Forum:Warrior/Deputy/MC Blanks

Alright, putting this on a forum as per Jayce's request. Anything from the talk page is copy-pasted over here. 11:43, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

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Alright, let's get to the point. The warrior blanks need a redo.

Hear me out here, please. This topic has come into the chat a couple times now, and Jayce (as well as the others in the chat at the time) thinks now's a good time to bring this up. Or, probably foty-seven hours ago by the time I finish typing this.

The warrior blanks (And by extension, the deputies and medicine cats) have quite a few anatomical issues. Let's bring in an image of a cat in basically the same position. This one is good. Ignore the massive watermarks.

First thing I'm gonna have you look at is the spine. Compare for a minute- In the photo, the cat's back is curved outwards. That's natural. However, the warrior blanks simply have straight spines, and in order for that to happen on a real cat they'd need to have a broken spine. And then be precariously propped up. Or they could sit in a really awkward position, but then they still wouldn't be bent the same way as in the warrior blanks, and that'd just be painful. Poor kitties.

Second off is the tail. The image above doesn't have the tail in the same position, I'm afraid, so you'll just have to trust me. A cat's tail wouldn't be that straight. It'd be an awkward way for the cat to be sitting, and it'd be hard for them to get it as straight as a needle like that. The longhairs aren't so straight, but are bent somewhat awkwardly and just don't look long haired.

So that's the two biggest issues. There's no shoulder, or upper foreleg at all, the chin and head don't seem to attach to the body properly, the front legs attach to the chest far too low down (related to not having a shoulder, it basically looks like the forelegs are portruding from the belly), the haunches are just huge circles (in a standing position, it'd be like this, as compared to this), the muzzle doesn't seem to be the right shape (might just be me though), and the paws seem a bit... long? (also might just be me)

I also feel like medicine cats are too different a rank to look almost identicle to warriors. MCAs are fine since they're both apprentices, but MCs and warriors are totally different. Prey-hunters and Cave-guards get separate blanks, why should medicine cats just be warriors with herbs in their mouths?

Now, I know this would be a huge project. There's precisely four hundred and sixty-five images that would be redone, not counting the deputies and med cats. However, by the time this discussion is over most of the new images will be finished. After that, it appears that the next release is going to be in September. By September, we would have at least a quarter of the warriors done. Jayce suggested that doing the warriors first would be best, and then doing the MCs and deputies after that.

So, what are all of your opinions on this? I thiiink I've covered it all, but if anybody else sees anything I've missed then please mention it ^_^ If I've come across as rude, or anything like that, then my sincerest apologies. 22:58, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

You've literally said everything we need to hear. And I agree 00:03, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. Ive noticed this for a long time now, and if i had known i wasnt the only one i wouldve mentioned this a long time ago. It may take awhile, but itll be worth it. 00:52, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

What I can say is, thanks for saying all these. I've been thinking about the warrior blank for absolutely ages, but I didn't say it. Tbh I was just thinking about this last night. I do agree with you, but considering that it'll be a big project to be done, I think we should let everyone agree with this. the warrior blank looks like a fox/dog! 01:09, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Hi guys I know I'm no longer a part of the wiki anymore, but hear me out a little bit. For as long as I was a member, we always argued that we didn't have to be perfectly realistic. And honestly, none of the blanks are truly perfect. All of them have flaws or unrealistic aspects in some way, and there's no real helping that. I am personally against this redo, especially since it encompasses so many images. Tabby stripes aren't perfectly realistic in every image, some people still don't shade realistically as if it were a real body, not everyone uses textures, not everyone has mottled tabby appearances and still does big, blotchy patches even without the proper amounts of white on the body, and honestly, if we're going to be this picky, I feel as if you'd need to fix those too, since those also aren't perfectly realistic.

Tweaks and redos used to be a special thing, and PCA would close for periods between books because there weren't images to do, and the wiki still operated fine, and I feel as if everyone's gotten to the point where we're scraping for things to do in order to seem active in the project. Closing PCA between books should theoretically boost activity in other aspects of the wiki, as PCA used to be a privilege- a sort of treat for working so hard between books on other aspects of wiki life, by allowing people to participate in the "fun art project".

With 400+ images to redo, I honestly feel like this mission is ridiculous, and if this passes, it will take years to complete it all. Is it really worth going through this big of a struggle for minor details? 01:22, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I actually see your point, Leggy. Maybe we should get a vote on this instead. While I do agree that the blank does look extremely unrealistic (no offense to the OA), it would be a huge stress for PCA to redo 400< images. I am not sure whether I agree or not. 01:28, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Foxy, that's exactly what I mean. It's a hard decision for everyone, thinking about 500+ images including the meds and deputies 01:36, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

You actually have a very good point, Leggy. I agree with the vote - it would be alot easier to see what the /whole/ project majority would want. Im honestly unsure about this now. 02:04, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

if you really feel the medicine cat blanks need a change then change THEM theres not nearly as many of them. an 400+ images is just too much, honestly. :/ 03:11, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I definitely agree with the medicine cats being redone, but I'm not so sure with the Warriors though. 04:26, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, this is a toughy. I grew up with cats (and still have them) so I agree that they can be changed, but that is a lot of images. I think the medicine cat is reasonable, as deputy and warrior is similar, it's just the deputy has extra responsibilities and respect, but the medicine cat is different. I think an idea for the tail is to make it curve over their back, my cat does it all the time, even when standing up. I'm not judging because we don't have enough art to do (I sometimes think there is too much, the Erin's release a lot of books these days) a tweak like this would be a bit overwhelming, but if were very organised and civilized, it's doable. 05:09, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I personally feel that the blanks could do for a tweak. However that might also be a bit difficult. 05:31, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to disagree or agree with anything, but I'd like to point out that if the blanks have an anatomy problem then the sooner they get re-done, the less images we would need to do. 400 is a huge amount and = a lot of stress, but it's still possible if we work hard. 07:47, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

maybe but the blanks aren't the first priority of this wiki and this energy could be better put into finishing off the multiple artciles that are missing sections. this can easily be brought up later? 08:07, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, blanks aren't the first priority, but PCA is a project running itself, with its own concerns. If the blanks have a problem and need to be redone then the sooner the better, the time is quite right now since the next book is released in September, which is 5 months away. I'm neutral on this, on one hand the blanks are a little unrealistic, but on the other its just too much stress, with 500> images to be done. I am happy to whatever we decide on. 08:16, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

ok but theres still chararts to do, plus if this does go through then I don't see why it can't wait until the end of the dawn of the clans? because then we wont have anything apart from super editions/novellas if theres any released during that time and then we have to wait until the new series. 08:18, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

We can decide on that later. For now we have to decide if we agree with Shinx. And in my opinion the five month time is quite a bit, and since redoing the warriors would count as redone images the dotc chararts can be done at the same time. 08:22, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

uh no, they would be new images, so they would have to go through the approval process. it can go to a vote or whatever, but after that people can learn to wait, images aren't the most important thing. 08:24, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

The queens were redone images? 08:25, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

no, they went through the approval pricess but owing to the amount it was allowed to be done aside another image. while that could be done here, I still think it's better to wait until dotc is done, as there's only one book to go as it is. 08:27, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah that's what I was trying to say, apologizes for being unclear. 08:30, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

The point isn't that it needs to be perfect, nor am I trying to be ridiculously nitpicky. The problem is, the warrior blanks just have a //lot// of problems, more than the rest of the blanks (well, some of the other blanks bug me too, but still). PCA has done large projects like this in the past- the apprentices were done in 2011 and the queens just last year. Sure, neither of them had even close to 465 images (More like a hundred or so each?), but it was still a lot. I honestly don't care about 200% realism at all, and if I did I'd be a bit of a hypocrite.

While I see your point, Leggy, I also have to disagree. I'm not scraping for things to do, if I were I certainly wouldn't pick the warriors of all things. And again, the warrior blanks have enough errors I do think they could do with at least a tweak. It may just be me, but I see more issues on these than I did on the old queens, to be honest.

It wouldn't have to be all done immediately. If this were to pass, it could wait until DotC is over. I really don't care when it's done. After DotC is actually a good time, since we have the allegiances to TAQ, which probably gives us at least most of the new chararts for that book dealt with.

Yes, it'd take a long, long time. But I think we could probably do it. 10:11, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

While I do agree that the anatomy is completely wrong, the amount of images we'd have to redo is what's making me lean toward not doing this. Warriors alone, there's 465 images to redo, not to mention, at least 100 more counting the deputies and medicine cats. Yes, we have done huge projects before, however, there are only 168 queens, and 294 apprentices. Those numbers were much lower in 2011, as there were not as many books out - these numbers are the amount of images currently.

Doing this, even after the DoTC arc is finished, would be way too much, and while I support the redo of the blanks, the amount of images we'd have to redo would take more than months, it could take a year or two, considering each image has to go through the approval process, and I really don't think we should be putting ourselves through something like that. 10:35, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I totally agree the blanks need help, but like it's been said, it would take many months to do them. If it passes, maybe the PCA members can do 2-3 at a time so they can get it done faster? Just a suggestion. 12:53, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I thought it was a good thing to bring up, given how fast-paced this project can get when there's something that they want done. They told us it was a suicide mission to do the apprentice blanks, the loner blanks, and the rogue blanks (which honestly, were all pretty close in time to each other), and we proved that we could get everything done. Given the current amount of the warrior images, and the amount of people we have, it's still possible to get it done- we've allowed users to have two "redone blank" images on the approval page- and I'd be willing to allow three if and only if they can handle the workload. I don't want to see users taking three images on at a time if they can barely work on one.

That being said, the anatomical issues on the warriors, deputies, and medicine cats are flat out bad, and have issues that a "tweak" of the blanks wouldn't fix. Alternatively, we could always redo the deputies first, and then move on to the medicine cats, and then see where we are after that. If it proves to be too much of a workload, then we won't do the warriors. Or, we could always do the warriors in waves- say... in alphabetical order? Perhaps do warriors beginning with the letters A-F for a while, and then when they're done, move onto the next group, and then the next group, and then finally, the alternates? It's totally possible to do this if you put your mind to it- the amount of blanks we have is just a number.

I know I'm not in PCA or even allowed to fix more than a typo on this wiki, but I definitely agree that at the very least medicine cats should get new blanks. I've always hated the warrior blanks for some reason, especially the tail on the shorthair looking weird, and I agree with the point that medicine cats should get a new pose completely. I'll even join PCA to help, somehow, if this sounds really selfish that someone who doesn't take their time to do all this, is helping push those who do all the work to do more. But I can at least offer my opinion as a voice of the people not in PCA. Cheetodust (talk) 14:00, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I don't see the point of redoing 400+ images over minor anatomical issues. If they're gonna be changed at all, I think tweaking the blanks is fine. If in doubt, like some people have suggested - maybe we could just redo the meddie and deputy blanks. All those warrior images will take too long, I think, if each member does one at a time. However, I'm with Tiger, if the warrior blanks have to be tweaked/redone - each user = two redone blanks at a time. 14:19, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget about the shorthaired cats' tails. The tips aren't supposed to be so round. It literally looks like a cylinder. I think we need to make them a bit pointed, with some fluff. Every cat has a little bit of fluff, unless specifically stated as 'extremely short-haired'. Also the warrior blanks' tails need to be less....string-like? They're too thin, thus why most of the people have a hard time defining shading and light on them. They should be more furry, per se. 14:24, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

Hi I would like to really point out how popular this project is and how you guys are considering doing this massive project while there are other aspects of the wiki that still have a ton of work that still need to be done. The wiki works as a whole. For my time on the wiki, PCA was a reward for working so hard, and if other aspects of the wiki were lacking, (like whole book sections being empty on pages when the book's been out for some time) the project was closed until further notice. This area of the wiki still receives the most attention because it is the fun art project, but there's other things here that need an equal amount of work done, if not more. I am still highly against this, however, I don't get a vote. Nonetheless, I would highly recommend putting this off until after the current arc of books is done and there's a larger gap in the rate of books being published. Do not neglect the other projects. 23:20, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

To be honest considering that there's over 600 images that would have to be redone i don't think it'd be worth it unless we were to up the redone image count, however it's up to you all to decide how this will go so [shrug emoji]

Gotta agree with Leg - there's a lot of projects that could use some attention, and with Arc 6 coming out rather soon after DotC no. 6... well, it's up to you guys - majority rules, after all. 23:25, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right about the blanks as far as realism, but they don't have to be totally realistic. Redoing 600+ images for this seems to be unnecessary to me. And for the medicine cat blanks, I honestly think they're fine. They represent medicine cats just fine, imo. But I'm happy with whatever you all decide. 23:39, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

You guys have got to be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me, right? Cut it out with all of these "realism" excuses. You guys just want more art, and that's ''it. ''We NEVER had a problem with realism with these blanks. What's wrong with them? They're cats. They look like cats. They've got paws, a tail, a muzzle, and a head. What is so unrealistic about that? What about the medicine cats? It's the same thing with herbs. There is NOTHING wrong with the blanks, and there's no need to redo 400 images because you don't like the blanks. The blanks are fine. You don't need to make them look like you actually studied a cat for 72 hours straight and spent the entire 72 hours staring at them and jotting down their every movement. No. There is no need to redo these blanks. They do not have to be redone. 23:46, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to go back to my point before- If the warriors have issues, redo them now and the less images we would have to do in the future if somebody else brings this up again. And also, it's not an impossible project to do, and not only that, not doing something because "there are other projects" and "it's too much" is kind of lazy. PCA is PCA and is NOT PC or PB, if those chapter pages need to be finished, it shouldn't hinder PCA's work, PCA does art. if PCA needs art, not doing them because "the other projects need work" is... Sounds like an excuse? 00:44, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Like it was said before, instead of debating, we should just vote to see the outcome, even if this topic is fairly new. 02:37, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, let's honestly start the vote instead of stabbing each other's backs 02:52, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah this is getting us no where, and it's a little bit daunting and out of control. A fair vote will sort this. 04:03, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with whats been said above. A fair vote would reduce the hositility and stress. 04:10, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, how do we start it? 04:59, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Burntclaw, I'm going to call out something that you said really quickly: PCA isn't even needed on this wiki. In case everyone here has forgotten, Warriors Wiki is an encyclopedia, and unless you're a first grader or using a children's encyclopedia, the average one lacks images for every entry in it. Books like Bramblestar's Storm have been out since August yet entries for it are still missing from major characters' pages, like Bumblestripe. PCA has always been a treat- a reward for work done in other projects. It's like dessert after a meal. If only dessert is being eaten, then you'll die from such unhealthy eating habits. If the wiki is only cranking out artwork, then what's the damn point?

Furthermore, the warrior blanks have the same number of issues as the ancient blanks or the starclanners or the leaders, even, so why aren't we redoing those as well? None of them look like a realistic, in-the-flesh cat. People don't have the proper sized tortoiseshell patches corresponding with the amount of white they put on the cat, so we should fix those too, as those aren't realistic, and there is a proven direct correlation between the two. All tortoiseshells need stripes then, for that matter, and while we're at it, all of the cats except for absolute solids need facial tabby markings, as almost every cat has them. Why stop there?

There is a point in which things need to be contained and a foot needs to be put down, and when the project lead is even hesitant to do something, then y'all need to pay damn attention. That person worked their ass off to get where they are now, and they know better than apprentices or mere warriors. If they don't know what they're doing, then the whole project is screwed. And no, don't just skip to a vote, because if valid points are being raised and there aren't sufficient counterclaims, then a vote isn't needed. There has never been a vote for Jingo needing a leader blank, even if it was just brought up, because people discussed the need for such images on a talk page. That's why discussions are made and what the damn page itself is for. If the discussion is "daunting" and "out-of-control", then you need to control it before you start a vote with such wild accusations still being uncontrolled. You cannot have a calm, fair vote if such major issues like this are being ignored and no counter is being raised for them.

If we redo the warriors, I say we redo the ancients, starclanners, apprentices, and all the other blnaks while we're at it, for they also contain stylistic choices by the artist in them, and can also be argued to be incorrect anatomically if we're going to get this nit-picky. 05:01, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

This... is why we want a vote. Discussing is much more chance of arguing, and "you need to control it", I am not senior warrior or above. So I'm going to do my best with that and say, CALM DOWN! discussions are made to have replies, while votes are not, so are more easily controlled. Everyone's given a good opinion, let's make sure everyone's give their side and everyone's considered both sides, then go for a vote. I believe that's the best way to go. 05:13, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

A vote is a waste of time if it can be argued on a talk page: you only go to a vote if it seems something might be passed. We need discussion and frankly, this has been an incredibly short one. Give it another week or two before going to a vote, because you're all jumping the gun a bit by going to one now. Trust me, I've been a senior warrior in this project, a rollback on this wiki for my entire duration here, and a leader in PB, so I believe I have a fair grasp of when a vote is needed and when something can be fixed on a talkpage. 05:27, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

We could just wait until the series is over and then bring up redoing them again. I mean there are a LOT of blanks it would take FOREVER. There'd be tons of time if we reconsidered when the series has finally ended. 5:30 Thu Apr 16 2015

Okay, I know PCA isn't needed, thank you, and I'm not a first grader who reads children books. But now that PCA is here- a project itself, it has work to do. Are there problems? Fix them, the end. If we are going to avoid issues like this and avoid it because it's "too much", then I'd say close PCA if it bugs people so much. Also, now that it's up, there's no point in waiting, let's just try and get this settled. 05:41, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

I'm just gonna pop in here and say we are not closing PCA. It was a hellish mistake and none of the people who said to close it even stayed to help. >.>

There is a point in waiting as it would mean that there would be nothing else for us to do later if the series is at a close. If we wanted to redo these blanks we should have done them in the first few books of DOTC when there were less characters being introduced, not when we're getting to the point where we'll have many new warriors again and a sixth series to work on. Nobody is saying we need to close PCA - we tried that. But we also shouldn't tackle such a big project when the other projects are still in full swing and need help. Basically, if we ever redo these blanks they should be done as a final project to complete the wiki.

Also votes are only held if we can't come to a consensus through extensive discussion or as a way to make a record for huge decisions.

And also, not all of us ended up having the time to commit to the wiki after the closure of PCA. 5:51 Thu Apr 16 2015

I was referring to the people who came back just to support closing the project, then up and left again. Many of those people were active on other wikis and external websites- but that's a matter for a different day. Waiting until the series ends is a nice alternative, though.

If the Warriors have major atanomy problems, then not redoing/tweaking them because "it's too much" or "PCA is not important" is NOT helping for PCA to keep open. If apparently effort shouldn't be put into the project just because it's "it's not important" then it should be closed. But guys, PCA isn't a project that hinders the wiki, and now that it's here, problems in the project should be fixed. And the TAQ characters are already out, so that means their images would be done and we would have not much to worry about. And what about the 5 month period until POS is out? We should finish this discussion now, and we can sort this all out in the 5 month period. 06:13, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Gonna slide in here. If you're insinuating that we might be able to get all the 500+ images redone in a period of five months, you're wrong. It will take at the very least double, possibly triple that amount of time. Personally, I think that if we are doing this, it should be done after the series is completely finished, and a good chunk of the articles are done.

Also, I think what they're trying to say is that PCA has always attracted the most users, since it involves making art, rather than writing out character pages and looking up citations and all that. The amount of users in PCA, compared to the amount in PC, PB, PW, and PR is much higher, and that's to be expected. People want to make images, there aren't many who want to write out articles. This is an encyclopedia, and if the character pages aren't done...what's the point? An encyclopedia is valued for its information, and if the information isn't there, then there's not exactly a point, is there? People glance at the images for maybe two seconds, and move on. They read the articles for a lot longer. In my opinion, we should put PCA on the backburner and focus on what the people are going to read, because we're a valid source of information, for the authors themselves. 10:38, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see what PCA has to do with PC, PB, PW, ect. If there's nothing for PCA to do, that's not going to spontaneously make everybody in PCA want to edit articles. Some might decide "hm I'm bored maybe I could give this a shot", but I can guarantee that's not going to be the case with everybody. That was proved when PCA shut down last year, and the wiki suddenly lost a lot of it's editors. Most likely, any members of PCA who are interested in editing articles are already editing articles. And as for the "you guys want art and that's it", I'm actually slightly hurt. I have better things to do in my life than make pretty cat art. I believe most people do. The "you guys want art" excuse comes up in almost every discussion in PCA now, it seems. And I dunno why you guys are adding an extra 200 to the number. It's not 600+ images.

Now, could we //please// settle this in a civilized manner, rather than screaming at each other rudely? I'm sorry, I probably sound like a hypocrite here, but there's absolutely no need to start a war. Thank you. 11:43, April 16, 2015 (UTC)