Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Unknown Residence Blank
Are we changing the meaning of this blank to apply to everyone, then? Because when we made these blanks, they were originally only meant for the ghost cats/purgatory cats from A Vision of Shadows (including more recently: Pebbleshine and Ashfoot). We need to have that discussion before anything is posted on the approval page, because the blanks as we currently have them don't apply to anything other than the ghost cats (which we'll need to change the file names for those ANYWAYS, depending on the outcome here), so if we start making them for characters like Jake, Ravenpaw, ect, we'll need to officially change the intent behind these blanks. ​​​​

I honestly didn't originally know that they were solely for the AVoS ghosts, I saw Riin reserve one and figured they were meant for other characters as well. I don't see why they couldn't have the intent for other characters. They are named Unknown Residence and since Jake, Scourge, etc. have the affiliation of that it would make sense to give them that as well. Minkclaw Winter is coming. 04:09, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

That's my bad for reserving early, whoops. But I do agree they should be considered "unknown residence" as well. 04:11, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I'm personally of the mindset that the unknown residence blanks should be reserved for any unknown afterlife. The blanks were created because the "rank" holds significance like StarClan and the Dark Forest. It's a destination. Cat purgatory. A place for good kittypets. All afterlives. Neither StarClan or Dark Forest, but somewhere present and mingling around. As for the actual "unknown residence" cats...I don't think they should have this blank. For the infobox, I'm all for it. But as a rank, I disagree. The thing with an "unknown residence" is just that. It's unknown. We don't know where the cat ended up. They died, but they didn't end up in StarClan, the Dark Forest, or some form of alternative afterlife. No one knows, hence why it's "unknown".

However, some of them, such as Tom, Jake and maybe Ravenpaw (might have to look at the cite closely), could have this blank imo. They've been confirmed with the cites (again, might have to double check) to be present in some sort of afterlife. I think for the sanity of creating blanks with one or two cats in it, those three aforementioned should get the "unknown residence blank". Cats like Tigerstar, Spottedleaf, and Scourge should not have one since they just died (again) and went nowhere...somewhere unknown even to the authors. That's just my interpretation.

tl;dr cats who have been confirmed to be in some sort of afterlife that's not StarClan or the Dark Forest, should get it, but cats who died and the authors have confirmed they have no died and don't know where they went, should not get it. 04:23, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

use the blanks for both, just rename purgatory cats to ghost.png. 04:25, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I don't think Jake and Ravenpaw and them should have these blanks... I think they were meant solely for the cats who were stuck between the real world and the afterlife. Not knowing a cat's residence vs. a cat actually being described with no true residence are completely different things. So I think they should just be for the ghost cats.  JOLLY  FIRE  06:00, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

Scourge is the only cat to be confirmed not in any official residence I think, (though Vicky's comment was incredibly vague) while, Ravenpaw and Tom have been confirmed to be in an else where residency. To expand on my comment from before, I believe cats with unknown residencies should get the blank since StarClan, the DF and soon Endless Hunting will have afterlife blanks, I think it'd be fair to give cats with a confirmed sort of afterlife blanks as well. I agree with David's idea of just renaming the files/titles but using the blanks for both, since they're all described to be in some form of afterlife. 06:19, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with them getting the blank, we can rename the files like was suggested above. 16:08, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I also agree with them using this blank. 16:26 Sun Nov 25

Just to be clear (since this is something I was confused with at first reading some of the comments), this would not be for typical deceased Clan cats who which we don't have a confirmation of a post-death residence, correct? (such as Briarlight) The general idea here seems to be for those who have some kind of afterlife confirmed- I want to make sure everyone's on the same page here, so we don't get more arguments in the future. ​​

I agree, I think it'd only be okay with cats to have a confirmed unknown residence much like Ravenpaw, Scourge, Jake, etc. With a cite that is. Minkclaw Winter is coming. 20:20, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

Yes this is purely for cats who have been confirmed on their afterlives, so Jake, Scourge, Tom and Ravenpaw. Cats like Briarlight and others who have not been confirmed to have an afterlife should not get a blank since we don't know where they are and their is no confirmation of where they are in general. Cats who have a confirmed and specified afterlife should get a blank and cats who have died but have not been seen/confirmed in an afterlife should not. Not knowing where they are and them being in different afterlives are two different things, in my opinion. 20:41, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

What about Tigerstar, Spottedleaf, Brokenstar, and Hawkfrost? 20:47, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

They're just gone. The cats that died twice will never make another appearance and have no residence.  JOLLY  FIRE  20:48, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

That comes in question, should there be a no residence blank? 20:48, November 25, 2018 (UTC)

I think that cats that die 2 times should get a blank, and cats with unknown residence should get one, and Scourge... he... uh... is gone. IDK what to do about him. ~RAR =^.,.^= Im spoopy kittan! 02:19, November 26, 2018 (UTC)

Well all Vicky said about Scourge is that because he doesn't believe in StarClan, then he's not in the Dark Forest or any Clan-affiliated afterlife. I think Scourge can be up to interpretation. ​​​​

I don't think there should be a "no residence" blank, since how can we give a blank to a cat that doesn't exist anymore? It's like Hawkey and others said; they're poof, gone. They don't exist anymore. It is different from an afterlife because some cats still exist after they died. Cats such as Tigerstar and Spottedleaf don't. On the topic of Scourge, I don't think he qualifies for this blank in the definition we're going by. Looking at the Erin Hunter Chat 3 (where the cite says it is), Scourge has no concept of afterlife, and he didn't go to the Dark Forest or StarClan...so my interpretation is that Scourge is just like Tigerstar and Spottedleaf: gone. He doesn't exist anymore. He didn't believe in any afterlife, so he didn't go to any after he died. 02:40, November 26, 2018 (UTC)

The cats that died twice like Spottedleaf among others wouldn't get a blank, I think it was said that they'd keep their last image blanks? Minkclaw Winter is coming. 02:51, November 26, 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure. I do agree with that, since they have no affiliation whereas cats with an afterlife technically do. I think only Jake, Tom and Ravenpaw should get an unknown blank since they at least have been confirmed to be in an afterlife, just an unspecified one. ​​​​

I disagree with using the blank for cats like Jake, Tom, and Ravenpaw. Cats like Jake and Ravenpaw are actually in the afterlife, in the skies, and can and have visited StarClan even though they themselves live in different skies, as opposed to the ghost cats, who are trapped on earth until whatever unsettled business they have is taken care of and then they join StarClan. I really don't think we should equate these two situations, which to me seem rather different, by using the same blank. 21:27, December 1, 2018 (UTC)

If Jake has visited StarClan, shouldn't there be a reference/citation that he has thus giving him the StarClan cat rank? I don't see why they can't have both as well. Minkclaw Winter is coming. 00:02, December 3, 2018 (UTC)

I think the cite was only that Tallstar travels outside of StarClan to visit Jake iirc. ​​​​

^ Cite here. It only mentions Tallstar visiting Jake outside of StarClan, rather than Jake going into StarClan. ​​​​

Any more comments? 01:24, December 14, 2018 (UTC)

So what about Jake, Tom, and Ravenpaw? Do we think they should get an unknown blank or not? 05:44, December 16, 2018 (UTC)

I think those three should since they are confirmed to reside somewhere, but not any other character with no confirmed residence. 17:43, December 16, 2018 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with Ivy here - those three aren't ghost cats, and our unknown blank was created for ghost cats. Imo, that ghost-state of being half-stuck is an actual rank in and of itself. Raven and the others should have a different blank depicting that they have a confirmed afterlife that isn't ghost, StarClan, ToEH, or any of the others like DF. 17:54, December 16, 2018 (UTC)

Should we rename our existing blank to be "ghost" to avoid confusion and then make a new blank for actual unknown residences? —​​​​

I think we should, because it's not strictly an unknown residence--we know where they reside, just not the name of said residence. Plus, they don't exactly walk the same skies as Jake and the others.

Let's rename it then. I read the comments ^^ and I think Scourge should have an Unknown Blank. Since he's dead, and he doesn't have anywhere to reside to, he should be unknown. -- Silverfur   skz  [ 05:20, 12/25/2018 ]

i dont agree with scourge because the way it was worded "Nope, because he doesn't believe in StarClan, and therefore has no concept of any sort of after life." is basically saying he didn't go anywhere, somewhat along the line of currently faded cats. 22:17, December 25, 2018 (UTC)

Any other comments? I also support the renaming ~

Oh look i did forget to comment. I support renaming and giving them their own blank. 03:52, January 13, 2019 (UTC)

Late, but I support the same. Scourge shouldn't get a blank though, it should just be Jake, Tom and anyone else I might be missing. I also wanna clarify - this is only going towards the Jake cats where they are in an afterlife but not in one that we know of/thats been revealed correct? I remember some talk of whether this would apply to dead cats who aren't yet confirmed in an afterlife (like Reedshine, Briarlight, Appledusk) Cats who are dead but have not been given a direct afterlife. I personally disagree with the idea of giving them an "unknown res" blank since some aren't even shown dead, but I'm curious on others' opinion on that. —

Kits, Warriors, Leaders, and Kittypets
Since the kittypet blanks are already posted, the leader blanks will be posted, and the votes for both the kits and warriors already up, shouldn't we just halt work on all four blanks? It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever to continue to work on those four blanks, given two of them already have blanks set, and the other two are in the process of having one selected. If we were still voting on redoing them or not, I could see not halting it.... but everything's been approved and we're already in the later stages. I get finding something to do, but posting an image that'll just be redone soon is a huge waste of time imo. ​

It would be much easier to stop, too. Each time they go up means that it is a chance they do not go on the OA lists.

For that, if someone reading recently got a warrior/kit/kittypet/leader image approved, chances are it is not on the OA list. Please put them here if you do have it: Warrior OAs, Kittypet OAs, Leader OAs, and Kit OAs. These are places to reserve images you are the OA of, and if someone reserves it while not seeing you are the OA of it because it is on the list, well... 17:27, January 20, 2019 (UTC)

^I'm in favor of halting artwork for those blanks. We've had lulls before, and it won't be long until the kittypet and leader blanks will be approved. 19:52, January 20, 2019 (UTC)

We should officially halt production, yeah. I mean most people have been not doing them anyways because common sense, but the redoes are so imminent now that should be formal.

Alright any other comments before we formally close them? We can leave a note at the top of the /List page and use collapsibles to hide all of the warrior minor cats that are stacking up.

Kits and warriors
So there have been some comments flying around on how we should approach the kit/warrior redo. I have a few questions I want to ask.

Question 1: How should we proceed with whoever wins to put up their blanks? Should we:

A.) Wait until the kittypet / leader rush is over and have someone tell the winner to put the blanks up, and after the blanks are approved, start doing the art

B.) Same as above, but wait for both kit and warrior to be approved and then start art

C.) After the votes ends, instantly have whoever wins put their blanks for approval, but once they are approved, neither are in use yet until announced

Thoughts on that?

Question 2: How do we proceed with making the art when they get approved? The kits + warriors have over 1300 images. Do we:

A.) Go alphabetical with just one group (such as kit/warrior). Possibly split this up into sections such as A-D, E-J, K-N, O-R, S-U, V-Z, and when that is finished, do the other group and split it up in the same way.

B.) Go by Clan with one group (kit or warrior) splitting up by ThunderClan/RiverClan/WindClan/ShadowClan/SkyClan/Unknown, and when that is finished, do the other group and split it up in the same way.

C.) Same as A, but having both kit and warrior at the same time. This would need to be in place after both blanks are approved.

D.) Same as B, but once again, both kit and warrior.

Question 3:

How many images should one have?

A.) Two images, both free for game for everyone.

B.) Extend image limit to 3 for just warriors (or apprentices). If this route is chosen, it would have to be discussed on what images you can have, whether two OA, one OA, all free game, etc.

C.) Two images, but one of them must be an original OA if you have one (see here and here) and the other can be what you wish as long as someone else has not reserved it.

D.) Two images, but both must be the ones you are an OA of.

Question 4:

When should we do it? I brought it up in an earlier point, but when exactly?

A.) After kittypet and leader

B.) After minor characters

C.) After Lost Stars

D.) Before Lost Stars

F.) Some distant time in the future, can be decided in a separate discussion later

Please feel free to voice other opinions as well, these are not the only answers. These are just several questions that need to be addressed before anything starts. 17:17, January 20, 2019 (UTC)

I would just like to add my own thoughts - personally, for Question 1 I would like to go with C, 2 I would like A, 3 I also prefer C, and 4 I think F, so we can have a discussion when we all want to start. 17:36, January 20, 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, one more addition. If the discussion page gets too messy, we could always put it up to a vote too. 17:38, January 20, 2019 (UTC)

Mine would be C, D, B, A.

Mine is C, B, D, A Malina457 (talk) 19:49, January 20, 2019 (UTC)malina

Mine would be C for the first one. A or B for the second one; I don't think it's a good idea to have both blank redo art at the same time. I can see that getting very chaotic with people scrambling to get the ones they want done. One at a time would make things a bit calmer imo. C for the third one; I think making the OAs reserve at least one of their artwork would prevent anyone from claiming too many. For the fourth one, I'll go with F, but definitely after the kittypet and leader redos. 19:51, January 20, 2019 (UTC)

A, and then for the second, I would actually rather do it in order of books. Lost Stars and the novellas are coming soon, and we should start doing warriors/kits for those books first, then implement them by series/books. Maybe whenever they get/first appear with their warrior name. Then B and C for the last two questions. I have no idea if this makes sense, but we should get the new book chararts out of the way first. —​

1) C

2) C

3) D And I'd like to say that I don't think it's fair if people can take original images AND new ones at the same time, because that would give them an unfair advantage in terms of the number of images they can take (if that makes sense?) What I'm saying is some people have a lot of these images pre-reserved and thus would have claim to more images in general. I'd say people should finish the images that they are the OA of before they can claim new ones.

4) A

1) A.

2) C.

3) D.

4) A 01:26, January 22, 2019 (UTC)

A, D, B, A. 01:55, January 22, 2019 (UTC)

B, A, C, A -- Silverfur's     starry     paws      ~    10:15, January 22, 2019 (UTC)

A, D, B, A. I feel if we hold off and discuss it, though, it'll just keep getting put off, since discussions here often die due to lack of interest.

C, C, C, F 14:21, January 25, 2019 (UTC)

My personal take on this:

1. C - yes the lulls can last for a while, but approving blanks takes a lot longer than approving chararts, so if we get them up we'll have less work to do come lulls.

2. A or B - split it up by Clan or alphabetical order, I don't care. I feel like if we do both at once the approval page is gonna get a bit hectic. Organizing it by rank feels a bit more controllable imo.

3. B - Not everyone has a warrior, and it would be unfair for others to get tons of warriors to work on while some (myself included) get only a couple or even none at all. However the OAs obviously get their images, because it would be unfair for someone else to take it.

4. No opinion.

c, a, d, a, i think. I always get lost trying to read all this. 01:12, January 27, 2019 (UTC)

Just wanted to let people know that when answering the splitting it up, the list is already there all in alphabetical order, and it would take hours to split it up into Clans. So I change my mind to doing it in alphabetical order, unless everyone wants to pitch in and make a list of warriors and kits in Clan order. 01:36, January 27, 2019 (UTC)

With question 1 having a consensus in answer C, that will proceed. 08:27, January 27, 2019 (UTC)

Star brings up a really good point - I don't think it'd be fair that people can only reserve images they are the OA of. I know for myself speaking, I have one claim in total for both kits and warriors, and if we put this extension up for only OA images, some people are going to get nothing or very little whereas some people with get dozens of images. —

Kits
Figured I would say this before we start redoing all the kit images. Anyways, I think it would be a good idea to add kit images to all the cats in the series, even if it has been confirmed. I mean, every cat starts out as one. Yes, I know this would mean a lot more images, and we already have enough on our hands, but don't you think it's kind of true? I mean, we can just put Kit: Unknown for everyone, since its impossible for a cat to appear full-grown out of thin air.

01:21, January 22, 2019 (UTC)

I can't argue with "it's impossible for a cat to appear full grown," but with this logic we could apply it also to every Clan cat getting an apprentice image, and so on. While you're right, I don't think it's practical nor necessary. Our rule has to always been to go off of what's in the books and what's cited with evidence. Gonna have to disagree with doing this. —​​​​

I also disagree. Unless they appear as a kit or are talked about as a kit and have a cite for being a kit, they should not have a kit image. 01:29, January 22, 2019 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that this is a huge unnecessary work load. There are 1,267 characters cited in Warriors, and we're already doing over 600 kit images. We shouldn't add 600 more with no textual basis. —​​​​

I disagree because of the workload. There's just too many images to redo already, and doubling the workload isn't a good idea. I will say that your logic is indeed valid, but there's just too much to do.

Hmm I'll disagree due to workload, but also because I think PC needs to green light stuff like this before it reaches PCA. If PC ever decided to list every cat with Kit: Unknown, then it'd come here after. Which could happen, because unlike many other ranks, every cat is a kit regardless of affiliation. But, not now, since we've got so much to do.

^ We've always gone with what is explicitly stated in the books even if it goes against logic, and there's already a plethora of chararts to make. 02:29, January 22, 2019 (UTC)

Definitely not needed at this point of time, as others have stated. Fast forward to after we make ALL the new images and we are bored, maybe we can consider this again. But I really, really don't want to add 600 more images to an already massive load. 02:36, January 22, 2019 (UTC)

It's not the same with apprentice images for clan cats, since it's absolutely possible for a clan cat to be in the clan or be literally any rank without having been an apprentice. Millie joined as a warrior without being apprentice. Early medicine cats would have gotten their rank without being apprentices I believe. So we couldn't assume anything with them. However the logic for kits makes sense, since the magic present in the books definitely never reached the level of creating a fully grown cat out of thin air. Every cat has to have been a kit at some point, and since it's not at all tied to affiliation it would make sense for every cat to have it. The situation seems pretty similar to that of queen images, which I believe we do for every cat with confirmed offspring right? It doesn't seem like a good time to add on that work load though, and PC would probably need to agree with adding it to the charcats too. Maybe it can kind of be "queued" if it's agreed on? Like how (I think) we're doing images in batches right now? Then it doesn't affect the current work load and nobody would have to scramble extra to get images they want or anything like that.

i mean, i completely agree that we can make the assumption that they are kits, but i just feel like its kinda unnecessary to do so?? like the point of the images is to represent the stages of development of each character for what was mentioned in the books, and if they werent mentioned to be a kit in the book then why an image? 13:40, January 23, 2019 (UTC)

we have no proof of thi ever happening, but maby when they were born, they were desided to be a warrior, probably never happened, but its like a kit immage, we dont know. and we have as much proof of some cats being labled as kits, than as warriors. Im Am TrasH =^.,.^= 00:56, January 24, 2019 (UTC)

I agree that it's unnecessary, given that there's no need for representing characters in a rank that they were never shown/mentioned to be in.

Hmm... this is just a thought, but considering cats get queen images if they have children (regardless of whether they appeared while they were pregnant), shouldn't the same kind of apply to kits then? So if that were the case, not every character would get kit image, but those that have cited mothers would, since that, to some extent, implies them being a newborn at one point (at least to the same extent that having children implies being pregnant). Personally I still kind of think that it makes more sense to just have kit images for all cats because of the nature of the rank, but I was just thinking about the queen images and figured I'd mention this.

I’m pretty sure we already do that for cats with cited mothers and an Unknown for those^^

Wait really? Sorry my bad, I didn't realize that had changed since I was last active.

Halftail's Mistake
Okay, so I was talking with another user as I had questions on but since he was mistakenly said to have a stump for a tail, I wasn't sure if he had an alt prior to this or not since this was said while he was an elder in Into the Wild. If he doesn't I think he should get it as there's a difference between having a stumpy tail and having half a tail. Thoughts? 10:33, January 25, 2019 (UTC)

There's a big difference? Halftail having a stump would be like Berrynose. -- Silverfur's     starry     paws      ~    13:30, January 25, 2019 (UTC)

No, i honestly think this is just a partial. Unless its been said like, 5-10 times i really dont think an alt for a stump is necessary <span style="">14:44, 01/25/2019

Kinda feel like this is just fishing for things to do at this point... he might also have a short tail to begin with; we don't know. Context is everything and I really don't think this is necessary. It's probably just an oversight.

No. 05:38, January 26, 2019 (UTC)

I don't quite understand how it won't get an alt. It was a mistake made in the book and from what I've seen of other characters they get an alt. So how is this any different? 12:02, January 26, 2019 (UTC)

being described with a full tail vs a partial isnt the same as a partial tail being described as a partial tail its pointless 12:18, January 26, 2019 (UTC)

Ah okay, that makes more sense. Thanks for explaing. 13:54, January 26, 2019 (UTC)

Family Tree
Im sorry if this already has been planed out, but should we have somthing for the family trees? Like a place for family tree art like we do official art? Like... a place for the things on the official site for warriors? Im sorry if this makes no sence, if you want, I can try to explain in more detail.<font face="Tempus Sans ITC">❈ Love is Love, forever! ❈ =^.,.^= 20:32, January 26, 2019 (UTC)

do you mean like the coloured little icons? 21:38, January 26, 2019 (UTC)

yes.<font face="Tempus Sans ITC">❈ Love is Love, forever! ❈ =^.,.^= 23:36, January 26, 2019 (UTC)

We are having the discussion to create alternate images. 23:43, January 26, 2019 (UTC)

not that realy... I dont even know exactly what im thinking, but like a... okay, so there is the official art section on the character boxes, right? maby a third thing like that is for the Warriors Website art?<font color="#ffffff"> <font face="Tempus Sans ITC">❈ Love is Love, forever! ❈ =^.,.^= 23:51, January 26, 2019 (UTC)