcome back! <span style="">07:19, 23, 04, 2012

<3 Mooneh~ Welcome back~! 07:32, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Rogue charart for Redwillow
Just an idea, would Redwillow get a rogue charart since he sorta turned against ShadowClan? o3o <font face="Arial" size="1" color="Blue" >Skt Wibbley wobbly, timey wimey 12:49, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I would say that he gets a charart. So that means that Hollowflight would get a rogue pixel too? 15:24, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

If this is true, then Hawkfrost and Thistleclaw need one as well (and maybe more that I've forgotten), and Tigerstar and Brokenstar's rogues should be their main image. 18:54, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Also, if this is true, wouldn't all the cats that turned their back on their Clans get a rogue charart? <span style="">20:28, 23, 04, 2012

No. We're discussing Redwillow because he joined the Dark Forest. Cats that are living could also join it; they don't have to be dead. We aren't just talking about cats who've broke the warrior code, we're talking about cats that have completely alienated themselves from the Clans altogether. 20:37, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, Oblivion. I think I've heard somewhere in the books that said something about the dark forest cats (residents) being rogues...? If so, I agree, so then Hawkfrost, Thistleclaw, Shredtail, Antpelt, Snowtuft, Silverhawk, and Sparrowfeather would get rogue chararts. 22:46, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Yes last I remember it was Spottedleaf who called them rogues, or said they didn't deserve to be warriors, something along the lines of that. But yes for most of the DF cats (not Ivy, Birch, or Mouse) no for shadowclanners who disbelieved in Starclan. 23:35, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I agree myself. You know, we already have a discussion about the DF cats. It can be found here, for those too lazy to search. I say we continue this discussion there, since that's basically what this is.

I didn't know we were taking the warriors images off, they should get both with the rogue as their main image, Spottedleaf said they didn't deserve to be warriors, not deputies, not apprentices, warriors, so they should keep thier images. 21:39, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Wildfire, if you can provide me with the exact quote, providing the page number as well form Fading Echoes, I will drop any argument against them having warrior images. Otherwise, we have no proof they were warriors. 21:51, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Found it. Page 230:


 * "They were rogues within their Clans. They are rogues now. That's why they're here. They never deserved to be called warriors."

That seems enough proof to me. 00:42, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Mottled vs. Speckled
Just for clarification. Is there any difference? 16:58, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I assume you're looking at Owl Feather, yes? Well, when I found that cite, I asked a few people in the chat, and they agreed that speckled is different enough from mottled to be placed in the trivia, but not enough for an alternate. I imagine this is simply because they would look too alike. 18:52, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

There kind of is. Speckled cat mottled cat 19:03 Mon Apr 23

But those images are different colours, so of course they'd look different. Since I fail too much to actually find images, let's compare Applefur to Owl Feather, imagining of course that Applefur's the same colour as Owl Feather. Not much difference between the two. 19:07, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm probably not one to talk since I don't really pay attention to anatomy (Just look at my charrie Wildstar ;) ) but I always thought speckled were smaller spots spread out more and mottled were any size spots but very close together. 23:25, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

No, I believe mottled and speckled can be very different things. First and foremost, mottled can be used to describe a number of different pelt types, such as smoke, ticked, and even tortoiseshell. Mottled is just patches of differing color, light and dark, over the base pelt (at least the way I make mottles). Speckles, on the other hand, the way I see it, are just darker flecks of fur over the base pelt. I know, it's a subtle difference, but a correctly made mottled and speckled cat are different pelt descriptions and should be treated thusly. And of course with smoke and tortoiseshell, those are -very- different from speckled 23:59, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion
Ok, I checked to see if anybody needs art, but apparantly every character has art (with the exception of cats with an unknown pelt color), so maybe it's time for a blank re-do? Just a suggestion. 21:55, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

...That's not how this project works. We did not redo the blanks because we were running out of charart, we redid the blanks because of the anatomy. 22:01, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't realize that. But what is the project to do in the meantime while we're waiting for DOTC? 22:05, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tweaks, redos, things like that. But just because we've "run out of images" doesn't mean we have grounds to make a blank. We don't make them because we feel like it, we make them because it's necessary. 22:07, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Or you could focus on projects that actually contribute to the quality of the Wiki, such as PC, PB, or PW. PCA is not the only thing on this website. 22:09, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Loonie..... three edit conflicts.... honestly. x.x But yes, Loon's right. And also, if there's no art left to do, that's a good thing. It means we've done our job. IT does not mean we should go put that work to waste by redoing a blank just cause we're bored. Go edit something else. There's plenty in other projects that have to be done, and very little in PCA. If you're that bored, there's plenty else to do on the wiki. 22:13, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

PCA isn't always about working on blanks. _-_;;;;

Seriously, find another project to work with. I, myself, lead PB, and I'm a contributing member of PC. (and y'all wonder why I have so many edits..xDD) All of the other projects have tons of work that needs to be done, so why not help them out instead of devoting all of your time to PCA? I know I don't.

To be honest, one of the reasons that I'm taking a break from my SW duties and trying to contribute less is so that I can make more contributive edits to the Wiki. If you've looked at the recent activity, you should notice that I'm trying to help out with the Erin Hunter Chats since they can use cleanup, citations, and trivia added to articles. Please do not think that we redo blanks and images just because we can, because that is detrimental to throw away all of our hard work just for that. But yeah. If you can't find anything to do here, there's plenty to do elsewhere on this Wiki, trust me. 05:10, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Pro-pro-Proposal
Hi guys! You know, this is kinda what I do, so...

Yeah. On with it.

I think tweak and redo nominations should be paused for a few weeks. The list of chararts that need to be taken care of has piled up enormously and we need to catch up before we suggest any more, in my opinion. We're leaving chararts undone to persue more interesting projects and eventually forgetting about them. Like Runningwind's kit image, which has remained un-matched to the other chararts since February. It'd just be temporary, of course.

I know my to-do list has piled up a bit. I'd like a while to just sit and do chararts that are already listed on the approved redo/tweak lists.

So, comments? I'm all for opinions and ideas, even if they contradict my own. Especially an idea for how long this pause should be. 23:36, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Like I said on Skype, this is a great idea. We've just been nominating images and not doing anything about them. 23:39, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

As I told you already Shelly, I agree. Those have been piling up for too long. I'm not sure how long we should stop it though, guess it really depends how fast we get through the list. I'd say if we got at least half way through we could probably open them back up, but I'm not sure. 00:11, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I was just thinking this the other day when I was debating on nominating Patchpelt. I agree. Those poor solid cats will never get done. I think we might as well go until the list is nearly done. We could always start a topic again when we think we've done enough of them. Breeze whisker  01:31, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree, let the ones on there get voted on then pause it for a while. 01:37, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, there is so many tweaks we need to get through, and we need to get them done. <span style="">06:25, 24, 04, 2012

You could always set a rule in which when the list hits X long (i'm not familiar enough with the number of items the list tolerable has, and what represents a backlog, so I won't suggest numbers) the tweaks process is closed to new tweaks until such time as the list is cleared. It would be a good way to force the cycling of "undesirable" tweaks so that people can repopulate the list with tweaks they really want to do. 13:42, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Good idea, Kit. I'm up for a rule that says ^^that^^. I'm also up for closing the tweak nominations page until those images are done. I, myself, have quite a backlog of images I'd like to get done, but I keep finding other images that are in need of being done. xD

That sounds good to me as well. Shall I put it to a vote, or shall we continue this discussion? 19:07, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Vote. This is probably the shortest discussion we've ever had... 19:19, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I was actually thinking about this today xD I agree with the voting. 21:36, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Agreeing. <span style="">02:09, 25, 04, 2012

I made the vote, then. Look here. 02:18, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Jumping the gun
Man, I am going to start getting a reputation for being the bad guy if I keep on like this. After this (though I will moderate my two dicussions that I have going) I do seriously need to take a break.

Chatter aside, you guys are really jumping the gun and need to hold your horses. We have not come to a conclusion about whether or not the residents of the Dark Forest who we don't know what they were before they died, what pixil they would get. I checked the discussion, and we have not decided on what they get, and even on the Redwillow discussion, we have not fully decided on it. Discuss it on that forum and make sure that the majority agrees, and give other members the chance to agree with your discussion. Guys, I'm sorry to be the bad-guy, but none of these images should even be reserved, let alone be on the approval page yet. Unless I'm missing some new forum that you guys created, then please link me so I can be updated on these matters. 05:28, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

This doesn't mean that my Redwillow rogue has to be declined, right? His image has nothing to do with those four DF residents. 19:23, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Jumping the gun or not, that discussion sat there for ten days without anyone saying anything. We were going somewhere with it, and the conversation died all of the sudden. I only reserved Snowtuft because someone told Mounty to make Sparrowfeather's alt a rogue image, and since that's the one on her page, I figured that was the lineart we were going with. If anything, then that image shouldn't be on her page at all.

I agree. I figured since Sparrowfeather got a rogue, and we had a pretty good consensus from a lot of people. We also had concrete evidence from the books (Spottedleaf) that these cats should be considered rogues. 19:35, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

You know what? Forget it. Do what you guys want... 20:29, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

New Blanks?
I said I was going to start one of these! XD But we really need to get our blank situation settled, because we had a conversation on 'other leader' blanks awhile back and we haven't talked about it since, and some users (though a small percent) still think we should have mentor blanks (myself included). If you have any other ideas for blanks put them here for the project to discuss. And if a majority thinks we ne a new blank then we could have a vote or something. 12:07, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

"Mentor" isn't really considered a rank, is it? And... what do you mean by "other leader blanks"? I'm thinkin' maybe for the mentor blanks, but it's technically a job, not a rank, and almost every cat would get one. Besides... what would they look like anyway? This is just my opinion... disagree if you feel you want to. 13:00, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Mentor should never get a blank. Blanks as for ranks, not for tasks. For the "other leader" blank, that was a discussion from ages ago, discussing the use of the "Leader" blank from the clan set for cats who lead a group, but are not clan leaders. 13:39, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

We've already said no to the mentor blanks at least three times. We don't need to bring those up again. However, the non-clan leader blanks quite a few people supported, and the discussion was just dropped..... I still support those. 14:07, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

"Mentor" is not a rank, as everybody has pointed out. If there were Mentor blanks, we would have to have messenger blanks, patrolling blanks, ect. Also, it would be too much extra work. It's unneeded in my thought, and just a way to kill boredom when there aren't any chararts to do. 14:39, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

This is the at least the third or fourth time someone has suggested this...and the answer is no, each and every time. A mentor is not a rank. It's a job given to them by a leader of a Clan. If we made a blank for them, we'd need one for a Senior Warrior, a Patrol Leader, ect. It's useless and would take up way too much time. Guys, actually read the archives on why we're against ideas like this before suggesting them again. It's the same every time.

No I get that Stoney pretty much has exactly why I want the mentor blank, but I'm not all for it I think we couild live without one. But the reason I made this is because I'm sick of waiting a month before someone proposes a new blank that we need. So basically I just want to get all the blanks we need done. As for the other leader blank I don't know if we need one. And I know this is kind of unrelated but queens and kits are the same for all cats, but apprentices and leaders aren't. I get why, but it isn't very consistent, tribe queens are called kit-mothers, and there apprentices are called to-bes. But the blanks for the queens and kit-mothers are the same and apprentices and to-bes are different. 21:29, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

what do you mean that's why you want one? You want one cause you're bored? And also, it's not we can live without them, we're not having them. At all. Like we've said, this has been brought up about 4 times, and we've decided without a doubt they're not needed. 05:02, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Hawkheart
I'm not sure, but I have a... proposal? Do you think Hawkheart was described as a gray cat with gray flecks... or could the gray flecks have been there by... age or something? Because cats fur does turn gray when the cat gets old, and undoubtedly, Hawkheart had been around for a long time, since he was a warrior, then a medicine cat (though not mentioned in Into The Wild) I don't know if this is right. If it isn't, I'm sorry and I stand corrected, but I just thought I'd bring this idea to life. 12:55, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

What exactly are you proposing? He has an alt for it already, and the alt stays. We have no proof it's from age, and since it goes against description, he keeps the alt. 14:06, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Joing request for ChanCharm
Hi, I want to join this project to make it a better place. I'm fairly decent at art and cat anatomy, and I'd think I could be some use here. Thank you for your patience. :) ChanCharm 03:56, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Welcome, please read the guidelines and refer to the tutorials or request a mentor if you need help. 04:41, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Great Clan warrior images.
I didn't know whether to consult PC or PCA about this but I thought since it is about charcter images, I should come here. I LeopardClan, LionClan and TigerClan warriors should have either chararts or images like the pages Badger and Dog. I can get images (Just as anyone else can) from Google Images. But I was just suggesting maybe the Great Clan cats should have personal images. <span style="background-image:-moz-radial-gradient(center,#00FBFF,#FF00FF); -moz-border-radius: 12px 4px; -webkit-border-radius: 12px 4px; padding: 1px 5px 0px 5px;"> Berry Gradients, gradients...  12:19, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

There are a few problem with having blanks for the Great Clans. We'd basically need three different ones. I mean, look at the differences between lions, leopards, and tigers. Not to mention the anatomy in all three is very tricky. Breeze whisker  13:31, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I need to say no to thid idea sorry. Why? Because as Breezey said, the anatomy of these great cats is tricky, and there are only so little great clan characters, it would be too much work, really, and unneeded. 14:10, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

The great Clan characters are characters, so we can't give them images like we have on the badger or dog pages. And we just aren't making images for them. There's no point, and we don't even have descriptions for most of them aside from their species or the color of Sunstar's mane. 14:16, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I actually like the fact that the Great Clans should have images, but I don't think we should make entirely new blanks for so few characters. I was thinking about more of making the images, and for Sunpelt and Goldenstar, we could add manes. I personally would love to help with this if it passes, as I am an animal expert. 18:49, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

There's like what, 4 great clan warriors? 5? We don't even have full descriptions for them. They don't need images. And Bluestar, that'd be inaccurate, lions, leopards, and tigers are very different from house/feral cats. 20:19, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Hm. It's an idea, only... we only know about a few of them, and there's just not a ton of description... eh. Yeah, rethinking this and... no. Sorry. In other words, what Paleh said. 04:01, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Agreeing, I don't see the point when the anatomy is so tricky, and there are about only 1-2 cats with descriptions. <span style="">07:42, 26, 04, 2012

I'm agreeing as well. They're not animal pages, like badger or dog. And they're not domestic/feral cats, like what Warriors focuses on. We've got about, what? 5, maybe 6 that we know. Seriously, there's not enough. Seriously, that isn't big enough. 11:57, April 26, 2012 (UTC)