Forum:Unknown Rank for DF Cats

Silverhawk, Snowtuft, Sparrowfeather (DF), and Shredtail
Hey guys. I was just looking through some articles...

Yeah. These four cats mentioned above. We have no proof that they were warriors, and I don't remember them even being described as such.

In these cases, their images shold not be those of warriors. Since we have descriptions but no idea what their ranks were when they died, I think it'd be safe to assign them rogue rank instead. These cats could have been loners, rogues, elders, queens, or deputies when they died. The only thing we have to go on is their actions in the afterlife, so I'd say rogues. Spottedleaf calls them rogues, anyway.

As such, I'm removing the images and rank mentions from their character pages.

Comments? 00:11, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well they have warrior names and they are technically warriors for the Dark Forest. We don't know what they died as, for all we know they could have been like Thistleclaw. The ones that Spottedleaf calledd rogues would be rogues, but the ones that we know nothing about should stay warriors. 00:16 Mon Apr 9

No, this is exactly my point, Mounty. We have no idea what these cats were when they died. But they were hardly warriors in the dark forest. They were warriors in the same way BloodClan cats were warriors, and they should be identified in the same way as well. All BloodClan warriors, even the deputy and leader, have rogue images. If we know what rank they were at death, leave them as is. If not, they shold have rogue images. 00:18, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Spottedleaf says they were rogues within their Clans, so I think the warrior images /could/ stay. Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 00:19, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

But who is to say they were warriors? They might have been deputies or queens or elders. 00:21, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

She did say they never deserved to be called warriors. Idk if that counts. Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 00:22, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

BloodClan cats were actually called rogues, they do have warrior names so we can't assume that they were kicked out of their Clan. As Sky said, they were still called warriors. 00:23 Mon Apr 9

We still have no proof they were warriors at death. None at all. We cannot make assumptions or falsify facts. They acted as rogues in the afterlife and their chararts should reflect this. 00:24, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I know that, but I'm just saying they they were called warriors (I think, bleh), so tgey should get to keep them, even if they're rogues now. (Did that make sense? >.>) Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 00:27, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I think they should get rogue blanks. Yes, they may have been warriors for the Dark Forest, but that's not a rank. Otherwise, half the apprentices would have gotten Warrior blanks for being in the Dark Forest.

Plus, we did the same thing with BloodClan, did we not? 00:32, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Not saying they shouldn't, just that they should keep the warrior images. Skt Here. Yes. Right here. 00:36, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that they should get rogue blanks due to the reasons stated above. They are quite similar to BloodClan cats, and if they get rogue images, so do these cats. Until we have actual proof on their ranks before they died, we should let them have rogues. 01:40, 09, 04, 2012

Sky, they really should not have warrior images at all. We have no proof they were ever warriors. 02:42, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think "rogues within their own Clan" means they need rogue chararts. Especially since we don't really know whether or not they were rogues at the time of their death, and they were still Clan cats - even if they weren't very nice. They weren't truly rogues if they still had a Clan, but I do agree that they shouldn't get warrior character art since we don't know if they were warriors when they died. If anything, I don't think they should have chararts at all, since they don't really have a true rank. Breeze whisker  03:53, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I still think we should go with rogue chararts, though I respect your opinion, Breezey. It's entirely reasonable for us to not give them any charart at all. However, they are cats outside of the Clans that are aggressive towards the Clans, and therefore they fit our definition of rogue. Just my opinion. 04:02, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

But are they outside the Clans? They are in the Dark Forest, which like StarClan is made up of dead Clan cats. I'd say they are still Clan cats, they just don't have the ( more noble in this case) title of warrior. Just because they are not considered warriors or part of StarClan doesn't mean they are outside of the rest of the Clan cats. Breeze whisker  04:32, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Not every cat there died in the Clans, though. Mapleshade was a rogue when she died. And they obviously considered themselves to be apart from the Clans. 04:35, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

They referred to themselves many times as "Clanmates" and "warriors." Even if they don't think they're part of the main Clans anymore, they obviously still consider themselves Clan cats. The difference is the Dark Forest cats are evil, and dead. And we don't know what rank those four were when they died, so they shouldn't get warrior chararts, but they shouldn't get rogues either since they were still Clan cats. A bit like SkyClan, I suppose, in that they aren't normal Clans, but they still consider themselves to be Clan cats. Breeze whisker  04:51, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, my two cents. I was just mulling this over in my head earlier last night. Since they have warrior names, they had to have been a warrior at some point, just like queens and characters with named mentors. However, In TLH, they are constantly saying "fight like a rogue" and identifying them as rogues, and if they were alive, they'd be exiled from their Clans in the first place. I say that the warrior images should stay, and new rogue images should be made for their current images. If not, then they shouldn't get a charart at all. I mean, they could have been a deputy or queen when they died, but they were a warrior at some point. Example being Ferncloud. She was a warrior for a short time, then a queen. -Yes- she was mostly a queen her whole life, but that doesn't erase the fact that she was a warrior. Apprentices don't immediately go from apprentice to deputy or queen. 20:10, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, but that's still flawed logic, Ivy. Remember old Tigerstar? When he went to ShadowClan, he went straight from rogue to leader. Another cat could have done something similar, going straight from being a loner or rogue to being a deputy for some reason, as illogical as it sounds. But if Tigerstar could do it, so could another cat. And I know that the Clans have taken in cats and immediately made the queens before to help them with their kits, so there's no guarantee that any of these cats were ever warriors. 21:17, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, then, by that logic, they should get no charart since we don't know their ranks. 21:23, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, here's a more simple solution since we seem to be comparing the Dark Forest to BloodClan, why don't we just make all dead Dark Forest cats rogues and keep the warrior images? 21:27 Mon Apr 9

I didn't state that right, change all dead df cats to a main rogue image, sorry about that. 21:35 Mon Apr 9

Now I'm starting to think they should have either both a rogue and warrior, or no image at all. They have warrior names, meaning they must have went through the ceremony, but if we give them rogue images, based on how they behaived in the Dark forest, would mean that all Dark forest cats would get rogue images, which I'm against. 02:40, 10, 04, 2012

The problem with having both is that we do not know if they were warriors at their time of death. We also don't know if they were rogues at their time of death either. I honestly think the best option is to not give them a charart at all since nothing really fits. Breeze whisker  03:59, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

They still have descriptions, I think it would cause more problems later on if they didn't have a charart at all. I've been jumping around with this subject but, I think we should make all dead DF cats main image should be a rogue that would include Mapleshade, Tigerstar, Thistleclaw, Antpelt, etc. 04:05 Tue Apr 10

I have another solution, but likely to be turned down. Why don't we make a Dark Forest blank to settle this situation? -Every- dead cat in the Dark Forest would get one, including Tigerstar and Hawkfrost. How's that sound? 04:15, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan of blanks for the Dark Forest cats, it's not a real rank and it's kind of unnecessary. This is a hard topic and I apologize for being so bipolar about it. Shelly, you shouldn't have taken off the current images without the project's consensus. Here is what Oblivion and I discussed:

[12:07:07 AM] Oblivion: They're NOT rogues

[12:07:23 AM] Oblivion: They had to have been warriors at some point for them to have names

[12:07:25 AM] Mounty: this topic is hard

[12:07:40 AM] Mounty: they're tecnically warriors for the df

[12:08:11 AM] Oblivion: Next thing we know, Thistleclaw and Hawkfrost are getting rogues

[12:08:38 AM] Oblivion: And why isn't Darkstripe's warrior image his main...? He was a warrior of ShadowClan, just like Tigerstar was leader

[12:11:15 AM] Oblivion: But by the Sparrowfeather logic, do Thistleclaw and Hawkfrost need rogue images...?

[12:11:32 AM] Oblivion: And by THAT logic, Tigerstar and Brokenstar's rogues should be their main

[12:11:36 AM] Mounty: Yeah

[12:12:51 AM] Oblivion: DF warriors is not a rank just like BloodClan warriors is not a rank

[12:13:06 AM] Mounty: They were warriors

[12:13:19 AM] Oblivion: But it's not a Clan

[12:13:29 AM] Oblivion: They don't live by Clan rules, nor do they have a leader

[12:13:33 AM] Mounty: It's like Aspentail she could have been an elder or a queen when she died.

[12:13:42 AM] Oblivion: They just have a bunch of senior warriors

[12:14:36 AM] Mounty: and people were suggesting no images which WILL lead to more problems if we go that way

[12:14:57 AM] Oblivion: Rogue seems like the best solution

[12:15:01 AM] Mounty: They have descriptions so they need something

[12:15:17 AM] Oblivion: But Sparrowfeather etc. SHOULD have warrior images since they HAD to have been warriors at some point

[12:15:33 AM] Mounty: so they should have both?

[12:15:40 AM] Oblivion: Yep

We both agree that they should have both, with a rogue as the main image. Thoughts? 07:39 Tue Apr 10

No... you know what? They shouldn't have any images at all. Like Fall, whose description we know but have no rank for, they can't get anything based on presumption. We cannot assume anything. And that's all there is to it in the end. 12:46, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

And if you want to go by the whole "they were warriors to the Dark Forest" thing, then you might as well be giving Hawkfrost a leader image since he was a leader there. Thistleclaw, too. And while we're at it we might as well go back and give Scourge a leader image and Bone a deputy image, and all the BC cats warrior images. Except that would be stupid. They were all rogues. Frankly, the only reason I fought to get these four rogue images was because I thought that their chararts were lovely and that it'd be a waste to not recreate them. However, we don't know what they were at death and cannot make assumptions. Also, we've seen other cats that weren't warriors and yet had warrior names. Does Rainfur ring a bell? 13:06, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Continued discussion goes below the line.