Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Redoing Images?
Okay, FEEL FREE to COMPLETELY disagree with me. But anyways, I'm starting not to like the rule, when someone redos an image, they have to do the rest of the character's images. I know it's a fine idea and all, but people sometimes don't follow that rule, and the images turns out fine. People actually don't follow that rule quite often. Besides, without the rule, it would give more warriors a chance to tweak an image. Bottom line, I'm not so happy with this rule, and there are so many rules in PCA. 01:13, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I might not be a warrior but when I am one, that is one rule we can do with out. I just want to tweak charart's so i know how to do those certain types of cats, like white's or tabbies or torties, and others. I don't want to have to follow taht because that limits the amout of charart's you can tweak and i find it unfair. Rain face &lt;3 01:16, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

To me, if you can copy the other artist's stripes or markings, you're fine. The user who has done the first image shouldn't have the act to focus on everything else. If you can copy, then do it, in my opinion. 01:24, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

How about asking permission from the person first before redoing an image that they were supposed to? (kinda like redoing an image & asking a lead) That way people wont bring the rule up when this occurs - 01:27, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I did that with Wildheart. I don't like this rule either, and we aren't exactly following it at the moment. Since it was created, we've violated it at least 10 times. 01:40, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I still like the idea, but maybe not make it so much a rule but more a basic good idea. So maybe, say that it's a good idea but not an actual rule. Other users would be given the chance to do characters that have been started by other users. i.e. Say I did Firestar's leader again but Stoneclaw decided to try his warrior. That'd be fine, but if the charart becomes to difficult, the other artist could be asked to do it since it only takes about 2-5 days to get approved. Thoughts? - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 01:47, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I can see what you guys mean, but, this is in place too to prevent a person from redoing an image then not doing the rest. Take me doing Goldenflower for example. I did a very complicated tabby pattern for her. Now, if I had just left it, maybe somebody else might do her queen. But they get frustrated because 1) they don't have her base colors and/or 2) It's too complicated for them to perfect. Also, I would have been kind of frustrated with someone doing one of her images because I knew exactly how her stripes were supposed to look on both sides of her, and that's something else to take into consideration. I'm not saying we have to stick to the rule, but I do rather like it. I do like the idea of it being a guideline, but fights could break out if, say, I did Goldenflower's warrior, then somebody did Goldenflower's kit, and I had wanted to do all of her images and there was nothing to say who was right. 01:58, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I like Scarletwind's idea. So (another example) lets say I for some reason re-did my first image, Skyheart, and all of the other images had to be redone. Someone could as me if I could do one of the other images, and I'd reply either yes or no. If no one ever asked me if I could do one of the other images, then I'd automatically do it. How's that? I am terrible at explaining things, so if that was difficult to comprehend then tell me. 02:43, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Ivystripe and Scarletwind. I think that the rule should stay, because the artist who did one rank knows the style and has the colors, but if someone askes if they can re-do the image, the one who was re-doing all the other images had to reply a yes or a no. If they say yes, and the one now doing the rank with permission finds it too difficult, the original artist doing all the ranks can take over. 05:32, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if I like the idea of it being a rule, I think I like it being an idea. What do you guys think about this? 05:54, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think an idea is better than a rule. 05:31, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Scarletwind. 05:12, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I like Scarletwind's idea as well. 20:34, November 14, 2011 (UTC) Shadewing

I like Scarletwinds ide too, but like Ivystripe said, it doesnt sovle the problem of having only one image done and the rest being left. 00:25, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just stick with the rule, it stops problems if you ask me, although I can't really talk as I'm only an apprentice. As Ivystripe stated, the artist doing all the other ranks will find it a lot easier to do the other chararts. 05:07, Mon, Nov, 28, 2011

Have we come to a decision on the matter? It seems so, as people have been breaking the original rule willy nilly (lol that expression) but I'm pretty apathetic on the topic, so don't count on me for a vote. 02:38 Fri Dec 2

Alts
I've got a few questions on alts.

First off, would Lionblaze get an alt (after the apprentice blanks are finished of course) for his CotC picture? He looks more speckled than a tabby, however he DOES have very clear strips on his head (tabby M) and the tip of his tail. Normally I wouldn't ask this, but since Silverstream seems to be getting an alt for only having one stripe, I figured I'd ask.

Second of all, if a ginger cat that's DESCRIBED as a tabby is shown as a solid cat in the manga (in black and white, not on the cover) would they get an alt? I know all ginger cats have stripes, but if the cat is specifically described as a tabby, then shown as a solid in black and white, meaning you can't tell for sure if it's ginger or not, I would think they would. Like for example, Sharpclaw is a ginger TABBY, but is shown as a solid cat in the manga, whearas Billystorm is just a ginger cat (never described in book as a tabby) and he's shown as a solid cat. I think Billystorm wouldn't get one, because in the Erin's eyes, Billystorm very well could be ginger solid, but Sharpclaw is described as a tabby, but shown solid, so shouldn't he get an alt? Same with Jaggedtooth.

Also, just one last question, why was Ashfur tweaked to look like his CotC picture, but all the others got alts for them? Sorry for the long post. XD ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  10:44, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I think if a ginger tabby cat is shown as a solid, then it should get an alt. I don't know why Ashfur got tweaked to look like the CotC picture, and I'm not sure about Lionblaze. 08:00, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Lionblaze, I'm not sure about. Speckled tabby is different, so I'm leaning towards yes, but I want a couple more opinions. Ashfur, I got no idea why he looks like that, but he does look nice. As for ginger cats, I'm gonna say, no alts. - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 03:07, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

I like how Ashfur looks too, I just wondered why it was different for all the other characters. XD As for the ginger cats, why not? We don't KNOW that they're ginger in the books since it's black and white, and they're shown as solid when they're originally described as tabbies in the book. So why wouldn't they? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  22:15, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Lionblaze yes, ginger cats no. We already established Erins dont care for genetics, why would that change for the manga? 00:05, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

That's me point though! We don't KNOW that they're ginger in the manga! We just know they're described as ginger tabbies in the books, and then they're shown as solid grayscale cats! They're being shown as solid, which goes against they're description, regardless of the pelt color. Am I making any sense? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  13:05, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

With that kind of logic we can make a grayscale cat for every cat ever shown in the manga. 22:04, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

You're not getting my point here. They're shown as a solid instead TABBY and black and white. Not if it was color, and they were shown as ginger, it wouldn't matter, cause we have to make all chararts on here tabby. But since we don't know it's ginger, and it's shown as a solid cat, which is going against the description, I think they should get one. If it were a gray tabby, or even a brown tabby that was shown as solid in the manga, they'd get an alt. The only thing that stopped us from giving ginger cats an alt is that all ginger cats HAVE to have stripes. But since it's not clearly shown that the cat IS ginger in the alt, however it IS solid, we wouldn't have to make it a tabby, so therefore they would get an alt. I don't think anybody's understanding me, are they? -.- ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  23:59, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I get your point, but the Erins dont care about genetics, the wouldnt start caring just for the manga. There isnt a colour we could give them anyway, Im not willing to say gray because then were saying every cat in a manga should get an alt, so even if i did agree that they deserved alts, theres not colour to make them. 00:03, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the erins don't care about genetics. I understand that. But they described them in the book as tabbies, then go against that in the manga. And why not make the gray? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  00:05, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Because before we know it people will be trying to make gray alts for all the characters. I get your point that if they were tabbies but called solid, they should, but we dont have a colour to go with so theres no way to make an alt. 00:14, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Well yeah, we don't really know what the colors are for any of the cats in the manga, but we don't know they're wrong, so they really shouldn't get alts. Why would people start making them? I don't understand. I would think the solid cats would get alts in gray, because that is technically what they're shown as. Since they need a color since they're getting an alt for a reason OTHER than the color, why would making them gray mean everybody would go and make gray alts for all cats? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  00:23, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think what Iceheart's trying to say is that even though it seems logical to assume that they would be ginger (if the manga was in colour) because they are described as ginger tabbies, you still don't know for sure. For all you know, the author of the manga would have completely screwed up and made them gray or brown or any other solid colour, for that matter. I don't think they should get alts. 02:13 Wed Nov 30

I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying Wildy. I'm not saying to make them ginger. I'm saying since they're shown as solid in the manga, regardless of their base coat color, shouldn't they get alts if they were described as a tabby in the books? And I'm just saying we should make those alts gray since we don't officially know what color they are, like you said, we just know that they're solid when they're supposed to be tabby. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  04:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Oh okay. Well I still don't really think they should get alts as everything in the manga is grayscale, and as previously stated, the manga authors could have meant them to be brown or ginger or gray, so we'd really just be taking a stab in the dark at it. Doesn't make much sense to me to make an alt for a cat that you know is solid-coloured, but that colour is unknown. 07:08 Wed Nov 30

Ok, I think I get it. But then, why did Sunfish get a charart if that's the case? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  15:55, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Well, we concluded that since she was a light colored she-cat, she would get one. I'm kinda iffy about hers since the decision, I feel, was made on a whim, and we don't know her exact color. But it wasn't my choice to make  02:28, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

First batch of winners! And part two of the contest!
I'd like to announce the first batch of contest winners here:

Apprentices Spring: Fallowpounce Summer: Loudsplash Fall: Leopardclaw Winter: Mountainheart

Warriors and Leads Spring: Moonleaf Summer: BlueOrca & Scarletwind TIED Fall: Shellheart Winter: Ivystripe

Congrats, all of you!

Part two of the contest is here: User:Atelda/PCA Contest (Part 2) Submissions

(btw, I think it'd be appropriate is perhaps the winners were featured in the news part of the main page of PCA ^^ )

04:08, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I'll add it ^^ 04:44 Sat Nov 26

Can anyone enter still? 04:55, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

No, Wildfire. Only those listed above can enter. However, everyone can vote. xD 04:56, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Can I join? 04:56, November 26, 2011 (UTC)Hazeleye

No, only those that won part one can enter. But feel free to make a charart that fits the theme. ^^ 04:58, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Okay got it. 05:00, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Wha? I got TIED with Scarlet?! Ohoho, this second round is gonna be interestinnggg B) - 19:50, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations to all the winners and good luck in the next round! 22:17, Sat, Nov, 26, 2011 22:17, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

A Suggestion
Haha, not a day goes by when I don't get an idea about how to improve the project! This idea comes straight from Warriors, and I thought it would be a good idea now that we have the mentor system in place.

I'd like to propose the rule that no senior warrior can become deputy (and by extension, leader) without having mentored at least one apprentice to warrior level. I feel this will ensure that our leaders will be consistently more in touch with the projects members, from the apprentices to the leads, and that they gain a bit of wisdom that comes with teaching someone (you know, the same reasons warriors can't be deputies in the books without being mentors first). Of course, this rule would not be retroactive, meaning it would not apply to the current deputy and leader, but it would apply to all future leaders and deputies.

I got support for this on the chat, but I'd like to see if the project as a whole supports this before I propose it as a vote. Thanks! 05:11, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Hm. I like this idea. I don't see why not. You got my support, Shelly. 05:14 Sat Nov 26

Not everyone wants to mentor an apprentice. What if they're amazingly skilled, but don't want to mentor? It doesn't seem fair to me, mentoring doesn't suit some members' forte. 05:20, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

That's the point, Splash. Skill isn't everything. To be a leader of anything, you have to be able to handle many aspects of the thing you lead. 05:22, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... I like this idea, but there are some problems with it as seen above ^ but we could find something else for users who don't want an apprentice... so yeah :) -- 06:02, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. If the leader/deputy can manage to train somebody else to make chararts well, then you know they'll be able to help everybody in the project. It would show their patience and dedication. Making good chararts is one thing, it's a whole 'nother to be able to be patient enough with people well enough to lead anything. ~Breezewhisker~ 06:54, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I support! This is a great idea. ^^ I was thinking about it myself when we first put up the mentor program, but I just kinda dropped the idea after a while. XD However, what if the mentor did all they could, and was a great teacher, but their apprentice went inactive. It doesn't really seem fair to me in that case. They were willing to take on an apprentice and did a good job teaching them, but the apprentice decided to become inactive. Is there something we can do to get around that? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  09:24, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Great idea! Though I do support, there may be some problems, like the one Splash mentioned. Since we are connecting with the book here, can I just throw out a suggestion for the mentor program? I think that the leads should pair up the mentors and apprentices, like who would be the best match. In the series, cats just couldn't go up and ask for them to be mentors. (with an exception from Rainflower xD) Though there may be some complications with this, like if they don't have enough time or work and stuff, then they may be 'excused'. Sorry for my terrible explaining skills.. xD  14:59, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I like this idea too. If Splashpelt's problem happens, they could still be deputy shouldn't they? Same as Brambleclaw's situation. He didn't have an apprentice, but he was loyal and willing to protect ThunderClan whenever he could. If a sw hasn't had an apprentice, but they're still hard working and have great chararts, it wouldn't be fair for them to not become deputy. I still agree though, but maybe it would be better if the project didn't have too many rules.. 22:28, Sat, Nov, 26, 2011

If they don't want to mentor an apprentice, nothing anyone says or does is going to change that. We are in no way, shape or form going to force any member to take on an apprentice. In fact, as good of an idea this is, I don't support it all of the way. It shouldn't be mandatory for a user to mentor another in order to become a project lead. That's just stupid, and honestly, not very fair. What if they're not good at explaining things, or they just don't have the time or patience? If they don't want to mentor someone, they don't have to in order to become a lead. It's not fair. 22:32, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

It wouldn't be for becoming a lead, just for becoming a deputy and head of project. And my point is that our leaders should be able to do these things, should be able to explain to others how to do things and have the patience to do so as well. If they don't have the time for that, how would they have time to be an active leader? If a leader is inactive, it's bad for the entire project and they get bumped to be replaced by the deputy. That's just how it is, and I think it's fair. Also, Mistypebble, I suppose it could just say that the user needs to show good mentoring ability instead of having to mentor an apprentice to graduation. 22:40, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Hey, now. I'm a lead, and I suck at explaining things. What does the leader being inactive have to do with users mentoring apprentices? Regardless, it's forcing those who want to become leader/deputy to mentor, even if they're not comfortable with it. 22:45, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean senior warriors when I said leaders. >.> 22:46, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I knew what you meant, trust me. That's why I said what I did. Our current leader even said herself that she's not the best at explaining things, so does this mean she's not fit to be our leader? I don't think so. She's skilled, and fair. Having the ability to explain something should have nothing to do with it. 22:49, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think both you and Iceheart are pretty good at explaining things, but I'm starting to agree that you shouldn't have to be good at explaining things to be a deputy/leader. -- 01:23, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

I think Shellheart's right. You need to have the skills that mentors need to become a leader or deputy, for all the reasons previously listed. Yes, Iceheart said she's not the best at explaining things, but she still applied to become a mentor, did she not? It's not just explaining things, although that is a necessary part of becoming somebody with authority. It's also being active enough to be there to help somebody through their first steps as an apprentice (although not every apprentice in the mentor program is an apprentice in PCA). It's having the patience not to get annoyed at somebody who really just doesn't get what's going on, and instead being gentle and helpful. I still support this idea. 03:26 Sun Nov 27

I see the logic behind this, but theres already a good number of requirements for being a lead, and i dont really think this is nessicary. Its a good idea, but not one we need. 00:27, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

And what are those requirements? As far as I've seen, deputies are just chosen by leaders, no eletion or voting. 00:38, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

She wasn't talking about the leaders and deputies, but a lead in general. I think Iceheart's right. 00:40, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps this shouldn't be a requirement. If the deputy/leader steps down/becomes inactive, and the new/current leader knows who they want to make deputy, if they don't they could think about how good they are at explaining things, but is doesn't have to be a requirement. 05:26, Mon, Nov, 28, 2011

Should we have a vote? And Cloudy, how come you agree with Iceheart if all she said was cancelled out by the fact that she was talking about SWs? :3 03:40 Wed Nov 30

Because I don't think that you need to mentor in order to become a lead. If you're skilled enough, but don't want to deal with an apprentice of your own (ie; not enough concentration, don't have the spare time, just don't want to), why should you be denied the chance to excel? 18:33, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I still stand by my opinion. Vote? Or no? 03:12 Thu Dec 1

I reckon we should vote. We have to get the project's opinion on this. 05:08, Thu, Dec, 1, 2011

Okay Ill set upo the forum.... 21:26, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

I forgot to put vote in the title and im really tired so the wording isnt at its best, but here it is. Go vote. 21:36, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not voting on this. While I still think it's a good idea and that Wild and I have good points, I see everyone else's point as well. Honestly, you guys know I get a lot of ideas and I always feel I should propose them to the project for consideration. When I proposed this in the chat, all of the PCA members present (including Cloudskye) agreed that is was a good idea, so I posted it. I'm sorry so few agree with me. 21:41, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, was the mention of my name really necessary? Now you're making me seem like a bad person for changing my mind. 05:00, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

That wasn't the intention. I was merely explaining why I posted my idea. I put a lot of faith in your opinions, as I feel you know the project very well. That you changed your mind doesn't make you a bad person, it just meant you thought more on it and decided you didn't think it was in the best interest in the project. Let it be known, PCA: Cloudskye is a good person. That is all. 05:17, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Redoing Apprentices
Just a thought for when the blanks are finished and we start redoing the apprentice images... What does everybody think about having dibs on redoing your own previously approved images? Obviously if you didn't want to do them, you could say so, and somebody else would redo them, but if the user who worked on the previously approved image is still active and a part of PCA, they would get dibs on it. Does that make any sense? 03:35 Wed Nov 30

Sounds good, uhm, don't we kind of have a rule about this with redoing images (if you're the OA you have higher priority to redo it?) and this would kind of build on that? 03:46, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Erm... I dunno. I don't think it's set in stone or anything. It's common courtesy, yes, but I don't think it's a rule. I just wanted to ask in terms of getting it acknowledged by everybody, not by making it into a rule, though :c) 03:54 Wed Nov 30

Makes sense, since you'd have all the old files, colors, patterns, etc. Also, maybe for cats who have more than one apprentice charart (alts. MCA's, etc.), maybe they should resolve to do them all, since at most it would only be three. Thoughts? - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 03:59, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. That'd still leave plenty for everyone else, as many of the people that made the original apprentice chararts are no longer in the project. 04:06, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

How do we know who the OA is? Do we have to go through all the archives? ~Breezewhisker~ 04:11, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Images show the history of who uploaded under the same name  04:12, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

So you have to try and upload an image before it'll show it? ~Breezewhisker~ 04:16, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

No, click on the image to make it bigger, then it'll bring you to the file page and it'll show the past versions and who did that. Hope that makes sense  04:22, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

It does, for the images that are already on a page. How do you find the old apprentice chararts? /making sure this is totally clear before I break something later/ ~Breezewhisker~  04:25, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

They're listed on the tweak page at the bottom C:  04:26, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. :) ~Breezewhisker~  04:28, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Oooh I like this. I was hoping to have dibs on Mallownose's image. :) ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  04:53, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

What if we've done another rank of that cat, and another user did the apprentice/mca rank? I did Leopardstar's kit image, and I think Stoneclaw did the apprentice, Stoneclaw would do the redo of Leopardstar's (A) right? 05:02, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, this sounds good..but i dont have any apprentice chararts done, is it wrong? I think when the other poeople takes their cats we can make reservation for the others..because there can be problems with it later, just two cats? 07:05, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

It's not wrong, Leafstorm ;). Anyways, I think this is a great idea. Just for curiosity's sake, what about apprentice chararts that you've tweaked and say the original artist is not around anymore. First come, first serve on that one? 07:24, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with this. 07:35, Wed, Nov, 30, 2011

Hopefully, a lead will add me back in today, but, I agree. *yes, im back, be happy, i want a welcome back party or something.* Maple♥  pool  Mischief brewing 14:00, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

It'd be the most current OA, such as me on Sunstrike's image. And no, I don't think the person should do the apprentice AND MCA, especially if the OA wants to do the other image (such as if Sunstrike had become an MCA and, say, Cloudy did it and had wanted to do her MCA image)  19:11, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

So are you saying that only the OA gets to do the apprentice images? For example, if they created, lets say Brighthearts apprentice charart, they are the only ones that are aloud to do it? 21:17, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Well, if the OA wants to do it, it's only fair that we let them. But if the OA of the apprentice image says they don't want to do it or don't say anything, then it's pretty much free game. Make sense? =)  21:19, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ivy, I was just going to say that. You stole my edit. Grr... Anyways, it's first come, first serve unless the OA wants to work on it. Simple as that. 21:21, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

U mad? *insert trollface here* :P  21:25, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

You should also check to see who had done the apprentice image. If it's a user who has left, it's free-game, correct? But if the user is still active, ask their permission? I think I've got this down.. xD -- 21:27, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks! ^-^  21:55, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

What if an old app image's OA is gone, but it was tweaked by a user who is still in the project. Would the user who tweaked the image redo the image on the new blank? 23:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

If I understand this correctly I think so. 00:09, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Bluestar alt. kit
In the allegiances for Bluestar's Prophecy, Bluestar is desribed as a gray she-cat with blue eyes. I don't see why she wouldn't get an alt. for then if she got an alt. for the same desription as a leader. Wouldn't she? If so, can I do her? Bluestar11796 18:07, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

She already have one 18:08, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

That's dark gray, this is regular gray. Bluestar11796 18:18, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

If the already done alt is dark gray and this is just gray, go ahead, since she got one for her leader image. 19:09, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Dewstar ~ Join Request
May i please join :3 18:11, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'll add you in now. Read over the guidelines, and ask if there's something you don't understand. If you're looking to improve your skills, I suggest looking at this, as it contains a lot of good information. 18:36, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

So um how do i exactly create the cat can i take an outline for a queen or whatever? 21:37, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I dont have any of the programs so i dont think i can do it >:( sorry im very disappointed now 22:02, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Acutually you can still use this or GIMP (sorry no link) and read the tutorial for help, or ask another user. :D 22:25, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'd recommend you apply for a mentor, who will guide you through all of that :3 <span style="">02:10 Thu Dec 1

Ok i installed Gimp so can i join still :3 sorry for the wait -- 21:35, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Awesome look at the apprentice tutorials (the link was provided by Clouskye) and you'll be all set. <span style="">22:01 Fri Dec 2

SW Nominations
The other leads and i agree that it would be best if we close the SW nominations until New Years, possibly longer, but we'll cross that bridge when it comes. So everyone be aware that no senior warrior nominations will be accepted until they are reopened. The warrior nominations will go on as they have. 23:44, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Frogleap
Hey, since Frogleap is described witha striped tail, doesn't he fall under the default tabby rule? That would mean he gets brown chararts. 00:35, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing, but I'm not sure. :/ 00:36, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

I think so, since Stoneteller got an alternate for having a gray striped tail. 00:38, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Ya we've done chararts for less. Go for it. 00:38, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Just wonderin', but if a cat had just a striped tail and the rest was just a solid colour would that cat get an alt? (Random but for possible future reference) <span style="">01:18 Fri Dec 2

If they're already described as a tabby? I don't think so. A striped tail is technically a tabby qualifier. 01:21, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Unless you're Whitefang. Who's white with a tabby striped tail. xDDDD 02:31, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Since his tail is the only known part of Frogleap to be striped, just give him a striped tail. If it's revealed later that he's a tabby, it won't be a huge feat to make him into a tabby. - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 02:44, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

With Whitefang, I think they meant he just had tabby stipes on his tail, not that it was a different color... They call him pure white, that typically means at least mostly white. And there are white tabbies, so it's possible. 04:56, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Tutorial
Warriors and leads, I need you help! The tutorial needs to be finished ASAP, because, well, it looks bad half finished and isnt much help. Please work on whatever sections arent done, i dont care if theyre already reserved, people have had their chance to work on them and havent so theyre up for grabs! Please lets just get this finished. 01:44, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to say the two sections you did were magnificent! <span style="">02:18 Fri Dec 2

I asked Icestorm a few weeks ago if I could do the mottled section... She never answered. Could I do that one? 02:29, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Crap, never mind. I'll just do whatever's open. 02:30, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry Oblivion i didnt know you wanted it :( 02:34, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

It's fine ^^ I'll just do dual-coloured. 02:43, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Do you want to use the tutorial video I made for my apprentice in it? It goes over how to use gimp and making tabbies. I'm also going to make one for torties. 04:59, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Warriors and up are aloud? If so, I can do a section. 23:00, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Question
If an apprentice wants to do an apprentice charart, but they already have one for approval, can they do both? Bluestar11796 19:16, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Since the new apprentice chararts are going to go on the approval page, I think not. They aren't tweaks. In any case, only Warriors and up can take on multiple images. 19:25, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Are apprentice chararts going to be for warriors only or what? 23:22, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Everyone will be able to do them. Hence the reason they will be posted to the approval page. 23:27, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Okay thanks 23:37, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Dark tabby?
Is a dark tabby different than a brown tabby? 00:33, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Yes 01:54, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Would it be dark brown or dark gray/black? 03:05, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Dark brown 03:11, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Okay 14:45, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to join!
Can I plz join this?IloveDovepaw 01:47, December 3, 2011 (UTC)IloveDovepaw

You may. Please read the guidelines before asking a question or posting a charart, and look at the tutorials and mentor program for any additional information. Thank you for your interest in joining. 01:54, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome Dovepaw! <span style="">14:47 Sat Dec 3

May I join??
Hi, I'm Featherwillow, and I'm really interested in joining! I'm pretty good at charart already, and I would post a pic (if I knew how to upload one). I am fairly decent at GIMP and also occasionally use Sumopaint but I don't think that would be needed. However, I am kind of new, and pretty much need a mentor to tell me how to do stuff on PCA. But once I figure out how to o things, I'd absolutely love to become a warrior of PCA. Anyway, can I join? :) 20:35, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Is this how you upload one? http://i41.tinypic.com/1znljlv.png That is Featherwillow (aka me). 20:38, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Sure thing. Please read the guidelines before posting a charart, and look at the tutorials and mentor program if you want someone to help you along. I'll add you in now. Also, no, that's not how you upload one. 20:40, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome Featherwillow! <span style="">21:10 Sat Dec 3

Thanks Sweetflower! Also I found out how to upload one after I read the guidelines and such. I'm looking forward to this! Yay! 23:00, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Some Thoughts
So we were thinking that these should be part of the guidelines: So ya thats new. 23:23, December 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * If you leave/are removed from the project, you come back as a rank lower, regardless of what rank you are (Except apprentices, they have now where to go down.)
 * You now only have to be a member of the project for a month to be eligable for warrior nominaiton

And leaders/deputies who leave become SWs when they return? Or warriors? <span style="">23:30 Sat Dec 3

Wait, i re-joined a week ago....does that mean i have to be a apprentice again? Maple♥ pool  Mischief brewing 23:35, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the possible guideline additions. It makes sense. <span style="">23:38 Sat Dec 3

It's just an idea, Maple, but if we all agree upon it, then you might. 00:01, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm...Very well, if i have to, i won't complain(much.) Maple♥  pool  Mischief brewing 04:27, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I just have to say that it doesn't really matter what rank you are. The only difference from apprentices from the rest is that they can't tweak chararts and that's not a huge deal if you ask me. - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 04:46, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Demotion Discussion
Look here to discuss the new idea of demotion. <span style="">23:31 Sat Dec 3

Dewstar Mentor request December 3rd 2011
Hi can someone Mentor me sorry if i am doing this on the wrong page but i really need one. i need to know everything that the person can teach me -- 02:45, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Go to the Warriors Wiki:Charart/Mentor Program page to request a mentor. 23:59, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

And p.s You forgot to sign :3 <span style="">00:02 Sun Dec 4

And Twilightheart it won't let me post except for on the talk page of that Mentor thing so i posted it here because it would actually be noticed :/ -- 02:45, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I can post if for you, if you'd like. :3 02:49, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for the Elimination of Warrior Nominations
Hi guys. I bet you're sick of me sticking my nose in, but here I go. I'd like to propose that you completely eliminate the nomination process to become a warrior. That's right. Completely eliminate it. I propose the following: New artists join as apprentices and, on completion of their first independent project (a piece of character art where none of the actual artwork is handled by any other artists) they are immediately passed through and accepted as full warriors as the project. I feel that this would be a valuable change to the project for the following reasons:


 * 1) Devaluing the title "PCA Warrior", thus decreasing desirability and cutting down on the number of low-grade project applicants.
 * 2) Re-empowering artists and eliminating the kowtowing need to bend and accommodate every little change that is requested, regardless of the actual value that change brings to the price of art. If it's posted, the artist should have it to a state where they're ready to defend it and only take truly good suggestions that actually bring more to the work (not this "change the ear pink by making it half a degree cooler" rot that seems so prevalent nowadays).
 * 3) Elimination of an exclusionary process. It should not be difficult to become a member of this project if you're a competent artist.
 * 4) Elimination of work for project staff.
 * 5) Elimination of edits that bring no value to the wiki (and frankly, Warrior Nominations for PCA bring nothing to the wiki but a feeling of elitism).
 * 6) Return "Warrior" level membership to being the bulk of the project, as it should. Warrior should be the typical rank. Not unproven apprentices.
 * 7) An increase in project turnaround and project quality as the need to "get a comment in on this piece so that I get more exposure and do better in my nomination" goes away.

There it is. Laid out and pretty plain. Do with it as you will.

02:43, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

...Well....i dont say i agree....i mean....some Apprentices need the experenice, and thats we vote for them to be warriors....'cause we think that they deserve the rank. Getting ONE charart approved, doesnt mean you should be a warrior.... But, thats just me. Maple♥ pool  Mischief brewing 02:48, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * But, the point of thise project isn't training artists. If they can make art that gets accepted on their own, why should they have to be voted for? Why shouldn't they be made a proper part of the project? What more is there to earn if you do a decent bit of art? One of the Charart problems, one of the reasons you get so many incompetent apprentices who are not capable artists already is the artifical desiability of membership as a warrior in this project. I say devalue the begeepers out of the title "PCA Warrior" and eliminate the glory for getting it. Save the glory for becoming a Senior Warrior, a truely accomplished and well proven member of the project. 02:51, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Well how do you know if they have enough experience and is ''acitve? ''That's the most important part. It should be approved by like, the leader just not a vote maybe... 02:56, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Even though it caused my warrior nomination be declined, I think that there should still be somewhat of a time minimum. Apprentices should prove they can stick around. ~Breezewhisker~ 03:00, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * What does time have to do with anything? You have idle-member removal processes for a reason. Put your time requirement on Senior Warrior, where it belongs. There should only be one hoop to join this project as a full (warrior) member: Prove you can contribute acceptable artowrk. 03:10, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * This is true. I forgot about the idle-member part. I suppose by that the time an apprentice has gotten a charart approved, they've already been here a good portion of that two-week time span before removal. ~Breezewhisker~  03:27, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to mull this over in my head. 03:01, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Understandable. On nominations, people can differ between thoughts. Some people might propose valued reasons why some user could not become a warrior, but the majority votes for it as a go. The leads could all gather on our IRC meetings and discuss who might be nominated for a warrior anytime soon. And Sandstorm, we know who has good experience and is active because we watch them edit, and we know if their edits are meaningful. 03:03, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

{C Huh, that looks like what you proposed when we decided to eliminate the kit rank. I agreed with it then, I agree with it now. Less complicated than making a system to demote people, and it'll allow us to be more efficient in making chararts. Honestly, we have chararts on the approval page that have been there a month because the artist can't seem to get the right tone of ear-pink or doesn't know how to properly blur shading, and we have new apprentices that know nothing of the project policies posting chararts multiple times for characters that don't even have descriptions in the books.

I'm tired of this. The mentoring program is helping, but either we need to go with Kit's idea or make it so that problem apprentices can be made to take on a mentor. I'm already doing something similar to what Kit's suggesting with my apprentice: I assign her chararts to make through my email and critique her from there. She's really made a lot of progress. Maybe if instead of one charart apprentices will have to make multiple chararts of different pelt types, maybe one that has altered line art?

And Breeze, we used to have the kit system. Kits had to stick around for a month and do nothing but comment, and that was also counter-intuitive. It discouraged people from applying, which made work go slower. We need just as many users, but we need a way to make sure our users know what to do and how to make quality chararts. With the kit system, kits could not really practice chararts, only watch. 03:12, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * Being honest, I hate the mentoring system. This project isn't for training artists. If you're not competent, you shouldn't qualify for entry and should go practice on your own time. (I think it would be a good use for the dA page, frankly.) As for what they have to show they can do... Why do they have to be tallented at all fur types? Shouldn't a user whose never done a tabby either be ready to work extra hard before they post it for the crit (art that's posted should, frankly, be 99% done, or better. The artist should think it's perfect) or simply not claim a peice of art outside their skillset? We don't limit contributers on articles simply becuase they're not stellar writers. Why shouldn't a person who can only do basic color and white markings not be eligible simply because they don't have a broad-range skillset? They can pursue other practice on their own time, but contribute as a full member of the project while they do that. 03:18, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I know I'm not active in the project anymore (understatement) but I support this. It is fun to name the ranks after the Clan hierarchy, but I think we sometimes get carried away with that. I wasn't here to see this process get implemented, but in every other project during my time here, a warrior simply meant a user who knew how the project worked and made some level of contribution. The only rank that required a greater commitment and had to be nominated for was Senior Warrior. There's really no need to try and buff up the Warrior rank to require discussion or nomination, I think all it does is put new members down and make the Warriors feel more self-important. If there's any sort of graduation from apprentice to warrior, it should be a fair, clear-cut requirement as Kitsu suggested, such as one approved charart. (I think back in the day when I was in the project it was completing three, but I think that's a taller order now that there's far fewer cats left undone). Anyways, that's the opinion of an ornery, old-fashioned user like myself. Take it how you will. 03:23, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I suppose you're right, Kit. I do agree with your idea, and with your proposal of the elder system (I actually brought up the idea of instating an elder system while we discussed making a demotion system).


 * Honestly, the mentor system was brought up as a small patch for this situation we're in, where many apprentices don't seem to be making progress. We can't kick them out of the project, we thought trying to teach them would be the best solution. It's worked a little (as I said, my apprentice has made good progress), but at the same time we can't force apprentices to get a mentor. Being fair is being counter-intuitive in this situation, but there was little else we could do. 03:29, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * A simple workaround would be to put a timer on how long you can be an apprentice without getting art approved. Even if that means making a special approvals board for apprentices only (which would make tracking apprentices qualifying for warrior easier anyways) so they don't have to get stuck in waiting for a regular approvals opening. Frankly, if apprentices can't qualify in a reasonable amount of time, they should have to go and train on their own. Right now PCA has a glory that it shouldn't, and a desirability that it shouldn't. It'll always be the only project with a barrier to entry (digital art skill), but we should keep the entry bar as low as possible, to avoid excluding members and fostering the "ZOMG! MUST HAVE RANK!!" that exists with this project. Eliminating the exclusivity will help the project run smoother, simply by decreasing the "shininess" of membership. Frankly, the project can duff apprentices out. Anyone (even non-members) can contribute art. Only reasonably competent artists should be joining. We shouldn't have to train artists. 03:47, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I sort of agree. I mean, there's so many limitations and stuff, and some apprenices join for the heck of it, not knowing how to do anything but still being accepted. Also, I think it's a good idea, but changing everything would take some time. Now, I just joined, so don't think I'm trying to be all "leadery", or anything, but I agree.
 * I also think there should be some sort of qualification type thing instead of "Okay you're in" with no requirements. They might have to post an example of their work, but it will be judged on a lower level then, say, "super good." But it will have to be at least aquedate, at least be able to start from somewhere, I wouldn't really accept someone with a lineart with brown scribbles all over it, blue scribbles for eyes and rough triangles for earpinks. That's just my opinion though. :3 04:39, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * As mush as I may not have to say about this idea, I do support it. I feel it may give some apprentices and maybe even myself what they need, because if they are a good contributer and do a good job at what they should be doing, they shouldn't have to wait until two months or something like that goes by to be...prasied would you say? -- with a promotion. As little as I had to say, as a member of the project and an apprentice myself, I thought i'd throw it out there. . 05:14, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't agree at all, honestly. There are some apprentices in PCA, who don't even try. If those users become warriors, I can become a senior warrior, but those ranks are earned by trying and being devoted to PCA. 05:30, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I think it should go back to the way it was before we had nominations. If an apprentice had 3-4 images approved, and proved they were able to make solid critiques on images, they were promoted to warrior by a lead. No nomination, no ceremony (idk), or whatever. Sort of a meet-in-the-middle thing if you were. 05:40, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Okay I'll comment on this later when I have time, but for now this is just clogging the talk page and needs to be a forum, so no more commenting here, go here and comment. <span style="">06:12 Sun Dec 4

Tweaking Timelimit
A topic that came up during the leads' chat, but I wanna get everyone else's opinion on it. Since we have a limit for chararts on the main page, I see no reason why not to have a limit for chararts being tweaked and redone on the tweak page, so I think this is accurate. This is what I propose, it'll help things run smoother. And, when you take a charart to tweak/redo, just ask yourself first, "Can I get this done in an efficient amount of time?". It shouldn't take a month for a seasoned warrior to redo a charart. Thoughts for improvement?
 * 1) Tweaking - you have one week to tweak a charart, but honestly, a tweak should only take about 3 days. It doesn't take a week to tear an ear.
 * 2) Redone chararts - I propose two weeks. It isn't that hard to get it done. A user usually wouldn't have to think of an entirely new design either. Usually, redone chararts only take between 5-10 days.