Warriors Wiki talk:Characters

Willowbreeze - kittypet
I think Willowbreeze needs a kittypet rank. It was clear that she lived the life of a kittypet for sometime. If Tallstar got a kittypet rank for staying with the twolegs for a little time, she should too. *shrugs* 09:48, March 8, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you, but let's see what others think. 23:05, March 8, 2015 (UTC)

I think both of them shouldn't be kittypets, I mean, none of them were really kittypets, they were just prisoners and Tallstar only ever got into the house because he needed medical attention. 00:44, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

Tallstar stayed inside the house for a fairly decent period of time, accepted their help, and basically lived there with Jake for a bit. If we gave Jake a loner/rogue image for living the life of a loner and rogue, then what makes Tallstar any different?

I disagree. Willowbreeze did not willingly stay with Twolegs. Qualify how long she "lived the life of a kittypet", because from my understanding, it was maybe a day if not less. 02:06, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

Tallstar did not willingly stay with the twolegs either, the twolegs only ever captured him to cure his bellyache, if he gets his kittypet rank, then Willowbreeze should, since the twoleg's intention there was clearly to capture her and keep her as their house cat. However, I don't think any of them should get their ranks, because they were never kittypets. 02:54, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

Graystripe nevet stayed willingly. He got the KP image because of how long he stayed, I think.

Graystripe was considered their house cat, and he lived the life as a kittypet and was considered one. Tallstar didn't, all he did was to recieve care from a Twoleg and sleep in a kittypet bed, for the whole time, he wanted to escape, and wasn't really considered a kittypet by anyone. It's basically repeating Willowbreeze, she was captured, and lived the life of a kittypet too for a short while. If Tallstar gets his rank, then she should, because the situation she was in fits Tallstar's situation perfectly. I don't think either should get their ranks, because they were never actually kittypets. 03:53, March 9, 2015 (UTC)

do we even know the twolegs intended to make her a kittypet? all they did was put her in a cage. they werent even in a house or anything, and they could have intended to euthanise her for all we know. i cant speak for tllstar because i never read his SE, but for willowbreeze i dont think she should get one.

If Willowbreeze gets one for Twolegs capturing her/caring for her briefly, then Leafpool, Brightheart, Owl Eyes, Pebble Heart, and Sparrow Fur would get them as well, but they were never official kittypets and so should not receive a kittypet rank. 20:32 Mon Mar 9 2015

Official or unofficial, they're treated as kittypets, I think they get it. 06:32, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

how on earth is being stuffed into a cage being treated as a kittypet? 06:37, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Neither Tall or Willow should get it, imho. 07:45, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm... If she doesn't get this rank, I think Tall shouldn't have either, tbh. I agree with burnt. 10:29, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I doubt she'd be considered a kittypet. Like Skt said- stuffed into a cage isn't being a kittypet. Also, she didn't stay there for very long. Idk about Tall, however. 15:27, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Tallstar got it, I believe, because he fits the qualifications for a kittypet- it's not that he is one, it's because he fit it. I think there's a list somewhere (not sure where it is off the top of my head) that determines this.. I'll see if I can find it.

Well then basically Willow should get it- she was living as one too. She ate kittypet food and played with their house folk. I'm sorry, but I still don't think Tall should get it, just because he slept in a kittypet bed one night and got stuck in the house because they wanted to treat his bellyache doesn't mean he should get the rank. 00:07, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Being held captive isn't the same thing as being kittypet, though? She was forced to do those things, and unlike Graystripe, wasn't there for an extended period of time.

Okay, I just checked CP...and she was with them for maybe a day, if that. Sorry, but I really don't think that's long enough to be considered a kittypet.

If Tall gets it, she should, imo. Tall was forced to do those things too, and he still got it. Regardless, I still think none of them should get it. They were never kittypets. 00:33, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Agreeing with Burnt. 00:23, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

Is it agreed or not? 04:54, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Tallstar was treated like a kittypet, he was kept after he recovered from that food poisoning, and the Twoleg definitely planned to keep him longer. Didn't it say in a guide book that RiverClan cats are sometimes taken by Twolegs to become kittypets? That sounds like Willowbreeze's case, it's just she was rescued. 05:29, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Do we know that? We don't know what the twoleg was thinking. Being captured for medical care isn't a kittypet. 06:20, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Agreeing with Burntclaw. We can't just assume the Twolegs wanted them to become kittypets. Neither of them should get the rank. Being captured for a day or two doesn't make you a kittypet. 12:38, April 19, 2015 (UTC)

Is it agreed that they both don't get kittypet ranks or something? 07:57, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

No it isn't, we ned more opinions. 11:56, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

I think they both get kittypet ranks. They were treated like kittypets, (kept in a house, fed food, Talltail using the litterbox) so they were kittypets. 22:04, April 26, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly- they fit the qualifications. It didn't matter if they were considered actual kittypets or not. They lived as such (even for a brief period of time), and even Leafstar got one, despite not considering herself a kittypet in the least.

Uh Leafstar was called a kittypet, but they weren't- they were just shut up in a house for a day or two... 08:15, April 27, 2015 (UTC)

willowbreeze was never seen with food or anything else, if I remember correctly. she was only seen in a cage, therefore she at the least shouldn't get an image. 08:21, April 27, 2015 (UTC)

Whatever the Twoleg's intentions were, she lived the life of a kittypet for a bit. I think that counts. 20:36, May 3, 2015 (UTC)

She lived the life of a kittypet for under 24 hours too. I don't think it's entirely fair to compare her situation with that of Talltail's. Perhaps he may get the rank (although that's a pretty different discussion), but I disagree for Willowbreeze to receive it. 00:43, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

I think she should get a kittypet rank. Emberstar   Floating in the stars of ember 04:35, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

Is there anymore comments? I don't think this is resolved. 23:07, June 15, 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with this. She shouldn't get a rank. Cats actually have to have stayed with the Twolegs for more than 24 hours imo. Storm &#9835;  19:51, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

The time a cat stays doesn't mean anything. We need to look at the intentions of the Twolegs here. Did they take her? Yes. Did she live the life of a kittypet for even a brief period of time? Yes. Does that count? We just don't know.

I read somewhere that Twolegs admired RiverClan cats, and often kidnapped them and forced them to become kittypets. It was in Cats of the Clans I think...? 09:05, June 18, 2015 (UTC)

A cat stuffed in a cage is not a kittypet. 06:31, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

we stil dont know what their intentions actually were, and yeah, shes in a cage, like the cats in dawn. they definitely weren't considered kittypets. 07:49, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, lets review the book a little, as I am certain she did more than sit in a cage.


 * …watched helplessly as the Twoleg carried Willowbreeze back toward its pelt-den. Its kit followed, yelping happily. Pg 296

This doesn't show much, but the child is obviously happy with a cat in their parents care. I would be too if I was upset beorehand (the kit tripped over before) then mum or dad found a cat to care for a play with.


 * Hailstar: Did they hurt her?
 * Crookedjaw: They just carried her to their den.
 * Hailstar: They didn’t harm her at all? Did they seem angry? Pg 299

Even Hailstar figures out the Twolegs will not and never did hurt Willowbreeze.


 * Narrator: …crouching around something in the middle of the den. Crookedjaw stretched up and peered over the nearest pile, his ears flat, eyes wide. The Twolegs were dangling a thread into a square box nest. Familiar pale tabby paws flapped frantically at the thread, trying to catch it as the Twolegs twitched it and pulled it out of reach.
 * Crookedjaw: I can see her! They’ve got her in some sort of trap and they’re teasing her. Pg 306

Twolegs are obviously using a cat toy, or a piece of string to play with Willowbreeze. It later described the box den close enought to a cardboard box.


 * Twolegs were bursting out of the dens all over the meadow, flashing lights and howling. Pg 309

I would be desperate too if the cat you just found and took in escaped. I am pretty sure they mean't for her to be a kittypet, and the pelt-dens or whatever Willowbreeze was in seemed temporary. I think they are tents. Maybe she was put in there until Twolegs could move back to their home? 07:56, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

and yet how do you know they werent doing anything to the cat just to keep the kid happy?? we arent 100% sure of what they wanted, shes still not a kittypet if shes in a cage in a tent, of all things. and shes definitely still feral. its not like graystripe where he was semi behaving like a kittypet, and especially being in a cage for less than a day isnt that much time. do we give loners to squirrelflight and such for leaving the clans for moons when they went on a journey? no, because they knew they were still part of their clans, and qwilloebreeze does too. she hadnt been taken away yet. 08:00, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm she was taken away, by Twolegs and was treated like a kittypet. 22:32, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

Anymore comments? 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

I'm still disagreeing, shes a feral cat stuck in a cage. :/ 08:04, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the other above comment by skt. If they kept her in a tent thats not really anything worthy of a kittypet rank. I mean if you think about it, tallstar was taken by jakes housefolk because he ate poison and he was treated by a vet and he was /kept there for far longer than one night/ im still disagreeing. 14:13, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with Skt. 01:04, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

Spoiler Tag
I am glad that the spoiler tag has been moved up for Brightheart and Briarlight at least. I'm just noticing that a lot of main quotes, not just the these two cats, give big spoilers. Most of the time, even the name of the character is a very good spoiler. I think the spoiler tag needs to be moved up to above the main quote. 08:12, March 13, 2015 (UTC)

Mmhmm, I say move it. I'm totally up for it and would gladly help with that. Some of these quotes are really iffy and there's no point in changing the quotes tbh- they're main ones for a reason.

Schmeh, radical idea here, not really, but do we still need the spoiler tags? 17:26, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

Definitely! Spoiler tags warn that this will contain spoilers. At least the history points out which spoilers it has. 21:02, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

I'd say go for it, do you want me to start now? 07:38, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Maybe let's wait a bit longer for other people to comment. 23:49, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure anyone else is going to comment, so I would think going ahead and moving things would be a good idea.

Alright let's do it. 06:02, May 5, 2015 (UTC)

(wow, late sorry) This entire wiki is basically spoils. Does it really warn against anything our readers don't already know? 04:59, May 15, 2015 (UTC)

I say so. Like I have a family member reading the series for the first time, and I basically banned them from Warriors wiki, although I am okay with them looking at a few pages... as long as I'm there. I think others can relate, like when a new book comes out, I see a few spoilers around before I actually read the book. I think it's better to keep with the spoiler tags, it's more polite to new people anyway. I think if anyone knows warriors, they can expect to see spoilers in the name of the article, I think we can help make it easier for them. 00:27, May 16, 2015 (UTC)

tbh, Atelda's right. The entire wiki is a spoiler. While it may be polite, having chararts with injuries, descriptions that aren't in the allegiances, and even plot summaries are spoilers in their own right. The only thing that isn't a spoiler is reading the book. Having one spoiler warning on the front page, or even doing what other wikis do and stick the entire article under a "read more spoiler warning" would be good as well. The Dragon Age Wiki, does this, I believe. Or, we could implement what the Mass Effect Wiki does, and have spoilers for individual arcs. Doesn't matter if we even do anything— we'll always be a spoiler-filled website.

I honestly think putting spoiler tags at the tops of articles should be enough. If we took off all the spoiler content we wouldn't have a wiki at all. We've warned the people; if they want to read on anyway it's on them. Besides, as Atelda said, they should know already that there are spoilers 14:20, May 16, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think anyone said anything about removing the content. I said under a read-more spoiler thing- all you'd need to do is click to view it.

I think we both misunderstood each other. That wasn't what I meant; I was just saying that basically the whole wiki is a spoiler. I think I could have been more clear. 20:19, May 16, 2015 (UTC)

I understand the courtesy aspect of the spoiler warning, yet you really can't deny the nature of being a wiki intent on being the best encyclopedia on the Warriors series that we can be. Plus, is simple courtesy a strong reason to keep battling all the difficulty we have had maintaining that naive mindset that people come here not looking or expecting spoilers? Stealthfire, if you have to be there to prevent them from looking at a few pages on the wiki, then it's clear that the spoiler warnings really aren't doing much. 04:11, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

I think more for new people just putting it at the top is better. I'm not sure what the fuss is about. 04:55, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

It's not so much fuss as it is the necessity of it that is being discussed. It seems like the spoiler alert is becoming an antiquated practice that is becoming unnecessary in my opinion. 00:36, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

I actually have an idea, and I don't know if this has been brought up or not. I took a peek at what I believe to be the German Warriors wiki, and they have like drop down menus like most users have in their profiles to reduce the clutter. Maybe we could use those for each of the books they're in, their descriptions, etc.? Storm &#9835;  01:31, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

-nudges conversation- Storm  &#9835;  17:09, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean Storm? This is sounds interesting. 01:41, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

She means exactly what I suggested above. It's a show/hide thing that reduces clutter.

Yeah like how some people have on their profiles 'cats i like' and there's a hide/show thing. Maybe we could edit that and bumble it around a little bit to fit on every page. Like I know how Firestar's page is ridiculously long, and I mean really long. It would help reduce the size of the page if we put those kinds of drop down menus for every book/novella/whatever that they've been in. But in books that they're only in the allegiances and not seen in the book, we can keep those there, but still have them in the show/hide thing. I think we should make the spoiler tag thing more visible as well. Storm &#9835;  02:00, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I use the same thing for my profile, but I find that it takes longer for my computer to load so we want to be careful. 08:43, June 18, 2015 (UTC)

I still don't understand the rational of still having the spoiler tag let alone making it larger. Similarly, drop down boxes should probably only be used on the major characters and they should definitely not be for every single book. The extra coding is also hard to handle on loading and especially mobile. Honestly, I think it's fine as it is. 20:58, June 18, 2015 (UTC)

I think the spoiler tag is big enough, I don't get why we need to make it larger. The dropboxes are great, especially with characters that are the narrators, since that has lots of detail. Who knows? If we use dropboxes, maybe we candetail those sections a bit more too. 22:32, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

We could do like this wiki. When ever u click on a page it pops up with a warning. Emberstar   Floating in the stars of ember 05:54, July 7, 2015 (UTC)

FYI itll take like 10 seconds to load up  Emberstar    Floating in the stars of ember 05:56, July 7, 2015 (UTC)

On those wikis with the spoiler warnings that pop up, it takes forever to load and sometimes don't even fully do. Putting that coding will make it hard for people to view the wiki. It's not like we don't have a spoiler warning at all. If people choose to ignore it, it's their fault. Plus, the very nature of a wiki is that it has spoilers - people should know that when they come here. Sorry, but I do not support implementing that coding but I could see maybe using dropboxes 14:44, July 7, 2015 (UTC)

Agreeing here. It will take a while to load, and I look at a lot of pages sometimes in a day, it will become terribly irritating. 01:00, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Maybe we can just use tabbers for the books the cats appear in? Then instead of 'show' in the corner of it, we can put 'reveal spoiler' or something like that, but maybe for cats like briarlight and brightheart put their charart and description in a tabber as well?? 14:19, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

While I still believe the spoiler tag is a moot point, it should be enough. Like Icebreeze said, we gave them a heads up, they can do what they want with it. 01:04, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

Descriptions alongside toggles
ok this has been bugging me for a while now, but since we use toggles for characters like brackenfur and mapleshade, I don't get why we don't list the secondary description alongside it? it's not that hard to have the second description below the normal one just saying 'brackenfur is also frequently described as a ginger tom'. it saves the confusion of having to bloody look everywhere for the reason for the toggle, too. 15:04, March 24, 2015 (UTC)

It would make loads of sense, especially in Mapleshade's case- she's called ginger-and-white and a tortie multiple times; Mapleshade's Vengeance has her as ginger-and-white. Might prove useful to add the alternate descriptions.

hi can we get some input on this 03:03, March 29, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. It avoids any confusion and such. Just make sure if we do that, have the main charart image switch between the official and alt images. 00:01, March 31, 2015 (UTC)

Is anyone else going to comment on this?

I guess it'd be safe to go ahead and do that 00:47, April 27, 2015 (UTC)

How would we do it is my question. Do we put the secondary description below the official one of something? And what sort of coding are we looking at? If we are anyway. 20:36, May 3, 2015 (UTC)

We could put "Mapleshade is a [insert ginger-and-white description]. She is also very frequently described as a [insert tortiseshell-and-white description here]." What order it goes in doesn't quite matter, I think, since with Mapleshade's description, it's fairly equal for either description. There's no extra coding or anything- the toggle is already built into the charcat template.

Not a bad idea, maybe right under the formal description? 00:27, May 16, 2015 (UTC)

Mmhmm, sounds good to me. It's right there at the top of the page- since the toggle is there, the alt description should be as well.

im fine with characters like mapleshade having frequently described as such as such, while characters like longtail can maybe have something like 'He is alternatively described as a silver tabby tom' or something similar, since his pelt colour is just never really mentioned unlike mapleshade and brackenfur. 09:36, May 16, 2015 (UTC)

I think we are basically just moving it from the trivia to put it more out there. It all sounds good with me, everyone good with this? We just put under their official description "Mapleshade is also frequently described as ginger and white" or something. Maybe even "Blackstar is once described as black" or do we leave the one description ones in the trivia? I really don't mind either way. 06:13, May 22, 2015 (UTC)

I think we leave the one description ones in the trivia. It would get kind of crazy on cats who have many mistakes in description (ex: Brackenfur) but cats who are described almost as much as not with a certain description other than the main one should get it added up above, like on Mapleshade or Longtail. 01:47, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

Just to add to that, maybe Brackenfur should get, like, two of his most common alternative descriptions up above but not all ten of them. 01:50, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

Anymore comments? 23:07, June 15, 2015 (UTC)

I think maybe we could use like a tabber kind of thing, and have ''alt. description'' or something like that. Storm &#9835;  19:54, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

As a coding? Maybe, I thought just listing it under is good. I also feel like we have to list somewhere why we are using that as the official description, like the author confirmed it or something. 21:51, June 22, 2015 (UTC)

Anymore comments? 22:32, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

Are we doing a tabber or something, or listing under. I feel as if listing it under is better, and maybe listing why we use that description in the trivia if necessary. 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Descriptions / Synonyms
I've been going through the descriptions as of late, and I've noticed that there are a lot of double words in them. I know we're supposed to make sure the descriptions are in-depth and all, but would it be too much to ask that users go through and make sure what's in there should even be in there to begin with? I recently did this with Sharpclaw's page, just because it was the first page that came up on the activity feed. The word brilliant also means sharp and clear, so we wouldn't need one word when the other is already mentioned. idk, it's a huge pet peeve of mine to see so many synonyms in one description.

The word sleek is also the same way- it means smooth and glossy, therefore we wouldn't need all three in the description. I'm not saying to not add anything like that, but perhaps we could start to really use a dictionary, and crawl through the descriptions to weed out the extra wording? Not everything belongs in a description. Say if Hawkfrost is called sleek, but then glossy a couple pages later. We wouldn't add glossy, since sleek already covers it.

tldr; please please please start to use a dictionary when adding things to character pages. I cannot stress this enough- while it's important, what's even more important is making sure our descriptions make sense. Not just to us (it'll make sense to us because we wrote it), but to the average, every day, wiki-browsing user who just wants to know what eye color Firestar has or something like that.

Honestly, I think intense could be kept. Intense (color) = Deep in color. Otherwise, I agree with you. 11:56, May 16, 2015 (UTC)

I agree as well. We don't need a bunch of the same things. I always wondered why they listed "sleek" and "glossy" and stuff like that next to each other. It just makes descriptions really unnecessarily long. I'm all for you removing that stuff 14:26, May 16, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe we can make a reference page. Like "Sleek also means glossy" and etc. I know it seems a little bit cliche but it is a bit difficult for people who's native language isn't UK english and that. And I'm not perfect with word definitions either. It would stop it also happening in the future too. 01:24, May 17, 2015 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea! Thank you for bringing it to attention, Skye. I do believe there should be a reference page on what are synonyms, though! 11:14, May 17, 2015 (UTC)

If you question a synonym, you should ask. A reference page for synonyms would become obsolete real quick. Using google or an online thesaurus/dictionary is quicker than trying to track down a "personalized" thesaurus on the wiki. If you want help compiling a personal list real quick, I can always help, but the reasons aren't very convincing to me to make it wiki-wide in my opinion. There are plenty of quick resources you can use to confirm a word's meaning and the majority of our userbase speaks English. 04:19, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

What's becoming a more prominent issue as we reorganize descriptions is what should be included in the description. A general rule is: if they're named for it, add it. However, many of the components to descriptions are pretty useless, like we're basically describing that they're cats (e.g. "clear eyes", "delicate noses", "furry tails", etc.). Yet, many other components are rather questionable as to whether they should be included such as the shape of the head (as Jayie points out). What do you think? 03:12, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

I'm all for in-depth and clarity in descriptions, but adding "furry tails", "round eyes" (unless their eyes are specifically mentioned that way; ie: Rose and Lily), and other things like "sharp claws" seems so pointless. We know they're cats, the readers know they're cats, and mentioning half of it seems so pointless. I have the same issue with the broad shoulder thing, especially in the cases of Tigerstar and Bramblestar- it's mentioned so many times, and it's so redundant, that calling them "big" or "massive" or even broad in general would be a bit more fitting. You can only have "broad shoulders" or "broad [insert body part]" in there so many times before it becomes unreadable.

Also, the white teeth thing. While it's uncommon for feral cats, let's all be reminded that these are cats who live in groups, practice medicine, and have their own religion. Having white teeth seems totally legit compared to that.

I think it's okay for the sharp claws part, like that means they take care of their claws and are healthy. The clear eyes also represents how healthy they are too. The well-shaped means they have a good shaped body. I think we need to interpret the descriptions a bit more and what they represent, like broad shoulders means they are naturally a strong cat. 03:38, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

People, can we please finish discussing this before making changes? I'm seeing people going around and taking away 'sharp claws' and 'brilliant eyes' can we please stop until we've sorted this out? 22:14, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

I already started doing that before it got brought to PC- some of it doesn't make sense and really isn't needed. We don't need PC's permission to remove some of the stuff.

Alright, almost two years ago, when I joined, I was the citation machine, as some people lovingly called it. I, personally, think that the further details of characters are needed. When I was little, and wanted to draw the cats, I used WWiki's descriptions of the cats (i.e. 'brilliant eyes' and 'fluffy tail'). I personally think that by removing the further details (synonyms are completely irrelevant- remove those if they're redundant -shrug-), we are chopping off our own feet. Because while it may not seem useful for us, it surely is helpful for the users who like to draw and want to be as detailed as possible. That's just me. -- Nachtide  The  Wikian   Squad 04:13, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

That's a good point. I used to do the same. I think especially when no one has thought much about the synonyms, has this only been brought up now? Cause I know Warriors wiki have been around for a few years and there didn't seem to be any problems until now. I still think we should discuss this more, because some great and reasonable descriptions are being deleted, so we need to sort out if we are doing this, then if we are, what are we removing. So can we please halt it for now? 04:50, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

But brilliant eyes and fluffy tails doesn't make that much sense. Who cares if their eyes are brilliant and piercing? Half of the cites for "round" or "wide" eyes aren't even legitimate cites- no one bothers to check the context. We only just started adding some of this, because when I joined, the descriptions were much simpler. We are here to compile a database, not to describe Cinderheart's delicate nose or something like that. =\

i agree the eyes are usually out of context but fluffy tails do make sense, because obviously not every cat is the fluffiest thing you've ever met, they might only be of around medium fur length rather than long, but still quite fluffy. while some descriptions need some pruning, not everything needs to be removed, especially since it helps people imagine a cat more easily. so im with synonyms being removed but other things (like white teeth honestly) staying. 06:01, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

Also, kind of off-topic, but I agree that this topic should be concluded prior to making changes. People aren't paying attention, and I feel like there might be edit wars if we allow this to go on. -- Nachtide  The  Wikian   Squad 08:21, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

If I may add? Words like clear, bold, etc for eyes really don't describe the physical appearance, other than clear meaning they're basically cats. All cats have clear eyes unless they're sickly, old, or blind, thus why some of them have 'milky' as added in their eye descriptions. I think unless the character is specifically stated as such, these words should be removed. Also, I've seen on many kit's descriptions that they have 'short tails' or 'thorn-sharp claws' or that they're tiny. /ALL/ kits have short tails and thorn-sharp claws, and /ALL/ kits are tiny, so I think those should be edited out. Of course, when the kittens get older, if they're still mentioned as tiny, such as like Tinycloud or Barkface with the short tail, then those would be added back. Or if the kit actually has the defect of the short tail, like Barkface or Cedarpelt.

I agree with Snowy about the 'delicate nose' on Cinderheart. I mean, come /on/. Honestly that was just there to make the description longer. How in the world would artists /draw/ a delicate nose anyway? But also the word 'brilliant' actually describes a shade of color. It means bright, so if it was like 'brilliant green eyes', then it would be 'bright green eyes' basically, and I don't think that should be edited off. Also make a note that on one of the pages (don't remember which), I saw the description had 'sharp front claws'. .-. Unless specifically stated as an older cat, they /really/ shouldn't have those included in the descriptions, because younger cats /will/ /still/ /have/ sharp claws, just as all kits having thorn-sharp claws. Storm &#9835;  19:51, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

Just gonna pop in and say that I'm like 1000% sure that when it comes to things all kits have, like the short, stubby legs, short tails, small, (unless they are still kits, then that's another story- we wouldn't add 'small' for Bluestar if she's called that as Bluekit) ect, we decided not to add those (and not tweak their chararts), because as they grew older, those things would develop and grow. We'd only add them again if they were mentioned as that later.

I think I agree with Snowed about the kit thing, although I think there is plenty that described Patchkit in Mapleshade's Vengeance, like stubby tail and that. Should we add those to his description? I think clear eyes and sharp claws just remind the readers how healthy and strong the cat is, it doesn't necessarily relate to age that much. 23:35, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

Patchkit was a kit when he died, so yes, those would get added. But since he's a kit, we wouldn't tweak the charart or anything. The sharp claws and clear eyes is another way of saying "I am a healthy and sharp cat (smart, skilled, whatever)" and honestly shouldn't be added (imho) unless it's like Bramblestar or Tigerstar.

Alright, gonna go in-depth a bit, so bear with me here. o3o "If I may add? Words like clear, bold, etc for eyes really don't describe the physical appearance, other than clear meaning they're basically cats. All cats have clear eyes unless they're sickly, old, or blind, thus why some of them have 'milky' as added in their eye descriptions. I think unless the character is specifically stated as such, these words should be removed. Also, I've seen on many kit's descriptions that they have 'short tails' or 'thorn-sharp claws' or that they're tiny. /ALL/ kits have short tails and thorn-sharp claws, and /ALL/ kits are tiny, so I think those should be edited out. Of course, when the kittens get older, if they're still mentioned as tiny, such as like Tinycloud or Barkface with the short tail, then those would be added back. Or if the kit actually has the defect of the short tail, like Barkface or Cedarpelt."

In my opinion, we're making assumptions, here. We're assuming that all cats have that kind of description. It doesn't matter if they all look the same- we're still uncertain. What if some cats have, oh, I dunno, dull eyes? We're making assumptions, and that basically goes against the editing standards of this Wiki because we compile information we do have. As for the kits thing, we're making an assumption there too. Why should we have to wait for a citation for every single kit to be mentioned with the such in order to define their tail? It's an assumption that all kits have short tails. Maybe something happened to it, that wasn't mentioned in the story. We don't know.

"I agree with Snowy about the 'delicate nose' on Cinderheart. I mean, come /on/. Honestly that was just there to make the description longer. How in the world would artists /draw/ a delicate nose anyway?"

Delicate can refer to texture, mind you. Some of the realistic artists could potentially use the adjective to draw fine textures on the nose. As for the rest of Storm's post, I won't reiterate for the sake of saving room. -- Nachtide  The  Wikian   Squad 22:53, May 22, 2015 (UTC)

Starry, you're basically saying that we're "assuming" the cats grow. We're not assuming, because it's a fact of life that cats grow, get bigger (to a point), and their legs become more than just stubs, as do their tails. Adding "short tail"s and "stubby legs" to a fully grown cat's description when they're called short, small, ect, as a kit is completely pointless. They. Are. Kits. It's counterproductive and, imho, kinda silly, to add those to their descriptions. Look at these pictures of baby cats (aww cute, I know), and then these older cats. Do you notice something that very many of the pictures of the baby cats have in common? They're small and have short legs. I'm not assuming anything by saying that all kits have short legs and are small, because they are. The day a cat gives birth to another full-grown cat will be the day I eat my laptop.

Don't say we're assuming, when we're using common sense, logical reasoning, and evidence. Cats will change in size quite drastically as they grow. There is no legitimate reason that you have provided that makes me believe that it's even remotely acceptable to add these things to grown cats' descriptions. Hell, in Bluestar's Prophecy, it's even said Bluestar's legs are small because she is a kit. She gets upset about it, and one of the older cats (I think it's Sunfall or Moonflower), said that she'll grow.

I think leave the delicate nose, because it may not seem important to us but it's great for artists. I think just remove synonyms is best, but make sure to remove the word that says the least, like maybe sharp eyes instead of bright or something. 04:55, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

I think we need to make that reference page. I'm getting quite confused as to what supposed to be edited and what's not. 21:51, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Well, a Google search would weed out some of the stuff as to whether or not it's non-physical or important. We don't need to ask to remove those- a consensus isn't required to remove something that shouldn't be added anyways. Just because it's used does not mean we need to add it. Go ahead and make the reference page, but since there are various meanings to words, we'd need to list all of them.

Done. I tried to keep to words that are often used by the Erin's. I know some are pretty obvious, but I feel better in general to try to list as many as the Erin's use as we can. 06:22, June 9, 2015 (UTC)

Anymore comments? 21:51, June 22, 2015 (UTC)

Yep - i mean some one made Hollyleaf's description to much like... well... holly.

Hollyleaf is a slender, long-legged, [10]  black she-cat [11]  with soft, [12]  long [13], holly branch-like [14]  fur, [15]  sharp, [16]  holly leaf-like [10]  green eyes, [17]  thorn-sharp claws, [18]  a bushy tail, [19]  and pale, tough paw pads.

The simple fact is it that she was named Holly/paw/kit/Leaf beacuse her FUR IS THE COLOR OF HOLLY BARK  (some holly bark can be black in coloring like this [q=black+holly+tree+bark&FORM=AWIR#view=detail&id=5724379BB22EB01452FF6046E896B3597B845600&selectedIndex=5 pic or this] this or even this one so yes people she DOES NOT HAVE HOLLY LIKE FUR!!! and how dl we know that she has "pale tough paw pads?" Emberstar    Floating in the stars of ember 07:46, June 28, 2015 (UTC)

erm...the holly branch-like fur is referring to her fur texture Storm  &#9835;  14:49, June 28, 2015 (UTC)

No offense Storm but who has ever heard of a cat with sharp fur? Emberstar <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 03:54, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

It's not sharp fur, it's called coarse fur, and it's very much so real. Look it up Storm  &#9835;  04:30, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

I think Leafpool's Wish says something about her name? I'll check later and add it to her trivia. 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Yes she is named nothing for her texture. Squirrelflight specifically states her fur is as dark as holly bark. 02:00, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

Then imo that really warrants an alt, as holly bark is nothing close to black 14:15, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

Holly bark is dark, and Squirrelflight says she isas dark as holly bark, not the shade of Holly bark. 22:02, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

This is the darkest shade of holly bark, I could find. How is that black? It's ashen-gray if that. 22:41, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

Page Numbers Idea-ish
Because of the difficulty of the translation with the page numbers between the ebooks and the prints, I was wondering if anyone thinks it would be a good effort to find the rate of change between the ebooks and the prints. It would be, for the most part, simple enough to find the equation, but I would need a lot of volunteers and it would take a bit of time, especially with the books that I don't have. It would be yield extremely accurate results (although trials would have to ensure that) and might be a good tool for everyone to use across all the projects with the potential exception of PCA. It's just a whim that I thought of and thought it might be useful, so what do you guys think? 02:11, May 27, 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree. I have been thinking about how ebooks are getting more and more popular, and the three novellas hardcopies are clashing with the ebooks. I think something does need to change, like a double cite: "Revealed on page 12 of Dovewing's Silence/page 127 of Tales from the Clans". I sometimes wonder if it also needs to display the chapter in the same way, because I don't think many ebooks display the page number. 04:24, May 27, 2015 (UTC)

Yah... ebooks dont have page numbers... Emberstar <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 05:20, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

Or you could count the page numbers, or even just tweak the ref template so it says something like [Tales from the Clans, page number, Dovewing's Silence] or something like that.

Something like that, my ebook shows page numbers. Do we need to go three way??? Dovewing's Silence page ?, Dovewing's Silence Chapter ?, Tales From the Clans Page ?. I think there needs to be a better system for this. 09:05, June 18, 2015 (UTC)

Comments? 22:32, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

How would we do this? I does seem like complicated coding a little. 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

I think we somewhat strayed from the original idea behind this, but it's actually much simpler than if/ifeq tags and template coding. 01:07, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

Toggle to Tabbers
The coding for the toggle template right now is extremely temperamental and can sometimes doesn't work. Thus, I'm proposing we just switch it to the tabber tag which would look something like this. Comments? 23:04, May 31, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, please. The toggle code makes me cry, so I'm all for changing things. I'd also like to propose a revamp of the character template, (to make it visually better and easier to use) but I'm not quite done with that and there are still some kinks to work out.

Hmm, if the coding will make everything easier than sure. 21:51, June 22, 2015 (UTC)

Any other comments? 01:00, July 7, 2015 (UTC)

Ivypool ~ mentor
I think that Hawkfrost should be listed under Ivypool's mentor. He trains her in the Dark Forest and is called her mentor more then once. Emberstar <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 04:34, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the Dark Forest has a pretty informal organization. Informally and temporarily, perhaps he could be listed as one of her mentors, yet the Dark Forest is also not necessarily it's own Clan or affiliation. 04:49, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

The Dark Forest just copied the Clan traditions, they are not really a Clan. 05:00, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

He (if he is) be put down as an unformal mentor. Emberstar <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 05:12, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. Listing him as an informal mentor is okay with me. 23:07, June 15, 2015 (UTC)

But if we do that, then we need to list Tigerstar and Hawkfrost as Lionblaze's informal mentors, do we not? And I think it's the same for the other Dark Forest trainees.

You got a point. I still agree that they all can have them as unofficial mentors. Maybe we can have a "Dark Forest Mentor/Apprentice" section. 09:05, June 18, 2015 (UTC)

Ivypool is really the only 1 who is shown to have a mentor  Emberstar  <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 04:16, June 30, 2015 (UTC)

Ember, we didn't decide anything, so please don't add it. Ivypool is not the only one shown with a mentor- Lionblaze was trained by both Tigerstar and Hawkfrost, and if we want to get real technical, Bramblestar and Hawkfrost were trained by Tigerstar. Thistleclaw was also trained by Silverhawk, if memory serves me right. There's more than one example and if we're going to do this, we should properly list all of them. Would they also get the mentor category? At the same time, would these also count as being official apprentices- Silverhawk directly calls Thistleclaw an apprentice, actually.

i dont think so, while theyre an organised group, theyre not a true clan, so i dont think it would count. we dont give bloodclan cats warrior ranks for being called warriors in TDH (i think they were anyway). listing cats as dark forest mentors/apprentices in the infobox seems like a good idea though. 19:48, June 30, 2015 (UTC)

I see them as unofficially mentors because their sort of an unofficial Clan. 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Bumblestripe ~ name
I think that Bumblestripe's page should be renamed Bumblestripe (Bumbleflight). He is listed under Bumbleflight in the alligences in one of the books (cant rember which one XD) it would help out vistors to the wiki who only knoq him bu Bumbleflight. Emberstar <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 04:34, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

A misnaming doesn't exactly warrant renaming the page, especially if the incident was one of singularity. There is an extremely small audience that this would be directed to, if there even is an audience for it which is highly improbable. Either way though, there is already a redirect towards the page for the misnomer of the character. 04:52, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

I agree. He is named once Bumbleflight and every single other time Bumblestripe. It makes sense to.

Well it won't happen with Bumblestripe, but what about Darkstar? His been called Duskstar in Cloudstar's Journey, so maybe we can put his page as Darkstar (Duskstar). 21:51, June 22, 2015 (UTC)

The mistake has been noted his his trivia section and I don't think we need to rename the page- having two names like that is bound to throw people off.

The page Duskstar should probably redirect to Darkstar. <span style="">19:50 Thu Jul 9 2015

Yo, speaking of FAs...
So, the featured article hasn't been changed since January, although a planned FA was suppose to go up March-April. It's still the beginning of June, and if not, there's always July. =) Similarly though, Skye or I could write one up. 05:05, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

I think that Daisy, Scourge, and Patchkit (MV) should go in the ready to be featured list. Emberstar <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 05:11, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

Even if we don't get one right away, I'm always willing to write one- It's been a long time since I've done one for PC. I wouldn't mind doing a newer article either, so Patchkit looks nice to me.

I would like to see Patchkit as main cat... i also think that Scourge should be main. I mean its been a while since an un clan born rogue was featured. I want Daisy because well i like Daisy and shes been in the series for a while but has never been featured. Emberstar <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 06:01, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

They should be changed 1 a month. Emberstar <span style="color:rgb(1,58,223);">  Floating in the stars of ember 06:02, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

I'm quite happy with Patchkit. After all, I wrote a lot of it and am very proud of how it turned out. It's amazing what happens when we edit and work together. 06:04, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

Patchkit sounds perfect! His page is very well-written ^^ 22:45, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

It looks like everyone likes Patchkit. Any other comments? 21:51, June 22, 2015 (UTC)

Content Drive
Well, speaking of FA I think the content drive needs a change. It's been up for a while and I've helped fix the pages. I think they are ready. It was suggested a while ago that Princess needs a lot of work. 06:07, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, it's not that it needs a lot of work, persay. Why not take an article that's already fairly large and work on that? While a lot of the silver (and even old gold articles) are good, many of them are extremely lacking in the sections for newer books. Bramblestar's article is a prime example- it's missing so much from Bramblestar's Storm, and many of the sections are quite short, despite him having a PoV and him being a major character. Or perhaps Clear Sky? Many of his sections are lacking or missing as well (which while I was the one who nominated Clear Sky himself, the stuff that happened in DotC just really turned me away from his page. Or even Gray Wing could use a lot of work. Jagged Peak as well, imho. While these are slightly major characters in terms of appearance, after The Sun Trail and Thunder Rising, many of these sections go unfinished.

I see, yeah I think these more major characters need work more immediately. Graywing isn't even silver grade. 09:05, June 18, 2015 (UTC)

Comments? 22:32, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

Alternate Descriptions
Why is the descriptions trivia being deleted? I'm just noticing and I really see no reason why. 21:57, June 4, 2015 (UTC)

Because the stuff from Cats of the Clans and The Ultimate Guide is just an excuse for more art. Littlecloud does not look orange, Sharpclaw doesn't look brown-and-white, and in some cases, we cannot tell which cat is which, especially with Littlecloud. And those who don't have access to the app probably wouldn't know which one Sharpclaw is. I'm deleting it because it can come into major questioning- every other time I've said this, I've gotten told to be quiet as it deletes good images. With those pages, sometimes there is more than one cat shown in the photos, and just like the cover art on the books, if it's not explicitly stated which is which, to add them is an assumption. Heathertail doesn't look ginger, and with Stonefur, there are three cats in the picture, which is him, Mistystar (Mistyfoot at the time), and Graypool.

I agree with you on images with Littlecloud and Runningnose and Stonefur and that, but Heathertail definitely looks orange in my opinion. this is colour-picked off the image. I'm pretty sure it is not light brown. 22:22, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

But do we know what rank she was in that photo? Just because she was mentioned as something in the paragraph doesn't mean that's what the picture represents. Given that the same art was also used in Cats of the Clans... she was called Heatherpaw then, not Heathertail. There are also many different shades of light brown, and honestly, all of that is thrown out the window by not knowing her rank. That shade used on her image looks slightly like what Beebs used for Clovertail's chararts, actually. Colorpicking on those images won't do much justice at all, imho- given that those are painted, with probably watercolors or something along those lines (idk what Wayne used to paint them with, but I love his artwork nevertheless), you're never going to get the exact shades he used because of shadows and highlights and other various things on an image.

Below the picture lists their name. With cats of the Clans, Hethertail is listed as Heatherpaw and Willowshine is listed as Willowpaw. I think that gives a good hint. 09:05, June 18, 2015 (UTC)

While yeah, colors can look different in different lightings, there's no way a brown cat is going to look bright ginger unless everything else in the picture is orange. Which in Heatherpaw's picture, it definitely wasn't. Lighting isn't just a go-to argument whenever you want to argue about art. Also, we had this argument ages ago. We could either make art for every rank with the description or go with the rank that they held in the books at the time the book was published. But either way its an alternate description and should be added. <span style="">15:19 Sun Jun 28 2015

I think we do it by the name that is below the picture, and the time of rank the character was in when the book was released. 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Kinfolk
I was looking for an accurate cite for Morning Whisker, (it's kinda invalid now since the link no longer shows the proper comment) when I came across this lovely gem of information from Kate:
 * As far as I’m concerned, nieces, nephews and cousins aren’t a Warriors concept. Vicky and I have always gone to great pains to make sure that kits refer to their kin by name not familial connection. Occasionally we’ll use the words mother, father, brother or sister for emphasis or because no other word will do, but I have certainly never intentionally used the words niece, nephew or cousin because warriors simply don’t think in those terms. “Kin” is as close as they get to recognising family ties.

So... umm... what exactly do we do with this? Do we revamp the family sections with this information? Given that we are an encyclopedia, we're kinda bound by the information we're given.... I have no idea what we'll do, but it's obvious we'll need to do something.

Hmm, It is good to list all the family members we know, but we can try to change it a little. Maybe, we can just have the immediate family listed, then leave the rest as a tabber listed as 'Rest of Kin', like the see more section on Cloudstar's page. That sorta lists them as kin, but lets us know how they are kin because I think that's important. 00:30, June 14, 2015 (UTC)

I honestly don't think we should remove anything/add any sections. Sure, the cats don't think abut it, but we are a full encyclopedia and a niece/nephew is a proper part of a family. 08:48, June 14, 2015 (UTC)

I like Stealthfire's idea. While we do need to adapt it to match what Kate said, labeling non-immediate family as "kin", I believe we should keep their exact relationship so we can be as accurate as possible, and I think it would be useful to those using the wiki as a reference. It's important information, and there's no need to get rid of it 16:06, June 14, 2015 (UTC)

yeah theres no point just making it more complicated to tell, maybe put a disclaimer or something saying that while we organise them into cousins and whatever, the cats do not go beyond immediate family, basically. 19:39, June 14, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that's a good idea. While the cats don't see each other beyond immediate family, we kind of do, so it's needed to have the relations listed and all. 00:39, June 15, 2015 (UTC)

Along with Stealthfire's suggestion concerning possibly using a tabber or collapsible box, I think we should also rename the section from "Family" to "Kin". 02:06, June 16, 2015 (UTC)

Renaming "Family" to "Kin" seems like a good idea. And I don't think we need to get rid of the nieces and nephews and such as it organizes them for us, but the disclaimer would work. <span style="">20:34 Wed Jun 17 2015

I like that idea, renaming Family to kin. Makes it more warriors like. 21:51, June 22, 2015 (UTC)

Anymore comments? 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Minnow ~ Silver Nomination
havent written a thing in a while, and plus she doesn't do much in the story so... nothing much for her 20:21, June 28, 2015 (UTC)

Can you find some more quotes? I really think there are some good ones somewhere. 10:14, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

There... actually are none. All what she says has to do with 'Who is Gray Wing, I expected his size to be bigger'/Going out hunting/Scenting Thunder. She barely appears at all, at least compared to Reed, so there isn't much to work with. 15:04, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

CBV? 00:28, July 4, 2015 (UTC)

Vote's up! 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Reed ~ Silver Nomination
Typed this up yesterday. Comments? 01:26, June 30, 2015 (UTC)

CBV? 01:07, July 4, 2015 (UTC)

Vote's up! 01:22, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Mistlekit (TPB)
Is this really a 100% confirmation on her name and description? I'm starting to not agree with that... I mean, it says:
 * Then let's call her Mistlekit, since she was unnamed, and your description of her sounds perfect. :)

I don't see how that's different from some of the other cites we've had to consider invalid. Given that the description was decided by a fan, and she didn't confirm it as canon- she just said that it sounded perfect. It kinda reminds me of the "I like it- yes" thing that Kate did for Breezepelt and Nightcloud being on the run (which we know did not happen).

Description wise, if we're not going with the fan description, then the in-book description of dark tabby works. Not sure on the name, though. 13:20, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

Maybe we need to ask Kate what she means by 'sounds perfect'. Is that an approval that it is true or in her opinion it's a good description? 01:05, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Good idea, Stealth! Just saying but that means Flamenose's description would also be invalid as well. 02:46, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

Character Trivia
So...while going over my userpages, I found little something I must've come up with a while ago for characters with longer trivia sections must've been during some sort of conversation about the matter, idk. Anyways, I thought perhaps I could bring that back to the surface for everyone to have a look at, just in case we ever wanted a more discreet way of taking care of long trivia sections not necessarily for just character pages, but for any pages with trivia. It obviously needs a lot of tinkering and messing with before it becomes anything official; I just thought I'd share the idea and see what everyone thought of it. hhh i sound so awkward im sorry im really not used to bringing up these sorts of things <span style="">14:50 Sun Jul 12

I think this is a great idea berry! this would make the trivia sections much neater :) 14:58, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a good way to trim pages! There is a way to put cites in these boxes, correct? 16:33, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, cites can be placed in these boxes. haha ignore what i used for the example i used what came to mind first shh <span style="">17:16 Sun Jul 12

Hmm, we have been talking about using tabs for descriptions and history. I support this, but we don't want too many tabs. I think we can keep this non-collapsible and yeah sort it like you have. I've thought of another section to add: Related to other Cats or something along those lines. 21:46, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Oh and I'd also thought about the order of the trivia themselves. I think it's best to put them in order of the timeline. Yeah so called Firepaw when already a warrior first, then The Darkest Hour one. If we cannot go in timeline order (like an author mention) then we put it based on when it was released. I also suggest an author information section too, so information from the author. 22:08, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Book Mentions?
I'm getting really confused here. There are cats such as Brokenstar and Thistleclaw who do not appear, but are mentioned in various books, such as Dovewing's Silence and Tigerclaw's Fury, and yet they are being deleted from the history. Why? Since when do we do that? There are many characters such as One Eye and Sweetbriar who are only mentioned in a book, but those are not deleted. I think we need to discuss this. 02:00, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

They're only being deleted from the deadbooks in the charcat 23:40, July 13, 2015 (UTC)