Forum:Kit system

Kit System I really don't find this fair. I mean, I get why apprentices can't do charart in Tweak Week - but if a user joins a project, it's for the user to participate. Not to wait an entire month before they can. I don't get this, really. I think it's unfair to the users who are looking forward to join the Project. 19:41, July 29, 2011 (UTC) I second your opinion. Rowanflight (Firestar1122000) 20:24, July 29, 2011 (UTC) Are you suggesting that we get rid of the kit system, or revamp it? if so, you're going to haveto give some sort of special privilidge to apprentices to distinguish the two. Honestly, I like the idea, because when you directly became an apprentice (when I joined), a lot of people joined the project, did a charart and expected it to get approved right away, and when it didn't, they got tiffed and quit the project. The kit system shows a user's devotion to becoming an apprentice. 20:33, July 29, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Icestorm. Yeah, I'm a warrior of the project, but, it's not really fair. Also, if a user is a kit, and a new book comes out or something, they have to wait, giving everyone else a chance to get the characters before they can. 20:35, July 29, 2011 (UTC)

Well, then, we need to decide if we're getting rid of the kit system, or treating them like apprentices and giving a privilidge to the apprentices (I'm not saying that to be greedy, but if you want to keep the kit ranking then you guys are going to have to) 20:55, July 29, 2011 (UTC)

I honestly don't like the kit system. How about if a user is inactive for more than a month without warning they get removed? Because apparently the entire "kit system" was because users weren't active or something like that... 22:46, July 29, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know...I thought it was because new apprentices got pissy when their art got critiqued. 22:52, July 29, 2011 (UTC)

I also had another thought. We could shorten the amount of time a user is a kit, example, a week? 00:26, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I disagree we need the kit system because some people leave once they learn how to make one for themselves but a month is too long so maybe a week or two just so they can learn. Wildfire 00:52, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

If we get enough people to agree, I think it should go to a vote. I think a week (and a half?) might be a good amount of time to make a user a kit 01:12, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

That seems fair, to shorten the span. I agree to the comments above as well, I didn't really pay attention to the kit system, but now I see what you all are saying. Many kits in the past had wanted to do a charart (say for Crookedstar's Promise) but didn't get the chance to do so. So I agree to shortening the span, it will also save the trouble of "It's been a month!" And "Can I be an apprentice? It's been a month." and all of that :3 01:51, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

While it's a bit irksome, I can see why they do it. It's like kits in the books: in the six moons the kits stay in the camp they become integrated into clan life and learn how things work. They get all the silliness out so they'll be truly ready when their real training begins. It's the same here. In the month you're a kit, you watch and learn how the project works so you can be ready when it's your turn to make character art. 02:03, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to speak as a non-member looking in, so bear that in mind when you read this. The Kit system is counterproductive. Creating art is a physical skill. The best, in fact the only, way to learn a physical skill properly is to do that thing. If you want to keep the kit rank, make it the period during which the user must prove themselves, by doing their first piece for the project (and limit them to one claim during that time or something. I think you permit multiple claims the rest of the time). You might want to emulate the way the books are working, but when that interferes with the effectiveness of a project, it's inappropriate. You already limit (out of practicality) the number of char art pending at once, why limit what members of the project can actually participate on top of that? This is the only project that requires membership to work it, why should membership require an unnecessary period in which they member cannot contribute? If the user fails char art piece one and number finishes it, then let that weed them out, not them loosing interest in the project while an arbitrary waiting period is met. And if new members get irritated over crit, them duff them out for being unwilling to take constructive criticism. The process of refining a piece is a fundamental part of this project. The rank system is currently unnecessarily deep, a waiting period is unreasonable and unnecessary. Get people making art and proving skills. if they don't have the skills, have them come back after they've practiced a bit on their own. 02:17, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

After reading that, I recend my comment and say go with Kitsu's idea. Kits get one image with which they can proove themselves? Sounds good to me. But, for the record, at least kits do get to make an imput by criticizing the images pending approval. 02:45, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

You know, this IS getting kinda long, don't things involving changing the project go on the forums? Or can this continue being discussed here? And Kitsu, I do see what you mean. I think that a month of doing very little but critiquing is counter-productive, because by then they may have lost steam, along with interest in the project. 02:48, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think what people need to realise is that not everybody is able to do charart to the standard required to the project. This project has become something that people want to do to make themselves seem 'cool' but not everyone has the skills, or will ever have them. That sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. I think the wiki needs a change of focus, where every project is seen as equally important and anyone who contributes anything is made to feel welcome and part of the in-crowd, not feeling like they have to join a certain project to be recognised. That's something not easily solved overnight, but I think when it does happen you'll have less members anyway and only those who really have an affinity for charart will be wanting to join (for the most part). I agree with Kitsu that people need to be able to accept critique, and have the skills in the first place. Not everyone is good at visual art and that needs to become okay. 08:35, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'm also going to point out, that you'll have less problems if you stopped being so finicky over little things. I keep seeing discussions going back and forth between 'darken the shading' 'lighten the shading' 'make the ear pink bigger' 'smaller' 'more red' 'less red' etc. There is no correct way to do a charart as long as there is a clear light source, shading to show that, and it looks as realistic as possible. If it is an accurate and professional-looking representation of the character then it should be approved. Not just commenting and being fussy because you don't like a certain thing. If it's not explicity wrong then it may be down to taste... I know this is off-topic, but if you get charart moving through the page more quickly then this project might eventually reach its goal, thereby rendering this discussion irrelevant anyway. 08:40, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not liking the kit system so much. While it has cut down on "blossmhart3423465 got the character I wanted to do. I quit!" Type of situations, a month is too long. How about we try a week + a first character, like Kitsu said. Perhaps in that week they have to have posted at least five construstive critiques? Maybe it'd be hard to keep track of, though... I agree with Sandy, as well. I almost feel nervous about doing ear-pink, it's never been my strong suit, and honestly... it's such a small part xD. Darkhallows Enter the cave? 10:37, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I don´t like this too. And about Tweak week... could help the volunteers?! When I saw Jaggedtoohts rogue image I say: please.please,please! Leaf-storm,11:47,July 30,2011 (UTC)

Sandy, doing any kind of art in the public means you'll have to put up with constructive criticism, even for the little things. It ensures the best quality for the website. There's no way we should put harsher guidelines on that. We already have it so no one repeats what others are saying and no one criticizes too harshly. It's not like people are coming on here saying 'OMG U SUX'. We're critiquing to help artists get better. 13:09, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Returning this to topic: I think any waiting period is inappropriate to this project, and I'm happy that many of you see the truth of that. This project isn't for training artists, it's for getting the art done. The Kit system is currently for training. If you guys want to train artists, find somewhere that's not already got a job to do it at is my recommendation. People should never join a project and be told that they're not permitted to start working. Accept them into the project and use the kit period to prove they have the skills the project needs. If they don't have what the project needs, then let them go and read the bagillion tutorials (half of which teach a single technique) on their own time and put in a little practice. 13:31, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Shellheart: I'm more than familiar with constructive critism and critiques thank you. There's quality and then there's people without the necessary knowledge over-critiquing a piece of work until it becomes worse than it originally was. I've seen it happen time and time again, and whilst I agree that details are important, this project also has a goal to reach at some point in the foreseeable future. Not that you'd believe it with the attitudes one can see around here. This project is not about critiquing to help artists get better, it's about art for the articles, and however much you want to sugarcoat that and pretend it's just for fun, it's not. If that's your attitude towards the project, I suggest you rethink your reasons for being here. I completely agree with you, Kitsu: this project is not for making people better artists (try deviantart.com or some website dedicated to art, if that's what you're here for), it's for the articles. 20:14, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Sandy, I get what you're saying, but we want our images to be as good as they can be, even it means fixing the little things. But I do get what you mean, a great-looking image having to repeat a full CBA over, "blur the earpink." The kit system is bittersweet, as said up there. It shows whether they are truly devoted, or just came because they felt like it. And limiting them to no chararts for a month is harsh. Yet I don't think they should get images needing to be done, because if they aren't the greatest artist, it can take months for it to get placed on the page it belongs to. Mintclaw I may be bad, but I'm good at it! 01:43, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this project is about making accurate visual representations of characters to put on character articles, not making people better artists (though I did get better a little bit in art because of this project ^_^). Mintstar, I get what you're saying about making the chararts look as good as they can be, but it doesn't really matter as long it portrays the character accurately.

Now, the kit system. -sigh-. It's pretty much for users to become better and practice. Like I said, it doesn't matter if the charart's good enough, but it should portray the character accurately. For the most part, users join this project because they want to do chararts and have fun. Becoming a kit and waiting for a month isn't really fun for them. They can only comment on others' work. But it probably would teach them that it isn't about making chararts and making them look good and having fun, that it's about making them to be put on articles, so I think the kit system should stay and not be shortened. 17:19, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

If the kit system is removed, which i dont think it should, but shortening it a bit might be good, we should start inforcing the rule that if a charart has been in approval for more than a month(or 2 i cant remember) then it will be declined. If an image has been uo for that long and hasnt been approved, its probably not going to be. 17:28, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

Yea, I dont think its fair, for ALL reasons above. You get removed from the project after 1 month inactivity, and *boom* you have to be a kit for a MONTH. I say remove it and/or shorten it. 19:48, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

I definetally think it should stay, but we have to fix the flaws of it. (I know, I've put my input on this about 1,000 times already xD) Another thing we could do to proove that they were doing their homework, we could always ask them a couple questions, such as "if you were to make Firestar's apprentice image, what would it's filename be?" maybe after a couple of days of joining. 19:53, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

I say we should have a simple charart (a shorthaired brown warrior) that they could do when they think they're ready and if It looks like they read the tutorial and know what they're doing they become an apprentice. Wildfire 21:34, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

If the waiting time for a kit is shortened then the talk page would get clustered with "It's been a week, can I be an apprentice now?" Making users wait a month, though, is unfair. Making users do a "test" charart would be a good idea, however, where would we put all the "test" chararts? Plus we have enough pictures as it is. Right now we're having uploading issues, most likely, due to the amount of pictures we have already. Also, by declining chararts that have been up for more than two months can also be unfair. There are many lapses in comments, going from 4+ days, because most users are on top of their chararts in reuploading them. I propose to keep the kit system but perhaps move them up to apprentices when the leads see that they are commenting. They could possibly have the ability to do a charart even if they are kits, and if leads see that they are taking constructive critisim well move them up to apprentices. Give them say, a month or two, to prove their activeness, and then move them up to apprentices. Perhaps even warriors should be able to move up a kit. It's an idea. 00:59, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Hm, good idea. They could do a charart and the leader, deputy, or a senior warrior of their choice could see it and ift hey think it is good, move them up a level? If they don't, tell them gently they will give them perhaps a week or so to test them and make them an apprentice? To the comment above Atelda's - maybe we could post them on Tinypic or something like that? Or through email? 15:00, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Email would be a good idea. All the leads could put a link to it on their userpage and it wouldnt ruin the wiki uploader. 15:40, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

About what Kitsu said about training, I agree. There are plenty of tutorials that kits can look at, instead of just waiting around doing nothing. ShadeySet Fire to the Wind... 17:51, August 2, 2011 (UTC)

I was a kit for a month (actually a little more :P) and I agree that yes, it was a little long. I like Icestorm's idea. We could use iaza too, an image uploader. And yes, when they become a kit, some member of PCA could post a link of a tutorial on their talk page. 02:25, August 4, 2011 (UTC) I think the practice charart is a good idea. The person could just contact a lead, give them their email then send their practice charart to them. 03:38, August 4, 2011 (UTC)

How do we put this thing to an official vote? 19:11, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

Should we put up a poll on the project page? or make a new page for it? 19:15, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

I say a new page, since it doesn't so much have to do with the images as the members. 20:27, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

For one, we don't have a clear idea on what we're voting for. Another is if we are going to do a vote, then it would be on a forum and a lead should do it. 20:32, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

And we're going to have to be able to vote on the one we want: shortening the time, 5 good critiques, a test, and/or a practice charart test. 14:31, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Before we open that, I'd just like to say that when I thought up the idea for the kit system, I was thinking in terms of the wait to test the devotion of the new users to the project but Sandy and Kitsu have some very good points that I never considered. I still think that we should keep the wait, but maybe add kits in groups, say if a cluster of users join as kits within a week, they're added in a group, like a litter so every week, say on Sundays, the Leads add the new group of kits to the apprentice list. It might make it easier to keep track. The other thing is, when I was thinking in the way of the wait, I was hoping that they'd prove their interest in commenting and watching the talk page like kits do in the books and Shellheart is a perfect example. I guess I was also hoping that leads would be able to watch the kits' activity levels, but now that I am one, I realize how impossible that would be. I am determined to try and make this work but others aren't interested, I'll let it go. Ideas? ♌The Star that cannot Return  to the Heavens ♌ 00:21, August 9, 2011 (UTC)