Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Foster Family Tree
So I think someone mentioned above we used to display foster family relations on trees. I'm wondering if we want to try to do that again. I'm pondering the different options on doing this, but I do believe it is possible for every character with a foster relation. So, what does everyone think?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:11, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Would it be a whole different tree or will it be added on the orginal tree? 02:21, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

That's part of this discussion.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  02:41, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

It would be more reasonable to make to separate trees, since there's situations were there's only one foster parent and it would be a little weird to have a stray boxes (the ones with the names in it) floating around, if you get what I'm saying. 02:45, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

I'm alright with it, but it does need to have already been cited on their articles first. Like, Lilyheart is Violetpaw's foster mother when she came to ThunderClan initially, but Snowbush wasn't their foster father, since there's nothing stating that nor did we see it in the books.

I did test family trees of Thunderstar foster family. A separate tree does seem to be best. (especially since I cannot figure out how to do those special dotted line that Brokenstar once had on Runningnose's tree :/) It'll be good if we are doing separate foster trees to put the different trees under different subheadings, like " ====Genetic Tree==== " and " ====Foster Tree==== "Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:48, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  02:00, June 16, 2017 (UTC)

I like those. =O The only question I have is this: will it be indicated somewhere on the template's page itself that the lines on certain boxes represent a fostered connection, not a direct blood connection? Like with Thunderstar, Acorn Fur, and Lightning Tail, for example.

I really tried hard to find a line, but the family tree template only supports the solid and dashed lines we already use. I went through every key on my keyboard and there is only two dotted lines keys that we could use, but those aren't enough to make a basic tree. We could do the mate lines, but we can also try the Template Chart, which is literally almost the same except you swap out 'familytree' with 'chart'. There is also some changes when it comes to keys for lines, but these are really uncommon lines we use.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:59, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

What does everyone want to do? Do the normal family tree lines, or have those trees switch to chart template (which is practically the same as the family tree template) and use the dotted lines for foster links.Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:32, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

I'm cool with using the chart template - I've used it before, and it's pretty easy to work with so why not :)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  03:58, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

I would agree that the charart template is easy to work with and should be used in this situation.

I really like this idea. However, I think if we’re going to use it and use the chart template to do the dashed lines for foster relations (which I support, for sure), I think we should put the foster relations on the same tree as the genetic relations and differentiate them with the solid vs. dashed lines. Most genetic families only have one or two foster relations in them, so the foster tree would just be the exact same tree with a very slight modification, which would be really repetitive and unnecessary imo. 17:52, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure on that either. I mean, I did a test with Thunderstar and it could just become too difficult and messy. It'll just be easier to make foster trees.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:03, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, including foster siblings and/or parents in a tree is really cluttery and messy, given how large some of the trees are. I don't think it's a bad idea, but I also don't think anything would really benefit from this. We have them in the kin section, that should honestly be good enough <span style="">18:21, 7/25/2017

Honestly, I have to agree with Winter. I see what you mean about the trees getting too cluttery if you add foster relations to them (most are already really crowded anyway), but at the same time I still think having a whole new tree to represent one or two foster relationships seems unnecessary. Honestly, since the foster relationships are in the kin section, I don't think they really need to be represented on the trees. 16:08, August 2, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  01:58, August 12, 2017 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea for having foster family trees. Even though everything is so cluttered, there can always be a separated link or add some space more below the real family tree. <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 02:13, August 12, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:54, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

I also think it would be a good idea to have separate foster family trees. I have recently been playing around with family trees on my userpage and it gets really cluttered really fast, so I don't think having foster and genetic family in the same tree is a good idea. -- 15:40, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but it doesn't seem worth it to create whole, separate family trees for the purpose of displaying one foster relationship or something... and if you tried to show more than that, you'd end up having to recreate the genetic tree and it would end up just as cluttered. Honestly, we already have foster relationships listed in the kin section, and that should be sufficient. 15:53, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

Have we decided what we're doing with this?

DF Cats
This will be very controversial because the answer I am going to get is, "Su said this, so it is confirmed." Except please bear with me because although I am well aware Su said this, Vicky never confirmed it. While keeping this in mind, there was a point in time that Vicky had specifically said that Su was her helper for answering questions, and she was not canonical. Bringing that up, we also must remember that Vicky said the missing kits were not canon because these were her suggestions. Although that may not refer to every question she answers, it is an example that some of them are not canon. We also have Vicky saying, and I quote, "I cannot make decisions for the whole series as that wouldn't be fair to the others." And, once more, quoting her, "But to go back and insist that things are canon when they didn't appear in the original books is above my pay grade, sadly. I hope you understand." The post in general refers to the missing kits, but also these quotes from Vicky are very broad and refer to Su answering questions as a whole.

All right, so that aside, I want to bring up the DF cats, such as Brightflower and a few others. Yes, once more, they were said to be in the DF by someone. But we must remember this is Su, and not a writer of the books these cats were in, which I am inclined to rely more on. The reasons and explanations for the places these cats go are not reliable and do not make any sense. We have Brightflower, who went because she was driven with grief and hate. If so, why is Ashfur not in the Dark Forest as well? I am someone with a mental illness, and I do not have a favorable liking to a lot of people. Does that mean I go to hell? I am not sure if that was a good example, but going on. We have another cat (I cannot remember her name) who is crippled like Briarlight, but could not accept her fate. How in a logical way does this get her in the DF? We read that cats that go to the Dark Forest because they commit crimes when they are dead. In the books, we are never given any proof that these cats commit crimes, and when questions are asked, we never get answers as well. We are also told that "it is a secret". How can we take that as a cite? I get that Su helps Vicky, I get that completely. But she is not an author. She is not the writer of the books.

Vicky contradicts herself and Su several times. She has also said that these are Su's suggestions. There is nothing confirming that she herself agrees with this and approves of it. Quoting Vicky again, "Also, please, please remember that this is all speculative; nothing that is discussed after a book comes out can be set in stone, so don’t rush to conclusions about what I was thinking when I created a particular character or scene. I know the Dark Forest cats have stirred up a maelstrom of emotions. There are a million reasons why a cat is sent to the Dark Forest, and they can’t possibly be summed up in a single line. I would love to have the time and opportunity to write novellas explaining the history of every single cat that we have put in the Dark Forest, but that’s not going to happen, unfortunately."

Also, another quote. "If you feel that a reason we have suggested doesn’t feel right, that’s only a good thing. Perhaps you have a better understanding of that character than we do. Feel free to make your own suggestions! I really do feel that once I have finished with a book and sent it on its way, then the story and characters belong to you as well, and whatever conclusions you might draw from reading are as valid as mine or anyone else’s." She specifically says conclusions, and that they are valid as hers or anyone else's. Does that mean my conclusions are also valid? Can I add them to the Wiki? I do not think so, and that is the case here.

Long post is over. I understand that this is a controversial topic, so I ask all of you to please think about what you say before you comment, but I ask that you do. This is a confusing subject that should have been talked thoroughly before anything was done. 17:38, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

Missed something. Another quote, "But I promise she is almost always right!" Almost right =/= always right. 17:43, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

One thing I want to add that has bothered me forever is Marshcloud. He's literally an allegiance-only character, never seen in any books besides one mistake in a preview. How did Su come to the conclusion that he's in the DF? Like you stated above, almost always doesn't mean always.

Agreed with Danny. ^^

I disagree with removing these cites. Firstly, I think in any case shouldn't just pick and choose, so that whole cite (including the star cites) would have to go if we're just not counting the DF part. Secondly, this is where Su says: 'Yes. I asked her where the cats are because I can't just put them where I want to Especially the Dark Forest ones.' Su says that she asked Vicky because she can't just put them where she wants to. This isn't just Su just coming to fan conclusions imo - she asked Vicky where to put them, and put down what the author said. Even on the original comment where she posts her answer, she says that she had to check with Vicky before so she didn't slip up. I get that Su's word alone isn't like an author's post-death confirmation, but in this case, I really do believe that these were straight from Vicky, just through Su's mouthpiece.

I see the points from both sides on this, honestly, because I think the evidence itself is contradictory. I do think the information comes from or at least was checked Vicky, based on Su's comments. But even so, Vicky kind of walks back on the information (I'll link the post here) by calling the post-death residences "speculative", and we don't use speculation, even that which originates from the authors. And if Vicky says readers can make their own conclusions about where a cat went, then she's basically saying these conclusions she has just made aren't completely canonical. At the same time, it's worth remembering that this post was made after backlash (however, we did get rid of Missing Kits based on something said after backlash, but that statement explicity said they weren't canon, while this only implies such). Finally, I completely agree with Spooky we also have to get rid of the StarClan cites if we do the DF ones, they're from the same post. 20:58, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

Ivy, I am backing up your point because of the evidence you have provided. And in this case (I was not aware of the StarClan cats) they should be removed as well. 22:07, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

I would like to elaborate more on my prior comment, I posted it from my phone and of course, it would have spacing issues. I want to point out the timeline in this as well - the DF cats were the first thing revealed, and all of the links I have posted occured after. But yes, I was unaware that the StarClan cats had images as well. I agree that these cites also must go if we are removing the DF ones. 22:12, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

Promise this is my last comment in a row. Here are the links (not in chronological order, sorry, I do not have the time for that right now): link 1 link 2 link 3 link 4 link 5 link 6. 23:55, July 21, 2017 (UTC)

We voted and agreed to use her. If you want to backtrack on a year's worth of work, that's on your head, not mine. Especially because of this message, especially the second screenshot. Vicky outright says that if something Su says is not correct or quite right, Vicky will jump in to correct her. I am very much against this.

These messages are from 2016, almost a complete year ago in August. Vicky contradicted them in February. She changed her stance, from what I have seen. 00:14, July 22, 2017 (UTC)

Popping in to say, if it's ruled that Vicky changed her stance on the very validity of Su over time, then does this just apply to this one cite? Or will it affect all of Su's cites? It would seem logical in that way, because we shouldn't pick and choose what to say she changed her opinion on and what she didn't. But imo all of them still count, but if it is decided otherwise, then I think they all should go.

I agree with all that's been said above, including Spooky's last statement (as that was just what I was coming here to say). If everything is "speculative" and not set in stone, then we need to doubt all of Su's word, so technically everything she has ever said could be considered non-canon. <span style="">12:02, 7/22/2017

Icy, all of the links you provided only address two things: The Dark Forest cats and the Missing Kits segments. We have already removed the Missing Kits information, and we can remove the Dark Forest ones as well. But none of Vicky's comments address any of the other information Su has given us. Her words cannot be used for what she has not said. My message from Vicky still stands and has not been contradicted, unlike what you claim. Vicky has only said things on the Missing Kits segments and the placement of the Dark Forest cats. Nothing else. You have nothing that says any of Su's other information is wrong.

I never said that I wanted to remove all of her information. There is absolutely nothing in this post about rejoicing all of her information, just the DF cats. I am glad you agreee on that. 15:14, July 22, 2017 (UTC)

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:17, August 1, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure the DF cite should be treated exactly the same as Missing Kits, because that was repeatedly stated not to be canon. Vicky only directly addresses the DF cite in one post (link 4) and the closest she comes there to saying they're non-canon is to call them "speculative". I realize that might be enough, but look at the context: "remember that this is all speculative; nothing that is discussed after a book comes out can be set in stone". And in the next paragraph: "I really do feel that once I have finished with a book and sent it on its way, then the story and characters belong to you as well, and whatever conclusions you might draw from reading are as valid as mine or anyone else's." If we followed that logic, then nothing the authors stated outside of the books would be canon, but that seems to completely contradict the wiki's current definition of canon. Therefore, I don't feel the evidence to eliminate the DF cats cite is really that strong. 16:28, August 2, 2017 (UTC)

Yes but there is still evidence, no matter how strong it is or is not. Vicky specifically says it is speculative, and that does not make it 100% canon, in which is what we need. 19:58, August 2, 2017 (UTC)

I think what Ivy meant is that when Vicky said ' nothing that is discussed after a book comes out can be set in stone' - which doesn't just apply to the DF cats. But, we can't just remove everything the authors have ever said, and therefore there isn't enough proof to just remove the DF cats and not everything else. So yes, the DF cats are speculative by that, but by that, so is everything else.

If the post just says dark forest are not canon, then we remove those.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  08:40, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

Well, it would be everything on that one FB post, right? If we just removed the dark forest section of the exact same cite, then aren't we picking and choosing info?

I'd be up just for removing the Dark Forest cites, but please keep the images around, just in case something is changed in the future. Have we decided what we're doing, in regards to this? It's been pretty quiet in this discussion.

Anymore comments?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:00, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

My stance is that they should be removed. We do not have to delete the pictures but they should not be on the article. 16:51, September 14, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that at the very least the DF cats should be removed. However, I think we need to address Spooky's point as to whether we're going to get rid of the StarClan cites from that post as well. Vicky does only specifically speaks about the DF cites, but at the same time it would seem that if part of a post is non-canon, the whole thing would be. 19:32, September 14, 2017 (UTC)

If Vicky only says the Dark Forest part is non-canon, then that's what we should address. Just because one part is non-canon, doesn't mean everything is. It wouldn't really make sense to remove the StarClan cites as well, because they aren't said to be non-canon- just the Dark Forest cites. We aren't picking and choosing information in that case; only the Dark Forest cats are explicitly said to be non-canon.

No, I agree with you, Skye, my statement was only meant to clarify exactly what information we were agreeing to remove since no one ever refuted Spooky's argument and I couldn't tell. Since Su is considered a canon source and only the DF cats are explicitly called non-canon, the rest of the cite should be fine. 03:13, September 15, 2017 (UTC)

Flamenose
* hopes not to get shot for this*

This corresponds with the discussion about the full-color manga of Graystripe's Adventure. Everyone is agreeing to take what the books say over other things, so I'd like to bring up something else that's sort of related: Flamenose's description. His description right now is a bright red tom with darker parts, and the cite can be found here. Thing is, in the allegiances for Pinestar's Choice, his description is contradicted. Do we take the book description over the current description?

I think we should take the books' word over everything else.

I know I'm not in PC, but he is called ginger in that listing. Red/orange/ginger are interchangeable in the series, and there have been alts removed and or declined for a ginger/red/orange character being called one of the other terms. It seems like a partial, as there is a confirmed cite for his current description. It doesn't say he doesn't have the darker parts in his book listing. It just says he's ginger. <span style="">16:20 Thu Aug 24

agreeing with sunjaw <span style="">18:43, 8/24/2017

I would just say change the description to what it says in the book, but not the charart. The image itself is perfectly acceptable for his description for either cite, but we should display Flamenose's main description as what is shown in the book, as that overrides anything Su has said regarding descriptions.

Yeah book should be over author's word (I think an author said that book comes first over their word) and I could easily be that Flamenose's description was changed at the last moment or something.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:11, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

I agree that we should take the book's word first, so at least the description should be changed. I also think that Flamenose could possibly benefit from a charart tweak, if we change the description. Bright ginger is definitely an orange color, and if you search for "ginger color" or "bright ginger cat" your search results are pretty much all going to be within the orange range (even rather yellow-orange, might I add) and not like the bright red color on Flamenose's charart. I know we (rightly) consider ginger and orange to the same thing, but I'm not sure if ginger and red (dark red at that) are quite the same. 13:14, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

Just noting I looked up dark ginger cats. Some do have a reddish-tinge so I think that's only where we can make them red. But yes I agree with you. Other than that, they shouldn't be red.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:31, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

Have we decided what to do with this?

I think everyone's agreed to change the description.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  09:27, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

hoot and jumper underbite issue
so first off hoot is shown with the underbite. jumper is confirmed without here, which is the frame immediately preceding this one, and you can see hoot's ear in the first one. in the heart of a warrior, hoot is then shown without the teeth, and jumper is. (sorry about the quality on that one.) so the issue is do we use jumper since he was first, both since it's happened to both, or neither and just relegate it to trivia? 20:51, August 25, 2017 (UTC)

Definitely not okay with showing both of them with it. There's a clear difference between the one who has it and the one who doesn't. But honestly? I say just move it to the trivia because it feels more like they can't tell which cat is which anymore.

considering hoot is shown with it first and those are the only two instances I think where you can definitely tell them apart, maybe use his and label jumper's as a mistake? 01:16, August 26, 2017 (UTC)

even the artist is confusing them apart O.o I have no idea what to do here, honestly. Is there more instances where we see one with an underbite? I think just going with the frequency of them seen with an underbite or not tbh.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:14, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

There are a lot more cases where one cat is shown with an underbite, and one is not. While Jumper and Hoot were apparently called the cat with the underbite, there's no way we can show both of them with it and still stay accurate to the graphic novel, as there are countless more instances where one is clearly shown without one, and one is. While Hoot is first shown with the underbite, Hoot is also shown without one later, while Jumper is the one with it. I think they're mixing the cats up, but it's extremely confusing to tell which is which. The frequency of only one being shown is much higher than both of them being shown, and I think one of them has the underbite to tell them apart... it seems someone made a mistake.

Okay then. Are they the only instances where they are addressed and underbite is shown? If so, I think we should go with the first instance. So Hoot.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  08:40, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

First instance it is, then, I guess?

darktail group vs shadowclan affie
keeping it short bc im about to fall asleep but with darktails rogues, how can the shadowclan cats become darktails group and the already rogues become shadowclan at the same time?? the impression was that the shadowclan cats turned rogue and i dont see how they can exist simultaneously, like a one or the other situation? 01:35, September 2, 2017 (UTC)

I think part of that can be answered in this past discussion. At first, they still called themselves ShadowClan so the affie for that, but received the rogue image/rank due to not being a Clan really even though they kinda were. Then, Darktail's Kin really became Darktail's Group later and that's when we added the new affies to match with the allegiances of Shattered Sky

Yeah, but didn't they still consider themselves ShadowClan? I know they did in Thunder and Shadow, or at least that's what I was getting from the book. I don't know if we should list the original rogues that Darktail brought with him as ShadowClan, but.. I'm not 100% sure what exactly to do, because while they're listed as rogues, but they're still called ShadowClan. Case and point, Juniperclaw (who is part of the rogue group), is also called a ShadowClan warrior on page 10 of Shattered Sky. Also, Spooky, the group should have become the Kin, not the other way around? The group was for the Hawkwing's Journey cats, whereas The Kin is a Shattered Sky-exclusive group.

Chronologically, yes, But Shattered Sky came out after Hawkwing's Journey so we had all of those Darktail's Group allegiances, as we didn't know they were called The Kin Nov. '16 - April '17. That's why I said that we changed/added some to match SS when that came out.

But they were only called The Kin in Shattered Sky. We don't know if Darktail called his group that when they were in Hawkwing's Journey, and it's an assumption to say otherwise. =/

Well yeah, I know. That's why we still have Darktail's Group allegiances for those cats... I never said that they were called the Kin in HJ, because they weren't. What I was saying was that we just added The Kin to those who stick with him in SS, therefore differentiating the two from their earlier HJ listings. There was a publication gap between the two, and so we did physically make the changes for both of these cases in two waves.

the thing is I still don't see how all of them can get all of that at the same time. either the rogues shadowclan affiliation should be removed, or the darktail's group should be removed on everyone barring beenose and co, since it was all of darktail's living cats there. 05:56, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

I think it's best to go with what the allegiance says. That's like, it's job to tell us these things O.o I think we need to also be aware of bias. Characters that were once recognised as ShadowClan warriors or rogues can still be perceived as them, even though they are not (kinda like the Hal's group are called kittypets but are actually not thing).<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:17, September 3, 2017 (UTC)

so basically, maybe we should remove the "Darktail's Group" for all of them shown to be part of The Kin in Shattered Sky? Because they were very obviously still part of said group... but for the ones who aren't shown in Shattered Sky (Flame comes to mind), keep them just at "Darktail's Group", and make a note somewhere that "The Kin" was a term only used in Shattered Sky, and it's unknown as to what they were called prior to that?

I disagree with eliminating the Darktail's Group affiliation for cats that later became part of the Kin. I think the Kin is an entirely separate affiliation than Darktail's group and is a bit of a mixture of both rogue and ShadowClan, while the original group was purely rogue. I think that the group became the Kin when ShadowClan and Darktail's Group officially merged at the end of Thunder and Shadow (the name just wasn’t there until SS), and that it's not the same as either group was beforehand. So I think cats like Dawnpelt should get ShadowClan and the Kin (not Darktail's Group) and cats like Rain should get Darktail's Group and the Kin (not ShadowClan). 20:02, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

Have we reached a conclusion on this?

I think the impression is Darktail and followers were originally part of Darktail's Group in Hawkwing's Journey but became "the Kin" in Thunder and Shadow, which really isn't a Clan because I think it's the same case as BloodClan, pretending to be a Clan but not really as no Clan positions and don't follow warrior code.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  09:31, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

Guardian Cats
Just now Tigerheart's Shadow is now released and we have a new cat place thing called Guardian Cats. Should they get their own blanks like the Cats of the Park or something? Thoughts? <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 00:18, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

I think they should get their own blanks. Cats of the Parks did, so did the Tribe of Rushing Water cats. Why shouldn't they?

What exactly are the Guardian cats? Are they an organized group, do they have a specified leader, ect?

Maybe once we have more information on the Gaurdian Cats, we could discuss it more. But it feels like they're a group as like the Cats of the Park. <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 00:23, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

I think they have "healers", so maybe that's like their leader? 00:25, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

Healers are the leader. Sort of like in the Tribe of Rushing Water.

huh? they specifically said they have no leaders and everyone is equal. 03:08, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

I haven't gotten the book yet, but I still stand for blanks because they're basically a group of cats that takes care of one another and stuff. <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 03:09, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

I havent gotten the book yet and this may be a huge spoiler for me, but it seems like most of you are jumping the gun way too quickly in hopes of getting more art, and that is something you shouldnt really focus on :/ art is not everything. Im agreeing with waiting to see what the guardian cats actually are and what roles they play. While it seems to me from reading the comments that they may be sort of rogues with warrior tendencies, and to that of which we should, as kate always says, wait and see <span style="">03:32, 9/05/2017

@David, oh right. I'm pretty tired so I forgot that it was specifically mentioned every cat is equal. But I think Winter might have a point, so maybe we should wait on it a bit.

Winter, I don't think that's the case here. It's a legitimate question. =\ They seem like the Cats of the Park to me, minus a leader???

I think it stated that each cat has a job, healers, and two other groups. Let me grab the book and see if I can find it. Really good book guys, think you will enjoy it. :) 04:04, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

Page 158, Dotty says "She said some heal, some hunt, some guard." Idk if that means anything, but just thought I should throw it in just incase. 04:10, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

After reading the book, I really believe that the Guardian cats are unique enough for a blank. In context, ya really can't consider them rogues using the description we hold canon on the rogue page. And then, they aren't loners either, imo. They have unique rules, live in a unique place, and use unique terms. That's enough for a blank in my eye.

I'm sorry if I put the topic on too quickly. I didn't mean for like "oh, we need more cat art," I just meant like because of what they are and what they do, I truly believe they should get their own blanks. But also, I personally don't know how to add cites or really anything. If anyone can teach me or show me that, please do because I want to contribute more to this wikia. Sorry Winter, if that's what I was implying about "more art." <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 04:49, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think you have to apologize, Cosmo. This was a valid thread and I didn't get that impression from you at all.

I just tend to say sorry a lot, as it's a habit. But I think the Guardian Cats are a very unique group, I'd say, and they deserve a blank like other groups. <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 04:58, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

Now that I've had a chance to read the book and see some of the stuff you guys are talking about, yes, I do agree that these cats deserve their representation, and they should have both a blank and a page/group category. They are an organized group, they have their own jobs (such as Spire, who heals, and Blaze, who learns from Spire), and while they have no defined leader, they are very much a group of cats and not just a couple loners living together. They even have their own form of a camp. This was not for more art, and I do very much believe this was a valid question due to the group's actions in the book.

I would also like to say that in chapter 25, they establish their own territory and even have borders. That is more than just an loose group of cats. Fierce outright says "this is guardian cat territory".

I haven't had a chance to read the book yet, but I believe they're an interesting group of cats. Also, does Tigerheart and Dovewing get these blanks once they're made? Do we use the healer blank for Spiresight? <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 12:01, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

I'm on page 300 now and I've found a quote that makes me even more agree that they're their ownselves. Dovewing quoted, "These cats aren't rogues. We have seen them fight to protect their denmates, and scavenge for others. They take care of their sick like clan cats." <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 15:44, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

Also, on page 303, it shows how Cinnamon lived in a different part of the city before she joined the guardian cats. <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 15:45, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

I agree they should get their own blanks. From what I hear, they don't just seem like rogues, they seem more Clan like to me, or like people said above, the Cats of the Park. I don't have the book yet, but I support it. 15:53, September 5, 2017 (UTC)

agreed. <span style="">20:28, 9/06/2017

I'm a little late to the discussion (even though it's only been a day) but I agree with giving them blanks. They're similar to the CotP, and if they get their own blanks, so should these guys.

Ranks + Blanks. No need to say anymore.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  07:10, September 8, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with them getting their own blanks. But, did we decide if the whalers should get a separate blank like medicine cats, too? (Sorry if I missed anything I didn't read it all.) I know this is being discussed on PCA, should it be left there? 22:42, September 9, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I definitely think the group should get their own ranks and blanks based on considerations we've made in the past for groups like Cats of the Park. As far as images, my thought is that we should use the same new Guardian Cats blank for healers as the other cats, but that we should distinguish them with having herbs in their mouth. 23:15, September 9, 2017 (UTC)

I agree that the Guardian Cats should get their own blanks. Though, I'm not too sure about Ivy's idea with the herbs in the mouth for the healers. I haven't read the book yet, but my train of thought is that the healers get their own blanks, like Stoneteller, Cave-Guarders, Prey-Hunters, and To-Bes. But, then again, I haven't read the book so I don't know if Healers are a completely separate class from the rest of the Guardians. 00:34, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

Well, if they do get new blanks. I would like to try one. Specifically the regular guardian cat blank. But, I do agree with Ivy's idea, because many cats in the group are not specified as a guard. In fact, I don't really know of any cat in that group saying they were a healer or guard, besides Spire. 00:38, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

Technically, both Peanut and Bracken were healers too. But then, they aren't that different than regular guardian cats either, as Bracken helped hunt and helped do the fox thing that people who read TS know what I'm talking about. So I do support just adding herbs to the guardian cat blank for them, like I said on PCAs's page

Any more comments? Sorry if this is too early? <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 20:08, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

This is not the place where you claim blanks. However, I do agree that the Guardian Cats should get blanks, as they seem to be their own group as well. 16:46, September 14, 2017 (UTC)

Is this safe to discuss with PCA for blanks, then?

I agree! <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 02:28, September 20, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think discussing with PCA for Guardian Cat blanks would do any harm.

SkyClan ancestors and StarClan
So what should we do with this now that SkyClan's Ancestors are back with the "original" (for lack of better word) StarClan?

I believe that they're not in StarClan altogether, I think they should be current StarClan, but their SkyClan Ancestors would be their past affie as it was its own "StarClan" until they all joined together. <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:17px;text-shadow:4px 4px 4px #b278ed;">C o s m o s n e s s 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:10px;">#cat lady 03:16, September 14, 2017 (UTC)

I have to agree with that, that's what I was thinking. Seems like the best option, seeing as they were on their own for a while like their own Clan. Maybe temporarily should be put afterwards in parentheses.

But temporarily isn't the right word. They never had any intentions, as far as I know, to go back to the rest of StarClan. Temporary would be used in cases where there is clear intent to revert back to the original circumstance- such as Sorreltail temporarily mentoring Foxleap, while Squirrelflight ventured to the mountains in Outcast.

Ah, okay. That makes a lot more sense.

I agree with Cosmo about giving all the SkyClan ancestors their current affiliation as StarClan, and then putting SkyClan Ancestor as a past affiliation. 19:35, September 14, 2017 (UTC)

^^So do I. 01:13, September 20, 2017 (UTC)

^ yep.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  09:33, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

Grammar
Hi guys, I wanted to bring something up about the grammar on Warriors Wiki. Let us just say that it is incorrect. There are a lot of grammar issues there is one huge one but I will not mention it because I will be eaten alive , but the main issue is the categories. First, we have a category that is Main Characters. However, characters should not be capitalized, seeing that it is a proper noun. On that topic, we have categories like Thunder Rising characters, which, if following the same rule we used for Main Characters, should be Thunder Rising Characters. But both are incorrect, so it should stay to a lower capitalized character.

Also, there is an issue with the plural / singular categories. For example, we have one that is "Males", and we also have another one that is "Leader". If we follow the both roles we should use males and leaders or male and leader. We cannot be so inconsistent. Now, I know that moving these categories may be a lot of work so I believe that a user with a wiki bot who is coded to do all of these things, Xd1358, will be willing to help. He has even said to me that he will help, the only issue is we need to give him bot flags. So if we can agree to change these, and also agree to let this user help (Which I adamantly vouch for, I do not think we can create a bot on our own, considering the amount of testing / code / I cannot find anyone else who is willing to do it). May I have thoughts on this? 14:12, September 15, 2017 (UTC)

Erm, excuse me. I meant it is not a proper noun. 14:14, September 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do have a bot that I use mainly on Wookieepedia. Recategorizing is really simple with a bot and I don't foresee any problems. However, due to the large volume of pages affected, a bot flag for EcksBot would probably be necessary to avoid it from running into rate limits and hiding bot edits from the Recent changes page. 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  14:16, September 15, 2017 (UTC)

I would also like to point out a few things wrong with the grammar on the wiki. We are an encyclopedia, therefore we should be using formal and professional text. In professional text, per several grammar handbooks, we should not be using contractions. Contractions are not used in formal writing, rather semi-formal and informal. Also, "alright" is an incorrect spelling - in formal text, it is "all right". Also, we have several, excessive commas that break the flow of the sentences. There are no need for commas if the clause has no subject. Alongside our category chances, and some of our capitalization errors, these are a few issues I see that we should be fixed. Now, I realize we are not all going to be happy about the contraction issue, but if we want to have a professional wiki, we need to make sure our articles reflect it. 18:00, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

It's good with me, and I'm glad Ecks is willing to help, but my question is how is he supposed to get the bot flags, when none of us have 'crat rights? Perhaps we could ask Wikia for help on this matter??? Considering I'd say we need you and I to have those rights anyways, Icy... Any idea how long this would take? I wouldn't say that long, since Wookieepedia is a hell of a lot larger than we are.

We really do need another 'crat (or two) here, as I can recall a specific staff inquiry that was ended in April, but nothing has been done about the rights and it's mid-September? Nothing against our current 'crat personally, but we do need another since their past 50 edits range back to 2013. I'd imagine Wikia would be willing to help on something like this pretty quick. It could probably be solved directly w/ them, but they do have the adopt a wiki process in which admins cat get b-crat rights that way with community support so either way.

I have been trying to do that, Spooky. We do have an adopt a wiki process but I do not remember why we could not do it, I remember disagreeing because Kitsu was still active and is able to be contacted. However, I have attempted to contact her and yet I have not received a reply. Jayce and I are still figuring out what to do, but right now, we need to focus on this issue. I believe I can get ecks' bot to get rights if I just email wikia, but right now, we will figure that out. 18:46, September 17, 2017 (UTC)

I can't really give you an answer on the exact time it will take, but the bot software is very fast (15+ edits a minute) and you don't have that many categories and even a smaller share of those are misnamed. I don't anticipate this taking more than an hour or two and it shouldn't cause any disruption elsewhere on the wiki. And yes, admins can indeed request bot flags through Special:Contact. 1358 <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  10:54, September 20, 2017 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. I also like this 'Bot' way of doing this. Sounds like AI's are going to take over the wiki O.o<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  09:36, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

The bot is currently fixing all of the categories, we should all give our thanks to ecks, because without him and his bot this would not be possible so he deserves all our thanks since he is helping us fix things. Also, can I get some comments on my grammar issue? I know it will be a lot of work to change conjuctions and words, but I would really like to see everyone's opinion. 20:22, September 23, 2017 (UTC)

no, I don't think we need to edit the conjuctions and whatever. might be an encylopedia but things like "it's" is fine, saying "it is" all the time gets tiresome to read and type, and frankly just makes it sounds too boring and too formal. it's just a small encylopedia about a cat series. as long as we aren't using things like "gonna", then who cares about some here and there? 20:46, September 23, 2017 (UTC)

Except the argument given to me several times, not just me but a lot of arguments on the wiki, was, "we are a professional wiki." A professional wiki has professional text, therefore we should not be using any conjunctions. Of course, I do understand that if you want to keep them, go ahead, and I am not forcing anyone to do anything, I just thought it would be reasonable to point this out. 23:01, September 23, 2017 (UTC)

It looks like things are already being changed I think? But I'll add my opinion anyway. I have to agree with David, not because typing it out is any hard work, but because seeing it over and over again would get to be a bit dull.

I understand that, but a "bit dull" is very different from grammatically correct, and professional text is the default state, alongide credibility, because this is not a blog we are running. Encyclopedic writing is expected to follow basic rules of formal writing, and even putting aside rules imported from Wikipedia. Contractions are only for informal/non-academic use. If you can tell me that this is not an encyclopedia, or we would like to appear as one, or would like to agree that it is not, I take back my argument. However, if we truly are one, per several sources (I understand the second one is about business, but also take a look at the words used and the sections underneath it) prove that in both formal and professional writing, contractions should not be used. 23:31, September 23, 2017 (UTC)

Eh, you got me there. I think we should go ahead and let the Bot cover all this.

Well I mean. There are contractions used in the series itself, so... I can't say I agree. I really don't see the problem with most contractions, and am not seeing how it takes away too much formality from articles. I agree with skt - as long as we aren't using 'gonna' and 'ain't' every other sentence, I think it's okay.

Spirekit ~ Silver Nomination
Sorry if I'm doing this incorrectly. . . first time I'm doing a nomination on PC.

CBV?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  09:53, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

"Queen"
I was digging through Tigerheart's Shadow, and I found a bit of interesting information. They use the term "queen" for pregnant she-cats. Given they outright call pregnant she-cats queens on page 183, it's pretty obvious this isn't just a Clan term anymore? Should we start re-adding this to other articles as well, or...? Because I'm not sure who decided that "queen" is a Clan term only, but I'm starting to think that's wrong...

I think that we could add it for the guardian cats, but I personally wouldn't go as far to add it to other articles, imo, unless specified. Queen takes a two meanings in the series, as I know Bluestar was called a queen in Into the Wild when she definitely didn't have kits, and then the human definition of "queen" in relation to a cat is an unaltered female. The guardian cats might get that rank, because they're a society with rules and customs of their own, I'm not sure other cats like normal loners and rogues would qualify.

I see your point, but wouldn't it make sense to apply it to pregnant she-cats in general? That seems to be what they do in the series. The definition of a queen in the Warriors series is "she-cats expecting or nursing kits". I'm not sure why they called Bluestar that in Into the Wild, because the series clearly has what it should be. It would also an extra cite for cats who have the queen image in their gallery (ie; Snowy), but don't have a cite for it at first glance (we only know by checking the family sections and stuff like that).

One of the author's mentioned somewhere that the term queen originally meant any she-cat, so Bluestar and Spottedleaf are mistakes. I do agree that queen should apply to all nursing/pregnant she-cats. I already thought this was in place O.o shows how little I pay attention.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  09:38, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

I think we should think a little bit more before adding it to the Guardian cats, let alone every cat that's been pregnant. But if anything, just adding it to the Guardian cats would make some sense.

why tho? every cat thats been pregnant regardless of being a clan cat or not has been called a queen, going from memory. into the wild excluded, because they obviously dropped that idea. we should add it. 23:03, September 23, 2017 (UTC)

Samples for unreleased books
I talked to a couple admins about this briefly, so I know their opinions on this but I wanted to bring it up as a formal discussion. When a new sample for an unrealeased book is released, I was thinking we could add the genders and descriptions of a cat, not just their name. I know we've done it the other way for ages, but things change. I just wanted to gather an opinion on this before an official vote.

I have no issues with it, but I should make it clear that since they're previews, the information should be taken with a grain of salt, as things can change between a preview and a book's release. (last-minute editor things, the preview being from an earlier version of the story, ect) If we find contradictions, an official release of a book/a kindle edition will always take priority over a preview. I mean, we already have people who try and add the descriptions. I mean, the chararts and stuff (for people who are bound to ask about it) would still be held by the "midnight on the wiki clock" rule that we have....but descriptions have never hurt anyone.

Sure why not. It would certainly cut down on all those people who hop on pre-book release to try and add things :P

@Jayce, yeah. And other little things like the Shattered Ice thing from Tallstar's Revenge. But I think descriptions/Clans have generally been the same as they were in the sample.

Yeah since their name is "released", I don't see why not on adding all the information it gives on other stuff too. We just need to make sure we are clear on chararts, cites, and all that.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  09:42, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

Marigold (Cat) ~ Silver Nomination
Poor she-cat.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:40, September 23, 2017 (UTC)

Streak ~ Silver Nomination
Poor thing.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  00:12, September 24, 2017 (UTC)