Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Family Tree Icons
To what extent should we use these for a cat's description? (sounds like an essay question not my intention lol) We've already used these for Swiftbreeze and such. Another question is what if they've been consistently depicted in a certain way? (for example, Tawnypelt being tortie-and-white in every artwork of her)

like it was said in the discord, it should be all or nothing really, unless it's specifically contradicted. it is technically an official source after all. 15:54, March 2, 2019 (UTC)

We don't merge manga descriptions with book ones, so how's that any different tbh? If we take icons, but won't merge published mangas, then we run into the same dilemma. And if we take colors from the official tree, then we should be matching the shades to them as well, because it's a visual source and not a written one, otherwise we get into the combining tons of partials range. Tawnypelt is a notable example, she's pale and mottled in the books, but definitely not so in her art. Imo, we should be taking the official art because it's so consistent in said case, but if we do then that has to be something we do for others too. The website has also picked up a habit of... copying our errors lmao, even though we fix them it's like an accordion effect, and so when it eventually gets fixed it'll be for moot rip

I agree not to merge the descriptions. It should be seen as an alt tbh 17:26, 3/03/2019

My question is... who are we to decide what does or doesn't count? The family trees are officially released content from Working Partners. Why should it be seen as an alt? Because it "contradicts written text"? Because in the cases of Tawnypelt and Shellpaw, at least, it doesn't contradict anything- it adds onto their current description and is in no way, shape, or form a contradiction. In Tawnypelt's case, both "pale" and "mottled" were used less than the amount of times she is depicted as a "darker" tortie-and-white. Given that the designs are used across various pieces of media (The Ultimate Guide, Cats of the Clans, Battles of the Clans, and the family tree), I feel we shouldn't be regarding that instance as a mistake.

I could see merging the descriptions if it does not contradict what we have. But, that in and of itself should only apply to when a character is actually addressed as said description. For Tawnypelt, that wouldn't be merging, as she is depicted as a tortie. For others, it might be considered combining two sources that have nothing to do with one another.

Mapleshade has a good example: she was said to have a white tail while she is called ginger-and-white. We cannot and should not combine that with her tortie-and-white description, because she was not called tortie-and-white in the book where the mention occurred. Most of these can be used in some way, like changing Swiftbreeze's coloring, but we need to look at them with a close eye and probably even in a case-by-case basis to some extent. They shouldn't be added without discussing it completely here, though. ​​​

I think I agree most with Troll. All or nothing.

I've been thinking for a bit of the family tree icons. If you look, I think it's supposed to represent their heads. Their shaped like cat's heads, the tabbies have the tabby pattern of a cat's head. So I'm not sure the description we take from them is supposed to be describing their heads or something (e.g. Tawnypelt has white on her head?)Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:29, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

As Jayie said in the chat, these icons weren't meant to be totally accurate and detailed descriptions, and things such as tabby markings and speckles likely wouldn't be fixed in the future to be completely true to what a cat is. They're not complete, and not always 100% accurate, then. I think we should be careful with what we do with these and some as alts might be more accurate - a tiny icon shouldn't determine a cat's listed appearance with the addition of a new color, when it's not necessarily reflecting the cat's whole description.

So you're saying it's like in book allegiances where it's only of a partial of their full description? So like Tawnypelt is a mottled tortoiseshell while her allegiances generally say tortoiseshell, while her family tree icon shows her as tortoiseshell-and-white?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:04, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

It's not a detailed description, but it's still a representation. Even though it's simplistic, I'm sure people can reasonably deduce a color and what the icon is supposed to represent, like Tawnypelt having white. It may be a case by case basis (like whether the official art also consistently depicts the cat in a certain way) but we still should take the icons into some consideration.

i think we should take some of the icons into consideration, but for the ones that totally contradict their descriptions (coughcough dustpelt) then no merging. it really depends tbh. because these are still official in a way.

Dustpelt's icon has been fixed. However, I think a mergable icon would be Tawnypelt's, as she is listed as tortie-and-white, and most of her official art, including her image for her own novella, depict her as white. I'd say it would be enough to merge white in her description. 16:35, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

Unknown gender
Just a thought, but how about for characters who have a description and no gender, instead say, for example: Boulder is a gray tabby cat. instead of Boulder is a gray tabby cat with an unknown gender. honestly it just adds an unnecessary amount of text to the page when they already have the unknown gender category on their page 17:21, 3/03/2019

Hm I mean yeah, and it's kinda antiquated to use nowadays too, maybe wishful thinking but it might not be unknown, it could be 'none' if that's how a cat identified (rip authors probably never ever doing that, but still)

I want a nonbinary cat please. Anyways, yeah, we should probably just remove the "unknown gender" thing and just do what you suggested. ​​

I'm already doing it with Minor characters because there are so many and it's just so much clutter. So I agree.

What about 'unknown descriptions'? Like, we have characters like Lowbranch where we know gender but not description, and it would look fine without adding the 'unknown description' part.

But then that brings up characters like Morningmist, what do we do with them? 'Morningmist is a cat'?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:35, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

Do we need a description at all at that point? Would it be terrible to just launch into the history?

Alternatively, should a cat like that go onto the minor character least, even if named? 19:29 Sat Mar 16 2019

yeah honestly I'd be okay with cats like that going on minor characters^^

I think an alternative way to work with the characters such as Morningmist, would just be to jump right into the history, because idk, but i honestly think moving them to the minor character page might confuse some people

maybe we can redirect the pages to the minor character page under their name? 21:26, 3/16/2019

Sorry, but I'm definitely not for moving cats with confirmed names to the minor characters pages. That defeats the purpose of the original idea behind said pages to begin with, and some of the minor characters also have families and other information beyond a name. Just because they're lacking a description doesn't mean they shouldn't have a page.. it's possible the narrative just didn't have time for it. ​​

I agree with straight to history but not to minor characters page. That defeats the whole purpose, and the pages are getting big enough as they are.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:05, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

Hmm yeah history then. Any other comments?

Half Moon - Toggle SC
Based on Dawn of the Clans and Moth Flight's Vision, it seems like Half Moon is meant to be StarClan as well as Tribe of Endless Hunting, much like Feathertail. She should probably have a toggle for both on her page and her current affiliation to be both residencies as she is seen walking in both. I don't think her appearances in the last books of OotS are enough to confirm or deny that she is no longer a part of StarClan. <span style="">21:51 Wed Mar 13 2019

I don't think so. We don't have proof in OoTS that she moves between them. I think when the Tribe of Endless Hunting formed she joined them and left StarClan.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:25, March 14, 2019 (UTC)

Hm. I thought this had been brought up before... but yeah lack of proof imo.

I think in this case the burden of proof is on her not being in StarClan as she was previously and cats can be in both. <span style="">18:57 Thu Mar 21 2019

The prologue of The Last Hope directly calls Half Moon an ancient, and does not address her as a StarClan cat. And on page 307, she's also addressed as an ancient, despite cats like Bluestar and others called StarClan cats. ​​

Copy. ^^ <span style="">18:04 Sat Mar 23 2019

Any other comments?

Foster vs Adopt
We used the term 'foster', but I'm seeing both foster and adopt being used in the series, so I'm wondering if we should have both terms for our pages.

Foster and adopt are two different things. Foster is a temporary care, like Brokenstar with Lizardstripe for example, whereas adopt is for life, like how Thunderstar always sees Gray Wing as his father even when he is an adult. So I think we need to change some character pages from 'foster' to 'adopt' to reflect that.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:29, March 14, 2019 (UTC)

We should list them as they were said in the books^^ There's definitely a difference, and we shouldn't list them all as foster auto, because some of them weren't

Definitely agree with having both according to m what they are in the books. <span style="">19:26 Sat Mar 16 2019

Any other comments?

I definitely agree with this, ^^ 13:38, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

DotC medicine cat page names
Ah, SotC. The lovely old book that doesn't line up with DotC. We have the DotC medicine cats with the page names Pebbleheart, Cloudspots, Dapplepelt (not the other two, for varying reasons). But anyways, the cite we use for them being say, 'Pebbleheart' instead of 'Pebble Heart', is from a scene of how the medicine cats began - which very clearly sits in Moth Flight's Vision. But, MFV doesn't have the names like that; it has it's own version of the scene with him as 'Pebble Heart'. As seen that we have a controversy section on SotC's page due to the just many errors it has, I believe we should move these pages to the titles we see in DotC/MFV during that scene to more accurately reflect what he + the other two were called by. Thoughts?

yep. the scene from sotc being at the same time as mfv basically confirms it since the concept of the ancient tribe names didnt exist back then. 19:35, March 18, 2019 (UTC)

Secrets of the Clans (page 5) even says it is the 'modern version' of the story, explaining stories change overtime. So basically, it's saying what the modern Clans believe the story is, and not what actually happened. By that, I wouldn't say it's a mistake on the author's/editors per say, but on the Clans not keeping track on names.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:22, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

For the love of all that is sane in the world, can we please just disregard Secrets of the Clans when it comes to names? It's pretty clear that Dawn of the Clans is what the canon information is, not the field guide. ​

I mean going off what we've done before, SotC is just one place for the cited names while DotC and MFV have it listed several times. So wouldn't we go with MFV and DotC for that reason? 13:41, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Usually we default to first published, while any overruling (such as this will likely be) must be discussed. Anyways, any other comments?

Known Leaders and Medicine Cat Apprentices
I've been in kahoots with some community members I follow on Twitter and they've brought up a concern that I share. On the Clan pages, there is not a list of known leaders, deputies, or medicine cats. While there is a rank list based upon chronological order/succession, this excludes certain cats from Codes of the Clans, such as Owlstar the second and Dovestar. While we do not know their succession or even descriptions, they're still leaders and deserve to be on the Clan page. I do not know if there are any deputies or medicine cats that share this, but those should be included as well. Maybe on the charts adding a row for them on the bottom and put succession unknown on there? Or maybe even doing a "ThunderClan Leader" category or something.

In addition, I've also been asked about medicine cat apprentices being included on the page. Their role in the Clan is different from normal apprentices, and they are tasked with the responsibility of healing the Clan almost immediately. Maybe not by succession, but maybe by who they trained under? Thoughts? 19:27, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

I too, have been thinking about the med cat apprentices for a while now, and I second the idea of giving them their own section. Also the idea of marking down who they trained under? Is awesome. On another note, doing a Thunderclan leader, Riverclan leader, Skyclan leader, etc, would be very helpful. Heck, even dividing up the other roles that that would be neat.Ghobsmacka (talk) 20:18, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Well, we do have this, which is listed on leader. We could start categorizing them as 'ThunderClan leaders' though and slap a DPL to auto-make a displayable list, though. Personally, a MCA column would fit best in the same ways deputies are listed next to their leaders, with a then separate chart for their own listings; more neat.

I've added a couple of options here for grins. I personally think adding a separate column in the medicine cats for their apprentices looks better imo. As for this, it still not a complete list. I think all of the leaders should be listed on the Clan pages because it makes more sense imo and it's all there in one place. 01:02, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I'm a tad bit confused with where this is going. Isn't this already implemented on the Clan article pages? Or is this a more in-depth list? What I'm seeing, Vec, is something that's already listed on pages like ThunderClan. We could always just modify that to include every known one, instead of having it done by known succession order... unless I'm completely missing the point here? It's late and I'm tired, I apologize. ​​

Nah, it's okay Jayce. For the leaders, I'm just pointing out that the list of leaders we already have does not include everyone...mostly just Owlstar the 2nd and Dovestar of RiverClan. They aren't included in the list because we don't know the order of succession; Leafpool just casually mentioned them in one of the last chapters of Code of the Clans. I'm pointing out they should be included because they are still leaders of ThunderClan...and because members of the community over the years have wanted the full list; I can think back to my old deviantart days when people grumbled about this.

I think we should keep the known order of succession, since that is also very important, and just add a footnote at the bottom of the leader chart saying something like "Owlstar (CotC)'s order of succession is unknown but he appears in Code of the Clans." I just want them mentioned haha. And the mca to the lists too maybe. 12:47, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Well you could always try, instead of succession or since its pretty much shown in the books. You could always do it by books, since those seem to have an order? 13:43, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Victims killed/Deaths caused
So I know this idea has been floating around for months, started online, and I know a few people on here have drafted it/mentioned it. Basically, for the cats it warrants, to list what cats they killed, where and how (if known) and whether it was a group effort with someone. Would slot in nicely with the new format; more useful info and such, imo, and I'd certainly be interested in tallies of some of the more murderous ones like Broken and Tiger. Thoughts?

I think this would be extremely useful, I did something like it here. Personally I think it'd be neat/useful to list the kill list of some cats. Whether it be directly/indirectly caused, though some cats (eg. Hawkwing) have only killed one cat, so that list would be rather short.

02:53, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Yesss give us the kill count. 02:55, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Would be a good addition. 03:00, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Would this also include indirect killings? (For example, Bluefur bringing Mosskit in a blizzard, Brokenstar allowing apprentices under 6 moons old to fight, therefore is responsible for Badgerfang and Mosspaw's deaths) It may be biased in a way since there would be a debate on intention and that stuff.

I think this would be awesome! But it should only be direct kills. I think that could be very managable  04:22, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I think it should only be direct kills, because otherwise we have tons of things popping up and it would get kinda messy. Also there's the bias like Fox said, and the fact that they didn't really cause the deaths. (in a way they did but they're not really responsible for said cat dying)

I think it would depend on the circumstances? Eg.a cat wounds another cat, that cat doesn't die at first, but their wound worsens/gets infected and dies from that. The first cat would have caused their death, but didn't necessarily kill them. You could also argue that Tigerstar contributed to Stonefur's death in The Darkest Hour since he's the one who gave the order to kill him, although it was Blackfoot who actually killed him.

19:39, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

But Tigerstar's case is different: he didn't directly cause the kill. I'd say the first example is good because technically they still caused the kill; they wounded the other cat fatally. Tigerstar, on the other hand, didn't even touch Stonefur. Blackfoot did it all for him.

Could I see an example of this in use before I give an input? Thunder, the example you linked seems to have been deleted. I'm interested in this, but I'd like to see how it would look before I comment further. ​​​

Here, I had moved it earlier. Should work now.

08:08, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Should Brokenstar's apprenticing cats before 6 moons be indirect though since its his fault that cats so young were apprenticed? 13:44, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, he was also the one who gave the orders (for both kits and apprentices) to use brutal fighting tactics, essentially fighting to the death for "training". I would think that would be a direct cause.

01:04, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

That is indeed a direct cause. Stick would get one too because he accidently slayed his own daughter (rip Red). 22:24, March 29, 2019 (UTC)

So would the cat need to directly or intentionally cause the death? Fireheart chases Whitethroat blindly onto the Thunderpath and gets him hit by a car, he is responsible for his death, but he didn't do the deed and he didn't mean for it to happen. Or when Greystripe accidentally kills Clawface and Whiteclaw, both cases were results of fights and he didn't mean to do it, and technically with Whiteclaw the cause of death was likely drowning rather than anything Greystripe actually did to him.

RageSnake (talk) 01:39, April 4, 2019 (UTC)

Those would be listed as accidental or indirectly caused, just like Stick killing Red. 16:32, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

skyclan and shadowclan name sharing
just thought I'd bring it up here instead of going and doing it. should we rename skyclanners who share a name with someone to (SkC) or something so it's easier to differentiate them from shadowclanners? 17:33, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

makes sense. i would agree with doing that

17:43, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I think SkC would make more sense for SkyClan. or even ShC for ShadowClan. 18:02, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Hn. Even StC for the few StarClan only cats we have, perhaps? But yes to all of above as well

stc for starclanner sounds good. I think skc just because shadowclan existed before skyclan did. (publication wise, that is.) 19:15, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I'd be fine with tweaking the naming system... it is kind of confusing when we have StarClan, ShadowClan, and SkyClan. ​​

Having three SC's is very confusing! I agree. Having SkC for SkyClan, ShC for ShadowClan and StC for StarClan is a good idea. <font color="#49129b"><font face="Segoe Print"> Windsong <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana"> Run with the wind... ❀ 21:26, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with said above, it's a much easier way to tell them apart. 13:44, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

That way if there are two characters with the same name from skyclan or shadowclan, instead of saying what book they first appear in it will look a lot nicer <span style="">18:15, 3/27/2019

Any other comments?

Agreed I'm surprised we haven't run into problems with it already.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  10:24, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

offical art
when i was looking at the various covers of the books i noticed some cats should get their offical art like for example on the alternate chinese language edition mosskit is on the cover, should this count as offfical art or not (im bad at explaing things) Willowstep12 (talk) 13:01, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

do you have author proof that is who are on these covers? if so, i'm all for adding the art from different countries <span style="">13:02, 3/27/2019

no :(Willowstep12 (talk) 16:37, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

no proof, not implementing *shrug* <span style="">17:17, 3/27/2019

Yeah, no cite, no inclusion. Although, I can see about getting some references because german wwiki more likely than not has a bunch, if we agree on adding ones with proof

I think that would be super interesting to include the art from the different language editions for any that are possible! Though finding cites for them might be a bit tricky.

I think it's a great idea, as long as we have proof. At the very least they should be over at PB's pages anyway.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  10:25, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Family Tree Icons
To what extent should we use these for a cat's description? (sounds like an essay question not my intention lol) We've already used these for Swiftbreeze and such. Another question is what if they've been consistently depicted in a certain way? (for example, Tawnypelt being tortie-and-white in every artwork of her)

like it was said in the discord, it should be all or nothing really, unless it's specifically contradicted. it is technically an official source after all. 15:54, March 2, 2019 (UTC)

We don't merge manga descriptions with book ones, so how's that any different tbh? If we take icons, but won't merge published mangas, then we run into the same dilemma. And if we take colors from the official tree, then we should be matching the shades to them as well, because it's a visual source and not a written one, otherwise we get into the combining tons of partials range. Tawnypelt is a notable example, she's pale and mottled in the books, but definitely not so in her art. Imo, we should be taking the official art because it's so consistent in said case, but if we do then that has to be something we do for others too. The website has also picked up a habit of... copying our errors lmao, even though we fix them it's like an accordion effect, and so when it eventually gets fixed it'll be for moot rip

I agree not to merge the descriptions. It should be seen as an alt tbh <span style="">17:26, 3/03/2019

My question is... who are we to decide what does or doesn't count? The family trees are officially released content from Working Partners. Why should it be seen as an alt? Because it "contradicts written text"? Because in the cases of Tawnypelt and Shellpaw, at least, it doesn't contradict anything- it adds onto their current description and is in no way, shape, or form a contradiction. In Tawnypelt's case, both "pale" and "mottled" were used less than the amount of times she is depicted as a "darker" tortie-and-white. Given that the designs are used across various pieces of media (The Ultimate Guide, Cats of the Clans, Battles of the Clans, and the family tree), I feel we shouldn't be regarding that instance as a mistake.

I could see merging the descriptions if it does not contradict what we have. But, that in and of itself should only apply to when a character is actually addressed as said description. For Tawnypelt, that wouldn't be merging, as she is depicted as a tortie. For others, it might be considered combining two sources that have nothing to do with one another.

Mapleshade has a good example: she was said to have a white tail while she is called ginger-and-white. We cannot and should not combine that with her tortie-and-white description, because she was not called tortie-and-white in the book where the mention occurred. Most of these can be used in some way, like changing Swiftbreeze's coloring, but we need to look at them with a close eye and probably even in a case-by-case basis to some extent. They shouldn't be added without discussing it completely here, though. ​​​​

I think I agree most with Troll. All or nothing.

I've been thinking for a bit of the family tree icons. If you look, I think it's supposed to represent their heads. Their shaped like cat's heads, the tabbies have the tabby pattern of a cat's head. So I'm not sure the description we take from them is supposed to be describing their heads or something (e.g. Tawnypelt has white on her head?)<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:29, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

As Jayie said in the chat, these icons weren't meant to be totally accurate and detailed descriptions, and things such as tabby markings and speckles likely wouldn't be fixed in the future to be completely true to what a cat is. They're not complete, and not always 100% accurate, then. I think we should be careful with what we do with these and some as alts might be more accurate - a tiny icon shouldn't determine a cat's listed appearance with the addition of a new color, when it's not necessarily reflecting the cat's whole description.

So you're saying it's like in book allegiances where it's only of a partial of their full description? So like Tawnypelt is a mottled tortoiseshell while her allegiances generally say tortoiseshell, while her family tree icon shows her as tortoiseshell-and-white?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:04, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

It's not a detailed description, but it's still a representation. Even though it's simplistic, I'm sure people can reasonably deduce a color and what the icon is supposed to represent, like Tawnypelt having white. It may be a case by case basis (like whether the official art also consistently depicts the cat in a certain way) but we still should take the icons into some consideration.

i think we should take some of the icons into consideration, but for the ones that totally contradict their descriptions (coughcough dustpelt) then no merging. it really depends tbh. because these are still official in a way.

Dustpelt's icon has been fixed. However, I think a mergable icon would be Tawnypelt's, as she is listed as tortie-and-white, and most of her official art, including her image for her own novella, depict her as white. I'd say it would be enough to merge white in her description. 16:35, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

Unknown gender
Just a thought, but how about for characters who have a description and no gender, instead say, for example: Boulder is a gray tabby cat. instead of Boulder is a gray tabby cat with an unknown gender. honestly it just adds an unnecessary amount of text to the page when they already have the unknown gender category on their page <span style="">17:21, 3/03/2019

Hm I mean yeah, and it's kinda antiquated to use nowadays too, maybe wishful thinking but it might not be unknown, it could be 'none' if that's how a cat identified (rip authors probably never ever doing that, but still)

I want a nonbinary cat please. Anyways, yeah, we should probably just remove the "unknown gender" thing and just do what you suggested. ​​​

I'm already doing it with Minor characters because there are so many and it's just so much clutter. So I agree.

What about 'unknown descriptions'? Like, we have characters like Lowbranch where we know gender but not description, and it would look fine without adding the 'unknown description' part.

But then that brings up characters like Morningmist, what do we do with them? 'Morningmist is a cat'?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:35, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

Do we need a description at all at that point? Would it be terrible to just launch into the history?

Alternatively, should a cat like that go onto the minor character least, even if named? <span style="">19:29 Sat Mar 16 2019

yeah honestly I'd be okay with cats like that going on minor characters^^

I think an alternative way to work with the characters such as Morningmist, would just be to jump right into the history, because idk, but i honestly think moving them to the minor character page might confuse some people

maybe we can redirect the pages to the minor character page under their name? <span style="">21:26, 3/16/2019

Sorry, but I'm definitely not for moving cats with confirmed names to the minor characters pages. That defeats the purpose of the original idea behind said pages to begin with, and some of the minor characters also have families and other information beyond a name. Just because they're lacking a description doesn't mean they shouldn't have a page.. it's possible the narrative just didn't have time for it. ​​​

I agree with straight to history but not to minor characters page. That defeats the whole purpose, and the pages are getting big enough as they are.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:05, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

Hmm yeah history then. Any other comments?

Half Moon - Toggle SC
Based on Dawn of the Clans and Moth Flight's Vision, it seems like Half Moon is meant to be StarClan as well as Tribe of Endless Hunting, much like Feathertail. She should probably have a toggle for both on her page and her current affiliation to be both residencies as she is seen walking in both. I don't think her appearances in the last books of OotS are enough to confirm or deny that she is no longer a part of StarClan. <span style="">21:51 Wed Mar 13 2019

I don't think so. We don't have proof in OoTS that she moves between them. I think when the Tribe of Endless Hunting formed she joined them and left StarClan.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:25, March 14, 2019 (UTC)

Hm. I thought this had been brought up before... but yeah lack of proof imo.

I think in this case the burden of proof is on her not being in StarClan as she was previously and cats can be in both. <span style="">18:57 Thu Mar 21 2019

The prologue of The Last Hope directly calls Half Moon an ancient, and does not address her as a StarClan cat. And on page 307, she's also addressed as an ancient, despite cats like Bluestar and others called StarClan cats. ​​​

Copy. ^^ <span style="">18:04 Sat Mar 23 2019

Any other comments?

Foster vs Adopt
We used the term 'foster', but I'm seeing both foster and adopt being used in the series, so I'm wondering if we should have both terms for our pages.

Foster and adopt are two different things. Foster is a temporary care, like Brokenstar with Lizardstripe for example, whereas adopt is for life, like how Thunderstar always sees Gray Wing as his father even when he is an adult. So I think we need to change some character pages from 'foster' to 'adopt' to reflect that.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:29, March 14, 2019 (UTC)

We should list them as they were said in the books^^ There's definitely a difference, and we shouldn't list them all as foster auto, because some of them weren't

Definitely agree with having both according to m what they are in the books. <span style="">19:26 Sat Mar 16 2019

Any other comments?

I definitely agree with this, ^^ 13:38, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

DotC medicine cat page names
Ah, SotC. The lovely old book that doesn't line up with DotC. We have the DotC medicine cats with the page names Pebbleheart, Cloudspots, Dapplepelt (not the other two, for varying reasons). But anyways, the cite we use for them being say, 'Pebbleheart' instead of 'Pebble Heart', is from a scene of how the medicine cats began - which very clearly sits in Moth Flight's Vision. But, MFV doesn't have the names like that; it has it's own version of the scene with him as 'Pebble Heart'. As seen that we have a controversy section on SotC's page due to the just many errors it has, I believe we should move these pages to the titles we see in DotC/MFV during that scene to more accurately reflect what he + the other two were called by. Thoughts?

yep. the scene from sotc being at the same time as mfv basically confirms it since the concept of the ancient tribe names didnt exist back then. 19:35, March 18, 2019 (UTC)

Secrets of the Clans (page 5) even says it is the 'modern version' of the story, explaining stories change overtime. So basically, it's saying what the modern Clans believe the story is, and not what actually happened. By that, I wouldn't say it's a mistake on the author's/editors per say, but on the Clans not keeping track on names.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:22, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

For the love of all that is sane in the world, can we please just disregard Secrets of the Clans when it comes to names? It's pretty clear that Dawn of the Clans is what the canon information is, not the field guide. ​​

I mean going off what we've done before, SotC is just one place for the cited names while DotC and MFV have it listed several times. So wouldn't we go with MFV and DotC for that reason? 13:41, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Usually we default to first published, while any overruling (such as this will likely be) must be discussed. Anyways, any other comments?

Known Leaders and Medicine Cat Apprentices
I've been in kahoots with some community members I follow on Twitter and they've brought up a concern that I share. On the Clan pages, there is not a list of known leaders, deputies, or medicine cats. While there is a rank list based upon chronological order/succession, this excludes certain cats from Codes of the Clans, such as Owlstar the second and Dovestar. While we do not know their succession or even descriptions, they're still leaders and deserve to be on the Clan page. I do not know if there are any deputies or medicine cats that share this, but those should be included as well. Maybe on the charts adding a row for them on the bottom and put succession unknown on there? Or maybe even doing a "ThunderClan Leader" category or something.

In addition, I've also been asked about medicine cat apprentices being included on the page. Their role in the Clan is different from normal apprentices, and they are tasked with the responsibility of healing the Clan almost immediately. Maybe not by succession, but maybe by who they trained under? Thoughts? 19:27, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

I too, have been thinking about the med cat apprentices for a while now, and I second the idea of giving them their own section. Also the idea of marking down who they trained under? Is awesome. On another note, doing a Thunderclan leader, Riverclan leader, Skyclan leader, etc, would be very helpful. Heck, even dividing up the other roles that that would be neat.Ghobsmacka (talk) 20:18, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Well, we do have this, which is listed on leader. We could start categorizing them as 'ThunderClan leaders' though and slap a DPL to auto-make a displayable list, though. Personally, a MCA column would fit best in the same ways deputies are listed next to their leaders, with a then separate chart for their own listings; more neat.

I've added a couple of options here for grins. I personally think adding a separate column in the medicine cats for their apprentices looks better imo. As for this, it still not a complete list. I think all of the leaders should be listed on the Clan pages because it makes more sense imo and it's all there in one place. 01:02, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I'm a tad bit confused with where this is going. Isn't this already implemented on the Clan article pages? Or is this a more in-depth list? What I'm seeing, Vec, is something that's already listed on pages like ThunderClan. We could always just modify that to include every known one, instead of having it done by known succession order... unless I'm completely missing the point here? It's late and I'm tired, I apologize. ​​​

Nah, it's okay Jayce. For the leaders, I'm just pointing out that the list of leaders we already have does not include everyone...mostly just Owlstar the 2nd and Dovestar of RiverClan. They aren't included in the list because we don't know the order of succession; Leafpool just casually mentioned them in one of the last chapters of Code of the Clans. I'm pointing out they should be included because they are still leaders of ThunderClan...and because members of the community over the years have wanted the full list; I can think back to my old deviantart days when people grumbled about this.

I think we should keep the known order of succession, since that is also very important, and just add a footnote at the bottom of the leader chart saying something like "Owlstar (CotC)'s order of succession is unknown but he appears in Code of the Clans." I just want them mentioned haha. And the mca to the lists too maybe. 12:47, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Well you could always try, instead of succession or since its pretty much shown in the books. You could always do it by books, since those seem to have an order? 13:43, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Victims killed/Deaths caused
So I know this idea has been floating around for months, started online, and I know a few people on here have drafted it/mentioned it. Basically, for the cats it warrants, to list what cats they killed, where and how (if known) and whether it was a group effort with someone. Would slot in nicely with the new format; more useful info and such, imo, and I'd certainly be interested in tallies of some of the more murderous ones like Broken and Tiger. Thoughts?

I think this would be extremely useful, I did something like it here. Personally I think it'd be neat/useful to list the kill list of some cats. Whether it be directly/indirectly caused, though some cats (eg. Hawkwing) have only killed one cat, so that list would be rather short.

02:53, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Yesss give us the kill count. 02:55, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Would be a good addition. 03:00, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Would this also include indirect killings? (For example, Bluefur bringing Mosskit in a blizzard, Brokenstar allowing apprentices under 6 moons old to fight, therefore is responsible for Badgerfang and Mosspaw's deaths) It may be biased in a way since there would be a debate on intention and that stuff.

I think this would be awesome! But it should only be direct kills. I think that could be very managable  04:22, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I think it should only be direct kills, because otherwise we have tons of things popping up and it would get kinda messy. Also there's the bias like Fox said, and the fact that they didn't really cause the deaths. (in a way they did but they're not really responsible for said cat dying)

I think it would depend on the circumstances? Eg.a cat wounds another cat, that cat doesn't die at first, but their wound worsens/gets infected and dies from that. The first cat would have caused their death, but didn't necessarily kill them. You could also argue that Tigerstar contributed to Stonefur's death in The Darkest Hour since he's the one who gave the order to kill him, although it was Blackfoot who actually killed him.

19:39, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

But Tigerstar's case is different: he didn't directly cause the kill. I'd say the first example is good because technically they still caused the kill; they wounded the other cat fatally. Tigerstar, on the other hand, didn't even touch Stonefur. Blackfoot did it all for him.

Could I see an example of this in use before I give an input? Thunder, the example you linked seems to have been deleted. I'm interested in this, but I'd like to see how it would look before I comment further. ​​​​

Here, I had moved it earlier. Should work now.

08:08, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Should Brokenstar's apprenticing cats before 6 moons be indirect though since its his fault that cats so young were apprenticed? 13:44, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, he was also the one who gave the orders (for both kits and apprentices) to use brutal fighting tactics, essentially fighting to the death for "training". I would think that would be a direct cause.

01:04, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

That is indeed a direct cause. Stick would get one too because he accidently slayed his own daughter (rip Red). 22:24, March 29, 2019 (UTC)

So would the cat need to directly or intentionally cause the death? Fireheart chases Whitethroat blindly onto the Thunderpath and gets him hit by a car, he is responsible for his death, but he didn't do the deed and he didn't mean for it to happen. Or when Greystripe accidentally kills Clawface and Whiteclaw, both cases were results of fights and he didn't mean to do it, and technically with Whiteclaw the cause of death was likely drowning rather than anything Greystripe actually did to him.

RageSnake (talk) 01:39, April 4, 2019 (UTC)

Those would be listed as accidental or indirectly caused, just like Stick killing Red. 16:32, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

skyclan and shadowclan name sharing
just thought I'd bring it up here instead of going and doing it. should we rename skyclanners who share a name with someone to (SkC) or something so it's easier to differentiate them from shadowclanners? 17:33, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

makes sense. i would agree with doing that

17:43, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I think SkC would make more sense for SkyClan. or even ShC for ShadowClan. 18:02, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Hn. Even StC for the few StarClan only cats we have, perhaps? But yes to all of above as well

stc for starclanner sounds good. I think skc just because shadowclan existed before skyclan did. (publication wise, that is.) 19:15, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I'd be fine with tweaking the naming system... it is kind of confusing when we have StarClan, ShadowClan, and SkyClan. ​​​

Having three SC's is very confusing! I agree. Having SkC for SkyClan, ShC for ShadowClan and StC for StarClan is a good idea. <font color="#49129b"><font face="Segoe Print"> Windsong <font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana"> Run with the wind... ❀ 21:26, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with said above, it's a much easier way to tell them apart. 13:44, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

That way if there are two characters with the same name from skyclan or shadowclan, instead of saying what book they first appear in it will look a lot nicer <span style="">18:15, 3/27/2019

Any other comments?

offical art
when i was looking at the various covers of the books i noticed some cats should get their offical art like for example on the alternate chinese language edition mosskit is on the cover, should this count as offfical art or not (im bad at explaing things) Willowstep12 (talk) 13:01, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

do you have author proof that is who are on these covers? if so, i'm all for adding the art from different countries <span style="">13:02, 3/27/2019

no :(Willowstep12 (talk) 16:37, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

no proof, not implementing *shrug* <span style="">17:17, 3/27/2019

Yeah, no cite, no inclusion. Although, I can see about getting some references because german wwiki more likely than not has a bunch, if we agree on adding ones with proof

I think that would be super interesting to include the art from the different language editions for any that are possible! Though finding cites for them might be a bit tricky.

Join Request
Heyo, can I join this project? 19:49, April 6, 2019 (UTC)