Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

=Discussion=

Brokenstar being blind?
Shouldn't his description of being blind be removed as he has had his blindness restored in the Dark Forest?

 Starry  Hawk Meow... 03:27, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

No. He died blind ouo 09:30, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

So? Not like death means anything anymore. 01:33, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Good point^^. If his sight's been restored, I don't think it's considered part of the description anymore...

But isn't that his afterlife? Shouldn't his description include his description /at death/? Not after, not way before. 21:55, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Longtail's sight was restored after he died; wasn't it? Shouldn't it be the same for Brokenstar? -- Starry  Hawk Meow... 03:36, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Did we remove blindness from Longtail's description? I see no reason to do so with Brokenstar. 23:56, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Longtail's blindness was removed, it looks like. Should we remove it from Brokenstar, too? Jun 27, 2012; 16:04pm

I personally think we should add the blindness part back into Longtail's article, and keep it in Brokenstar's article. -- 17:54, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oh wait, I thought Longtail's was removed for lack of spoilers.... but in that case, I don't know why Brokenstar's is there..... *shrugs* No clue. 23:27, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

But Brokenstar's case of being blind would also cause spoilers. 23:42, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

We got rid of it for Longtail so we should get rid of it for Brokenstar. Sincerely: ChanCharm (Talk) 07:55, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Longtail's failing sight was removed because of spoilers, because it happened after the original series, in FQ, but Brokenstar's blindness was inflicted in Fire and Ice, so it doesn't really count as a spoiler. It's cited and non-spoiler, so I think it should stay. 08:00, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe we should include "formerly blind" in their Brokenstar's (and if you want to agree with me since these pages have spoiler tags, Longtail's) description? 00:10, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

I doubt it...It's still in the afterlife. 18:11, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

If they're not blind anymore, then that's that. Like Shelly said, death doesn't really mean anything anymore and we see them in the afterlife, sight restored. I think it should obviously be mentioned in its respected section but when they're seen dead, state that their sight was restored. 18:22, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Should we add to the Trivia that his sight was restored? 20:08, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

ABout the whole spoiler thing, there are spoiler tags for a reason, if users don't even bother reading the spoiler tags, that's not our fault. But his description is to be kept up-to-date, right? If it is it should be added to his description than. (IMO) 19:45, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Well the problem is that the spoiler tag is below the description, and the description is meant to be spoiler free. Personally, I think we should just move a spoiler tag, it'd make things like this much easier... 05:59, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Moving the spoiler tag wouldn't be that bad of an idea. Pretty much, the entire article is one giant spoiler, so shouldn't the warnings reflect that?

Moving the spoiler tag would work. When I first joined this wiki I always wondered why the spoiler tag was put below the description, as I saw no point in putting it below. Descriptions are never going to be exactly spoiler free so why not move the spoiler tag? o.o 06:38, 01, 09, 2012

I agree with moving the spoiler tag. 17:15, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of moving the spoiler tag. 01:47, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. For one, consistency sake's as it would look odd to have one article with a spoiler at the top, and two, it's not like the spoiler tag is hidden. I mean, it's at the relative top of the page and somewhat sticks out as it's a different color and all. Also, if the reader wants to know more, they can alway look in the history. I think Brokenstar's article is fine as it is. It's portraying the current description we have. 03:34, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I was talking about moving the spoiler tags in general.... like on all the character pages.... it's kind of a pain to have to keep the description spoiler free simply because the spoiler tag is placed a tad too low. That also means we don't have to place to list cites for things like being blind, or Brightheart's scars or things like that, which means we're also not listing all the information we can. I personally think it'd be better to just move the spoiler tags and never have to worry about things having to be spoiler free on there again. 21:15, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Reference Check
So, Paleh and I created this in order to help keep track of references on each character's page due to falsified references. How it's planned to work is when you check an article's references, you will add the current date under the "Last Checked" column next to the correct character you checked. Paleh and I also thought about having users separately join this "sub-project" because some users are unaware of how to do references, or just don't concern themselves about it, so it might be a bit iffy on how they went about it. It's pretty simple, so what does everyone think about it? 17:23, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's a great idea, it'll keep everything organized, and help the wiki as a whole. -- 17:31, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

So we just check every single reference on the entire page? I still think that creating a "verified ref" template would be easiest. That way those looking at the page can see that they're verified without having to look at your subpage. 17:40, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. -- 21:34, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

References are constantly changing such as to an earlier mention or removed due to a false cite or changed to a falsified cite due to a misunderstanding or something. A template wouldn't keep up with those changes. With the subpage, users can look at what references haven't been checked in a while. Also, with a "verified ref" template, what kind of impression would that give off to those users who are looking at this wiki for information, or to Kate? 23:49, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

It would give the impression that we care about the references and want them to be as accurate as possible. 19:57, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

It would also give the impression that despite citing things, we can't always be reliable with our information. Though that's true, we're trying to fix that, and it's not a good rep to have about the site. 00:27, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

I support this idea. Jun 26, 2012; 01:17am

I love this idea, actually...well done. 14:54, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea too. 03:17, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

What about for those of us that don't own every single book? Because some pages do cite references from every book in the main story (OS, NP, PO3, OOTS), and most people don't own or have access to all of them at once. But if they want to use this table, then what are they to do? They can't say the cites are verified if they can't verify every one. It should be fair, and every cite should be checked, not every one on a page all at once. 03:55, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Then perhaps we can have another row in the table where people can mark the books that have been checked, in case they don't have access to them all. I don't know, just an idea. 04:30, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

I also support this idea, I also like both of Loonie and Paleh's ideas. 18:56 Thu Jul 12

This is a good idea, and Paleclaw, I like your idea since some people including myself don't own every book and we can share the checking. Sincerely: ChanCharm (Talk) 08:07, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

This is an excellent idea ^^ 00:19, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

I really like Paleh's idea, it would make references even more accurate. 03:05, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Are we going to put this into action? Also, are we going to add another section to the table? 18:39, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Have we come to a conclusion on this discussion?

-forgot I was still part of this project owo ;.;- anyways I like this idea and I agree on having a new section that mentions what books have been checked. Just a question, once all the books on an article have been checked, would we restart the book-reference check or add the dates for when the different books are checked. Because if we check the books at different times, we won't quite know which book-references need to be updated. (That doesn't really make sense, doesn't it?) 02:34, 19, 08, 2012

Well I think the original idea was something along the lines of us dating the last time checked, then when a while has passed, the article is checked again. Not totally sure though. However, if we use that system, I'd suggest working out a rough time range in which you should check references, and what would be considered too long without checking.

You know.... if we really wanted to make this thorough and not have to recheck things a lot, we could make like a little section rather than a row on the table, and list all the cites on the page, and whether they've been checked or not. Then people rechecking pages can see what's been checked, what hasn't, and what hasn't even been added to this list (and therefore is not checked). But that is quite a bit more work than the original idea, and I'm not sure it's really needed. But I figured I'd just throw that out there. 06:12, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Thrushpelt (TC) and foster family
He was, after all, a foster father to Bluestar's kits and I feel that it should be listed that he was. Jul 23, 2012; 18:05pm 18:05, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. What does everyone else think?--  Featherstorm9678   22:03, July 23, 2012 (UTC)Featherstorm9678

We did it for her, did we not? Thrushpelt was indeed a foster father to Bluefur's kits, I would say.

Yep, I think it should be added. 18:00, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Was it actually confirmed that Thrushpelt was a foster father by say Bluestar herself? I thought everyone in ThunderClan assumed that Thrushpelt was their father but was it ever confirmed? 18:26, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Thrushpelt said that he would act as their father, and to the reader, I think that counts as being a foster father. But to the rest of ThunderClan, he would be acting like a normal father..

Yes, he should. 15:20, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. If we do it, I want to do it. I've added to charcats, erased from charcats, and fixed charcats.--  Featherstorm9678   06:12, July 26, 2012 (UTC)Featherstorm9678

Feather, adding something to an article isn't something you can claim -.- There's five articles that need to be changed; I'm sure we'll be able to handle it. 03:26, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

So, are we adding him as a foster father? 22:34, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Do we?--  Featherstorm9678   01:40, August 4, 2012 (UTC)Featherstorm9678

I'll add it. If it gets removed, -shrugs- oh well.--  Featherstorm9678   01:43, August 4, 2012 (UTC)Featherstorm9678

Done.--<span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#0BB5FF), to(#000000)); -moz-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#0BB5FF), to(#000000));">  Featherstorm9678   01:54, August 4, 2012 (UTC)Featherstorm9678

I think we should have an "okay" on this before we start adding this, that's why I removed it. (IMO) 02:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

You've got an okay from me. Let's see what the other project leads think. Duck, Holly? What about you guys?

You guys have got an OK from me, too. =3 02:06, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

So, can I add it back?--<span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#0BB5FF), to(#000000)); -moz-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#0BB5FF), to(#000000));">  Featherstorm9678   02:19, August 4, 2012 (UTC)Featherstorm9678

Please wait until all the project leads have given their okay.

Firnen (me), says OK. =3--<span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#0BB5FF), to(#000000)); -moz-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#0BB5FF), to(#000000));">  Featherstorm9678   02:22, August 4, 2012 (UTC)Firnenrules9678

Firnen, your not a project lead. Just wait until Hollydapple leaves her opinion. 19:54, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, but are the project leads the one who make decisions for a project? Just because something doesn't get their "okay", does that mean that the proposed change to the project or an article of that project won't happen? Or if they say "okay", it will happen, even though the rest of the community disagrees? If you're going to make changes and it needs to be brought up, then the majority of the community must agree, not just the leads. Btw, just because one is not a lead, does not mean they can't voice their support in something. Since this needed to be brought up for the agreement of others, then at least wait until the majority of the community says their support or against comments. -.- Project leads are handed administrative duties in the project, and they also play a role in keeping sure that any arguments need to be put out, not be the ones who must say the "okay" for a proposed change to happen. But Featherstorm, don't be so quick to add something to an article without the community's support (if that proposed change to the article has been needed to be brought up).

Anyways, I don't think this should be added to the article. It was never confirmed that he was a foster father, even though he said he would act as their father. A five year-old kid can act as a father for a game, but that would not mean s/he is a foster father. Same with Thrushpelt, who knows? He might've even been playing game, for all we know. 14:31, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about them not saying their opinion. I was talking about things being finalized without the opinions of the leaders of the project. Featherstorm was jumping the gun, and that's why I said wait. >.>

Thrushpelt wasn't playing a game with the kits. I don't remember the exact thing, but it had nothing to do with a game. o.o He said something about treating the kits as his own or something like that...

I'm pretty sure he wasn't playing a game, but there is no exact cite to support that he wasn't playing a game. And sorry, I probably misunderstood with the lead thing. 19:44, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

He was the foster father. He wasn't playing a game. Here are some quotes that prove it >.>... You know how I feel about you Bluefur, I'd do my best to make you happy, I promise.And I'll love your kits as though they were my own.-Thrushpelt BP pg. 456 another shall we,... ''I thought Thrushpelt was our father. That's what Runningkit told me.''-Stonekit BP pg. I can't remember 8D more... ''You can tell the Clan I'm the father, if you want. I mean, if it makes things easier.-Thrushpelt BP pg. 456 one more... Her faithful friend had kept her secret till the very end, only ever speaking of the kits with the fond grief of a father.-Bluestar BP pg. 505--Firnenrules9678


 * Did any of those quotes say exactly //foster// father? 07:00, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't have to say specifically foster. I don't think that term was ever actually used. All we need is a cite that clearly says he acted as their father, not just let the Clan assume it. 06:24, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I think there is enough information to call him their foster father. As Paleh said, we just need a cite that states that he acted like their father, and I think one of those quotes could work as one. o.e <span style="">03:45, 19, 08, 2012

Honestly I'm not sure it is.... as I said, we need a quote that says he acted as father, not just that the clan assumed he was. In all of those quotes it says nothing about him really acting as father. All of them are about other people assuming and him letting them. The closest for what we need is where he said he'd love her kits as his own. Though I'm still not sure whether that's good enough... 23:49, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I can try to find a quote; surely it would be enough? -- 06:19, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

If you can find a quote that states he acted like their father, than we could use that as a cite. <span style="">03:13, 08, 09, 2012

Cody ~ Possible loner?
I've been wondering for a while now if Cody, from Dawn, would be classified as a loner for her time in ThunderClan, while not an official member? Comments? Thoughts? Opinions? <span style="">05:19 Sun Aug 19

I don't think she would, because she was taken against her will, she didn't want to be a loner, and she never expressed an interest in being anything besides a kittypet. I hope I made sense. 05:23, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

She couldn't have been taken from her Twoleg nest against her will. She left it willingly I think she said every night, expressing the fact that she didn't want to be just a kittypet. Obviously she didn't like being inside all the time, which is saying that she didn't like being in the nest sometimes, which shows that she obviously had the ideas of a being wild cat, but the only thing that made her leave ThunderClan was the fact that she didn't want her Twolegs worrying and that she wasn't a fan of blood and gore. <span style="">09:23 Mon Aug 20

Yes, but in the series almost every kittypet is curious, there are a lot of instances whee kittypets wander from their nests. Also, I meant she was taken from her walk against her will. owo 23:46, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I always saw her as a kittypet temporarily in the care of ThunderClan. She's still a kittypet; just because she was taken, and lived outside of her nest for a brief amount of time, doesn't make her a loner. In fact, I think that's the same reason we didn't give the Clan cats who were captured by those same Twolegs kittypet images. They were taken against their will.

In my opinion, she wasn't a loner. Like Ducksplash said, many kittypets wander from their nest. Firestar did, he was over the age of six moons, so he would count as a loner but he wasn't, he was just a curious kittypet at the time. She was taken against her will, so she didn't choose to be a loner, she was just a kittypet still. 15:34, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well actually... She wandered from her nest and removed her collar, both before she got captured. Does it actually say anywhere why she did that? I seem to remember something about her not liking being with her twolegs, but then, I don't remember that book very well and don't have it to check. 06:03, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Toggle thing for Lilykit?
We used the toggle for Mapleshade, whose description contradicted from tortoiseshell to ginger and white, so should we for Lilykit? She was most recently described as tabby, but has also in TLH been called a tortie (again) So should we use it for her? 22:00, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

That's what we decided to do for her, however, since her tortoiseshell description is used first and is used more frequent (1 extra time) I think her description should be changed to tortie. 19:18, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Bluestar's Death
Recently, the cause of death on Bluestar's article has been thrown into question.

I'm not here to fight or argue. I'm here to get opinions.

I'm of the opinion that she drowned and that that's the information we should display on her page. She went under and stayed there too long, took water into her lungs that deprived her brain and blood of oxygen, and she died because of it. Put simply, though she died on dry land, she drowned, even if it was dogs that dragged her down and shock may have been part of what killed her. But going on that logic, we could throw into question every cause of death. We could put in that Halftail was killed by Fireheart instead of smoke inhalation.

So, opinions? What information on her death should we display on her page? Killed by water or drowned? 02:15, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

This is on her talk page as well, Shelly. So, I'll place what I put there here as well.
 * Why do people keep saying she drowned? She didn't. If you guys re-read what happened, it wasn't just the water that killed her. To say she drowned is an assumption, because there were also multiple other factors that played a major part in her death, including old age, the dogs, and the pressure of the water itself. She fell off a cliff, for StarClan's sake. I don't think her death should say "drowned", because that's clearly not what happened. Read the prologue of Bluestar's Prophecy again. If she drowned, would she have been able to speak or anything because of the water in her lungs? I don't think so. If her mind had been deprived of blood for too long and she died because of that, she wouldn't have been able to speak, let alone apologize to her kits. 

I am under the assumption that she died of complications, not only from the water, but from her fall and old age. I'm not sure how you would word that exactly, but drowning comes from not being able to breathe, and she was able to breathe in a few gasps, and like Cloudy said, speak a few words. I mean, if she was a younger cat, she may very well have not died from that ordeal. So let's compromise and find a way to word it as complications from these multiple factors, if that's what we come to an agreement on ^^ 03:38, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Also I'd like to point out that drowning happens while you're in the water and unable to breathe, not on land after it's been established you can talk and your lungs are clear kthxbye.

We don't know her exact cause of death, and there was something I believe Shelly said we would never do when I suggested cause of death: Assume. "Killed by water" is actually really dumb if you think about it. Did the water grow claws and cut her throat open? She did not drown, so therefore she was not killed by water. I say we remove it altogether. 03:42, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

She didn't drown, and the water most definately didn't suddenly grow teeth and bite her throat. What could have happened was a simple case of heart failure from being under the pressure of water too long. Contributing fators would've been old age, deppression, anxiety, etc. but in the end, her heart might not have been able to survive the pressure of the water. Sure, she managed to get out and speak for a bit, but remember, she was very weak and if memory serves, she was panting and gasping, a sign of a heart attack or heart failure. Her heart couldn't withstand the water pressure, and so, imho, that's why she died. <span style="">09:49 Tue Aug 28

As Berry said, there could have been heart complications involved with her death. She maybe also could've been very stressed out. So, basically, I'm with Berry here.

I'm inclined to believe that while she showed symptoms of a heart attack, she could have also had a panic attack too. She was under a lot of stress at the end of her life and suddenly, there she was, in the water which she had been told would destroy her. She also had enough energy to try to swim again. So most of the most fatal factors that played a part in her death (e.g panic attacks, shutting down of body systems) were related to water. Of course, other factors contributed, but you could just refer to them as "other factors" as there are too many to list. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; color:#571B7E; background:#2554C7; border:2px solid #151B54; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em; color:#151B54;"> Millie  Purple   is   Perfection  10:24, August 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Let's try and not complicate her death. Sure other factors played in, but we can scrutinize every other death and put a capacious list of factors that went played in their death when a simple answer would suffice. In fact, you can claim that being born played into someone's death and why not list every scratch they had in their life since somehow, I'm sure someone can find a way how it relates to their death. Now, yes, I'm being hyperbolic, but honestly heart complications, old age, water pressure, and the likes? Unless everyone actually wants to throw every single death into question and dissect it like a fetal pig, I highly recommend narrowing it down to one reason.


 * I also would like to kill the assumption that it was heart failure or a heart attack. Words and phrases like "might", "to believe", "in my honest opinion" or the likes show that it's completely and utterly questionable and unless we get an author's confirmation, I completely disagree to adding it in. Plus, "panting and gasping" could just mean she was out of breath when she ran head on into the dogs or couldn't breath underwater.


 * While drowning may or may not be the reason we chose, it does seem like the lack of oxygen killed her whereas it could be disproved by the fact that she talked. I'm much more inclined to list something like "over fatigue". 22:53, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Well honestly, I'm not sure we should really put anything there. IT was a bunch of factors combined that killed her, and there's no specification whatsoever that says what eventually was the real cause of death. Unless it's said somewhere how she died, then I don't think we should actually list any information. Maybe at most something like "Multiple complications" or something, but to single anything out would be assuming, just as we are for drowning. 05:50, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should put "Multiple factors", or something like what Paleh suggested. Or, perhaps we could just leave it blank and add somewhere, like in the Trivia perhaps, that there are too many factors that contributed to her death in order to make a proper decision as to what the /actual/ cause of death is.

Family Tree Idea
I've been meaning to suggest this for a while now, but never got around to it. I think something like this would be quite useful. I've seen confusion over the fact the trees are often cut off without much explanation, since we obviously can't fit all characters on the trees. However I think doing it like that, and linking to the trees with the other lines would be helpful, rather than cutting them off completely with no other link or anything. I think this would make it more organized and clear, and help make it easier to know what cats to add to the trees and what should be left off, since you simply link to another tree. What do you guys think? Whoo I finally suggested it! ;w;  07:01, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

I quite like the idea. It's better than just cutting it off and users could find more information on the family tree easier. I support it. x3 <span style="">07:26, 31, 08, 2012

I love this idea, when I first joined I wondered why it didn't go on and now it can... owo 01:52, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

I support this idea. x) I mean, really, usually each character has a big family tree, but it can't fit on the page. So this would be helpful.

I like this idea as well. Since a lot of the trees are pretty big, like Ferncloud's, I think this would be an amazing idea to add to the family trees. They'd finally fit on the page. x3

I like it. They'd fit and it actually makes pages neater. 20:54, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Deputy
It's been a long time coming, but I've decided that Ducksplash shall be PC's new deputy. Congratulations, Ducksplash. 22:33, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

And he deserves it, too. He's always on top of things in the project. Congrats, Duck.

Thank you! I'm so honored that I'd even be considered. I'll try my best. =D 22:38, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations Duck! 23:02, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats Duck! :D 23:18, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Whoo go Ducksauce!! You deserve it. Congrats! 8D 01:52, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats Duck! I wish you the best of luck during your deputyship. 20:12, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations Ducksplash! You'll make a great deputy. Good luck! You are an amazing contributer to this project (and to the wiki) so don't think you're not qualified and what not. You so are. 21:32, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats Duck! You are really deserving and don't doubt yourself, you are an awesome, hardworking member of the project and the wiki. Best of luck and good job on becoming deputy! 8DD <span style="">07:42, 05, 09, 2012

Marshscar as Leader
I believe that his leader charart and title should be removed. The book states nothing about Marshscar succeeding Ripplestar. He was never shown with a leader name, and for all we know, he may have died before receiving it. The title is pretty much an assumption and I feel it should be removed. -- 19:01, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree. As Starry said he could've died before receiving his name, or something could've happened that prevented him from making him official leader. We are just assuming that he was named Marshstar, etc, so I too think it should be removed. <span style="">07:12, 10, 09, 2012

He was still leader though as tradition. Ripplestar did die, and since Marshscar was deputy, he would have then become leader. While he was never shown with a leader name, that doesn't mean that he wasn't leader. Once the leader dies, the deputy automatically is leader name or not unless some revolt happens which in this case it didn't. We're not exactly assuming as we are applying the traditional method of the leader/deputy relations to this particular case as it fits. 02:26, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

'Teldy, basically said what I was thinking.^ He was the cat with the most power, his leader died, but he still became leader, even if he didn't get the name. Even if some freak accident happened and he died soon after, he was still leader for a few seconds. =3 02:49, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Same with... Brightwhisker? It was never said that she was leader, but deputies are automatically leader of the Clan even if they don't have their lives. 02:54, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Loonie, 'Teldy, and Duck. Ripplestar died, so that means Marshscar succeeded him, and was, in the literal sense of the word, leader of his Clan. Even if he didn't have his lives or name, he was still in charge of his Clan.

Mmhm. Even if it was for a short period of time, and even if it was never made official by giving him his nine lives, as soon as the leader dies, the deputy is leader of their Clan. Doesn't matter if they haven't gotten their name yet, they're still in charge. So yes, he was leader regardless of whether he ended up getting his proper name or not. 03:04, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but guys... being in charge of the Clan doesn't make you leader. Didn't we decide that when we decided not to give Graystripe leader credentials on his page? Because, by that logic, every time a leader goes off somewhere and has their deputy look after the Clan the deputy should be given a leader listing on their page. A cat has to officially assume the position of leader and be called one to be counted as one. I believe Brightwhisker was, but Marshscar wasn't as far as I remember. And we've had a case in canon in which a deputy has not been granted leader status upon their leader's death. For all we know, Marshscar could have been hit by a falling branch as soon as the story was over and died. We can't assume he took over as leader, for the same reason that we can't assume that every warrior ever mentioned was at one point an apprentice. 21:22, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but Graystripe's case was different, his leader was still alive, while Marshscar's wasn't and, we have to go by what the book says, and the book never says that any uprising happened when he was mentioned, so he was, even for a few moments, going by what the book says. =3 21:25, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

And Mudclaw's isn't the same case, either. He was stripped of his deputyship by Tallstar on his deathbed. /Onewhisker/ was deputy upon Tallstar's passing, not Mudclaw.

Alright, alright, I concede. 21:41, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Then why is there a redirect from Marshstar to Marshscar. We don't know he actually received his leader name, so I think that title should be removed. <span style="">06:47, 16, 09, 2012

The redirect is because a while ago, we had a discussion about changing his pagename from Marshstar ro Marshscar, as he was never seen with his leader title, and the redirect was automatically added when his page was moved. =3 13:24, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Willowshine
Alright, in Mistystar's Omen, Mistystar temporarily dismisses Mothwing as medicine cat when she discovers that Mothwing doesn't believe in StarClan. Since we're going with Marshscar having been leader if only for a few pages, could the same be said of Willowshine? She was, if only for a bit, the sole medicine cat in RiverClan. And Mothwing was in rank-limbo at the time, too, but there's no need to do anything about that. 21:41, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I guess that she would, with her being the only medicine cat at the time. I literally just finished reading the section where this happens. 21:43, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. If Mistystar actually dismisses Mothwing, Willowshine is automatically head medicine cat.

Yup. However I have something to bring up about MCA's in general.... hold on. *goes to start separate discussion* 04:08, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

True, she was the sole medicine cat at the time. <span style="">06:50, 16, 09, 2012

Medicine Cat Apprentices
Alright so this is another thing I've been meaning to bring up for a while. Medicine Cat Apprentices who earn their full name, but their mentor's still alive, should really be listed as full Medicine Cats in their charcat and also get full MC images. It's been stated multiple times in the book that despite having a mentor till their mentor dies, they are full medicine cats. That's why they have a ceremony at all. Now, I know names can't really b e used to judge this, since warriors have become MCAs with full warrior names many times, however with all the MCAs we currently have that had their ceremony, but their mentor's still alive, should get their MC name listed in their charcat and get images (Willowshine, Frecklewish, and Flametail as far as I can find).

So thoughts? Comments? 04:13, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, because they are listed in the allegiances as apprentices, even though they already have their full name. =3 12:32, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

That's because they do still have a mentor though. However they've completed their training and were given their full name to prove it. That ceremony's not there for nothing, and they are full medicine cats after the ceremony. They don't stay apprentices till their mentor dies, they're just listed as such since they do have a mentor. 14:04, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

But if they have a mentor, then they're still apprentices.(imho) 20:32, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

they're apprentices to their mentors, yes. But they are full medicine cats, and I think they should be treated as such. 21:36, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

I, personally, think that we need a cite saying that medicine cat apprentices become full medicine cats, when they get their full name, even without their mentor dying. 21:44, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ok I'm not gonna copy and paste it all, so just look here. Quite a few instances with different cites where it mentions apprentices receiving full responsibility after the ceremony and getting their full name. 23:04, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I just read one, and now I agree, in the example that I just read Leafpool clearly states that, an apprentice can take on full responsibilities even when their mentor is still alive, so now I agree with Paleh, I think they should be classified as full medicine cats. =3 23:18, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

They are given the ceremony so that they can be given a name while the mentor is still alive. I can't remember an exact example, but wasn't there a time where Brightheart took on the responsibilities of medicine cat until one of them came back? Should she be classified as a medicine cat too? And I think I read in Bluestar's Prophecy that there can only be one medicine cat at a time, making the cat their apprentice even though they have been given a name. Think of it, if an apprentice didn't already have their name and as soon as the medicine cat died, they'd have to be pulled back from StarClan to give them a name, or even if another cat had to do that, they'd be pretty preoccupied with their new arrival. Makes sense for them to give them a name while they're alive. Also, that example that what if a Clan's sole medicine cat dies and StarClan would have to train the cat, that cat is still an apprentice even if they're the only cat with training. Idk if that made any sense, but that's what I feel. 22:23, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Brightheart didn't receive medicine cat training, nor got a ceremony. The apprentices did. That's why we're even talking about it.

And look at the cites on the page. It says that they have full responsibility/are full medicine cats. They don't have to wait till their mentor dies. And even if what you're saying about why they're doing it is true, you need proof. I for one have never heard that mentioned anywhere in the book. They don't say "We're giving you your name now so StarClan doesn't have to deal with it when I die" or anything of the sort, they say "We're giving you your name because you've completed your training and are now a full medicine cat". What you're saying contradicts all the proof on why they have the ceremonies and all that stuff. I'm sorry but I don't agree at all. 22:45, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I can't words things right >.< I'll try proving my point by finding a cite. However, we haven't come to a conclusion on this discussion so people shouldn't be reserving their MC images. (only three people have given their input, including me) 16:48, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

As was pointed out to me after I started this discussion, they have actually been listed and cited as full medicine cats for a long time before I started this discussion. I didn't realize that however. This should technically have been brought to PCA since the names were already listed on the page, however I didn't realize that at the time. But since clearly not everyone's in agreement, we can't close the discussion yet. However I see no problem with reserving the images. they have the cite on the page, and we have cites in the book saying that they are full medicine cats after the ceremony. Since it's been on the page that long and we have proof of both things, I see no reason why we shouldn't be allowed to reserve the images. 20:09, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Mothwing
Since apparently there are those that are in doubt as to whether or not Mothwing should be counted as an elder, I'm here to present the following passages from Mistystar's Omen directly.

'From chapter 6.'' Mistystar privately dismisses Mothwing but allows her to stay in the MC den for the time being. However, Mothwing is still dismissed, and she allows her to stay in the den for the time being to allow the Clan to mourn the loss of Leopardstar before losing Mothwing.'''

“Willowshine, from now on you will be RiverClan’s sole medicine cat,” she announced. Her heart pounded, and she dug her claws into the earth to stop her legs from shaking. “Mothwing will no longer live with you in this den.” “That’s not fair!” cried Willowshine. “I still have so much to learn!” “StarClan will help you,” Mistystar mewed. She looked at Mothwing, who was staring at her in dismay. “I’ve had enough time to think about this. Mothwing, you have served RiverClan for many seasons, and we are grateful. As an elder, you will be well cared for. No cat needs to know about. . . anything.” Mothwing stepped forward. “Mistystar, I know you want to punish me—” “This is not about punishment!” Mistystar interrupted. “This is about doing what is right for the Clan!” Mothwing twitched one ear. “Don’t you think the Clan has suffered enough change recently, with the loss of Leopardstar? Let them come to terms with that before you make them accept something else. You are not the only cat who has their best interests at heart, Mistystar. I’ll announce my retirement at the next Gathering, but not before.” Her blue eyes flashed briefly with anger. Mistystar gritted her teeth. She must see that I have no choice in this! She cannot be a medicine cat if she doesn’t believe in StarClan! “Very well,” she hissed. “You may stay here for the rest of this moon.” She started to back away, but stopped as Mothwing moved toward her. Placing her muzzle close to Mistystar’s ear, she murmured, “I am so sorry.”

From chapter 10. Mistystar publicly dismisses and sends her to the elders' den.

yowled, “Mothwing! Quick!” Mothwing’s golden head poked out from the elders’ den. “What is it?” Scraps of moss clung to her fur, and Mistystar guessed she had been building herself a nest. “Reedwhisker is hurt!” Mallownose told her, but Mothwing was already pushing her way out of the branches and running across the clearing. The warriors let Reedwhisker slip gently to the ground. Mothwing stared at the gaping wound. “We need cobweb, comfrey, marigold, watermint,” she began. “Robinwing, fetch some soaked moss. Do I smell dog?” “Yes,” mewed Mallownose. “He was bitten by at least one, if not two.” “In that case, we need to get this wound as clean as possible.” Mothwing ran her paw lightly along Reedwhisker’s spine. “I don’t think anything’s broken, but let’s keep him still anyway.” Mistystar stepped forward. Her heart was pounding so hard she could hardly speak. But she reached out with one paw and moved Mothwing away from Reedwhisker. “Let Willowshine do this,” she mewed. Her Clanmates stared at her. “Mistystar, what are you doing?” Graymist exclaimed. “Mothwing is our medicine cat!” “Not anymore,” Mistystar replied softly. Mothwing blinked. “Are you sure you mean this? Reedwhisker is very, very sick.” “Willowshine knows what to do,” Mistystar whispered. “StarClan will help her.” Mothwing flinched, then turned away. “I’ll get her,” she mewed. “I don’t understand!” growled Robinwing. “What’s going on?” “I know what I’m doing,” Mistystar insisted. Willowshine raced up. “Mothwing said Reedwhisker was hurt!” She stopped and stared down at the deputy, whose wound was staining the earth beneath him as scarlet as a sunset. “Great StarClan!” Mistystar lifted her head high. “I know you can heal him, Willowshine. Please, help him.” Willowshine opened her mouth to protest, then shut it with a snap and began examining the injury. Mistystar gazed down at her son. I won’t lose you too, she vowed. I know you need StarClan’s help to survive this, and Mothwing can’t give you that. I’m doing the right thing; I must be. A crowd of cats gathered around Reedwhisker. Mothwing brought herbs to Willowshine, then left. Mistystar heard murmurs ripple around the Clan, ranging from puzzled to angry. “Where’s Mothwing going?” “How can she turn her back on an injured Clanmate? Surely that’s breaking the medicine code!” “Mistystar said she wasn’t the medicine cat anymore.” “What? In the name of StarClan, why not?”

Even if Mothwing didn't get the ceremony, she was dismissed and sent to live as an elder, even if only briefly. We have leaders with leader credentials with less verification that they actually held the rank. 19:47, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Uh, is this really necessary? I'm pretty sure you copied out like a page when all I found was one line. One line is usually all it takes. And I really don't think you need to post this if I never brought up anything. 20:04, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Was it necisarry to tell people that I should have begged PC's permission to add cited information to an article? I cited chapter ten because that's the chapter in which she was publically dismissed. I'm sorry you got confused, but I will continue adding cited info to articles without checking with PC first, thank you.

But as for adding all of this info here, I did so in order to thoroughly cover my bases and make sure no one was in doubt of her havbing been an elder. I'm not here to fight. I just don't like to be accused of jumping the gun when I didn't. 20:17, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I realize that sounded bitter. Really, I'm just trying to cover bases. I'm glad it's been cleared up. 20:22, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

=Nominations=

Beechfur (RC) ~ Silver Nomination
I expanded Twilight a few weeks ago or so and I believe that he is ready for silver status. 17:46, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

Any quotes? 17:49, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

I just looked through the parts in Twilight that he appeared; I did not find any quotes that he spoke as well as quotes that described him. I'll check Dark River. -- 17:53, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

I just checked Dark River and did not find any quotes. -- 17:55, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

There has to be //some// form of a quote you can use. I've read Twilight multiple times, and I know it's possible... What about a quote describing how weak he was and that he recovered? Something is a lot better than nothing.

There are indeed quotes described how weak he was. Should I add those? -- 18:11, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, please. owo 18:12, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

I added two quotes. -- 18:37, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

Can you add a main quote, then possibly find one more quote for the bottom? 23:23, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Try and separate the second paragraph in Twilight. <span style="">07:53, 05, 09, 2012

Still working on this? 04:45, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I apologize. I will start working on the article. =) -- 02:52, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Have the quotes been found and added? 21:31, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Susan - Silver Nomination
Comments? 01:46, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

If you can, elaborate the section on Starlight, and if possible, try to find another quote.

Finished. 22:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

CBV? 21:31, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Vote's Up! 22:33, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Rage ~ Silver Nomination
Rage teh boar ouo Comments? <span style="">06:17 Fri Sep 7

Can you possibly re-word the last paragraph? 03:11, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

If you can, add another quote.

Still Working? 12:19, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yep. I had trouble finding a quote. There aren't many good ones xP I couldn't do anything about that paragraph though, sorry. <span style="">12:31 Wed Sep 12

CBV? 21:31, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Vote's Up! 22:33, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Fury ~ Silver Nomination
Fury teh boar owo Comments? <span style="">06:17 Fri Sep 7

Can the battle between Fleetfoot and Fury be detailed anymore? I haven't read Secrets of the Clans in quite a while, so I don't remember what's mentioned.

Could you also add another quote? 21:14, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Still Working? 12:19, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yep. I couldn't do anything about the battle, as it isn't actually seen. All that is said is:
 * "Fleetfoot and Fury fought on the bank of the river for two nights and two days. Finally, exhausted..." Fury dies.

I added a quote, though ouo <span style="">12:39 Wed Sep 12

CBV? 21:31, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Vote's Up! 22:33, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Frisk - Silver Nomination
I expanded and detailed his history and added the only quote I felt showed his personality. Comments? 03:37, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

CBV? 21:31, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Vote's Up! 22:33, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Fritz - Silver Nomination
Expanded, detailed, all quotes pertaining to his personality have been added, comments? 04:45, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Spiderpelt - Silver Nomination
I think the article's alright. Not much quotes though... Comments? <span style="">06:43, 09, 09, 2012

Mothpelt - Silver Nomination
The history looks good and there's quotes, so, comments? =) 02:51, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Brick ~ Silver Nomination
Well, this is one of the few bronze articles left. Though I can't find anything to add, really. 15:44, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Anymore quotes, and please cite him being in BloodClan. =) 20:18, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I'll see what I can do. Gotta hit the library first. 22:49, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Sharpclaw (SC)- Silver Nomination
I got a bunch of books from the library. So, comments? 19:13, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Please, expand all of the history, he was a very major character, especially in SkyClan's Destiny. =) 20:17, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Still working? 22:23, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Molepaw (NP) ~ Silver Nomination
I'm going to attempt to find a few quotes for him, and attempt to expand. But for such a minor character, it's pretty good.

Can you add all of the books in his history into the book appearences section in his charcat? 20:19, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Well, he doesn't actually appear. He's only mentioned. Should they really be added? I always thought that section was for the books a character physically appears in.

Woops, sorry I thought it was for any character who was mentioned, but I checked a few other articles and it wasn't in the charcat. Sorry. 20:44, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

No worries, Duck. It /can/ be a little confusing. Anyways, I expanded what I could for the history, and added in a few quotes. I had a rough time finding a main one, so I just stuck with what Cinderheart said in Fading Echoes.

Stonestar ~ Silver Nomination
I'll go through the history and see if I can find some quotes in a bit. Comments? 20:57, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Stoneteller (NP) ~ Silver Nomination
I like my Tribe cats, what can I say? Comments?

Can you expand everything besides Cats of The Clans? 21:06, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

I can give it a shot. However, I'm unsure about Secrets of the Clans. Just give me a bit and I'll have it done.

Okay, I expanded everything but Cats of the Clans, and expanded on the one quote that was there. Should I try and find a different one for his main one? I mean, I like it, but, I'd like to know if others think there's a better one suited for him.

Could you try? I like the main quote, but honestly it's just him introducing himself and tells nothing of his personality. 19:21, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

I removed that quote, actually. It shows nothing about him, aside from his name. I got a new main quote and added another to the Quotes section.

Primrosepaw ~ Silver Nomintion
I already love her 8DD Comments? <span style="">06:36 Fri Sep 14

Can anything else be added to the summary for Mistystar's Omen? she has such a pretty name...

Done :3 I know right? <span style="">06:22 Sat Sep 15

Stonetooth ~ Silver Nomination
His article looks fine to me. There aren't any more quotes. Comments? 22:47, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

If possible, please remove the direct quote, and expand Night Whispers. 23:22, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Vinetail ~ Silver Nomination
Article is expanded to the max and he has no more quotes. 22:54, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Perchkit - Silver Nomination
History looks good and I don't think there are any more quotes. Comments? 16:18, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Pikepaw (MO) - Silver Nomination
I'm going to try and find a quote. Comments? 16:18, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Snooky ~ Silver Nomination
Comments? Great StarClan, that name. xD

Can you maybe add another quote? 23:02, September 17, 2012 (UTC)