Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Family Tree Icons
To what extent should we use these for a cat's description? (sounds like an essay question not my intention lol) We've already used these for Swiftbreeze and such. Another question is what if they've been consistently depicted in a certain way? (for example, Tawnypelt being tortie-and-white in every artwork of her)

like it was said in the discord, it should be all or nothing really, unless it's specifically contradicted. it is technically an official source after all. 15:54, March 2, 2019 (UTC)

We don't merge manga descriptions with book ones, so how's that any different tbh? If we take icons, but won't merge published mangas, then we run into the same dilemma. And if we take colors from the official tree, then we should be matching the shades to them as well, because it's a visual source and not a written one, otherwise we get into the combining tons of partials range. Tawnypelt is a notable example, she's pale and mottled in the books, but definitely not so in her art. Imo, we should be taking the official art because it's so consistent in said case, but if we do then that has to be something we do for others too. The website has also picked up a habit of... copying our errors lmao, even though we fix them it's like an accordion effect, and so when it eventually gets fixed it'll be for moot rip

I agree not to merge the descriptions. It should be seen as an alt tbh 17:26, 3/03/2019

My question is... who are we to decide what does or doesn't count? The family trees are officially released content from Working Partners. Why should it be seen as an alt? Because it "contradicts written text"? Because in the cases of Tawnypelt and Shellpaw, at least, it doesn't contradict anything- it adds onto their current description and is in no way, shape, or form a contradiction. In Tawnypelt's case, both "pale" and "mottled" were used less than the amount of times she is depicted as a "darker" tortie-and-white. Given that the designs are used across various pieces of media (The Ultimate Guide, Cats of the Clans, Battles of the Clans, and the family tree), I feel we shouldn't be regarding that instance as a mistake.

I could see merging the descriptions if it does not contradict what we have. But, that in and of itself should only apply to when a character is actually addressed as said description. For Tawnypelt, that wouldn't be merging, as she is depicted as a tortie. For others, it might be considered combining two sources that have nothing to do with one another.

Mapleshade has a good example: she was said to have a white tail while she is called ginger-and-white. We cannot and should not combine that with her tortie-and-white description, because she was not called tortie-and-white in the book where the mention occurred. Most of these can be used in some way, like changing Swiftbreeze's coloring, but we need to look at them with a close eye and probably even in a case-by-case basis to some extent. They shouldn't be added without discussing it completely here, though. ​

I think I agree most with Troll. All or nothing.

I've been thinking for a bit of the family tree icons. If you look, I think it's supposed to represent their heads. Their shaped like cat's heads, the tabbies have the tabby pattern of a cat's head. So I'm not sure the description we take from them is supposed to be describing their heads or something (e.g. Tawnypelt has white on her head?)Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:29, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

As Jayie said in the chat, these icons weren't meant to be totally accurate and detailed descriptions, and things such as tabby markings and speckles likely wouldn't be fixed in the future to be completely true to what a cat is. They're not complete, and not always 100% accurate, then. I think we should be careful with what we do with these and some as alts might be more accurate - a tiny icon shouldn't determine a cat's listed appearance with the addition of a new color, when it's not necessarily reflecting the cat's whole description.

So you're saying it's like in book allegiances where it's only of a partial of their full description? So like Tawnypelt is a mottled tortoiseshell while her allegiances generally say tortoiseshell, while her family tree icon shows her as tortoiseshell-and-white?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:04, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

It's not a detailed description, but it's still a representation. Even though it's simplistic, I'm sure people can reasonably deduce a color and what the icon is supposed to represent, like Tawnypelt having white. It may be a case by case basis (like whether the official art also consistently depicts the cat in a certain way) but we still should take the icons into some consideration.

i think we should take some of the icons into consideration, but for the ones that totally contradict their descriptions (coughcough dustpelt) then no merging. it really depends tbh. because these are still official in a way.

Unknown gender
Just a thought, but how about for characters who have a description and no gender, instead say, for example: Boulder is a gray tabby cat. instead of Boulder is a gray tabby cat with an unknown gender. honestly it just adds an unnecessary amount of text to the page when they already have the unknown gender category on their page 17:21, 3/03/2019

Hm I mean yeah, and it's kinda antiquated to use nowadays too, maybe wishful thinking but it might not be unknown, it could be 'none' if that's how a cat identified (rip authors probably never ever doing that, but still)

I want a nonbinary cat please. Anyways, yeah, we should probably just remove the "unknown gender" thing and just do what you suggested. ​

I'm already doing it with Minor characters because there are so many and it's just so much clutter. So I agree.

What about 'unknown descriptions'? Like, we have characters like Lowbranch where we know gender but not description, and it would look fine without adding the 'unknown description' part.

But then that brings up characters like Morningmist, what do we do with them? 'Morningmist is a cat'?Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:35, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

Do we need a description at all at that point? Would it be terrible to just launch into the history?

Alternatively, should a cat like that go onto the minor character least, even if named? 19:29 Sat Mar 16 2019

yeah honestly I'd be okay with cats like that going on minor characters^^

I think an alternative way to work with the characters such as Morningmist, would just be to jump right into the history, because idk, but i honestly think moving them to the minor character page might confuse some people

maybe we can redirect the pages to the minor character page under their name? 21:26, 3/16/2019

Sorry, but I'm definitely not for moving cats with confirmed names to the minor characters pages. That defeats the purpose of the original idea behind said pages to begin with, and some of the minor characters also have families and other information beyond a name. Just because they're lacking a description doesn't mean they shouldn't have a page.. it's possible the narrative just didn't have time for it. ​

I agree with straight to history but not to minor characters page. That defeats the whole purpose, and the pages are getting big enough as they are.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:05, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

Hmm yeah history then. Any other comments?

Bluestar - pale?
Not putting this in cite removals because major character and all. However. We have a pale cite from CP in which, she's called just pale gray. But then, we have several mentions scattered throughout The Prophecies Begin and probably some more + BP and stuff. Mistystar, is cited to be specifically neither 'pale nor dark', and is just blue-gray. If they are so much like each other, shouldn't we be considering the pale cite a mistake? It wasn't a pale blue-gray cite either, just pale gray, and thus would be like combining silver and gray, because blue-gray is color, and combining partials etc.

Mistystar, Bluestar, and Stonefur have been said to look alike so many times, it makes no sense for Bluestar to be pale, when Mistystar has an author-cited base coloring. Having Bluestar and Stonefur as pale completely contradicts the million times that they're said to look so much alike. Make them all the same neutral blue-gray shade. It's pretty clear that's what they are, not this pale stuff. ​

Agreeing with Jayce^ 22:39, March 5, 2019 (UTC)

could the looking so much alike also mean their facial and bodily features? almost all the time im with my mom somewhere someone else mentions we look so much alike, but we physically are not <span style="">22:44, 3/05/2019

This is definitely not just referring to body features. ​

That definitely says their fur is identical. In my opinion the pale cite should be removed.

Any other comments?

I'm not sure. They are said to be pale so many times vs one author cite. I'm thinking they might all be pale (or maybe like a between pale and mid-coloured? Who knows ><)<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:43, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

Bluestar is only called pale once, and not in connection with blue-gray. It wasn't several times

I'm talking all of them. Stonefur and Bluestar were called pale. Even Mistystar too (although author cite cancels it). So it's kinda two cites vs one author cite, if you get what I mean.

Am I mistaken, or did we decide to go book cite over author cite? I swear Kate once said to do exactly that. Book is more canon over their word.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:23, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

In this case, we'd be using both, since Mistystar is the one with the confirmed author shade, but something from Fire and Ice confirms that all three of them are identical. Regardless, all three do need to match, as per something that's been around since the original arc.. regardless of what shade is chosen, they need to match. Even Bluestar's official artwork doesn't show her as pale, and that's also something to take into consideration. ​

It's not 1 author vs. 2 book;; as I'd linked in a folderfull of book screenshots, the identical cites, publishing wise, comes before CP's Bluestar and Stonefur pale ones. The pale cite is a partial that got slapped in, and there's evidence to contradict it on several fronts, and that's why I'm saying it needs to go^^

I do agree they need to be identical, it's just whether they have to be pale or not I'm confused about. How many times are they referred to as pale or not pale? I might have to make a list of that so I understand better.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:32, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

Pale gray and pale blue-gray aren't the same thing, though. It's combining descriptions that have nothing to do with one another. Just because a cat is called "pale gray" does not mean we can change a description to say "pale blue-gray"... It's not even really a partial, as I feel they're two totally different things. Gray is gray, blue-gray is not. ​

i feel like blue-grey is its own shade like pale grey and dark grey are. unless it says pale blue-grey or whatever, i dont think we should combine them. 21:46, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

Alright I did research of the first books in the timeline. Bluestar's pale shape cite can be disputed as she was next to the Moonstone. I can discount her pale gray as she and Crookedpaw has a whole conversation of she is actually blue. Stonefur is in the same sentence as Mistykit mistakenly saying dark gray, so we can debate whether cites like that can be counted. Lastly, Mistystar has a pale gray flanks which a cite disputed it? Can someone find a cite for that?

So yeah that's what I found. I can see if I can find more cites in more books. Just keep in mind Bluestar was also called gray (just gray) multiple times, so I don't think we can say it's a completely different colour.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  06:23, March 14, 2019 (UTC)

And I just found a good Cite:

“Bluestar.” Leafpool dipped her head to a she-cat, broad-faced and round-eyed, with long, pale fur. (The Sight, page 183)

If we can't take that as a clear cite then I don't know what we can.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  04:12, March 16, 2019 (UTC)

Why should we be disregarding what an author is saying? Mistystar is the one with the concrete cite that trumps everything, imo. That in and of itself isn't disputable. Kate said she was neither dark nor light, meaning both of those mentions should be ruled as mistakes, when we have outright proof that says Bluestar, Mistystar, and Stonefur are the exact same coloring. ​

I'd actually also like to add that since both pale and dark are used for these cats, we shouldn't list either one as the confirmed shade and instead go with what Kate says, who writes the books. We'd be cherrypicking to list either pale or dark, regardless of book count. ​

The Sight is in the third series... her shade match confirm is from the first. We almost always take the first. And, she was dead then. StarClan cats have stars in their fur and glow - what cat wouldn't be pale?

blue-grey is a pretty specific colour, and the fact it's never used in conjunction with either dark or pale makes it seem like it's just slapping them together as a combo. that and the fact her art shows her neutral, being described as identical more or less to her children, and having a cite for a neutral shading for mistystar points towards her being neither. 20:07, March 16, 2019 (UTC)

It's combining citations that have nothing to do with each other. Given she's never called "pale blue-gray", I don't think we should be combining them due to the fact that when she's called pale, she's almost always called just "pale gray", when that is not the same thing as blue-gray. ​

I'd also like to add that blue-gray in and of itself is defined as "a medium blueish-gray color". Meaning that this in particular is an actual shade and should not have pale or dark tacked onto it. ​

It might be best to go off the color of Russian Blue cats, which she is said to be based off of. It's usually a medium to light gray. <span style="">22:38 Sat Mar 16 2019

I'm really sorry but I just don't understand. All I see is a bunch of pale cites (including a couple of just 'pale') vs 1 author cite. Yes there's dark but there's more pale cites than dark. And a lot of things being said contradicts some of what is already on pages.

(I do not mean to attack anyone at all here, I'm just confused and wish to understand is all) Can we discount that pale StarClan cat cite? We have taken pale cites from StarClan cats. For example, Yellowfang's pale cites are described as mistakes so by going like that, it's not a mistake then? I'm not sure we can trust wikipedia for a definition as if you scroll down, there are very pale looking blue-gray colours there. And as Raelic said, many Russian blue's are pale so it's not impossible in real life. Plus, we would have to remove Stormtail's dark cite if that's the case.

So yes I'm confused help me ><.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:14, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

She said it was a medium to light gray, not that it was pale. I'm still a bit confused as to why you want to discredit the people who wrote the books. We cannot list Bluestar as pale gray while still keeping true to what Kate said about Mistystar (which is said without hesitation and even discredits the dark cites while we're at it), because it contradicts what's said in the books themselves. Mistystar isn't pale or dark, as per Kate herself. This means due to what is said in Fire and Ice at least, Bluestar cannot be pale and still be the same as Mistystar. These two, and Stonefur, were said to be exactly the same. Having pale listed for Bluestar and Stonefur completely negates something that's been said countless times throughout the course of the series, that Mistystar, Stonefur, and Bluestar look exactly alike.

Regardless of how many times they've been called pale, it's been made pretty clear through Bluestar's official artwork as well that this isn't the case, and that this is an error. David also has a good point that "pale blue-gray" is never used. It's a classic example of combining citations when they shouldn't be. There is a difference between pale gray and blue-gray. Unless she's outright called "pale blue-gray", I really don't think we should continue to have it in her description, especially given how it contradicts her official artwork. ​

Alright I did some research on our own wiki. Since we have Brackenfur and Thornclaw (golden-brown) have light brown as mistakes, I can see us discounting pale gray.

What about just saying pale? We have 1 or 2 counts of Bluestar being called just pale.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:29, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

Golden-brown and light brown are not the same thing, and I still firmly believe it's combining descriptions. Unless "pale blue-gray" is used directly within the series (which to my knowledge, isn't), it shouldn't count. Stormtail's would stay because he is called "dark blue-gray" (I checked the other day on this one). ​

I agree with the golden-brown thing, that was what I was saying. I'm not sure about you're other point. If we go by it, so many clear 'pale' cites like Daisy and Tawnypelt would be removed.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:45, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

Jayce, with all due respect, with that logic in your last comment, that would mean we'd have to re-go through all cites similar to this and check whether they say, for example, pale golden-brown, instead of just pale. While I don't disagree that sometimes it shouldn't count, you really just have to look at the context. Besides, pale blue-gray is still blue, albeit a little gray. Which brings another question: when you look up blue-gray cat or russian blue cat, you get some really gray looking cats in the mix with the tag "Russian blue". If this is the case, wouldn't her gray cites just be partials? Plus Crookedstar had only ever seen her, and of course he'd comment about how blue she actually is. <span style="">11:07, 3/19/2019

We can always depict the blue-gray of their art as a paler/neutral shade, but for terms of what is listed in the description, in this case, tacking a pale partial onto Bluestar given a) her official art b) the first arc of the series, the first thing we have, has the look-alike cites that come first and c) it's never called 'pale blue-gray' d) we really can't... combine all the partials ever. We never do; it's a thing that we don't combine partials and mold them into the description we wish canon to be. Agreed with Winter, context is everything - and I do think we should go back and check some things on occasion just to see. But in this case, I believe it's one of the ones that is refutable and shouldn't be listed, only reflected slightly in the art.

Half Moon - Toggle SC
Based on Dawn of the Clans and Moth Flight's Vision, it seems like Half Moon is meant to be StarClan as well as Tribe of Endless Hunting, much like Feathertail. She should probably have a toggle for both on her page and her current affiliation to be both residencies as she is seen walking in both. I don't think her appearances in the last books of OotS are enough to confirm or deny that she is no longer a part of StarClan. <span style="">21:51 Wed Mar 13 2019

I don't think so. We don't have proof in OoTS that she moves between them. I think when the Tribe of Endless Hunting formed she joined them and left StarClan.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:25, March 14, 2019 (UTC)

Hm. I thought this had been brought up before... but yeah lack of proof imo.

I think in this case the burden of proof is on her not being in StarClan as she was previously and cats can be in both. <span style="">18:57 Thu Mar 21 2019

The prologue of The Last Hope directly calls Half Moon an ancient, and does not address her as a StarClan cat. And on page 307, she's also addressed as an ancient, despite cats like Bluestar and others called StarClan cats. ​

Foster vs Adopt
We used the term 'foster', but I'm seeing both foster and adopt being used in the series, so I'm wondering if we should have both terms for our pages.

Foster and adopt are two different things. Foster is a temporary care, like Brokenstar with Lizardstripe for example, whereas adopt is for life, like how Thunderstar always sees Gray Wing as his father even when he is an adult. So I think we need to change some character pages from 'foster' to 'adopt' to reflect that.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:29, March 14, 2019 (UTC)

We should list them as they were said in the books^^ There's definitely a difference, and we shouldn't list them all as foster auto, because some of them weren't

Definitely agree with having both according to m what they are in the books. <span style="">19:26 Sat Mar 16 2019

Any other comments?

DotC medicine cat page names
Ah, SotC. The lovely old book that doesn't line up with DotC. We have the DotC medicine cats with the page names Pebbleheart, Cloudspots, Dapplepelt (not the other two, for varying reasons). But anyways, the cite we use for them being say, 'Pebbleheart' instead of 'Pebble Heart', is from a scene of how the medicine cats began - which very clearly sits in Moth Flight's Vision. But, MFV doesn't have the names like that; it has it's own version of the scene with him as 'Pebble Heart'. As seen that we have a controversy section on SotC's page due to the just many errors it has, I believe we should move these pages to the titles we see in DotC/MFV during that scene to more accurately reflect what he + the other two were called by. Thoughts?

yep. the scene from sotc being at the same time as mfv basically confirms it since the concept of the ancient tribe names didnt exist back then. 19:35, March 18, 2019 (UTC)

Secrets of the Clans (page 5) even says it is the 'modern version' of the story, explaining stories change overtime. So basically, it's saying what the modern Clans believe the story is, and not what actually happened. By that, I wouldn't say it's a mistake on the author's/editors per say, but on the Clans not keeping track on names.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  05:22, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

Known Leaders and Medicine Cat Apprentices
I've been in kahoots with some community members I follow on Twitter and they've brought up a concern that I share. On the Clan pages, there is not a list of known leaders, deputies, or medicine cats. While there is a rank list based upon chronological order/succession, this excludes certain cats from Codes of the Clans, such as Owlstar the second and Dovestar. While we do not know their succession or even descriptions, they're still leaders and deserve to be on the Clan page. I do not know if there are any deputies or medicine cats that share this, but those should be included as well. Maybe on the charts adding a row for them on the bottom and put succession unknown on there? Or maybe even doing a "ThunderClan Leader" category or something.

In addition, I've also been asked about medicine cat apprentices being included on the page. Their role in the Clan is different from normal apprentices, and they are tasked with the responsibility of healing the Clan almost immediately. Maybe not by succession, but maybe by who they trained under? Thoughts? 19:27, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

I too, have been thinking about the med cat apprentices for a while now, and I second the idea of giving them their own section. Also the idea of marking down who they trained under? Is awesome. On another note, doing a Thunderclan leader, Riverclan leader, Skyclan leader, etc, would be very helpful. Heck, even dividing up the other roles that that would be neat.Ghobsmacka (talk) 20:18, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Well, we do have this, which is listed on leader. We could start categorizing them as 'ThunderClan leaders' though and slap a DPL to auto-make a displayable list, though. Personally, a MCA column would fit best in the same ways deputies are listed next to their leaders, with a then separate chart for their own listings; more neat.

I've added a couple of options here for grins. I personally think adding a separate column in the medicine cats for their apprentices looks better imo. As for this, it still not a complete list. I think all of the leaders should be listed on the Clan pages because it makes more sense imo and it's all there in one place. 01:02, March 23, 2019 (UTC)