Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Apprentice Tutorials Makeover
So as most of you should know, since Snowed of Lightning mentioned it above, that I will help out with the apprentice tutorials' update. I want to start ASAP, and I want to know from you guys which ones need updating. We aren't claiming which oines to do yet, but Snowed of Lightning says she wants to redo the black cat tutorial.

Which tutorials do you think need updating? 0:41 Wed May 7

Mottled and flecked. 07:03, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind a tweak to the tortoiseshell and dual-colored ones to make them a little more natural, so to say. (the ones Iceheart and Loonie did) The tortie one only shows pale torties, I think, and the dual colored one should have a bit more variety. I will say this, though. No one needs to touch Bloo's marbled tabby one- it's perfect in every way, shape, and form. 8DD

Yes Snowed of Lightning. That one is fine too. I agree with both of you. 20:17 Wed May 7

The eye and shading charts need updating. And possibly the adding stripes tweak tutorial... Idk. 20:55, 05/7/2014

We should add more diversity in tutorials, like having some be using queen blanks, deputy blanks, leader blanks, kit blanks, etc. Notquiterocketwildbokan (talk) 21:17, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Oooh, yes, that's a fantastic idea. I find it awkward to try and tabby on a blank that isn't shown in a tutorial because that's how I learned the way the tabby stripes should go. I'm sure others feel the same, so the project and all the users would benefit from the use of more than just the warrior blank (which is the most commonly used blank) for the tutorials. 22:50, 05/7/2014

Yes, fabulous. I was thinking that the shading placement image needs updating as well, and the color chart too; it could have a few more colors (if there are any). 2:02 Fri May 9

See, that's the thing with the color chart. I don't think it's a good idea to take that for perfect, since the colors are only a basic example of what you could use. It's the same with the ear pink. It should really only be used as a guide for what color area you should start with if you're new...but as this project has shown, there are a lot of different colors and shades that you could use. I'd be all for updating the shading placement to show different styles too. ^^ If someone has the time I'd say two styles for each blank but that would be madness and I don't expect anyone to sit around and do that. \

I've got time. I might even have time for the frigging eyes DX I already started 3 days ago I'm not even half way done cause I don't have the patience. 23:20 Fri May 9

I think that under each section, say, dual-coloured, we should have multiple tutorials by different users. I don't think that unless they are misleading, tutorials shouldn't be replaced but kept in respect to the artists. I like Icehearts, and I don't want to see them replaced. With different tutorials under each section, then users can select from a variety of diverse styles and choose which one fits them best instead of just looking at one tutorial.

White and black (individual white cats and black cats I mean) is also misleading. They imply that you're not allowed to use pure white or a really really dark gray, when in fact that is quite the opposite. While it's possible (and I've done it for fun), I believe having tutorials that show using pure white and darker gray should be an option- someone once told me that using pure white was forbidden, and that's completely and totally misleading. =P

I agree with you all. So, now, shall we start with the tutorial's make-over? I can start with the 'tabbers' coding on the page. Then, I can place the tutorials according to their level of difficulty (Charart basics, like shading styles, eye placement, etc, then to patterns, like tabby and mottled/flecked, etc, and then tweaking, etc.). Sound like a plan? 16:50 Mon May 19

It's more than okay with me, if you want to start with some of the basics, Hawk. What say you, PCA? Should we get started on this?

Sounds good to me. Might as well get this all done sooner so we can give newer users a more updated look at how us dorks over at PCA art. love you all you awesome nerds  20:33, 05/20/2014

Okay, the tutorials have been put into tabbers. What do y'all think? I guess now we can start updating/making tutorials. So I was thinking to add:
 * Texture Tutorial
 * Smudged Shading Style Tutorial
 * Torbie Tutorial

I know that Snowed of Lightning wants to redo/update the black cat tutorial, and I'd like to make a texture tutorial as well as update the eye placement and shading placement. I can also take care of the smudge-shading tutorial. So pretty much I just want to hog everything for myself mwahahaha No jk jk jk Is everyone okay with this? 21:29 Tue May 20

I defiantly agree with adding texture and torbies; sounds great to me! 13:00, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to see tutorials for how to use Pixlr, Gimp, paint.NET, and everything else that is usually used. I think it'd be helpful. 13:04, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

Oooh, having ones per program, or at least ones teaching the basics, would be something I'd be okay with. Although I can't help, since I use Photoshop, it's still a really good thing to consider. I feel bad when I can't help people who come and ask me, since I'm literally so inexperienced with those, especially Paint.NET and Pixlr.

I totally agree with Snowed of Lightning about that. Now; shall we get started? 11:50 Mon Jun 2

I've got no complaints about getting this rolling. Let's get it started. Is each person gonna take a different one, or are we just letting everyone do their own versions? 'cause each person has different methods and I think just letting everyone share their ideas would be the easiest and fairest way to go about it. I just want to do a bi-colored and the regular black, and maybe something on white if I have the energy, and you guys can do the rest.

I think we should let all warrior and aboves do their own versions. As said, it's fair and everyone has their own methods and it's a good way to share ideas. owo

Good. Okay, let's get started. I would like to claim the torbie and texture tutorials. I'll start right away, the upload it onto the apprentice tutorials. If that's okay, anyways...1:21 Sat Jun 7

I'll do my style of tabbies and smudged shading, if you guys want.Shinxy Blitz  and  Melody  22:34, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Can I do one on tinted shading on white cats? 20:01 Sun Jul 27

Looking over the tutorials, it's very overwhelming. Also, would the finished product on many of the tutorials posted by past users probably be accepted with the recent standards? Probably not, actually. By no means do I imply to delete the older tutorials, but perhaps archive them or organize it better. 16:33, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

Not delete, but simply create more of a variety. Archiving also sounds like a good idea. 18:45 Wed Jul 30

I like the idea or archiving them. 7:02 PM, Wed Jul 30, 2014

If we archive them (I support that idea BTW), can I make updated versions of a few? Off of the top of my head, dual-colored cats and calicoes.Shinxy Blitz  and  Melody  09:57, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what we mean. We create more tutorials from different users to have variety. Not everyone has the same opinion, thus if we archive the old ones, we can show what users now would be interested in doing, like texture. Also, art skills have changed dramatically over the years, and it would be better to create tutorials based on what PCA members today want to see. <span style="">2:03 Wed Aug 6

Can someone make a tutorial of how to put layers under the pixel art in Pixlr? I'd appreciate it, User:Tigerbird Tigerbird-The-Great 18:22, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't really require a tutorial... just google it... <span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:4px ridge; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: #000000;">Shinx Blitz  and  Melody  18:30, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

I can't find it on Google User:Tigerbird Tigerbird-The-Great 18:22, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Could i make a version on how i do tortie's?--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 00:50, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

I believe it was stated somewhere above that anybody can make some, Breeze! ^_^ <span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:4px ridge; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: #000000;">Shinx Blitz  and  Melody  09:19, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

Can there be a torbie and texture tutorial? Tigerbird-The-Great 18:36, August 16, 2014 (UTC)

Tigerbird: Im actually planning on making a tabby and texture tutorial. :) Idk about Torbie's, though.--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 20:13, August 16, 2014 (UTC)

Why are we already claiming and planning tutorials to do before a proper conclusion is even reached and a layout is even created? Let's not jump the gun, and focus on the planning of layout if the idea is to even progress, first. ;}

Stone, there is nothing wrong with planning our own tutorials right now. Other users have already planned, made, and posted it to the Apprentice Tutorial's page. It wont hurt to have the tutorials there for the time being, until a proper layout is made. The point is to have a variety of tutorials, showing different methods that us users use when we do chararts. No one is "claiming" a tutorial, because its already been stated that anyone can make one. (So sorry if this came out as rude, im honestly not intending to be. .A.)--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 20:43, August 16, 2014 (UTC)

For the earpink chart, I think we should do a complete overhaul of that, maybe add a few different shades for ginger, brown, and tawny, and figuring out those ear colors. mainly ginger, the regular ginger looks so unnatural to me, I have a ginger cat and I know ginger cats and all of their noses are either bright pink, orange-pink, or pale pink. <span style="">11:38 PM, Tue Aug 19, 2014

Okay, I think we need to plan on a layout for right now. For starters, PCA expectations are much higher than they used to be. People want to learn texture, which isn't mandatory, they want to get crazy with realism, and Warriors isn't realistic to begin with. I am suggesting the tabbers because I'd like to keep the basics with the basics, and as the users get more familiar with image making, they'll understand how to do it on their own, and they can get further into tweaking and harder patterns and such. Right now, I say we should be focusing on archiving the old tutorials and replacing them with ones that PCA today would be interested in, because most users want their art to be pretty. In another discussion, though I hate to bring it here, says that users complain of not having enough work to do between books. If you're bored, help with the PCA tutorials! =3 <span style="">15:30 Wed Aug 27

Suggestion for a new requirement to become a SW
So I was thinking (I've actually had this idea for quite a while but whatever) and I think a new requirement should be added to become a sw. I think that in order to become a SW you have to nominate at least one article and it must pass in PW, PR, PB, or PC. This way users will have to help the other projects to advance in PCA and SW nominations won't be as much about pretty art. I think it would help, and when ou think about it it isn't hard at all to get a nomination in a project. x3 21:01, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

That's acutally a really good idea. Didn't this project close because of other projects being ignored? If we do this, then that means that the other projects would benifit, too. Notquiterocketwildbokan (talk) 21:03, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it did. ^ I like this idea. Not only would they be participating in other projects, they might actually learn to like working on the mainspace articles and become more active members in other projects. I'm all for this- the main focus is not PCA, but it does have fun parts. Plus, as Duck said, it really isn't very hard to nominate and get them to pass.

I really like this idea. I've gotten a page up to silver and it wasn't hard. Granted it was a very minor character's page, but it wasn't hard at all. Should be an easy task to accomplish for everyone. <span style="">21:07, 05/10/2014

I agree, nominating is a piece of cake. This will probably stop the other projects being ignored (compared to the PCA). 16:37, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

Really though, nothing you do can get people to work in other projects or the mainspace if they really don't interest. I don't exactly support the idea tbh, because that requirement has nothing to do with being a PCA lead. If you want the requirements to get harder, then they should be more relevant to PCA. There were many people who were PCA leads without having anything to do with other projects, because they feel that their skills don't lie with those projects. But you can't deny them a lead position if they really deserve it for that reason. Scarlet, for an example mainly edited PCA, and would you say that she didn't deserve her spot because her skills lay here, or that she didn't contribute. Same with a lot of other people that I could name before. Personally, there are other methods of trying to raise the activity in other projects. Plus, guys, PCA is still contributing.

I have to agree with Stoner. PCA leads are picked because of their performance in PCA not elsewhere on the wiki. <span style="">10:29 Fri May 16 2014

Wasn't the entire reason we closed PCA in the first place to shift the focus to other projects? While the leads are picked because of the performance in PCA, it would still be nice to see them edit elsewhere every once in a while. While we can't deny them a lead spot because they don't edit in other projects, it would still be nice to see them edit elsewhere. But, it's not for everyone, as stated before. Would membership in another project be a better qualification instead of a nomination having successfully passed? You don't have to nominate- I see people who comment on discussions in other projects that are PCA users, but they'd rather not nominate. Paleh was a prime example of that ( I'm not calling you out, Paleh, I swear, you were just the name I could think of off the top of my head and you were a project lead at one point too ). While she didn't nominate, she was still active in other projects and helping them in whatever ways she could.

I think membership is too easy, you can be a member of a project and never contribute I think that it should be a nomination or an active membership, meaning they comment on stuff and stuff like that. 18:25, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

I like this idea, yet at the same time, I agree that leadership performance shouldn't necessarily be based around other projects on the wiki. However, with past trends that have continued through best and worst of this wiki, I think it should be more encouraged about gaining leadership in other parts of this wiki. Generally, leaders not of PCA gain much prominence in ways such as being given a hand in helping run the wiki, being a leader in more than one project, and generally having a higher status (so to speak, there really is no denying the hierarchy). It's not to say that the leaders of other projects are necessarily good at art; however, it does show commitment, dedication, and hard work, etc. enough so to be a good leader as well as show the patience to learn the art skills. Granted, there are exceptions, but look at the key users in other projects and how they interact here. Yet, with the discussion at hand of whether it'll become necessary as a requirement to participate in other projects for leadership here, I honestly don't mind that being an effective requirement but I acknowledge the other side to it. I'd say to start, emphasize the trend of users in other projects and their effects here. Keep that pattern in constant circulation. Users with ambition might try their hand and find that they like it. And it really isn't that hard to gain notice in other projects (PC might be the exception though). 01:46, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

PCA seems to be the starting point, since it's the easiest to contribute to. It doesn't even need to be leadership in other projects. Because, I'm sorry, but telling someone they need to be a lead in another project before becoming a PCA lead isn't right and that's not fair to anyone, since each project has its individual requirements. Just focusing on art probably isn't the best way to go about it. I was PB's deputy when I was still an apprentice in this project (I joined PB first and even had a small thing with PC and PW but ended up forgetting about it since high school) and wanted to help elsewhere too), and I started contributing more in PCA after I started elsewhere since I wasn't all that good with art back then. Perhaps it should be a "requirement", so to say, but only allowing others who are leads in other projects isn't a good idea in the least. Active member, yes. Project lead???? No.


 * You missed my point. Notice the use of the words "trend" and "patterns". And thus understand that it is an observation that I would encourage PCA to emphasize, the idea of trying new activities outside of this project through the preamble of previous success with the other users. 23:06, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

The other projects have nothing to do with PCA. PCA requirements should on revolve around PCA since it's a project itself. Because if other users simply have no interest in joining the other projects, does that mean they /can't/ become a lead? <span style="">18:42 Wed Jul 30

Not at all. Ambitious users often are leads in PCA as well as out of PCA though. At the same time though, nominating users due to their art should not be a major factor, if a factor at all. Right now, PCA just needs active leads. Not a lot of leads, just active ones. Someone could probably be piss poor at art, but if they're commenting and suggesting good ideas quite frequently then they probably deserve a nomination. 19:04, July 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that having decent (not great or anything, just capability of preforming what is required on an image) is an important factor, as PCA leads should serve as teachers to the project itself. To be nominated, members should possess both skills in art (not great, just decent skills), and skill in leading/helping/teaching. To comment on how to improve an image requires skill in creating an image itself, after all. So, I don't think that decent art skill should be an overlooked factor. Of course, good leadership is obviously required so there is good interaction between leads and members. However, I think the most overlooked factor of being a lead is preforming the administrative duties of PCA, such as archiving and such. I don't want to be rude, but I've seen many leads over time which didn't do those duties as much as they were supposed to.


 * I said it a bit more rough than probably necessary, but I think decent art skills is kind of a foundation already. While not explicitly said, the pecking order automatically underlines the fact that you ought to be a warrior when being nominated as a senior warrior. To be a warrior, you have to have 3ish(?) images approved. Yet, I agree that archiving or more mundane work is being looked over. Problem is, that it's pretty hard to gauge whether someone is willing to do it. It's pretty easy to vote, comment, and discuss topics, but the custodial duties are just as important. How that would apply to a different requirement for nominating senior warriors, I don't know, but at least we've narrowed it down to a problem. 01:06, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I find that the issue revolves around lack of activity. We need active leads, as Atelda has said, who monitor and patrol PCA regularly to help keep the pages, such as the approval page, at bay so the image making process is attended to and images are archived as they should be. This should keep the pages maintained so that, once it's done, the leads don't have to worry about it for a while and can get back to things they want to do in their personal lives. Yes, I understand that not all leads have much free time on their hands, but even if they can squeeze in that little bit of activity to properly maintain the pages, it can help keep the pages as they should be because I have been told many times that the image making process is a very long one. In my honest opinion, right now, I don't think we have a sufficient amount of active leads that can help maintain this project as it should be. And the project has grown quite a bit over the past year or so. <span style="">20:25 Sun Aug 24

As Hawk said, while leads have lives just as we do, it's not an excuse to abandon their duties. If you don't have time, why are you a lead? If you don't have the time, be an honest, mature person as a lead should be, and step down to give another person who has a little bit of time a chance. It's not a lot of time needed, either. 5-10 minutes a day, not even every single day either. It irks me greatly that people have the audacity to use the phrase 'we have lives and are busy' as an excuse to just maintain their 'position.' If that comes off rude, well, isn't the truth always a bit unpleasant to ears? Sorry, I just needed to kinda express my thoughts on that.

Tweak Week
Wow, haven't heard that in a while, if at all, have you? Given the activity of the project and the deprivation of comments that all artists need, a focused effort might be change needed, at least temporarily.

Tweak week is a misnomer for the event as it usually lasts a month. In the past, it usually happened one a year, sometimes every six months occurring often between books. During tweak week, all the tweaks and redos nominated would be completed within the time constraint. What is now the approval page, would be frozen, time and everything.

Concerning ranks, kits and apprentices would be considered on equal grounds. They'd be allowed to only do one redo/tweak at a time while warriors and above can do two. Improving rank is up to the project although if a kit completes two tweaks or a redo, I'd say they'd be fine to move up to apprentice. As for apprentices, a redo could easily qualify as one of their three images they need to complete for a higher rank.

Timeline-wise, if we did it every six months, then there would be five months where everyone can nominate images. Reservations for tweaks/redos should probably be limited to four or five for warriors. If allowed, kits/apprentices could reserve one image, but with comments of whether they can improve that image when it is being voted on. Depending on the number of tweaks/redos approved through the votes, a user can work on a tweak or redo for a maximum time of one or two weeks.

Through tweak week, we can shift the focus provoking more activity for one sector of the project temporarily and then always shift back to the other part of the project. 20:23, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

How exactly do you do the image nominations? Is it like it is on the tweak page? Do you just go crazy looking for images that need to be tweaked or redone? In the weeks before the tweak 'week' are the tweaks/redos frozen? <span style="">8:31 PM, Wed Jul 30, 2014


 * The tweak nomination page would be open all the time for people to nominate images, so don't go crazy, heh. And all tweaking/redoing would be frozen until tweak week. 20:34, July 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks! When do you think tweak week will happen? <span style="">8:42 PM, Wed Jul 30, 2014


 * It's only a suggestion for right now. That'll probably be decided if this idea goes through. 20:46, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

Meh, I don't see the need for this. Even if the project doesn't have a lot of people right now, there's really not a need for tweak week. The project is just slower and I could see extending the time limit on tweaks or redoes or something but tweak week seems unnecessary as after this batch of approved images there isn't a whole lot else. We might as well accept that until the wiki gains more users again the project's pace will be lot slower. <span style="">22:44 Wed Jul 30 2014

Maybe we should wait for a little. Alternatively, we could freeze the approval page from new images and get all the ones there approved, and then have the tweak week. 23:12, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Breezey. I see no need for it at all. The project's slower than it used to be, yeah, but we really don't need another "tweak week". The images get done as they get done, simple as that.

Images get done, hm? 24 hours for the tweak page has become three days. Chararts on the approval page go for days without being commented on. Yes, the project is slower, yet that should mean we should eliminate a part of the project in order to focus on the more necessary items. Center the comments and activity on the major part of the project rather than try to divide and conquer because the project does not have the man power for it. 01:23, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, sometimes the images do go more than 24 hours without comments, because the leads are in fact busy. I know I've worked at least 110 hours in the past three weeks alone. That's at least 36 hours a week, and a lot of them were day shift/night shift/day shift again- therefore, when I come home, I am tired. That's why Duck's been commenting on some sections (which I do thank him for giving me that head's up ^^) to say that it's been a few days; to remind us since I've been busy with work, and Beebs was away for a good thirteen days. Sometimes, it happens. And images also go many days without uploads either, so that isn't to blame the leads for. We can't always comment if a user does not reupload their images, or else we're going to end up repeating ourselves. There's only so much we can do if the artists don't say anything either. It's a two-way street, and my images have gone five days without comments as well.

its not like youre the lord of activity atelda e.e anyway the other projects are slower too, i dont see anyone suggesting we axe parts of those? 01:43, July 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that I haven't been active, yet there is no need to discredit me in such an insulting way, Skt. Please be courteous. 03:38, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

I kinda have to agree with Trollsky. Atelda, you honestly shouldn't be the one to talk about being not getting things done beacuse you yourself isn't a graet example. For now, PCA is being slow, but that's a good pace because we get work done efficently and slow means taking time on it, so I don't see why this is even being discussed. 01:45, July 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * I need not explanations or blame and if you want to get personal, this isn't the place for it as I'm not pinpointing people. If I wanted to blame the leads, I would have outright said something. If I wanted to try to fix the lead situation, this discussion would have a different title and subject. However, I do hold the leads responsible as to why they are not trying to compensate and work with the little activity. Easiest way to cope with lack of activity for such a big project like PCA is to pull back a stem if there's a good alternate that'll complete the job. Tweak week has worked many times before (to clarify: many times before the implantation of the tweak page). I'm completely aware of outside situations as I have experienced them. I'm not asking for more activity; I'm asking for an alternative solution to optimize the activity and make it less spread out. 01:53, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Then if you're gonna do that, hold the entire project responsible. Perhaps the tweak week isn't a good alternative though. PCA then, is not PCA now. I've been in PCA since 2010, which is before you even joined, Atelda. The userbase then and the userbase now are two completely different groups, save for a couple members (like Icy and myself). Saying that something will work now because it worked in the past doesn't really make sense to me.


 * The leads are always responsible as they guide the project. The blame for everything is always put on the leads. I know as well as you do. You can't bow out of that or throw the blame onto everyone involved with the project. This project has worked like it did before it closed and it is still working like it did before. Your deputyship has worked in the past, and it works now. Beeb's work as a lead worked before, and it works now. Skt's work as a lead worked before, and it works now. 02:09, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * We may guide the project, but if some users wish not to comment on much, then what are we supposed to do? Technically, they're still active users, as they're editing and uploading. And I wasn't talking about right before the project closed. I was talking in at least 2011- in which during tweak week, I was a brand new warrior. The members then and the members now are totally different, most of the users we have now hadn't even joined. Tweak week then worked because the users made it work- that doesn't mean it'll work now, though, since those users, save for a couple, are no longer around.


 * I don't really get why you guys are arguing about leads and responsibility this has nothing to do with whether or not tweak week is beneficial to the project. If you want to talk about it move it to a separate header or forum and away from this discussion. <span style="">2:23 Thu Jul 31 2014

I don't see why the project needs to be fast. Like I'd even vote for extending the redo and tweak time limits and such. Like as long as it gets done what does it matter? We're not in a big rush or anything. I don't see any deadlines. I say leave both pages open and let things get done at whatever pace we can manage. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the project being slower since stuff is still being worked on, just steadier, and if anything I'd say the change of pace is actually pretty nice and easier to keep up with. I haven't seen any users expressing frustration at the pace. <span style="">2:01 Thu Jul 31 2014


 * I'd be down for longer deadlines. 02:09, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Longer deadlines would be good for the tweak page. I think the month for the approval page is pretty good, though.

Longer deadlines for the tweak page would be good, and I wouldn't be against a tweak week, tbh seriously, there has been images for three days. I don't care what you're going through, three days over is too much, and if you are offline, which of course can be explained, some other senior warriors should be getting more active a couple of which are barely active. I think that we should be open-minded about this and at least give it a try. Possibly hold tweak nominations for two weeks or a month then have a tweak week, it may be a huge success. have an open mind to at least try it, and if we go by the fact that just because it worked in the past doesn't mean it'll work now then we should redo everything on the wiki because we did it all in the past. 03:01, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Then go tell those leads to boost their activity or else they'll lose their ranking, guys. It's pretty easy to leave a talk page message asking where they are and why they're not editing and things of the like matter. I said the working in the past thing because the userbase is totally different than it is now. I have every right to say that and express my distaste in a tweak week- considering I participated in the last one, and I did not like it. People were too concentrated about getting the characters they wanted and they decided to place everything and anything on that tweak list. I don't need to have an open mind about it, since I already know my opinion on it, since I've been through it before. That is my opinion, and I am not changing it.


 * Yes, the userbase is totally different as you say and so the problem of people being too concentrated about getting their desired character is pretty nonexistent with this different userbase, especially considering we have an established system. Streamlining for tweak week I think would be interesting and it might yield different results than the past. After all, PCA then, is not PCA now. 03:38, July 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * Again, why do we need to "streamline" the project? The tweak nomination page works fine and there's nothing wrong with it being slow. Most other projects still move slower than PCA even now. Tweak week just sounds like an unnecessary hassle and I know I personally would rather have the project run at a steady pace no matter how slow instead of stalling and then a mad rush to do images that we could have been working on over time. <span style="">3:46 Thu Jul 31 2014

Be that as it may, I'm still against it, and I think the slower pace we have now is fine. It gives the users a chance to think, and really focus on things other than making art that gets approved every other day. Yeah, sometimes things go a couple days, but that's where you tell the leads to kick it into gear, or you can do to them what was done to Iceheart, Frostheart, Eu, or any other inactive staff member/project leader/ect. And I don't think it's non-existent just by what I've seen on the tweak nominations page.

I have faith in the voting process for the tweak nominations. Also, filing a vote of no confidence is hefty business and not to be taken lightly, even if it's for a project lead, not to mention the leads themselves should take responsibility of their activity and even their compatriot's activity. But to get back on topic, I don't mind the slow pace, nor do I think or intend for anything to speed up if we get rid of the tweaks/redos temporarily. Bringing back tweak week can bring more attention to the project, amp up excitement, and be an enjoyable event. 03:54, July 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with 'teldy here, this would amp up the excitement and fun in the project. Even if we just have one, I think users, especially kits and apprentices who don't normally get to tweak or redo images, would have simply loads of fun doing this and some of the older users would have a good time, too, I know I would. 04:02, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Again, ''keep your shitty arguments about how incompetent and irresponsible you think others are out of this debate over tweak week and onto another topic. Thanks.''

I believe I've said multiple times before that kits and apprentices should be able to tweak chararts. It may amp up the excitement for some, but so does making chararts when a new book comes out, and we all know what that does. People scramble over each other and argue and its just a general mess (that we can't avoid). I think we're best off leaving the tweak page as is and letting kits and apprentices tweak images. (Which I really don't understand why. Its 2014 and we're still only letting warriors and above tweak). Also its generally more "fun" to just be able to tweak an image all the time and let there be constantly stuff to work on. <span style="">4:11 Thu Jul 31 2014

I'm against letting kits tweak (especially if they have no experience), but I wouldn't object to at least letting the apprentices take a whack at it. But what could be said for voting? Do we also let the kits and apprentices vote????

While we can't avoid it, we can learn to try to manage it. People get excited when a new book comes out in order to make chararts because it's not right in their hands. They have to wait for it. Plus, there will always be stuff to work on, just when someone can work on it is something that can be changed. 04:25, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

There's really not though? There are always images needing tweaked or redone but oftentimes there's no new images to make. There's plenty now because of what has built up over the past few months while the project was inactive but other than that its usually dry and tweaks/redos are all we have to work on. We would easily run out of things to do in PCA inbetween. <span style="">4:30 Thu Jul 31 2014

I don't know, people are quite good at finding alts or something to do in PCA, especially when there's a shortage. Plus, we can always cross that bridge if we come to it. 04:35, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Well, perhaps we could utilize the mentor program if there's a lack of images? Kinda like how colleges and high schools allow summer classes, we could perhaps do some kind of "if you can do [insert description] by [insert time period]", then you can be promoted to apprentice, and then do the same thing for any apprentice who wishes to become a warrior, but due to lack of art, they cannot get ahold of any? Therefore, we'd still be seeing their skill, just in a different form.

And we find an alt, what, once every month? Nah that's not nearly enough to keep the project running constantly. <span style="">4:39 Thu Jul 31 2014

The amount of images that have to be done that are on the list has indeed waned quite a bit. But note that Bramblestar's Storm will be coming out quite soon, in about 3 weeks? The question really is whether or not they can be patient until then. From experience, I know that I was quite impatient between books. What Snowed-senpai is suggesting is that it is something to keep them busy between books??? <span style="">23:55 Sun Aug 3

That's exactly what I'm suggesting, dear. We could also allow them to ask questions, and things like that too. We wouldn't be uploading non-stop, though, and only allow it for that (I'd say) during certain hours, just like a class would do. Like, we could really use this mentor program. Since some mentors are busy (like, I know Duck's kinda afk right now for something, I think), this could provide another alternative.

Honestly people should kinda stop complaining about not enough work to do between books in PCA, when there's many other alternatives such as other projects (which are, in general, all lacking in terms of activity), or even some overlooked things in PCA, such as the mentor program, which Skye mentioned. If the project doesn't have much new images to make, tweak, or is slow, that isn't exactly a bad thing? Maybe for somebody who's bored (who could be turning their gaze towards another project), but for the project, it means that PCA is up-to-date and not running behind in getting stuff done, compared to other projects who are running slow yet they have lots of work needed to get done. Plus, books don't come out that slowly either. In general, there's usually 2-3 books per year, including a regular book, super edition, and novella. That's actually pretty frequent, in my eyes.

I have to agree with Stoney. There are indeed other alternatives rather than PCA, such as other projects and/or users can go do something in the real world, like shopping, family time, etc. Or, the can just create practice images in the meantime and save them to their computer's hard drive. That's pretty entertaining to me, anyways. <span style="">22:09 Sat Sep 6

I thought the entire point of opening PCA back up was that its closing killed the wiki. New images are done super quickly after a book comes out and the tweaking all the time keeps the project going inbetween, which keeps users on the wiki and therefore editing. Like did we not learn anything from the past few months? <span style="">17:02 Sun Sep 7 2014

Message to Leads (present and future)
Hey guys, this is just a reminder, but when doing anything on the tweak nominations page, please put the tweak and redo lists in alphabetical order. I don't know if any of you have seen the edit summaries, but I've asked a couple times for people to organize the list that way, and I don't think anyone saw it.. On this note, when you're approving images, please place the appropriate categories on images. Look on already approved images to see exactly what I mean; for example, if you made a queen image for Brokenstar (lmao), the approved version would get the categories Queen Character Images and Approved Character Images. An alternate, no matter the rank, always gets the Alternate Character Images category as well, alongside their usual categories. It's a way we keep track of what images we have, and if they're not in there, then it's harder to find them. Also, please only add the categories after they are approved. From, your friendly neighborhood snowman.

Pause Button
Hi there. Hawky has an idea which she'll most likely get shot for.

One thing us PCA members have to face when images come out with a new book is spoilers. And I know that some people really hate spoilers.

So I want to suggest that there be a 1 day pause on the day the book comes out. On this day, no images can be reserved/made, and what this pause does is it gives users a chance to go purchase the book and get some reading done so that there aren't as many spoilers, such as a character dying. Not only does this make the book more interesting, it gives other users a certain amount of time to work on the other projects, such as PB, when the book comes out, without having to worry about images and such. When the day is over, PCA can start reserving images and creating them.

I know, everyone reads at their own pace and not all people purchase the book on the day it comes out. I also know some members of PCA can get very impatient. But the fact is is that it is only 24 hours, and I'm sure people can wait the whole length of that time. Since time zones are butts, this will only follow wikia time. So as soon as it says the day after the pause day, load on reservations and start creating images.

I believe that's about covered. Have a pleasant day~ <span style="">18:26 Wed Aug 6

As much as I like this idea, we need to keep in mind that not everyone who is still active here reads the current books. I don't think we should be pausing anything again for the sake of other projects, and we saw what happened last time we did that. People are still gonna do what they want and taking a day for the release wouldn't make much of a difference- the people who edit articles (like myself, Duck, and Beebs) when the books come out are still gonna do that and make art, and the people who are here just for the art will do just that. Spoilers are already all over the place with the names and blog posts, and if you go to google, tumblr, ect, they're all over the place there too. I like the rush when there's a brand new book and everyone rushing around to get whatever image they want is kinda funny and cute since in the end, usually everyone gets what they want...so it kinda works out in the end.

I agree with Snow; I myself don't usually buy the book straight away, I leave it for a few days, if not a few weeks. I only recently bought Leafpool's Wish, I forgot that it was released! I also like the rush too, it's fun :p 13:39, August 16, 2014 (UTC)

Tribe of Endless Hunting Blank?
(Im sorry if this has been said/discussed already, but i was thinking about this)

Well, since StarClan has its own blank, i think the Tribe of Endless Hunting should get their own aswell. Because they are the tribes ancestors, and we know of cats who reside there. (Like the ancients). Honestly, i think this would be a good way for users who don't post here to know the difference if a cat is deceased and resides in the Tribe of endless hunting.

Just an idea. ^^'~Breezeheart~ (talk) 20:15, August 14, 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking about the Tribe earlier on myself. Although, the Tribe of Endless Hunting doesn't have many members, it doesn't really need it's own blank... why not just use the StarClan blank? I mean, they're both dead cats... <span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:4px ridge; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: #000000;">Shinx Blitz  and  Melody  22:38, August 14, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we know enough about them to give them a proper representation. Do we know that they don't have ranks, like StarClan? We gave StarClan their own rank because it's been established and stated multiple times there are no ranks within StarClan, but has the same ever been said for the Tribe of Endless Hunting? I'm not even sure about that, and there would only be a handful of cats we'd use it for.

The same could be said for the softpaws, however. There are only a handful of them yet we still made a blank for them. <span style="">18:01 Sat Aug 16

Because that's a rank within the Tribe. Afterlife isn't a rank, it's a place. StarClan was given a blank since those cats are no longer the ranks they were when they were alive.

I disagree. Even if there are StarClan ranks (which I don't think I supported either), as Cloudy stated, there is evidence that they aren't considered the ranks they were when they were alive. Plus, it would be a waste to make a Tribe of Endless Hunting rank as there aren't enough characters for that. Just like we shouldn't make a big cat blank for TigerClan, ect. :P

Signatures
Hi, PCA! Because most users generally get their signatures on one of your pages somehow, I would like to remind everyone about the Signature policy whether it's enforcing it or following it. Make sure your coding for your signature is on a subpage. Help your friends out too by keeping them from getting a warning. I really hate giving out warnings for such a small issue, but I will. Okay? Okay. 03:49, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hey, uh, IDK if this is the place to be saying this (Probably not, but IDK where else to say this, my apologies), but whenever I type "Nosubst|User:Pikachushinx/sig", it always changes it to "SUBST:Nosubst|User:Pikachushinx/sig". Is that a bad thing? 14:20, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is... mine does that and I have no issues. I believe that's just a default. <span style="">2:50 PM, Fri Aug 22, 2014

Queens
Pls don't shoot me this needed to be asked. Okay, so what are we going to do about the non-pregnant/perma-queen cats, like Daisy and Squirrelflight? Would it just be easier to use the old queen blanks for that, instead of making new line art? <span style="">12:48 AM, Sun Aug 24, 2014

It won't be an entire new blank or the old blank; the current blank's bellies would just need to be edited to be non-pregnant. 00:52, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

We should really get on that, too. It'll thin out our "to-do" list. <span style="">15:22 Wed Aug 27

So, what's happening with this? 11:58, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

How about we take care of those after the Ancient tribe blanks are completed? I don't know if we should have two different blanks on the approval page at the same time. With PCA's activity levels, I think having two might cause confusion. So, after these Ancient blanks are done, then we can take care of the perma-queens. Unless you guys want two blanks on the page at a time, then that's alright with me. ^^

One blank at a time would be best, I think. Like you said, it might cause confusion. Not to mention we're barely getting anywhere with the Ancient Tribe blanks (we've only got three entries... Not as many as many as there should be tbh) <span style="">16:50, 09/7/2014

Charart for Profile?
I was wondering if anyone would be willing to make me a charart for my wiki profile. As soon as I get a reply (If I do) I will tell you how I want her to look. WarriorCat31703 (talk) 02:25, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Leave a request one someone's page- there are a lot of people who take requests. I can do one, if you message me on my talk page. Requests don't belong on PCA's page. <font color="#1B6D96">~ <span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:4px ridge; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: #000000;">Shinx Blitz  and  Melody  11:58, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Like what Shinx said above. I could make you one, if you'd like. Just message a member of the PCA for a request. This page is for discussions with the project, not requests.<span style="color: blue;font-family: Monotype Corsiva; background: black; border:1px solid; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: Blue;"> ~ Breezey ~  Gaara Forever ♥☻  12:17, August 28, 2014 (UTC)O\

Okay, thank you, and sorry. WarriorCat31703 (talk) 12:53, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Briarlight's eye color needs to be changed to sky-blue. WarriorCat31703 (talk) 12:54, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

You didn't really need to point that out, but thanks. I'll go fix that, then? <font color="#1B6D96">~ <span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:4px ridge; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: #000000;">Shinx Blitz  and  Melody  13:40, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Archives section limits
Hey nerds. When you're archive images, would anyone mind if I suggested creating a new archive at, say every fifteen images or something like that? Both for tweaked and approved files. Anything more than that crashes my browser due to the amount of text and images. And the same goes for the tweak nominations archives. Can we cut that down to, perhaps fifty or so? Most of the reason I don't archive the stuff for tweak nominations anymore is because I can't load the page due to the really massive amount of links, text, ect, on each archive page.

Sounds good to me. It takes me ages to load the archives sometimes when I'm trolling... so that seems like a good idea. <span style="">7:50 PM, Fri Aug 29, 2014

I have high speed internet so I don't have the same problem as most, but sounds good. <span style="">14:55 Sat Aug 30

I have a high-speed internet, it's just my laptop, which is a piece of foxdung. Plus, it'll make it load quicker for everyone, regardless of internet speed. Sometimes, the computers just don't want to work, and I think some people are having issues with a recent Firefox update too, which causes it to freeze all the time...so it'll just be easier for everyone, imho.

Sounds good to me, especially seeing as I like stalking old archives (and it crashes for me a lot [sobs]) <span style="">02:36, 09/4/2014

Can I join the project?
I'm not sure if this is the right place or not, but can I join?EosOfTheDawn (talk) 10:08, August 30, 2014 (UTC)EosOfTheDawn

I don't have the ability to accept you, so wait for a SW, but yes, this is the right place. <font color="#1B6D96">~ <span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:4px ridge; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: #000000;">Shinx Blitz  and  Melody  11:20, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

I do have the ability, however, and I'll add you in as a kit. Be sure to read the guidelines, which are on the front page as a link c: 19:14, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks :) BTW I started a charart of Snowpaw but I'm not quite sure how to submit it. Can someone help? EosOfTheDawn (talk) 18:52, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

It's quite simple - add your name into the reservation table, and then put 'Snowpaw (A)' under 'For Approval'. Then you add the date of your reservation under 'Date', and your reservation is valid for a week without posting. 20:09, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! You guys are so helpful! EosOfTheDawn (talk) 09:57, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Rejoin
I would like to re-join the project, if possible :3

-Feather 19:12, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Sure! I'll add ya' in as a warrior. Be sure to review the guidelines c: 19:14, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Voting on the no-rank blanks?
Hey so quick question: No rank blank, what are we supposed to be doing? I believe voting was supposed to start on the 2nd... <span style="">9:37 PM, Sat Sep 6, 2014

I had extended it and thought I published the edit due to the small number of entries...oops, I should have double-checked that the other day. Anyways, let it run until midnight on the wiki clock tomorrow, just in case there are last minute entries. ....I thought something was off earlier this week....

Okay thanks for clearing that up. <span style="">9:42 PM, Sat Sep 6, 2014

I was wondering that too, thanks. I already know who I'm voting for. I'm not gonna win  10:31, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Voting is up for anyone that wishes to vote. I didn't give requirements, since I want this to be as fair as possible- and to let everyone vote, regardless of their place on the wiki.

Pixlr or Sumo Paint Tweaking
Hi, I have a quick question. I'm an apprentice and I want to know how to tweak on Pixlr or Sumo Paint. Can anybody make  a lesson on it please? Thank you. Tigerbird-The-Great 00:03, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

Theres really no reason to make a full tutorial on this.. you can just simply look it up on google. A majority of us use Photoshop and Gimp, or else i would gladly help you, but i've never used either of those before. 00:51, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

"Artist's choice"/"It's fine"/"If someone else agrees"
Three of the most common things in PCA, and three of the things that annoy me the most. What started as a way to express your distaste in a minor critique has now become so commonplace, that it's used on literally every image. Seriously, it's become on par with laziness and stubbornness and the fact that everyone thinks their images are perfect and require no changing. If you're not going to do the critiques asked if you, then why bother posting your image on the approval page? These are excuses for not wanting to take a valid comment into consideration when you're making an image, and it needs to stop.

I am tired of seeing "Artist's choice"/"It's fine"/"If someone else agrees" on every damn image on the Approval Page (my own included and I only do the it's fine if it has to do with like ear pink or if someone tells me to blur shading when I've smudged/vise-versa). Knock it off, seriously. It's becoming too commonplace and there is absolutely no reason for it to be seen on literally almost every damn image. If someone tells you to do something (that isn't totally major, like changing your tabby stripes, fur length without a cite, using another ear pink style, eyes, ect), then just do it. This nonsense where everyone thinks their images are perfect needs to stop, and stop now. No one's images are perfect upon first posting them on the approval page, because that's why we post them there.

PCA has forgotten the meaning of the approval page, and this really needs to be eliminated. The simplest of comments are being ignored, rejected, ect. It shouldn't take two or three members to back a legit comment up because you don't want to do it. Sorry, but this isn't the place for just posting it on the approval page and then expecting instant approval. There's a process, and that process involves critique and comments.

tdlr; knock the damn artist's choice/it's fine/whatever on every damn image off- it's fricken annoying, stupid, and frustrating.

The general guideline has always been "change it unless you can provide a legitimate reason as to why it should stay other than 'I've done it before.'" If the change doesn't work out someone else is sure to come along and say so and you change it back but otherwise follow what other users say. <span style="">14:43 Wed Sep 10 2014

remember language, Skye, PG on the wiki I agree, but just sayin that I think if someone else agrees is fine because it isn't ruling anything out, it's saying that you think it's fine and you'd like a second opinipn. 21:13, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Damn is an acceptable PG word, Duck. Also, I supposr it's fine in moderation, but I'm seeing it done way too many times for me to be comfortable continuing to allow it. Unless a legit reason is given, I don't think we should let it go.

It's a borderline work, but I agree with that, it has been used tons lately and it should be used a bit less, but it should not be ruled out. 21:36, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Duck. <span style="">9:40 PM, Wed Sep 10, 2014

While i agree on the "Artist's Choice" thing to an extent, and the "Its fine." excuse, i completely disagree about asking for another opinion. The OA isnt outright declining your critique or ignoring it, they are simply asking for more opinions on that issue. Skye, Whenever anyone says something like one of the following above, it does not automatically mean someone thinks their images are "perfect". If they truly believe its fine, then let it be. I can bet alot of us in PCA have used one of these excuses before, especially asking for more opinions. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with asking for opinions before reuploading.-- 00:48, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Breeze, it's when it's done all the time on every image. That is my issue. Asking an opinion is perfectly fine, but it becomes redundant and annoying when it's done to the excess that it has been as of late. And I know some have done it because they don't want to change anything with their image. I did it with Turtle Tail's set since I had a specific pattern and did not want to change it.

Yes, but i dont agree with completely not allowing the use of asking for more opinions before reuploading. If the artist thinks its fine, then let them think that. But when another person comes along and agrees, it basically pushes them to reupload. I do think the "artist's choice" and "its fine" excuses are annoying, but i think asking for another opinion is completely fine. I understand your points, but i still disagree about simply asking for more opinions.-- 01:18, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah but it shouldn't come to a vote every time an image is critiqued, which is exactly what you're saying should happen. That is both time consuming and completely stupid to be honest. The artist posts it and the image is critiqued. If you can provide a reason other than "I think it's fine" or "I've done it before" then do so but if you don't change it simply because you don't want to then you're in the wrong place and I'd suggest you go fill out lineart on dA, because that is exactly what goes on. Everybody has done it (I've done it) and it needs to stop. Just because you think its fine doesn't mean it is. Other people can often see things differently in a picture that you missed because you're blinded by seeing the image for such a long time it all looks the same. Hence why if you watch people do speedpaints and the like you see them reverse the image all the time - it creates a fresh new view. If someone sees something wrong with a picture its generally because there's something wrong with it and it needs to be fixed. People get blind to the flaws in their images and that's why we have critiquing on the approval page. Follow it. <span style="">2:55 Thu Sep 11 2014

Since I've said this before, it is honestly because I thought at the time it was fine. But in my opinion, there is always room for improvement in an image, no matter who the artist is, and if the image needs to be fixed, then fix it. Everyone's opinions and styles are different, and there isn't much we can do to change that. Honestly, and by no means to I want to sound rude/snippy, I think this project needs to coordinate more in a team effort and accept other peoples' opinions. We are all unique, just like our art. I see a lot of the "it's fine" or the "I don't want to change it" when it comes to shading. For example, there can be dark shading, which is a preference (and it suits most patterns), but there is also too dark for the pelt color. People give critique to help improve the image, and if the artist doesn't understand that something on their image needs to be changed, then maybe the image making process isn't for them, especially if there is more than one comment about a certain topic. <span style="">21:17 Mon Sep 15

What about on defining shading? What are the rules on that? Forgive me for being confused, but... <span style="">9:18 PM, Mon Sep 15, 2014

hi may i join pca
may i please join.

Sure - I'll add you in now as a kit - welcome to the PCA! Also, just so you know, please sign messages after leaving them with four of these - ~ - and you only need one heading when requesting to join. 16:02, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Can I join?
Hi. Can I join the project? This is the right place right? Stealthfire star (talk) 23:09, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Stepping down
I'd like to step down from my post as SW in this project; my lack of activity just makes me feel like I'm not worthy of the role anymore. I'd like to remain a warrior, but for now, school and real life personal issues have proved too much and I can't do what I need to for this project.

Maybe some day I'll earn this title back, but for now, I've got real life issues to deal with. Thanks guys. <span style="">13:17 Thu Sep 11

Seedpaw.
So, after i was looking on her profile, I see that her main image has two tabs. Her normal starclanner, and an alt.

Question is; Which description does that alt need to be? Pale ginger or Tortie? Maybe we should give the other two starclan images, aswell? 20:50, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

She'll be getting a pale ginger alt because she was described as a pale ginger tabby in The Last Hope and it's been used as much as her golden-brown has been she won't be getting a tortie because that was only mentioned as her description once, by kate, not in the books. pretty sure that's right 23:07, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Now that we have this up, would the same thing apply to Stoatfur and some of the others, whose descriptions were used equally?

I do believe so, at least in Stoatfur's case - both descriptions have been used equally (and Stoat's first one was in-book, while his second was allegiances-only.) Larkwing's and Crouchfoot's were Kate confirmations, as was Amberpaw's and Heronwing's, therefore they do not get alts. Lilyheart's is debatable as Kate's description was used in-book and confirmed, while she has the description of being called dark tabby, so therefore I'd believe she'd be in the same case as her sister - only having the tortie as her main, and her tabby as her alt. 23:22, September 11, 2014 (UTC)