Forum:Dark Forest & No-Rank Blanks

No-Rank Blanks

 * Hi everyone. I saw this in the archives and I've decided to bring it up again.

I think a no rank blank could be useful. For example, the cats in the park, and Brightspirit, since she really had no rank whe we know she was alive once, as well as the cats who died again and vanished, because Spottedleaf's main photo is shown as a StarClanner, and she isn't, as well as Tigerstar and quite a few others.
 * This is just an idea that came into my mind. ^^ ~ Burntclaw  Yolo ♫ ♪ 12:15, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

I'm honestly quite neutral about this. IMO it would just give us some kind of unnecessary chararts to do, but I don't hate the idea. 12:24 Thu Feb 5

To cross-post what Whiskey said: "We don't need a blank for cats without a rank as all cats have a rank we just don't know it." I don't know what this would mean for the StarClan cats who have faded away (i don't think they would get an image then because they're just gone) but idk. 12:41 Thu Feb 5

The faded cats lost their rank, I'm not sure if that warrants a blank, they don't exist anymore. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 12:44, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I don't exactly think a no-rank blank would be completely necessary, but have we ever considered a Dark Forest blank? I don't follow talk a lot so I would most likely not know if there has been a discussion on that. But I think we should have one, I mean honestly, StarClan gets its own blanks, why not Dark Forest? 17:02, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

we've been over this so many times they dont get one because they're considered rogues. 17:49, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

I can understand why you suggest this but no, all cats have a rank (minus the ones that have faded, they have no rank), we just need to figure out what rank they are. -- 22:40, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

The cats that have faded shouldn't have images because they literally don't exist anymore. They shouldn't get an image if they dont exist lmao 23:17 Thu Feb 5

The "Cats of The Park" have ranks, it's "Cats of the park", however we aren't going to make blanks for cats of the park because it's totally unnecessary. I think a no- rank blank can clear out these kinds of ranks like The Tribe of Endless Hunting, for example? If you get what I mean. X.X ~ Burntclaw  Yolo ♫ ♪ 00:05, February 6, 2015 (UTC)

Also, do we have proof the faded cats are just gone? Who knows =/ They have no rank, and they aren't in StarClan or a rogue, as well as Scouge, and Jake. Erin's said "Tallstar goes out of StarClan to visit Jake" which means Jake is still there, just dead. I'm terrible at explaining so apologizes if that sounded dumb X_X ~ Burntclaw  Yolo ♫ ♪ 00:09, February 6, 2015 (UTC)

Wait though, you make a good point with the Cats of the Park. Even though we know little about them they were shown to be structured and distinguished themselves from other cats, which is more than enough to be a considered a group. Like, this wasn't just like Jingo and co they lived differently than other cats. I mean only like three cats will need the blank but I mean: softpaws.

But for the no-rank blank I still hold to what I said then. We either don't know what their rank in is in their group or they might be rogues loners or kittypets that's all there is to it.

Also, whomever was narrating about StarClan cats fading in whatever book it was in that I'm too lazy to care to look it up had said something like they're "clinging to the last remnants of their lives" implying that StarClan and the Tribe and Dark Forest and such are a different state than life or death, like a grey area where their bodies are dead but their spirits are not. But after that its just fan theory and in all honesty I doubt will ever know. But what we do know is that when StarClan cats fade they are Killed Off For Real and there's no need to make a blank for just dead.

And last thing, the reason StarClan has a blank is that they were said not have the ranks of the cats they were in life. We used to just have the charart of what rank they were last as their image, but in StarClan there aren't any ranks like elder, warrior, leader, medicine cat, or deputy, etc, so they are no longer the ranks of the cats they were, but they aren't rogues or loners either. That's why they have the StarClan blank - they don't fit into any other category. As for the Dark Forest cats, they have been described on a couple of instances as rogues, mainly the quote from Spottedleaf that they were 'rogues within their own Clans' so that's why they have rogue blanks. 6:14 Sat Feb 7 2015

To make a point, The dark Forest Cats were called many times as "Dark Forest cats", and called a whole community many times. *Shrugs and sneaks behind brick wall* ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 06:27, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, having a blank for the Cats of the Park wouldn't be too totally out of the question. They clearly had a structured system, members, ect. The softpaws only have a few characters using their blanks, as do the to-bes, so I'd be up for that. As for the no-rank blank to weed out the rest, it wouldn't necessarily be a "no-rank", because they have one- we just don't know what it is. Also, StarClan cats do die For Realsies once they die- we have Word of God confirmation that's exactly what happens to them. Pretty sure it says that on the StarClan article in one form or another... And the Dark Forest cats are rogues, so that's what we go with- there's an obvious form of hierarchy, though. Brokenstar, Tigerstar, and Mapleshade appear to be up at the top of this "leader list" for the Dark Forest...

I wouldn't object to that. What about the Tribe of Endless Hunting? Can't we use the StarClan blanks for those cats? After all, they are dead and spirits. ~ Burntclaw  Yolo ♫ ♪ 09:31, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps... It has been discussed before though. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 09:46, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

I know it has been discussed before, but can I make a point here? They joined the Tribe of Endless Hunting, and their rank clearly says that they are "The Tribe Of Endless Hunting", I know there was a cite for them maintaining their ranks, but it's possible that they hold their ranks and be a part of The Tribe Of Endless Hunting, too, right? Feathertail once stated that "I'm a part of the Tribe of endless hunting" so that means The Tribe of endless hunting is a specific rank, which we make blanks for all the ranks. So imo they should either get the StarClan blank or get a new one. As for the Dark Forest, they were called "Dark Forest cats" many times, and have their own hierarchy with leaders warriors and everything, so I think it counts as a rank too. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 11:16, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

I brought up about Tribe of Endless Hunting blanks a while ago if anyone wants to see it I think the Cats of the Park get their own blank, as they have their own unique costums and traditions. I think they can be considered a group like the Clans and Tribe if they get their own blanks. I still think the Tribe of Endless Hunting get their own blanks, though. If we look at Dark Forest cats, they are rogues, outsiders but 'rogue' could just be a way others describe them. They sorta have their own ranks, (leaders and such) and their own customs (training), and their own territory with ranks. That could be enough to consider them similar to StarClan and even the Clans in a way. -- 23:11, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

I actually think that "rogues within your clan" didn't actually call them rogues, it was just saying that they were in the clan once, but they betrayed the warrior code and act like rogues, so that's why they called them rogues. They were called "the dark forest cats" all the time, which clearly says that the dark Forest cats are an actual group, like Stealthfire said they have their own custom and territory. So methinks the Dark Forest cats should get their own blank. ~ Foxy Don't eat my food 00:41, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

I've fixed the page for the Cats of the Park. That'll probably makes things easier. -- 07:22, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

Only two of those cats have confirmed descriptions. Making a blank for them would be pointless. We've also discussed the Tribe of Endless Hunting blanks before (several times) and have already come to a conclusion on that. <span style="">00:07 Mon Feb 9

ok but I don't think just because theres two we shouldn't make one. the healer only had two images in use at one point until stoneteller came along quite a bit later, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 00:19, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with not making a blank for the cats of the park, they have their own custom, territory and unique style, so a blank should defintely be made for them. It's long overdue. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 00:27, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

What about Tall Shadow and Clear Wing's cats? Do they get blanks? 00:37, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think they would but idk what other people think. <span style="">02:25 Mon Feb 9

Idk, they aren't rogues or loners, but certainly they aren't warriors. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 03:01, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that. I'm thinking of leaders that aren't clan, (Scourge, Furled Bracken, Jingo etc) maybe we can make a non-clan leader blank for them. I still stand for blanks for the Cats of the Park, even it it's just a tweaked version of loner or something, like the non pregnant queen blanks. Speaking of those, when will that blank be added to the front page? -- 05:10, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Uh this discussion is spinning out of control, can we stick to the idea of making a blank for the cats of the park and decide what to do with the DF and TOEH cats? <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 12:03, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, im just gonna slide in here. I personally think we should have blanks for the DF cats/ cats of the park, but we barely have any cats with confirmed descriptions for a TOEH blank. I disagree with making blanks for Clear Skys/Tall Shadows cats aswell, since they are basically the first warriors, even if its not directly stated. Im fine with whatever we do, nonetheless, but i do agree on the other two blank ideas. It'll help reduce confusion to anons and guests visiting the wikia.-- 21:28, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

I think we should wait until the end of DOTC to see what Tall Shadow and Clear Sky's cats consider themselves. Then we'll have a clearer picture and if there's a distinction we can create blanks for them.

As for the Tribe of Endless Hunting: we don't know anything about them. Its possible they keep their old ranks of prey-hunter, cave-guard, or Stoneteller in the afterlife and we have no confirmation that they all become one rank like StarClan. To create a blank for them would be based off of an assumption.

As for the Dark Forest - I still think rogues are fine. They have a hierarchy but they're not distinguished by anything other than their disregard for the warrior code and their location. They're like BloodClan, I suppose? <span style="">21:46 Mon Feb 9 2015

The rogue blanks fit nicely for the DF cats. I'm pretty neutral about that. IIRC, the Tribe of Endless Hunting page says that cats keep their ranks in the ToEH, but I'd have to check. I'm also neutral for the Cats of the Park, because only two of them have confirmed descriptions, but I mean it could be a thing sure. Clear Sky/Tall Shadow's cats could get blanks, but I agree, we should wait until the end of DotC to decide. <span style="">22:55 Mon Feb 9

IMO the DF cats should get their own blank, "rogues within your clan" doesn't really mean they are rogues, the fact that they betrayed their clan and their brutality makes the clans call them rogues. In my opinion they aren't rogues, they stylized themselves as a distinguished clan of sort, with their own named territory and leadership. They were also called "DarkClan" once, I know it's a mistake but the Erin's probably made that mistake because they are their own group, not just a bunch of scattered rogues. In the battle they organized themselves neatly to go to war with the clans, unlike BloodClan, which they just attacked the clans as a whole. They were also addressed as "Dark Forest Cats", not really "rogue cats" in my memory, it was just said by Spottedleaf that they aren't clan cats, and they behave like rogues. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 00:14, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, they can be considered as loners because a there have been groups of loners (most notably Jingo's group). If they aren't organized enough, would they not just be loners like Jingo and the rest of them? <span style="">1:55 Tue Feb 10

You guys do realize that the Dark Forest cats fit every textbook definition of rogue we have right? They are basically rogues- just dead ones.

But Rogues aren't organized, and they certainly don't have their own territory as a big group, or their own style of life. And the DF cats were addressed as DF cats, not rogues. They also have their own rules, like when SpottedLeaf came to the DF Tigerstar had said, "You aren't supposed to be here." That proves they have their own custom. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 02:13, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

I raise you one BloodClan, which renders your argument about rogues not being organized kinda moot. Also, Spottedleaf clearly seems to want to call them rogues. This really just seems like an excuse for more chararts...

BloodClan is not an official Clan, but more of a loosely organized group of alley cats who live together in Twolegplace for mutual protection from Twolegs. This proves they don't work together very much... BloodClan is barely organized. And they don't really have their own boundaries and stuff like that within Twoleg place. Dark Forest cats have their own system, authority and organization. BrokenStar is their leader, with actual senior warriors. They arrange meetings, train and have their own set of rules. They work together as a whole, and were adressed as such too, so imo they really need a rank as such. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 10:31, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Little organisation doesn't mean no organisation. And is being called rogues not enough? They're flat out called it and yet people seem to be constantly ignoring it. And if they've got ranks like warriors and sw and leaders, shoudln't they be considered warriors and use warrior blanks according to that logic? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 10:35, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Of course BloodClan isn't official by Clan terms. I was talking they still have an organized structure, although moreso based upon power... idk about you, but The Rise of Scourge showed them as pretty organized. Still thinking this is more for the art, not for organization...

My logic leads nowhere to that, they aren't a clan so they won't get warrior blanks. And I'm arguing based on my opinion, not for art. I see both of your points, though, but I still stick to that they are way too distinguished to be rogues. <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting;font-size:12px; color:Red; text-shadow:Orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">~ Burntclaw <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;"> Yolo <span style="font-family: Lucida Handwriting; font-size:11px;color:Red; text-shadow:orange 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">♫ ♪ 11:44, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

tbh you're just turning this into a PW discussion on "what is a clan" and "what is a rogue" unless Word of God says otherwise, then they should stay rogues IMO <span style="">12:43 Tue Feb 10

I had a brief look at the history of Place of No Stars page, there is talk of warriors (Ivypool asking to be a full warrior) and if I remember correctly, she is a mentor with apprentices. They basically copied the ranking system of the Clans (with the exception of leader place, but that's like a few cats leading the Dark Forest) that's from memory. I don't have time now but I'll do a scan through some fo the books listed in the history and post quotes on their ranking system. -- 22:06, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Here we go! I posted it separately because it's very long.-- 10:11, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

With all of this, I think they should probably get a separate Dark Forest blank (that is if everyone agrees) because they're constantly referred to as warriors, and one supposed quote from Spottedleaf doesn't really outweigh several quotes from other cats. <span style="">12:38 Wed Feb 11

lol ok but if they're calling themselves warriors and use a mentoring system and w/e, then what's stopping them just using warrior blanks again? it's obvious that's what they consider themselves. 12:51, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

This is way too large, so I'm moving it to a forum- discuss here instead.