Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Family Tree Icons
To what extent should we use these for a cat's description? (sounds like an essay question not my intention lol) We've already used these for Swiftbreeze and such. Another question is what if they've been consistently depicted in a certain way? (for example, Tawnypelt being tortie-and-white in every artwork of her)

like it was said in the discord, it should be all or nothing really, unless it's specifically contradicted. it is technically an official source after all. 15:54, March 2, 2019 (UTC)

We don't merge manga descriptions with book ones, so how's that any different tbh? If we take icons, but won't merge published mangas, then we run into the same dilemma. And if we take colors from the official tree, then we should be matching the shades to them as well, because it's a visual source and not a written one, otherwise we get into the combining tons of partials range. Tawnypelt is a notable example, she's pale and mottled in the books, but definitely not so in her art. Imo, we should be taking the official art because it's so consistent in said case, but if we do then that has to be something we do for others too. The website has also picked up a habit of... copying our errors lmao, even though we fix them it's like an accordion effect, and so when it eventually gets fixed it'll be for moot rip

I agree not to merge the descriptions. It should be seen as an alt tbh 17:26, 3/03/2019

My question is... who are we to decide what does or doesn't count? The family trees are officially released content from Working Partners. Why should it be seen as an alt? Because it "contradicts written text"? Because in the cases of Tawnypelt and Shellpaw, at least, it doesn't contradict anything- it adds onto their current description and is in no way, shape, or form a contradiction. In Tawnypelt's case, both "pale" and "mottled" were used less than the amount of times she is depicted as a "darker" tortie-and-white. Given that the designs are used across various pieces of media (The Ultimate Guide, Cats of the Clans, Battles of the Clans, and the family tree), I feel we shouldn't be regarding that instance as a mistake.

I could see merging the descriptions if it does not contradict what we have. But, that in and of itself should only apply to when a character is actually addressed as said description. For Tawnypelt, that wouldn't be merging, as she is depicted as a tortie. For others, it might be considered combining two sources that have nothing to do with one another.

Mapleshade has a good example: she was said to have a white tail while she is called ginger-and-white. We cannot and should not combine that with her tortie-and-white description, because she was not called tortie-and-white in the book where the mention occurred. Most of these can be used in some way, like changing Swiftbreeze's coloring, but we need to look at them with a close eye and probably even in a case-by-case basis to some extent. They shouldn't be added without discussing it completely here, though. ​​​​

I think I agree most with Troll. All or nothing.

I've been thinking for a bit of the family tree icons. If you look, I think it's supposed to represent their heads. Their shaped like cat's heads, the tabbies have the tabby pattern of a cat's head. So I'm not sure the description we take from them is supposed to be describing their heads or something (e.g. Tawnypelt has white on her head?)Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:29, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

As Jayie said in the chat, these icons weren't meant to be totally accurate and detailed descriptions, and things such as tabby markings and speckles likely wouldn't be fixed in the future to be completely true to what a cat is. They're not complete, and not always 100% accurate, then. I think we should be careful with what we do with these and some as alts might be more accurate - a tiny icon shouldn't determine a cat's listed appearance with the addition of a new color, when it's not necessarily reflecting the cat's whole description.

So you're saying it's like in book allegiances where it's only of a partial of their full description? So like Tawnypelt is a mottled tortoiseshell while her allegiances generally say tortoiseshell, while her family tree icon shows her as tortoiseshell-and-white?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:04, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

It's not a detailed description, but it's still a representation. Even though it's simplistic, I'm sure people can reasonably deduce a color and what the icon is supposed to represent, like Tawnypelt having white. It may be a case by case basis (like whether the official art also consistently depicts the cat in a certain way) but we still should take the icons into some consideration.

i think we should take some of the icons into consideration, but for the ones that totally contradict their descriptions (coughcough dustpelt) then no merging. it really depends tbh. because these are still official in a way.

Dustpelt's icon has been fixed. However, I think a mergable icon would be Tawnypelt's, as she is listed as tortie-and-white, and most of her official art, including her image for her own novella, depict her as white. I'd say it would be enough to merge white in her description. 16:35, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

is this going anywhere

I think the general consensus is we take the family tree icons as a partial (unless it completely contradicts of course).Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:12, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Known Leaders and Medicine Cat Apprentices
I've been in kahoots with some community members I follow on Twitter and they've brought up a concern that I share. On the Clan pages, there is not a list of known leaders, deputies, or medicine cats. While there is a rank list based upon chronological order/succession, this excludes certain cats from Codes of the Clans, such as Owlstar the second and Dovestar. While we do not know their succession or even descriptions, they're still leaders and deserve to be on the Clan page. I do not know if there are any deputies or medicine cats that share this, but those should be included as well. Maybe on the charts adding a row for them on the bottom and put succession unknown on there? Or maybe even doing a "ThunderClan Leader" category or something.

In addition, I've also been asked about medicine cat apprentices being included on the page. Their role in the Clan is different from normal apprentices, and they are tasked with the responsibility of healing the Clan almost immediately. Maybe not by succession, but maybe by who they trained under? Thoughts? 19:27, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

I too, have been thinking about the med cat apprentices for a while now, and I second the idea of giving them their own section. Also the idea of marking down who they trained under? Is awesome. On another note, doing a Thunderclan leader, Riverclan leader, Skyclan leader, etc, would be very helpful. Heck, even dividing up the other roles that that would be neat.Ghobsmacka (talk) 20:18, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Well, we do have this, which is listed on leader. We could start categorizing them as 'ThunderClan leaders' though and slap a DPL to auto-make a displayable list, though. Personally, a MCA column would fit best in the same ways deputies are listed next to their leaders, with a then separate chart for their own listings; more neat.

I've added a couple of options here for grins. I personally think adding a separate column in the medicine cats for their apprentices looks better imo. As for this, it still not a complete list. I think all of the leaders should be listed on the Clan pages because it makes more sense imo and it's all there in one place. 01:02, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I'm a tad bit confused with where this is going. Isn't this already implemented on the Clan article pages? Or is this a more in-depth list? What I'm seeing, Vec, is something that's already listed on pages like ThunderClan. We could always just modify that to include every known one, instead of having it done by known succession order... unless I'm completely missing the point here? It's late and I'm tired, I apologize. ​​​

Nah, it's okay Jayce. For the leaders, I'm just pointing out that the list of leaders we already have does not include everyone...mostly just Owlstar the 2nd and Dovestar of RiverClan. They aren't included in the list because we don't know the order of succession; Leafpool just casually mentioned them in one of the last chapters of Code of the Clans. I'm pointing out they should be included because they are still leaders of ThunderClan...and because members of the community over the years have wanted the full list; I can think back to my old deviantart days when people grumbled about this.

I think we should keep the known order of succession, since that is also very important, and just add a footnote at the bottom of the leader chart saying something like "Owlstar (CotC)'s order of succession is unknown but he appears in Code of the Clans." I just want them mentioned haha. And the mca to the lists too maybe. 12:47, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Well you could always try, instead of succession or since its pretty much shown in the books. You could always do it by books, since those seem to have an order? 13:43, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah sure we can tack it on the end. Any other comments?

Victims killed/Deaths caused
So I know this idea has been floating around for months, started online, and I know a few people on here have drafted it/mentioned it. Basically, for the cats it warrants, to list what cats they killed, where and how (if known) and whether it was a group effort with someone. Would slot in nicely with the new format; more useful info and such, imo, and I'd certainly be interested in tallies of some of the more murderous ones like Broken and Tiger. Thoughts?

I think this would be extremely useful, I did something like it here. Personally I think it'd be neat/useful to list the kill list of some cats. Whether it be directly/indirectly caused, though some cats (eg. Hawkwing) have only killed one cat, so that list would be rather short.

02:53, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Yesss give us the kill count. 02:55, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Would be a good addition. 03:00, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

Would this also include indirect killings? (For example, Bluefur bringing Mosskit in a blizzard, Brokenstar allowing apprentices under 6 moons old to fight, therefore is responsible for Badgerfang and Mosspaw's deaths) It may be biased in a way since there would be a debate on intention and that stuff.

I think this would be awesome! But it should only be direct kills. I think that could be very managable  04:22, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

I think it should only be direct kills, because otherwise we have tons of things popping up and it would get kinda messy. Also there's the bias like Fox said, and the fact that they didn't really cause the deaths. (in a way they did but they're not really responsible for said cat dying)

I think it would depend on the circumstances? Eg.a cat wounds another cat, that cat doesn't die at first, but their wound worsens/gets infected and dies from that. The first cat would have caused their death, but didn't necessarily kill them. You could also argue that Tigerstar contributed to Stonefur's death in The Darkest Hour since he's the one who gave the order to kill him, although it was Blackfoot who actually killed him.

19:39, March 23, 2019 (UTC)

But Tigerstar's case is different: he didn't directly cause the kill. I'd say the first example is good because technically they still caused the kill; they wounded the other cat fatally. Tigerstar, on the other hand, didn't even touch Stonefur. Blackfoot did it all for him.

Could I see an example of this in use before I give an input? Thunder, the example you linked seems to have been deleted. I'm interested in this, but I'd like to see how it would look before I comment further. ​​​​

Here, I had moved it earlier. Should work now.

08:08, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Should Brokenstar's apprenticing cats before 6 moons be indirect though since its his fault that cats so young were apprenticed? 13:44, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, he was also the one who gave the orders (for both kits and apprentices) to use brutal fighting tactics, essentially fighting to the death for "training". I would think that would be a direct cause.

01:04, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

That is indeed a direct cause. Stick would get one too because he accidently slayed his own daughter (rip Red). 22:24, March 29, 2019 (UTC)

So would the cat need to directly or intentionally cause the death? Fireheart chases Whitethroat blindly onto the Thunderpath and gets him hit by a car, he is responsible for his death, but he didn't do the deed and he didn't mean for it to happen. Or when Greystripe accidentally kills Clawface and Whiteclaw, both cases were results of fights and he didn't mean to do it, and technically with Whiteclaw the cause of death was likely drowning rather than anything Greystripe actually did to him.

RageSnake (talk) 01:39, April 4, 2019 (UTC)

Those would be listed as accidental or indirectly caused, just like Stick killing Red. 16:32, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

Pretty much unanimous on that we should have them in some form. Let's start with direct and we can bring up others to see whether they count - and we do have cite removal forum for those that get added erroneously. Any other comments before implementation?

offical art
when i was looking at the various covers of the books i noticed some cats should get their offical art like for example on the alternate chinese language edition mosskit is on the cover, should this count as offfical art or not (im bad at explaing things) Willowstep12 (talk) 13:01, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

do you have author proof that is who are on these covers? if so, i'm all for adding the art from different countries 13:02, 3/27/2019

no :(Willowstep12 (talk) 16:37, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

no proof, not implementing *shrug* 17:17, 3/27/2019

Yeah, no cite, no inclusion. Although, I can see about getting some references because german wwiki more likely than not has a bunch, if we agree on adding ones with proof

I think that would be super interesting to include the art from the different language editions for any that are possible! Though finding cites for them might be a bit tricky.

I think it's a great idea, as long as we have proof. At the very least they should be over at PB's pages anyway.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  10:25, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Any other comments?

family relations, trivia, and ancestry
so about the family sections; some of them are REALLY long, and I came up with the idea of pruning the cousins to 2nd/possibly 3rd cousins at the most, since by that point they're barely related enough for it to matter. the same would apply for ancestry, like a cat with skyclan blood doesn't matter unless it's a fairly close relation/is important to their character, and could be removed from the trivia as well. maybe like grandparents and such at most? what does everyone think? 20:52, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

another idea is maybe changing up the cousins section slightly so it's first and second cousins as their own listing, so it's easier to differentiate and we won't have to worry about filtering other cousins out after that. 20:55, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

I honestly don't think we should remove any family members, and we have already been doing well in making it easier for pages to load (the /family pages, 'see more', etc) If the cousin area is getting too long for some characters, I agree it would be good to split it up more.Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:09, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

the thing is even in warriors relations don't matter so much except for the immediate family, and we only hve this listed so it's somewhat easier to keep track of. if a cat is like a 7th cousin to someone, is anything really lost by removing them? they're a distant relation at that point and all it really does is serve to clog up the page, and if you can't tell what relation a cat is within a couple minutes, is there any point even then? it's not helping anyone. 21:15, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

I honestly don't think we need to list every cousin a cat has; not only does it get redundant in some cases, there comes a time where they actually start to not really be family. The third or fourth cousins really aren't considered family and in some cases, it's just messy. These lists are getting extremely cluttered and messy and hard to keep track of.

I would also like to suggest breaking down the family trees a little more as well and have them focusing on said cat instead of their ENTIRE line. For example, why should a cat like Lionblaze just use Windstar's tree when he can have a tree more focused on him and a bit smaller and easier to edit? A tree doesn't need to focus on an entire line and should focus on said character. ​

Concurring with Skye^^

Alright I'm starting to get what you mean. Just list up to 3rd/4th cousins? That makes sense.

So with the family trees thing, you're saying we should have (for big families), a family tree for every cat/litter, that only shows the family that is listed on their page? I can see that working. That would mean a lot more family pages templates to deal with but if we're okay with that, I could make it work.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:32, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Oh gosh I'm having so much trouble with updating family trees yeah I think we need to put a cap on how many family members we place on family trees and on pages. I had a thought about it, and I think we can use where cats have acknowledged who is (and who isn't kin).

To make it short, Firestar is acknowledged to be Dovewing's kin, so we would include great-great-uncle/great grand-nieces. I think going just 1 above (their parents) is the furthest to go. Now Lionblaze and Tigerstar (the 1st one) are actually kin but it is not acknowledged in the books. Tigerstar is the kit of Lionblaze's great-great aunt, so I'd say show great-great aunt/uncles, but not their siblings.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:27, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Parents, cite validity
Alright, so, this mainly applies to Darkstripe and Sandstorm. Both of them have cited parents, Darkstripe's supposedly being Willowpelt and Tawnyspots, and Sandstorm's being Redtail and Brindleface. I want to contest both of these cites, due to the fact that Redtail's Debt was released and I feel it doesn't support either one of these cats having those parents.

In the case of Willowpelt and Tawnyspots, the latter is dead before Willowpelt is even made a warrior, and it's never touched up or even implied that Willowpelt could have been pregnant. While the family tree lists this pairing, I feel they copied our information, taken from Vicky's Facebook nine years ago. It's pretty clear this is no longer the case, and Redtail's Debt, again, heavily supports this.

For Sandstorm's case, the novella, once more, does not even touch upon this subject. Again, while the family tree supposedly has this information, it's never touched upon once within the story. If Redtail is supposedly Sandstorm's father, this information would have more than likely have been said in his novella, and it's not, despite the fact that this time period is shown, due to Ravenpaw's appearance and whatnot.

tldr; I'm calling into question the validity of BOTH Willow/Tawny and Brindle/Red due to using very outdated citations as proof, the information within (and lacking) Redtail's Debt, and the insane amount of errors within the website's family tree. ​​

as much as i hate to admit it...im gonna have to agree with the statements above. theres nothing in RD that even implies redtail was mates with anyone, and yeah tawnyspots kinda...died before willowpelt was a warrior <span style="">01:04, 4/15/2019

Yeah, this should be removed. WillowXTawny has many problems, including Willowpaw being an apprentice and no way possible to bear kits, while Tawnyspots is sick and dies. As for RedXBrindle, there is completely no evidence in the books that suggests Sandstorm's parents. The Warriors app is also very outdated, so at some point the Erins may have changed their mind. These should be removed. 21:52, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with WillowXTawny. I'm not so sure with Redtail. The focus of that novella was Redtail and Tigerclaw, the apprentices of Sandpaw's generation were barely featured. We got three cites of it as well (Vicky/warriors app/family tree) so I'm not 100% sure of getting rid of it.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:38, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

Both should go. Tawny/Willow is definitely just not physically plausible, given his death and her apprenticeship, and lack of all canonicity. I'm inclined to agree with above on Redtail/Brindle as well - no proof in books at all. There's really none, the tree is full of errors, the post we pull it from is faulty, Vicky's backtracking...the app is questionable in validity as it hails from the same era as the old site. So, for me, remove that as well.

tawny and willow should go, but i dont know about redtail. nothings actually contradicting it, it was just glossed over in a rush o get to......the mistake. 19:30, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

mistystar
so in lost stars mistystar was directly called pale blue-grey. i know we had a discussion about this just before but this calls it into question again. do we go with kates cite saying shes just regular or with this? 19:25, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Here's the exact cite for reference: “That’s true,” Mistystar responded, her pale blue-gray pelt glimmering among the branches of the Great Oak. (chapter 20)

I don't think we can ignore this. It's a book cite from a very recent book and very directly says she is pale blue-grey.

Note that Cherith wrote this book, so perhaps she and Kate have different ideas on what Mistystar looks like? Who knows.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:19, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Family Trees
I was getting too focused on family trees on the other topic so I decided to move it here.

There's been talk of having smaller family trees that are more focused on individual cats rather than lines. This makes sense for cats like Sandgorse. He only has three family members, but has been given a very large tree. If we are happy to take on managing more trees, I can easily create new smaller trees from the already existing bigger trees.

For certain cats however, we need to think about who to include on their trees. Lionblaze for example has a humongous number of family members, and cats like Flashnose have quite a lot of descendants, so we need to decide which family members to add to their tree.

I've done a little experimenting, and have made a draft for a Lionblaze/Jayfeather/Hollyleaf tree. Basically, I've shown their immediately family, grandkits/grandnieces/nephews (as well as half-nieces), aunts/uncles, first cousins & their kits, grandparents, grand-aunts/uncles and great-grandparents. A little bit messy in this example as Firestar/Sandstorm have a lot of siblings, but it works.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:24, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Wrenkit's siblings
(minor spoilers for Lost Stars)

There's some confusion regarding the status of Wrenkit's deceased siblings. They definitely were at one point ghost cats, but it's confusing regarding if they then went to StarClan. Here's the cite:

I thought she’d like to know that they were still close to her, watching over her, until they left to go to StarClan. -Tree (chapter 2)

I'm a little unsure if Tree is actually confirming they did indeed go to StarClan. Like, did they actually go to StarClan, or did one day he notice they have disappeared which must mean they have gone to StarClan, but he is actually just assuming? What I'm kinda getting from what he is saying is that, but Tree can be confusing so I might not be interpreting it right.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:24, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

i see that as tree saying they're ghost cats right now <span style="">12:55, 4/20/2019

Driftkit's official art
Right now, we don't have a description of Driftkit, but we do have an official art of him. I'm wondering if like manga only characters, we should take their official art as their official descriptions, since we have nothing else to go by.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:40, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we should. Other official arts are a depiction of a cat's description. From the picture, it appears he is a gray tom with darker spots. 12:50, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

Hm yeah in this case sure.