Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

SW Nominations
'kay guys, I'm here with another suggestion. As you all know, Twi's currently got a SW nomination up, and it ends March 8th. I'm in no way, shape or form trying to deny future leads of their spots, but, I'd like to propose the SW nominations be closed after Twi's nomination ends. I mean, we have fifteen, possibly sixteen senior warriors, and an excellent leader and deputy that lead us well. Do we really need anymore then we already have? I'm not saying that no one else is worthy of a lead spot, but, that we have more then enough right now to keep the project running and stable.

So, comments? I propose closing the SW nominations until...hmm...maybe April? May, perhaps, depending on what happens with the current leads we have. 05:28, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

April's only like a month away. I'm thinking June maybe because by the summer people might have more time to work. I don't know. 05:39 Tue Feb 28 05:39, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

June would be good too. With most of the members here still in high school (middle school for some of the younger ones), it's a lot harder for them to get on, due to school work and all the fun stuff you can group together with being a teenager. 05:49, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

June sounds good. I do agree we have plenty senior warriors, even though it's a bit unfair to those who really deserve it. 05:59, 28, 02, 2012

I agree. I also think that we should improve upon the grounds that we nominate our SWs for. Though I cannot deny that any of our SWs haven't earned their spot, I think that the SW rank is starting to been seen as an "inner PCA circle" which seems all high and mighty. I read somewhere that a SW rank is given to a user who needs to head a certain aspect of a project like Cloudy and the Mentoring Program.

Though this might sound kinda dumb, but, in the future, I think we should put a limit on the number of SW's so when a SW steps down or leaves the project, their spot can be filled by an appropriate runner-up. And right now, SW rank just feels like a step up from a warrior rank by saying "oh, you did really well at X, Y, or Z". I dunno, this idea's just been bothering me for a bit lately. Thoughts? 22:09, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea! Kinda like how there's only a certain amount of admin and rollbacker spots and such, so things don't get too out of hand. It think that'd be great! 8D 23:50, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah! I think that's a good idea. What do you think the limit would be around? Just curious, though it might be too early to ask. :3 03:49, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea too. I think the limit could be 18 sm's. 07:32, 29, 02, 2012

18? DJ, I think we're good with the ones we have now. I don't think we need more. *if I'm understanding you correctly...* 07:33, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking about making the limit 10. How we get it down to that level is yet to be seen, but we can work that out later. Kitsu said that SW's should represent talented artists with a leader's trust that can represent a strong leadership in the project. Now, before accusations begin to fly, let me say that I trust EVERYONE in PCA. Everyone works hard and is worthy of trust. But 15 SWs and growing? That just seems a bit extreme to me. Though every SW does their jobs from time to time, I've only seen a good handful of members archive and all on a regular basis (I've been a bit inactive in this department too.... Gomenasai ) But yes, after Twi's nomination closes, I think SW nominations should close while we sort this aspect of the project out. Thoughts? 15:18, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Accusations? Scarlet, what on Earth are you talking about? There's no reason to be paranoid and distrust the members of this project... Do you really feel that way about us? I trust every member of this project and I don't think that taking away the rights of the recently elected senior warriors would help at all. Having these extras means that even when some of us go inactive, the project continues as smoothly as ever. Yeah, close it after Twi's election, but I don't think that lowering the number of senior warriors will be anything but counter-intuitive. 15:23, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I'm just going to say a few things on this subject... First off... A hard, numerical limit isn't the way to go. Your project is big. and your number of senior warriors must reflect that. Your target should be between a quarter and a third of the project members (IE: 1 Senior Warriors for every 3 apprentice/warrior project members). This puts you guys about where you should be... Senior Warriors, however, should not have the project leader's trust alone. They need the project's trust, and the leader should be able to trust the judgement of the project when they create a Senior (IE: If the project votes them in, what reason does the project leader have not to trust the project population?). Frankly, Scarlet, don't forget that you're a figurehead with a few jobs. Like the Queen of England. You don't make the laws, you just represent something for the project and provide certain bits of guidance for it. But in the end, you're still just a member of the project. 17:42, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, put it like this maybe. (Example: Each member of the project has a right to make art and be free to participate in discussions, and critique on art. Not every member of PCA has the right to be a leader and lead the project.) We should clarify these rights and find the differences between all the different project ranks. So far, from what I've seen, these are the current rights for Warrior+:

Warrior
 * Critique on art
 * Participate in discussions
 * Participate in project votes
 * Create Original Artwork For Approval
 * Create Tweak and Redo's For Approval
 * If a charart is Withdrawn, they may take over
 * Withdraw images
 * Take part in project meetings
 * Work to become a senior warrior by earning the projects respect and trust, and by fitting into the requirements

Lead


 * Critique on art
 * Participate in discussions
 * Participate in project votes
 * Create Original Artwork For Approval
 * Create Tweak and Redo's For Approval
 * If a charart is Withdrawn, they may take over
 * Withdraw images
 * Archive old discussions
 * Set up project votes
 * Approve and Decline artwork
 * Take part in lead meetings
 * Take part in project meetings
 * Set up project/lead meetings
 * Work to become the deputy/leader once the deputy/leader succeeds the leader or steps down/becomes inactive, by earning the leaders respect and trust
 * Be a leader and rolemodel to other members of the project

As you can see, there is a huge jump from Warrior to Senior Warrior, even though it's just one rank move up. There should be a difference between the Senior Warriors, Deputy and Leader, right now, they basically all do the same thing. If anything, I think we need another rank, for the (no offence) less experienced Sw's. Their rights could be the same as the Warriors, except their rank posistion could be on the main page, so new users could come to them if they have questions, and they can take part in lead meetings and make descisions for the project, that way they don't seem all mighty with so much power. There are SW's that really deserve their posistion, and have the experience needed, but this is just my 2 cents. 05:50, 02, 03, 2012

Yes, there should be a noticeable difference between SW/Deputy/Leader, but I don't think we need another rank. We have enough. 18:49, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Given that Lead and project meetings shouldn't be happening (all important discussions should use either the forum or this talk page), you can scratch those right off the list. Everyone should be a Leader and Role-modle for the project (the project should be running things, not the "leads"), so there's another one that belongs on both parts. Given that all rules changes/proposals should be discussed and voted on by all, they don't have to be limited to the "leads" group. That would be stupid and keep a group of perfectly good minds out of the process. That leaves... Gosh... Just "Approve art", "Archive discussions" and "Setup Votes". Looks to me like Senior Warriors are mostly just members who've been given administrative duties for the project. I don't see why there needs to be Senior-Senior Warriors and Senior Warriors to handle that. You all seem to have an overinflated idea of the importance of Senior Warriors. 18:55, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Kit on this. SWs are members of the project with a lot of experience with chararts and critique, so they are given the rights to decline/approve/CBA images due to their experience. I mean, they're not to have the power to control the project, but just some administrative duties, as Kit said.

Also, for these "lead meetings," SWs invite other SWs to go on the PCA IRC and discuss. It shouldn't be like that. Every user has the right to participate in these discussions, so then that would mean that there shouldn't be lead meetings, but project discussions on a forum or so. 19:08, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I know I'm against the idea of any meetings at all. All new ideas should be discussed on the talk page or on a forum, where it can be looked back on at anytime. I'm not sure what to do about the number of SW's though, I mean, we do have a lot, but not one of them don't deserve it. 00:27, 03, 03, 2012

I did the math and we should have 18-24 SW, we have 14-16. 22:57, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

No, no and no again. We do not need that many. I think we're functioning just fine with the ones we have now. 22:58, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

I think we're fine where we are now (plus Twi) too, I'm just giving the numbers, but I also believe you can't put a limit on well-respected, contributing users, it would be like putting a limit on users that could join. 02:25, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yes we have more than enough now. I understand we need a percentage, not a number of SW, but I think the percentage should be to active users. Half the users in this project aren't active really so we don't actually need this many SWs. You know we've got too many when half of them don't have anything to do cause someone else has already gotten to it everytime they look. And Wildfire, there's a difference between being well-respected and contributive and being a SW. A warrior can be both very easily and not have to be a SW if we already have enough. A lot of our members have amazing skills and are active, but that doesn't mean they should all be SWs. I think we're fine with what we have now, and closing nominations again would definitely be a good idea. 15:47, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Partial-description Alts
Alright, I need to get this off my chest because I've been steaming over it long enough.

That would be all of the alts that have been made simply because the Erins don't list off every attribute of a cat every time they appear. Like Mousewhisker and Hazeltail for instance: given alts because they were mentioned with fluffy gray fur... they both do have fluffy gray fur. Not mentioning the white wasn't grounds for alts to be made. Or Sol's brown-and-black rogue alt. He is mottled brown and black, not mentioning the white and orange once doesn't mean that his white and orange fur vanished, really.

Look at it this way: do we give Spottedleaf alts every single time she shows up and the Erins don't spend half a page describing her? No. Why does it make sense to make alts every time one attribute isn't mentioned? Unless the Erins, for examply, specifically mention Barley as a solid black cat, he shouldn't get a black alt because he does have black fur and only mentioning said black fur doesn't mean he loses the white.

I think that the alts made for partial descriptions should be removed, no offense to those that made them, and that alts shouldn't be accepted for this reason in the future. 03:25, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Haha, once again you use your power of persuasion to put forth an idea I originally proposed :P Good luck with this (obviously I agree) 03:26, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

(It's always a good idea to mention Spottedleaf, haha) 03:27, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I agree too. It makes little sense to have alts with partial descriptions. At the mention of Spottedleaf, the Erins do not write, "the orange and brown, tortishell-and-white, dappled she-cat with a white chest and claws..." 02:23, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

While I agree about this, I think it's really unfair that people's images get removed after working on them. No one objected against them when they were up for approval. I think we should make a rule against partial description now, but leave the current ones on the pages so it's fair. 02:49 Wed Mar 14

Actually, I did object, and so did Ivy. And if we implement this it needs to be retroactive and the other chararts need to be removed. It wouldn't make sense to have them for some and not all. And chararts get removed all the time for various reasons (Brick, Brownpaw, etc). This is no different. Removing them is the only fair thing to do, leaving them would make no sense. 03:41, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm mainly thinking of the fairness towards the entire project rather than how fair it will be to a few individuals. I see it this way: if we keep those chararts, it would be unfair to decline anyone else's charart alts based on partial descriptions. Less people get their time wasted or feelings hurt this way. 04:05, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I've really been on the fence about it, but I'll put what I think for now, without deciding anything for sure. I think that it really all depends on the situations. Like for instance, Ivypool is almost always, without fail, mentioned as a silver and white tabby. Almost always, very consistently. So when she's described as say silver, or even a silver tabby, I think she should definitely get an alt, cause it's not her normal description, and it's wrong. However, say Leafpool was described without her white chest and paws, or without her tabby stripes. Now, she's not always described with those, quite often they're left out, so that wouldn't require an alt. I personally think we should just figure it out depending on the specific situations, cause in my eyes, it all really depends. 05:04, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

No offense, but that doesn't make much sense, Paleh. All cats in the series are very often described using partial descriptions, including Ivypool. Ivy just hasn't been around as long as most of them. She is silver and she is a silver tabby, they can't be expected to always list off every one of her attributes, as I said. Those alts should go with the rest. Unless she is specifically shown or described as a solid silver cat or just a silver tabby (not saying that she has silver taby fur or a silver tabby pelt, because she does have those things), she shouldn't get alts.

What qualifies for an alt, to me, is when a cat's description is changed (like when a cat goes from a tabby to a tortie like Mapleshade did), when their color changes at least more than two shades or changes color completely, or when a cat is displayed visually with an attribute they've never been mentioned with before (like white markings that come out of nowhere, though we could have a seperate discussion about pale chests).

The Erins just not mentioning a certain aspect of a cat every time a cat pops up is no reason to make an alt. 06:25, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Read this and tell me if any author in their right mind would write like this:

''Ivypool stalked quietly through the Dark forest, her silver tabby and white fur somehow managing to blend into the shadows, her white paws with thorn-sharp claws landing silently on the bare ground, her white face showing no emotion except a tiny flicker of fear that fluttered in her dark blue eyes. Her stripe tabby tail twitched nervously, but she extinguished any signs of feeling and froze the moment she sensed movement nearby. Suddenly, from the shadows emerged Tigerstar, the massive, tall, broad shouldered, dark-brown tabby that stalked her dreams... or her nightmares. His hefty paws, sporting unusually long front claws, only hid an equal power held in his sharp teeth. His long, thick tail twitched in interest as he looked Ivypool over, his scarred, pale muzzle (that matched his underbelly) lifted as he examined her, pale amber eyes boring into her. His ears twitched, one split in a deep V that only matched the rest of his scarred pelt. His pale amber eyes narrowed to slits and he bared his sharp teeth in a snarl. "Traitor!" The cry rang out through the trees as the massive, tall, broad shouldered,dark brown tabby tom with unusually long front claws, hefty paws, sharp teeth, long thick tail, muscular shoulders, a pale muzzle and underbelly, and pale amber eyes jumped on Ivypool, tearing into her silver and white tabby pelt and (I'm getting tired of writing) killing her dead.''

By your standards, had the Erins not included everything I just did in a scene like that, it'd be grounds to make an alt, which makes no sense. 06:44, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Meh, no offence taken, I'm horrible at explaining things. But I don't think you really got my point... In some characters, the main description is almost always stated. It seems off that they do it, but the erins do usually include the whole tabby-and-white things and stuff like that. Just like they almost always include whether a cat's a tabby. And we're not saying make alts for minor things left off, like pale bellies or white paws, we're saying make them for something major, like part of the main description. Main description being the absolute minimum you need to make an accurate chararts. You could have Hollyleaf short furred for example, because that's not part of her main description, and still be fairly accurate. It'd look like the character basically. And for times when those traits are left off, like when Mousewhisker and Hazeltail are described as just plain gray, I think it matters. And on a side note, cats are almost never stated to be completely solid. There's just no way to tell in the way the Erins right. Am I making any sense yet? I'm trying my best but I don't think I'm quite getting my point across. 08:57, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should make it so none of these things have alts, just that it depends how different the alt would be from the main charart. Like I said, we don't make alts for the erins failing to mention white paws, or even tabby stripes. However, as I was saying about the main description thing, if part of the main description's left off, it makes a fairly big difference usually. We do the same thing color-wise. If a color's too close to the original, it doesn't get an alt. So how about we just make it so there has to be a substantial difference to get an alt, rather than just saying "These things do, these things don't"? 09:00, March 14, 2012 (UTC).

I understood you perfectly the first time, and I'll reiterate my point so I'm clearer. Almost all cats that make more than one appearance are described with partial descriptions once in a while. Based on that simple fact, Ivypool should not be an acception, and obviously she is isn't consistantly given a full description every time she pops up if we've cited three instances in which she has not. I know for certain there are more instance than the three we have listed, too. And, as I said, she's only been around for a fifth of the series. Of course she's had less chances to get examples of just having her silver fur mentioned or just the fact that she has tabby fur or something like that. But yeah, making a list to add to the guidelines might be helpful. Here would be my choices:

What qualifies for an alt: What does not qualify for an alt: Seem good? 13:43, March 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Pelt type change (solid to tabby, tabby to tortie, etc)
 * Pelt color change of more than one shade (pale grey to dark grey, not grey to pale grey or dark grey)
 * Pelt color change to an entirely different color (brown to ginger, black to light grey, not silver to light grey or anything like that)
 * Addition of pale markings or stripes in book images (however, should a cat be constantly depicted this way, a pale chest/muzzle/paws may be added to a character's description after discussion as long as those things do not change any part of the existing description)
 * Gender change
 * Eye color change
 * Shifting pelt color by a single shade (pale grey to grey, ginger to dark ginger)
 * Being given a partial description (such as Firestar not being mentioned with a pale belly, Graystripe being mentioned without his stripe, or Mousewhisker being mentioned with only grey fur) unless a character is specifically mentioned as not having an attribute they are cited to have (for example: "Mousewhisker emerged from the den, the solid grey cat stretching in the light", not "Mousewhisker sat with his sister, Hazletail, their grey fur blending together")
 * Being depicted without stripes in the comic (for ginger cats that are not cited in the books as tabbies)

I understood the first time too, but like I said, I think it should be just differences from the main description that get alts, not everything in the description. I still don't agree and my opinion hasn't changed, but if others agree with you I'll concede. I think if there's a big enough change, regardless of it being something not being mentioned, it should get an alt. 14:09, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I can respect that. Alright, everyone else. Please comment with your thoughts on this matter. The more input the better (mayhaps this should be moved to a forum). 20:32, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Good grounds Shelly. I agree, we shouldn't make alts on partical descriptions. Also, if Spottedleaf was mentioned to be a tortie with white and black, but instead of the orange/brown, it was gray or something... (not realistic I know), would that qualify for an alt, because some stays the same and some changes. 06:10, 15, 03, 2012

Fixing the Apprentice Tutorials
Paleh and I were discussing about fixing some things in the apprentice tutorials. I know we are against private meeting but we only came up with some ideas now I'm asking the project for their imput. First of all, we should have separarte sections for programs since not everyone uses Pixlr. Second, we should make the tutorial images one file and used as archives instead of multiple images or one big image. This would make it way easier to edit the pictures. Paleh aslo came up with this depth picture for the blanks. It would act as something like this but with a blank instead of a sphere since not everyone goes by the shading placement suggestions. Another thing would be to remove the triangle tabby section because, at this point, it's pretty obsolete and misleading. I think that's everything we thought of. Suggestions? 00:18 Tue Mar 13

Looks good to me. Paleh already told me I can make a section on realistic tabby styles. 00:23, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm confused about the image idea themselves and the wireframe. What's the point of each? (no I'm not being a toad, I'm legitimately confused) 02:09, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm...I would agree. Paleh told me this a while ago, and it would work, as right now, we only have Gimp tutorials, and maybe just a few others. 02:11, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Like when you post an archived image. Like the one on your talk, it's part of the same file. Sorr I didn't explain that well XD. 02:12 Tue Mar 13

But why do we need archived versions of the images on that page? We'll just rewrite them with new stuff and we don't need to use the old. If there's something I'm totally missing I'm sorry 02:15, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

It just makes it so that there's not a ton of files. 02:16 Tue Mar 13

Wait. Do you mean one master file? 02:18, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah pretty much. One master file for each tutorial, like one master for the classic tabbies for instance, and just use the archives. That way we can still edit the text, which we can't do when it's one big image, and it won't take up space, which it's doing with a couple of the tuts now that have multiple images. Plus not having all the different fonts that come in programs like gimp and stuff I think will make it look a bit cleaner and more orderly. 02:44, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Oh and I don't think Mounty linked this yet, but I made a draft of basically what I'm hoping it to look like. Here. Just the basic idea, it can still be worked around. I'll work on an example for the whole archive image thing. 02:52, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yes! Finally, I love this idea, I've wanted to fix the tutorial since the idea of a single tutorial. 15:37, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Seems good to me, and it would be great to get into depth and make it easier for other users to understand. 23:03, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Works for me, but question. Should we have a specific tutorial for photoshop as well? It's such a rare program, it might not be worth the effort. 02:06, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Scarlet, I use photoshop, and I was SO lost when I was looking at the tuorials. It's rare but it can't hurt to add it. c: 02:51 Wed Mar 14

If somebody's willing to do it, then yes of course. I know of at least 4 SMs people who use it so I think we'd be fine. It gets confusing when there's no tutorials in your program, and I think PS is common enough to add. 03:30, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful to have a photoshop tutorial. I use PS too, and though not too many use it, it'a pretty confusing program at first, and I'd like to help out myself with it, too. 21:48, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yes! That is a great start Paleh, it'd take some work, but that won't stop us. Photoshop is used enough to be put in the tutorials. 05:50, 15, 03, 2012

I definitely think Photoshop should be put in the tutorial. It's a really tricky and intimidating program until you figure it out. Breeze whisker  02:57, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

An Alt Image for Berrynose?
Well, I was looking for a charart to do and I saw that in Berrynose's trivia section it says: "When Molekit protests that he doesn't want to be an apprentice, Berrynose is said to have lashed his tail, even though he only has a stump." Does this mean he would get an image with a full tail? ϚίĿʋεʀϝƪσώȅƦ ♥  Live  like  there's no  tomorrow! ♥  01:03, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

No, I don't think he would get an image for that. I think it's already in his trivia, although I may have to go check. 07:37, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

No, he wouldn't get one... At least I'm pretty sure. Yeah, it's in his trivia, but not everything in the trivia section needs an alt. If anything, it's a typo on the Erins part, who may have forgotten about his stubby tail. 07:41, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

But he got an alt for when his tail got stubby, and the alts are for mistaks usually, so..... I would think he would get one, but it seems so minor. But then, his kit alt is minor too. I'm not sure. 12:39, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Losing a tail wasn't minor. Being mentioned with a tail was. It's entirely possible that his tail's just long enough to be tread on and lashed a bit and we just drew it too short, you know. 13:06, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

True. But still, his tail is mentioned as being nothing more then a stub stump, and last I checked, stubs stumps can't do some of the things he's been mentioned doing. As an apprentice, his "long creamy tail" is said to have rippled the water. And he's said to have used it to put his kits closer to him. It may be minor, but the alt would still be the same as having an alt for a stubby tail and long tail as a kit really. It may not be for the same reasons, but it'd be the same differences with the alts.

Bumblestripe and Leafstar
I was just wondering if Bumblestripe whould get an alt. for having a pelt like his father's. Or Leafstar would get a loner charart because she never bothered the clan(s). 14:31, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'd think that all of the cats from SkyClan originally would get loners, but they were all called rogues in the book so that's what we went with. And "pelt" can refer to the length of the fur or the consistency, not necessarily the color. 14:38, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Okay just making sure. 16:15, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

It's all good. You made good points. It's just that we can't draw conclusions from an ambiguous word like "pelt". 16:29, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with Bumblestripe getting an alt, as yeah, what Shelly said, pelt refers to length or thickness, ect. Leafstar, she lived with a large group of cats, but was loner-like. I believe that she gets a loner image, including all of the SkyClan cats. 16:53, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't Bumblestripe redone to be longhaired? Or am I just going crazy? 17:14, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Bumblestripe is longhaired. I disagree too with him getting an alt for having a pelt like his father, since he already has one, in a way. As for Leafstar, she was already classified as a rogue, so it'd be either she gets a rogue or a loner image. 01:52, 17, 03, 2012

He was tweaked to be long haired, yes. Sky Exterminate! 01:51, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Mousewhisker and Golden Tabbies
I was just wandering through the wiki character pages, looking for needed chararts, and I noticed there wasn't a cite or anything in the trivia for Mousewhisker's alternate, grey apprentice. I don't know where he was described as an apprentice like that so I cannot cite it myself.

Also, why does Lionblaze have an alternate for being described as orange, which is basically ginger? I thought golden tabbies were a type of ginger coat? If you Google golden tabby and then ginger, the golden is pretty much a pale ginger. That could very well be where the "orange" comes from, so I don't think it needs an alt. I also would say the same thing for Firestar with his golden tabby alternate. Unless he was specifically described as "dark ginger," (which he may be but I can't find it in his gigantic description) he could very well have a paler ginger coat. After all, book covers and COTC pictures aren't always the most accurate depictions. Breeze whisker  17:05, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I may not be able to explain this right, but I'll give it a go. It would almost be like saying cream and dark ginger are the same thing (I think cream is a variant of ginger but I'm not sure). Golden and dark ginger are two different pelt colors. Cats have gotten alternates for being described a shade darker or lighter. And yes, Firestar has been said to have a flmae colored-pelt, which is basically dark ginger. 17:13, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I brought Firestar up for the flame reason. If you look at a fire, it is a multitude of colors, and the insides can even be golden or white. I don't think "flame-colored" qualifies as dark ginger. And he wasn't described as a golden tabby anyway, just golden if I remember correctly. It could've been the lighting. I don't think it needs a whole alt. (And yes, cream is a variant of ginger. It is a very pale shade.) I just think that they are given an alt for something that could possibly be in their pelt already with the given description. Breeze whisker  17:26, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

There used to be no alts for ginger cats if they were described as orange or tawny, since I think it was Mossy or Night Shine who said that an alt should only be made so someone could truly appreciate the difference. I can't remember when we decided to make alts for orange and pale ginger and etc. But it doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me, since, as Breeze has already pointed out, there's not real difference. Thoughts? 23:15, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

There's no real such thing as a golden cat, just a light, yellowish ginger cat. Lionblaze shouldn't have a ginger alt because gold is a shade of ginger, same goes for Firestar having a golden alt. Now, if Russetfur was described as gold, that's a different story because the shades are completely different. That would qualify for an alt. Ginger has a wide range of shades and flamed colored doesn't specify a shade. 23:34 Mon Mar 19

Removing Rogue images
Stone and I have begun removing the rogue images from the pages since we did this with the apprentices. I know some people were confused when we didn't remove the loners, so we are doing it ahead of time this time to avoid confusion. 06:09 Sat Mar 17

May I Join?
May I join PCA? Ducky Shamrocks Falling From The Sky!!!  13:54, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Great! I'll add you in now as a Kit. Please feel free to look at the guidlines before you try anything, and you can look at the apprentice tutorials or the mentor program if you need any help. :) 15:25, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Ducky Shamrocks Falling From The Sky!!!  15:40, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

* Join request of epic awesomeness* PopSizzlez 16:12, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'll add you in now. Please look at the guidlines. Check out the apprentice tutorials or the mentor program if you want any extra help. Welcome to PCA! 16:16 Sat Mar 17

Also, PopZizzles, next time, please add a serperate heading for a join request. 22:24, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Au Revoir
Hi all! Due to new responsibilities, more commitments outside of life, all that fun such and such, I'm going to take a break from PCA. I don't have the energy to commit myself to a charart anyways as proved by my latest contributions (of which are none). However, thanks all for giving me an enjoyable experience to remember. =3 19:53, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Nuuu Alaska DDX You are amazing! I'll miss you so much *cries* 19:55 Sat Mar 17

Ahem. Atelda. There is a problem here. y u leave us? 19:56, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

D'awww! We'll miss you and your skills, 'teldy! Good luck! 19:57, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Dx When you mean break, I hope you mean you will come back tomorrow... We'll miss you!! 21:10, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

'Teldy...You are an amazing user, and PCA won't be the same without you...D'aww...I hope you return soon! 21:44, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

By break you mean that you'll be back within the next week, right? xD Naw. I'll still yell at you in the chat. Have fun, girlie~ 22:47, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Noooo, 'Teldy, you have a great skill for art and charart, and PCA will miss you. Hope to see you come back soon! 23:53, 17, 03, 2012

Bye Teldy! PCA will really miss you!!-- 00:31, March 18, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

Teldy...... Teldy no....... Not you too..... *runs off sobbing* Please come back soon? ;.; All the epic users are leaving..... D; 00:54, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

'Teldy, dun leave us! But anyways, we'll miss you lots! 03:09, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Awwww "teldy why?? D'X I hope you come back soon!!! *goes off in a corner and cries* 17:11, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

* in tears* Nooo...now you? DDDX We'll miss you so much. *continues to sob hysterically* 08:29, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Requirements for Tweak/Redo Voting
Hey all! I'm just suggesting a tiny change this time, don't worry.

I've noted how frustrating it can be for a warrior to be unable to have any say in what chararts get tweaked or redone except for the option to propose them. Warriors aren't given a chance to defend their chararts (or chararts they like) with votes, only comments. So, I'd like to propose that instead of allowing only senior warriors and up vote in the nominations, we simply have a charart approval minimum like we do for becoming a warrior. Let's say 10 chararts either from scratch or redone and you can vote? Maybe 15? Sound good to anyone? 16:34, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. I would think 15 chararts form scratch or redone (Maybe 4 tweaks, 'cause knowing basic knowledge of tweaking is important). Though, I'm not that sure about it. If a warrior comments on a nomination, for an example, saying that it looks fine in a certain way, but not counting it as a vote, SMs should take that user's opinion into thought, and try thinking the way that user does. So pretty much, even if someone is not allowed to vote, SMs should take the opinion of the commenter as one factor (along with his/her own opinion as another factor) when deciding if it's fine to redo or not. 16:40, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

I guess that sounds good. How about 10 and has been a warrior for like 3 months? I think if more people are allowed to vote, the number of votes to pass should be changed to like 5 or something. 16:42 Sun Mar 18

Good idea, Mounty. Upping the number of votes to pass or fail would compensate for the increased number of voters. 16:44, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

It's a good idea, but I don't think it's necessary, as Stone said, warriors can comment and SW's take the comment into account of how they vote. If it does happen, I think 12 for chararts approved and a warrior for 3 months. (like Mounty said) and the amount of users who vote goes to 5 (I copied Mounty again). 06:06, 19, 03, 2012

I think it's a good idea. It would allow users like Shelly and Breezewhisker, who both know tons about chararts and pelt styles, to vote, and could prove very useful in the future. 06:18, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Huh... When the system was approved, I always thought that voting extended to warriors, apprentices, etc. Oversight, I guess. But I think that if a user's been made a warrior, they've already demonstrated their knowledge of making their own chararts, so maybe a warrior for a two weeks and at least five tweaks done and approved? 23:08, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Seems a bit low, Scarlet. I dunno, I think at least seven chararts so warriors have decent experience on the tweak page as well. Warrior for two weeks would be fine. And, as we've already said, upping the number of votes needed to five instead of three. -- 23:11, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

PCA
can i please join pca? i would need a mentor because i shade by using an airbrush so i would need to learn how to use proper shading so yea. thanks please include me in pca!

Echoflower 18:59, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Moved topic to the correct spot.

I'll add you in right now. Make sure that you read the guidelines before posting/commenting on an image, and if you need help, check out the tutorials, and you can apply for a mentor at the mentor program. 19:06, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

...byeeee~
Hey you people of PCA...how to put this...er...I'm going to be leaving...the project. (for now). Why, you may wonder? I'm not that much into art as I was when I first joined....Er...probably lack of time in the summer  (Arizona, Florida, and many other places~!)  , drama, life, and all that stuffs. But, I will return in the far-ish future. :3 (Fall) I freaking love you all, and I'll miss the project, but, for now, I bid you, fairwell. 02:40, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

...uhg. Fine. Baaayyeeeeh Twi...I'll go tackle you in the chat some moar. :c 02:41, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Twi, no matter what you think, you are amazing. I'm sad to see you leave and I hope you come back sooner than fall. I'll miss you dearly. Good-bye *salutes* and goodluck! *cries* 02:43 Mon Mar 19

Wtf is with everyone leaving PCA recently? Good luck, Twi. We'll miss you. 02:49, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

D'aww...Twi. Dx I don't want ya to leave, but I respect your choice. Good luck with life, Twi, and may StarClan light your path.~ 03:11, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

What? I think I need hearing aids because I just did not hear that. Awww... hope you come back. Your art skills were awesome. Why is so many users leaving? <span style="">05:50, 19, 03, 2012

You might be leaving here, but I can still get you on chat. >8D But yeah, bye :c <font face="Arial" size="1" color="Blue" >Sky Exterminate! 06:10, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Y u too? D: PCA will miss you and your incredible skill~ And now...I must resort to annoying you in teh chat :D 08:32, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Nuuu DXX And I agree with Cloudy >.> *sob sob* Have a good break, and I hope to see you soon~ :3  20:07, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Why Twi?? Well anyways PCA will miss you. Hope you come back-- 21:49, March 19, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

(nobody kill me but...) NUUUUUUU DADDY! YOU IS SO GOODYS! *SOBS* DADDY NUUU! You're really good at chararts and given me many tips and helpfullnesses.... ;)  Sandy    I think   Daddy's   my slave!   22:18, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

D'aww, Twee. It's sad to see you go. May Cody be with you (no me xD) and I can't wait for your return! *salutes* 22:20, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Twi...Nooo.. Why are so many users leaving?? We hope you come back ^^ You'll be greatly missed. And come back soooon!! 22:35, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

We'll miss you Twi! May StarClan grant you many moons of rest and we wish you off well. 23:03, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Aw... bye Twi. Your chararts were amazing and I hope you can rejoin soon. :) 03:08, March 20, 2012 (UTC)

A Friendly Reminder for Senior Warriors
Hey all. I was just going through the tweak nomination page and archives, and I've noticed more than once that some senior warriors are removing nominations from the page without archiving them. That's no good. For instance, on Shellheart's tweak nomination, I had asked Sky a question before the thing was taken off, but since it wasn't archived I had to go digging to find out if my question was answered, and since that page is edited a lot I had to dig through quite a bit.

Please remember that all nominations, whether approved or declined, must be archived. Thank you. 18:11, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Snake and Ice
It says on page 292 of The Darkest Hour, "Not far away, Barley and Ravenpaw were battling side by side against a pair of identical gray toms..." but Snake's image is much lighter than Ice's. should we tweak that? 16:57, March 20, 2012 (UTC)

You can nominate them here. Breeze  whisker  18:59, March 20, 2012 (UTC)