Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Ken and Jean - Separate Them?
This article is the only character article that has planned status. I want to see if I can change that. :)

Before I start digging in, I want to see if anyone would like to separate them. I personally believe that we should. I know that they're not major characters, but we've made article for cats without names, so I see no reason why each character shouldn't have their own pages. What do you guys think? Leave your thoughts down below and I'll weigh both sides and possibly create a vote accordingly. :) 15:51, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but didn't we make articles for Sol's Father and Leafstar's Mother simply because they had relevance to their individual plots? With Ken and Jean, the two are only relevant to the plot together, in my opinion. There'd be a lot less to write about them seperately than together, at least in Jean's case. 15:57, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

I always wondered why they weren't separate. I think they should be, because they are different characters. Their individual roles should still be acknowledged, no matter how small. Look at the allegiances-only cats. They have articles of their own, even though we'll probably never see them do anything important in the books, because they're still characters. 17:49, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, they are seperate characters, and should be treated as such. 21:57, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

I think they should be separate characters as well. We do the same for other minor characters, instead of grouping them together. Mistkit and Nightkit, for example, as well as Leafstar's Mother and Sol's Father. Just because they're human characters doesn't really mean much of anything...and since the page is only "started" status, we wouldn't have to worry about changing any of the gradings.

Have we come to a conclusion on this? Are we going to separate them, or not? This discussion has been sitting here for almost a month with no feedback.

I vote that we separate them. 16:52, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

No. This needs to go to a AfD. 03:48, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Senior warriors and citing ranks
Wow I completely forgot to bring this up. xD Anyways, so I was discussing with Teldy about this a bit, and she said to bring up an actual discussion about it. I was editing a bit the other day and noticed a couple of characters who were in the senior warrior category, though I have no memory of them ever being mentioned. As it's a category, I can't add a cite tag to it, and even if I could, nobody could cite it to prove they are one. So I was thinking perhaps we could list them in the charcats like any other rank, and cite where it specifically says they're a senior warrior. But then we also couldn't cite those and not the other ranks, as it'd be inconsistent. So maybe we should just cite all ranks in the charcat? It'd be helpful with more than just the senior warriors too, for instance, characters like Pad, who's in the manga only which I know a lot of people have never read, is listed as a Loner, Kittypet, and Kit. However he's only a kit, and he was only in one book. So how do we know it's real unless you can read the book yourself? Am I rambling?

Anyways, so what do you guys think? Should we add the Senior Warrior rank to the charcat, and/or cite ranks? 08:54, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think it might be hard to cite where a character is mentioned as a SW, but it wouldn't be impossible to find. I'm not against the idea. 15:44, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

I also think it'd be a good idea to cite the other ranks (like kit, elder, etc.). 15:50, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it would be hard to find the cites, but in a way, that's kinda the point. So few SWs are mentioned in the series, and yet there's so many in the category. If it's hard to cite, a lot may be taken out due to lack of cite, which is the point. 00:45, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

That's true. I agree with this idea. 13:11, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, Paleh. I don't remember some of the cats in that category being called SWs... 01:15, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree we should cite the ranks. However, I don't know about adding the SW. In fact, I might put up an AfD for that category just because it will always remain incomplete. We basically know all of the SWs in ThunderClan since that's where the point of view is coming from. But we have not the faintest clue who's SW in the other Clans. I mean, yes, there's the ones who are older cats than some of the newer ones, but we still don't know for sure if they are SWs. Then there are the middle group where they've been alive a couple of books, yet they're not as old as others, and we really don't know. 01:20, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmmm true, it won't ever be complete, but then most categories won't ever be "complete". We probably won't know every Windclan cat for instance, or every Tribe of Endless Hunting cat. But you're right, the only ones we really know are ThunderClan. I'm not sure it's really needed. I'd support and AfD, but not necessarily cause it won't ever be "complete". 21:42, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea. I have an idea for citing a character being described as a senior warrior. If one cat is newly mentioned as one, cats that are of similar age can have that used as their citation as well. That would make sense, since I'd think age pretty much qualifies a cat for a senior warrior rank. Oh, and yeah, I'm trying to be helpful to other projects now, so hi! :) 21:55, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Ohai Ivy! 8D But it's not always about age. Usually, but not always, so it'd be assuming if we cited a cat as a senior warrior cause a cat a similar age is one. For instance, Thistleclaw and Tigerclaw established themselves as senior warriors fairly young, before Bluestar even, who was older than them. 23:42, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

I would cite the ranks, however, I still am against having senior warriors being added. While "being incomplete" is definitively not a legal reason to delete a category or disregard the rank, it's still pretty biased. I mean, we'd have most all of ThunderClan as senior warriors and maybe some RiverClan due to Crookedstar's Promise, but otherwise it'd seem we would be favoring ThunderClan. Plus, as Paleclaw said, age is a hint but not a fact. 03:33, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Snowy ~ Silver Nomination
Um, I would like to nominate Snowy for silver. I did random page, and what do you know, Snowy came up. :3 I am trying my best to edit her to make her legible for silver. 00:17, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

OK, but you don't need to nominate a character for bronze, you only nominate them for silver and gold. 00:47, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Oops! Sorry, I'm really nominating Snowy for Silver. :3  21:19, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Expand Firestar's Quest if you can. 21:21, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

It's OK, and can you add maybe one or two more quotes... Ducksplash    Talk!  PC  Edits  21:43, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Kay, added a quote and added a sentence to Firestar's Quest. :3 00:42, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Mmm...this is completely optional, but you might consider changing the main quote. Maybe to the first one in the quotes section about how she spends time around Twolegs? 15:27, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Changed Main Quote. 14:37, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Piketooth ~ Silver Nomination
I redid a couple things, added a bit of history. Very minor character... Comments? 22:20, April 29, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

Could you add maybe a couple more quotes?

Can you try and detail the history a little more?

Gar I was gonna nominate him. :3 Can you combine some of the paragraphs? There seems to be more than necessary. 22:39, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

I own Crookedstar's Promise, so I looked for quotes before I nominated him. There aren't anymore

Done. I detailed the history as much as I could. With the combining of paragraphs, all of them were about different things, so i couldn't really combine them.-- 20:39, May 1, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

There's a status issue on his page. Can you either fix it or have someone else fix it? 13:08, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

(I fixed it, Chez, it only takes a second.) In the third paragraph from the bottom, is it possible to detail Crookedjaw and Willowpaw's conversation any more? 13:33, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Frecklewish - Silver Nomination
Just finished with the quotes, and I expanded SkyClan's Destiny a lot a few days ago because the events weren't in order. I think I can expand After the Flood a tiny bit. Comments? 02:26, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

I think you should expand After the Flood a bit 10:43, April 30, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

Done. That's all I can really do with AtF, she was only mentioned that one time. 15:46, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Can you add a reference for her Kittypet name, right now it's just one of the [Source?] tags. 21:01, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

That's meant to be like that, since we're currently in the process of finding out what her kittypet name was. It's not going to affect the overall quality of the article, so it's fine.

CBV?

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Willowshine ~ Silver Nomination
8D Willowshine~ Her style and history seems quite well now, except the sections of Po3, which I'll get to. Comments? 04:12, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

You might consider changing the main quote. Just because there are more descriptive ones, like when she talks about how much she loves being a medicine cat and what have you.... x3 04:16, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Can you expant the sections Dawn, Sign of The Moon, Eclipse, and Outcast in any way?

If you've fixed the concerns on her talk page, can you remove the box saying that she needs improvements? 01:11, May 4, 01 (UTC)

I removed the style template, and I changed the quote, but it was changed again...*shrugs* I'll get to the history now. 19:10, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Running Fox ~ Silver Nomination
I'd fixed it up before I left and I think it's ready still. There aren't any more quotes I can add. Comments, concerns? 22:19 Tue May 1

Reword the last paragraph. 22:20, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Is there anyway you can expand the Long Shadows section?♘ Duck Splash ♞

I can't expand Long Shadows, but I'll reword the last paragraph if I can. 23:44 Tue May 1

Done. 13:27 Wed May 2

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Sheeptail ~ Silver Nomination
It looks fine to me, and I went through the book, poor thing never gets a word out, so comments? 22:33 Tue May 1

Is there any way you can expand the history? 17:46, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

A message from Sweet: She says she can't expand it anymore. Skt Like a baws  13:26, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

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Weedwhisker ~ Silver Nomination
I reworded the history a bit, and added some things. I couldn't find any quotes to add. Anyways, comments?-- 23:26, May 1, 2012 (UTC)Moonshine

Could you reword the first paragraph and expand the next two sentences?♘ Duck Splash ♞ 12:18, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

On his talk page it says he's only started status. Can you change it to bronze? 13:12, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

I upgraded it to bronze. But could you detail the second paragraph of BP? I seem to remember either him saying something about Bluepaw's squirrel, or one of the warriors saying that he'd enjoy it.... 23:38, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Talonstar ~ Silver Nomination
He's kind of boring, but he has already been nominated for bronze status. Comments? 18:48, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Expand his history if you can, or detail his appearances please. 21:39 Wed May 2

Done. 00:06, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Add a quote please. 19:17, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Oddly enough, he actually doesn't have any direct quotes. He talks, but it says something like "Talonstar begins his report" or "Talonstar assures." So I don't think any quotes of him can be added. Sorry. 23:40, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Scorchfur ~ Silver Nomination
I remember putting this one up before, I can't expand anything or find any quotes but if anything needs to be re-worded or flow better than I can do that. Comments? 21:10 Wed May 2

Can you expand Battles of The Clans any?<sup style="color:red">♘ Duck <sup style="color:teal">Splash <sup style="color:red">♞ 21:15, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. <span style="">21:47 Wed May 2

I'm probably nitpicking, but could you rephrase Fading Echoes? 22:09, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yes ma'am I can and I did. (Nitpicking is fine, we want quality articles don't we?) :) <span style="">20:45 Thu May 3

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Sol's Twoleg
Should the twoleg that owns Sol in The Rescue be given a page? She appears physically, has lines, and makes a major impact on the main plot of the book. We have cats with articles that make less of an impact and don't ever appear at all. I'd figure we'd either name the article Sol's Twoleg or Harry's Twoleg. I've already added her to the twoleg page under significant twolegs. 21:35, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think that she should. If she has lines, then she should. 21:36, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I Agree<sup style="color:red">♘ Duck <sup style="color:teal">Splash <sup style="color:red">♞ 22:01, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Wow, you're right, Shelly, she should. She's a significant character, human or not. I'd say "Sol's Twoleg" would be a more appropriate name than "Harry's Twoleg". 22:04, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

"Sol's Twoleg" would make a lot more sense, since there may very well be people that haven't read the SkyClan graphic novels, so they might not know who Harry is. I mean, yeah, they could search it, but, we'd be better off putting "Sol" instead of "Harry", since that's what his name is as of now, and what he's known as. Plus, Sol even said that Harry wasn't his real name anyways.

Ken and Jean were given articles, so why not for this one? I agree. 22:55, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Sol's Twoleg should get one, she spoke lines and was seen more than once. It should be called "Sol's Twoleg" (IMO). I agree with everything that has been said already. :3 <span style="">20:37 Thu May 3

Thistlepaw (P3) ~ Silver Nomination
His history looks good and he doesn't say much. Comments? 22:39, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Are there any quotes about him? 04:42, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Could you rephrase Dark River, and if it's at all possible, detail it too, please? 23:34, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Done and I don't think he says anything that describes his personality. I don't have the book to look for quotes. 22:34, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Elaborate the section on Long Shadows in the history. Even though he didn't appear, what were his siblings doing since they appeared? 19:15, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Done. 23:36, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Rage ~ Silver Nomination
I hope it's fine to nominate this...First nomination! Comments? Hollyleaf123456789 17:05, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

If there is one, add a quote about his appearance or his personality. 17:19, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Can you reword the first paragraph?<sup style="color:red">♘ Duck <sup style="color:teal">Splash <sup style="color:red">♞ 16:32, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Cause of Death in Charcat
Okay, so I was discussing this in chat, and  mostly >.>   everyone thought it was a good idea. So hear me out.

Adding cause of death to charcat. Yes, it's already in the article, but so is their post-death, their name, their Clan, their family, their deputies, their apprentices, their mentors, their preceding and following leader, etc., etc. It could be between the age and the post-death. For example, Willowpelt would be just "Death = Killed by a badger ", the cite being the exact page the cause of death was identified, not the page they died on. If a cat was killed by another cat, it would be "Death = Killed by (for example) Scourge(cite)" For leaders, it could be the cause of death of their last life, the one that caused them to actually die (Bluestar drowning, Sunstar dogs, etc.).

Thoughts on all of this? 16:48, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea because it kills the need to waste time of scrolling down to the last book they appear in before they die to see why.-- 16:50, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea. They already say if they're dead or not, so why not add how they died? owo  Jack  never let go, loonie ❤  17:47, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with this. More information we can add 8D 18:04, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. 19:00, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

It's good to me...but we need to be really careful about what we add, and it should be added if and only if it's been directly stated in the book. No "I thinks" or "this may have been how they died" or any of that. There are going to be people that think a character may have died of sickness or old age, when in fact it could have been something else. If we don't know, and can't provide an accurate reference where it's been directly stated, don't add it.

Exactly. Even with Firestar. We don't know if it was the wounds, the fire, or a branch hitting him on the head or something that killed him. 19:08, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

No, actually, that we do know. Kate said that it was his wounds caused by the battle with Tigerstar that killed him. The fire was to bring Dovewing back to her senses.

All right. So for that, we'd need a cite that linked to her blog, or wherever that was. 19:12, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

So... it would be something along these lines?


 * Death = Killed by wounds (revealed on Kate's Blog)

Or, however you want to do it...

No, no. It'd be like a regular cite. So Death = Killed by wounds[1], with the cite linking to Kate's blog. 19:17, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Even though I disagreed with it in chat, I think now that it'd be a good idea. 22:46, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds Great!<sup style="color:red">♘ Duck <sup style="color:teal">Splash <sup style="color:red">♞ 18:33, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

So long as it fell beneath the spoiler warning, I'd be fine with it. But what would we do with leaders? List nine deaths? Or just list their final death? 00:30, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

For leaders it would be their final life. That'd make the most sense. 00:40, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, especially because when leaders lose a life, it's not a permanent death (unless it's their ninth, of course). We already list how a leader lost each life at the bottom of the article. 15:21, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's all fine and good then. The admins are currently in the middle of tweaking the charcats anyway (adding in a toggle that will allow the charcats to show two chararts at once), shall we ask them to put this in while they're working on it? 15:50, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should 15:53, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Mmhm. It can't hurt to ask anyway. :3 13:25, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

I can add in this part. Do we have a community consensus? 03:37, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm consenting. -totally not biased- 03:39, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Certainly no objections from me.

Seems so, yes. 03:57, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I support this. 22:37, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

I support. But just to be totally clear, we're only adding this if it's completely clearly stated what the cause was, correct? 01:06, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

[Should have commented on this before] I support. ^^ 01:09, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

I should note, I feel we should keep the second deaths for cats that are killed in StarClan or the Dark Forest after dying once already. They are killed a second time, we should list it under their causes of death. So please stop removing that info from the charcats. 15:35, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. It's not their bodies that are being killed, it's their spirits. They have already died. This section is for initial death only.

Also, just because you "feel" something doesn't make it law. Let's decide something before adding it into the article and demanding it stay that way. 19:16, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Loon, let's make a decision before you go around removing it, eh?

Their spirit dying is a second death. The section is for cause of death, and if they die twice we might as well list both. I understand not listing all nine deaths for leaders since we already have sections for that, but for cats that die once and then are killed in the afterlife, we should list both instances. It'll make it as thorough as possible. 19:19, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

A decision should be made before the stuff's even added in the first place.

I think it should be used for what caused them to go to StarClan. They're already dead when they fade. Initial cause of death only, imho.

Agreeing here, first death only. And yes, things that weren't discussed should be removed until discussed further, not kept till then. 10:17, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Sandypaw ~ Silver Nomination
Re-wrote history, and expanded as much as I could. Comments?

I'm pretty sure Patchfoot, Fallowfern and Petalnose didn't actually leave, they just talked about it, so that might need removing.(Look on Page 73 of After the Flood) 06:15, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it was implied that they left. (I know what page it is, I have the book. >.>) I think it's fine, imho.

I rephrased it, since I'm not really in the mood to argue. =.=

Perhaps detail the section on AtF, in the history. Exactly what was his reaction to those thinking about leaving? And why were those cats thinking about leaving? 19:13, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

I can't detail it, Stone. There's nothing more there to detail. XD

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New Feature on Charcats Coming Soon
For those of you that don't know yet, a new feature on the charcats will be coming soon. At the moment there's a few kinks that are being worked out, but it'll be done sooner than later.

The switch template will be for characters such as the daylight warriors who are two ranks at once. The page linked shows how to use it when it's all done. Sicne this template will be only effecting character articles, I figured it'd be best to post it here. ^^

Ciao. 04:00, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Willowpelt - Silver Nomination
I've wanted to nominate her since I first joined PC. Anyway, I changed the main quote, and I'll be adding more this evening. I expanded the overall history, and added a section for Midnight, because she was mentioned. So, suggestions? 00:24, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

This is just a pet peeve of mine, but could you get the quotes section in chronological order? 01:13, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

Can you expand the Fireand Ice and A Dangerous Path sections? 02:24, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the quotes. Why on earth did I arrange them like that? I can't expand Fire and Ice because I don't have the book, but I'd really appreciate it if someone who does have it could help me out. If there's anything else to add, that is. I can't expand A Dangerous Path at all, but I rephrased it a little. 14:49, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

I can help you out with Fire and Ice. 15:10, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

That would be great; thanks! :3 13:52, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Vicky's Facebook in Template:R (again)
So I decided to try out adding Facebook to the R template again by stealing the old code and playing around with it, and I think I found a way to do it that may be useful. Not perfect, but usable.

Each common cite used can be added to a page, like R/b, and given a unique name. For instance, there's a cite where Vicky confirms all the parents of the original main characters in the original series, Sandstorm, Dustpelt, Ravenpaw, and Graystripe. That would be named oskits or something of the sort. Now this method is only really useful for very common cites, such as family cites and such, but I still think it'd be useful to have.

Example;

Makes

Make sense? Any comments or questions? 01:01, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, forgot to mention, the page that lists the names for the links is here. 09:58, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Good work.

After StarClan only knows how many hours of playing around with the code, it works. Now, let's hope it //stays// working. =P

Lightningtail ~ Silver Nomination
Their name is mentioned once. I can't expand, add quotes, or elaborate on //anything//.

Should his warrior name be in his charcat? I don't remember it ever being mentioned. ☛Duc kspl  ash☚  03:45, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't be. I'm trying to find out who added it in. Lightningtail's name is mentioned //once//, and that's under Thunder/Thunderstar's deputy listing.

Crouchpaw ~ Silver Nomination
Well, he looks good. Comments? ☛Duc kspl  ash☚  04:26, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Can you add elaborate on TFW? What was Onestar picking a fight about? 11:36, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Finished ☛Duc kspl  ash☚  01:53, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Coal ~ Silver Nomination
Ogawd I started this back during the winter break. owo Anyways, I rewrote most of his history, and bumped him up to bronze. Any suggestions? 23:26, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Are there any more quotes that you can add? ☛Duc kspl  ash☚  03:09, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Harespring - Silver Nomination
I expanded and reworded his history and he looks good. Comments? ☛Duc kspl  ash☚  19:30, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Can you expand Eclipse some more? 20:01, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Finished. ☛Duc kspl  ash☚  20:35, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Expand and/or elaborate The Last Hope. Nice! 02:07, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Rock Beneath Still Water ~ Silver Nomination
Comments? I can't expand Dawn, so don't even ask. xD

Any more quotes? ☛Duc kspl  ash☚  22:05, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. None at all.

Not Added
Hello! Sorry to bother everyone, but I requested to join, and was accepted, into the group on October 4th (seen here), but I was looking through the members list, and didn't see my name there. If it is there, could you please show me where? :-] Thanks.

(P.S. I even looked for my former name, IsabellaLover, but saw nothing there.) <font color="DarkTurquoise">Katara <font color="DarkTurquoise">Lover 21:55, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

You were most likely removed for being inactive. If you'd like to be added back in, one of us can do that for you. We //do// remove members who don't contribute to the project. x.x

Oh, I see. Thank you for explaining that. I would like to re-join, then. I promise to be more active this time, and will try my hardest to do so. <font color="DarkTurquoise">Katara <font color="DarkTurquoise">Lover  3:05, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Refresh on the guidelines if needed. I'll add you in momentarily. 22:08, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! :D I'll get to work on it soon. :) <font color="DarkTurquoise">Katara <font color="DarkTurquoise">Lover 22:14, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Flight of Startled Heron - Silver Nomination
She's a really minor character, not much more I can add. Comments? ☛Duc kspl  ash☚  05:10, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Halftail and One-eye's ages.
It states on Halftail's page that he is older than One-eye. Is this confirmed? Or is it just assumed he is older because he was a Warrior when she was an Apprentice? She could have been held back because of her blind eye, and could've need more training than warriors with complete vision. Thank you for your time :3 -bows- 10:45, May 24, 2012 (UTC)