Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Discord "Pre-Reservations"
I noticed a lot of this lately. Basically people "reserve" things before blanks are approved, and tell an admin on discord or something. If someone happens to reserve that image before they do, they receive a lot of backlash and the image goes to that person who "pre-reserved" it eventually. This happened to me before with Needletail, and I should've brought this up earlier. I think we either stop with these "pre-reservations" altogether, or make it an official thing on the wiki. It's unfair to those, like me, who don't use discord and have no idea who reserved what and what's "available", even though technically they are all free game. Thoughts?

I think the pre-reservations are helpful and are actually more fair in a way. Lots of us have totally different timezones and always get screwed over by wiki time when things get approved and we don’t get to the ones we want in time. It’s really helpful and takes a lot of stress off.

However, I wasn’t aware about the issue with it going to the pre-reserve person. I think that if you manage to reserve an image before the big pre-reserve, it should be yours.

I agree with need to fix this, and maybe making it official would work, or at least having some sort of notice/page for everyone to see. Good on you for bringing it up Fox!! :) 05:24, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

its unfair to those who dont use discord. on the other hand, timezones and edit conflicts suck, so i support the idea of having an official prereserve page where people express interest in prereserving images. people with reservation conflicts can discuss it amongst themselves. however, as of now having it done on discord is unfair and this should be addressed. 05:27, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

I don't have an issue with people wanting/pre-reserving images because yeah, timezones put people at a disadvantage. But when people who reserved images fairly are forced to hand over images simply on the basis of people saying "I wanted it" "I told an admin on discord" etc., it becomes unfair, especially if the person wouldn't have known about it beforehand. For me personally, I had no idea Needletail was "pre-reserved" because I didn't go on discord, but my reservation was rebuked and changed. I shouldn't be punished on the basis of not going on discord and not knowing about an unofficial reservation. The reason I'm bringing this up now is because I don't want a repeat of this for the leader blanks, warrior blanks, etc. If we make this official where everyone's decisions are transparent with everyone, I'd be fine with it.

I will admit, I was one of the ones who did a massive pre-reverse because no one took an issue and it was usually only 5 or so hours in advance. Although I think a pre-reverse table beats the idea of a reservation table in general since it is first come first serve, I think Fox brings up a very valid point. Also, I want to add that "I told an admin on discord" is null and should not qualify in any way shape or form. But, if this proves to be an issue, then it should not be allowed. 05:36, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

Addition: Pre-reverses, whenever they are, are not official and never have been. So Fox, whoever removed your reservation if you reversed first was completely uncalled for. Other than that, I can only see pre reverses being official in a case for OAs. 05:37, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed with everything Icy said. Prereserves are unofficial, and they don't hold any claim until they're put up. I do like the idea of trying to find another way to do "prereserving", but unsure where we could include everyone since not everyone has Discord, etc. — ♡ you're such  ' re such a dream to me." data-rte-attribs=" style title=you're such a dream to me."&gt;a dream to me. (05:41, 2/10/2019) ​

If anything, if there were pre-reserves you could always do them on the wikia chat (when/if enabled). That way everyone could get involved. 05:42, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

We could make a disscussion forum perhaps? 05:46, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

Chat is easily missed for those who don't come on the right time. If anything, it should be a forum/discussion page.

But, if we officially pre-reserve, the reservation table loses its purpose as well. 05:49, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

Why have these at all? Like, if it wasn’t an issue then hey why not, but having them on a forum and stuff like that with discussions and everything just seems kinda not. Wow it’s late. I’m for just doing things the traditional way, racing to their own and that’s that. And perhaps generally try to CBA blanks at a time that isn’t 3:40am for a good chunk of our EST editors (and many who are otherwise in the US, 2:40 or 1:40am). About 12:00 would work for a lot more people and would hit pretty much all of our editors timezones.

I'm in agreement with Spooky. I'd rather keep things the traditional way. 05:59, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Although I have been the one doing the pre-reservations, I believe now is the time to stop. 06:02, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

What about a page within PCA that's basically for marking your interest in an image? No official reservation, just something to notify people that you would like to work on it, and the other people wanting to reserve it can do what they wish with that information. Most people are fairly good about working out conflicts among themselves when multiple people want the same image, either by not reserving the image at all or contacting the other person who wants to reserve it. And if the conflict can't be resolved, then they can always resort to the traditional method of trying to be the first to place it on the reservation table. This would at least give people who can't be online as soon as the images are available a higher chance of getting what they want, without being an official reservation and making things unfair.

But whatever the case, I don't think there should be any rule that says you can only reserve images for yourself. People have always been allowed to personally ask friends to reserve an image for them if they won't be online, and that seems a lot more reasonable that a mass reservation via discord. Plus it still follows normal rules, if someone else beats your friend and reserves the image first you just have to deal, so it's not any less fair than you trying to reserve yourself. The sketchiness only comes with when there's an organized big batch of images being added all by one person imo.

"Sketchiness" implies there's ulterior motives... which has never been the intent. Mass reserving spiraled out of control, as it initially started with just a couple of people and it escalated to a larger group of people. There was no ulterior motives here, it was just something nice Icy wanted to do for everyone since lately images have been approved in the early AM when some users (mostly American) are sleeping. — ♡ you're such  ' re such a dream to me." data-rte-attribs=" style title=you're such a dream to me."&gt;a dream to me. (09:43, 2/10/2019) ​

honestly ive once been involved in the prereserving thing (over skype tho not discord, and a reaaaaaally long time ago loll) and i sincerely does think it does help users who are disadvantaged in terms of timezone and stuff. however i dont support the fact that it happens solely off wiki. instead i agree for a page that allows you to express interest in certain images, as paleclaw suggested. in no way would it be official, but i think it can help settle the edit conflicts a little better especially in a time where many blanks are being redone and mass reservations and stuff are happening like every week 10:06, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

The term sketchiness wasn't meant to imply ulterior motives or anything of the sort. It was only meant to imply that it enters into the gray zone of what's considered fair or unfair.

Wait, what? The mass reserves are only supposed to be done after the blanks are approved... am I missing something here, Fox? They were typically only done if someone couldn't get online, or to reduce the amount of edit conflicts. There's never been any ill intent behind these to my knowledge, but if people agree that it seems unfair, then we'll definitely put a stop to it. =) ​​​

I mainly have an issue with people who tell the admins or whoever on discord that they "want" a certain image (before the blanks are approved). And then if someone else happens to reserve that image first, they would get backlash. Others would avoid reserving the image altogether, which sort of defeats the purpose of the reservation table? not talking about one person reserving images for their friends, I don't have a problem with that. The main issue is some of us don't go on discord, so there's no way of knowing who wants what and what to "avoid" reserving when the blanks are approved. For example, someone "wanted" Needletail on discord, but I reserved it first (since I don't go on discord, I didn't know about it). My reservation was removed. This morning someone also told me that they wanted an image and told Icy about their intent. I was reminded of the Needletail situation and didn't want a repeat of it.

Though now that mass reservation has been brought up, I think it's somewhat unfair to those who don't use discord. It defeats the purpose of the reservation table because you can technically "reserve" something beforehand, and if you aren't part of this mass pre-reservation thing you're automatically at a disadvantage in terms of claiming images. I think Paleclaw's idea of having an "interest page" is great. Those who don't go on discord and have a time zone disadvantage can express their interest in doing an image.

Okay so here's my two cents: prereserving was meant to be a way for others to get images if they really couldn't at said time, and they wouldn't be online for another couple hours or so. I myself have been screwed over by this recent CBA, since it occured at a time where I wouldn't be online at that time. And I can't stay up so no chance of jumping on it. I agree with you Fox that doing it soley over Discord is screwing over non-Discord users, but the idea of an official prereservation page defeats the purpose of a reservation table. Having something loose where we can discuss said reservations would be ideal, as others have suggested. However, CBAing images when most people aren't asleep or at school would also be helpful. Not trying to sound passive-aggressive or the like, I'm just trying to state my feelings. It kinda pisses me off when people are online at the approval time and I'm not soley because I'm sleeping or at school. Now if I'm not online because I chose not to be, then that's my fault. I'm not mad that others reserved it beforehand, I'm mad that they could get to it earlier and I couldn't because I couldn't be available at said time. Sorry if this is a mouthful to read and it jumps all over the place I'm not very coherent since I just woke up lol.

I mean, at one point I expressed interest to do three images, all of which belong to Jayce, and she said i could, is that ok? Malina457 (talk) 19:28, February 11, 2019 (UTC)malina

This thread is discussing "prereservations" that happen in Discord, where one person mass reserves for people right after blanks are approved. This is not about discussing OA claims. — ♡ you're such  ' re such a dream to me." data-rte-attribs=" style title=you're such a dream to me."&gt;a dream to me. (21:33, 2/11/2019) ​

Malina, what I did was gave up my OA claims and passed them onto you; that is most definitely allowed and not quite the same thing. The three images I personally gave you (Finchflight, Breezepelt, and Nightcloud's warriors) are all yours to create and you have first dibs. ​​

If I may, I have a suggestion. Although I am not exactly a huge part of PCA.. I can see what's going on here. So, I suggest that maybe there is a page made. Users who are particularly passionate about a certain character they want to try will be listed, assuming that the OA has not claimed the art piece yet. This would probably be best prior to blank approval.. On that page, if there is discontent, then perhaps that can be solved individually? Furthermore, the users will also put a time they added their character. I'm not sure how to explain this. Sort of a vote? I understand it might be more tedious, but there's no way every user is gonna be online and be able to land the pieces they want. I will also be willing to help out with a spreadsheet of some sort. Idk. Just a thought ^^ -- PyroNacht

I really like the idea of a spreadsheet/google doc

Any other comments? It seems that a lot of people are on board with the idea of having an interest page, if I'm not mistaken.

(This be Pyro on a new account ^^ ) I am more than willing to put together a Google spreadsheet and/or document, as I am extremely proficient in Excel and the related functions. However, in order to do that, I will need to ask: if we go through with this Interest page/document/etc, how long should we give others to review and solve? I'm sort of envisioning it like this: we have a talk or subpage for Interests only. That is where all things will go. I will add interests to a Google spreadsheet accordingly with proof of the edit (so anybody who DMs such would need to post on the page for fairness), and there will be a timer function that counts down from the moment the edit was made. My question is, what should the time limit be? And if there's no dispute, that character goes to said person. I hope this makes sense and I apologize if it seems like I'm taking charge - I just would like to help out however I can ^^ --OhlookSinesta (talk) 19:01, February 17, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there should be a timer function because that defeats the purpose of the reservation table. I think, as Paleclaw said, that we should just let people do whatever they want with the information about other people's interests.

I also think a talk page/sub page would suffice, though a Google doc would also work.

Ack, I've been crazy busy. Alright, I'm gonna throw together a spreadsheet and I'll make a new discussion section with the link when I'm done ^^ --OhlookSinesta (talk) 22:20, February 25, 2019 (UTC)

idk this whole thing just would kinda defeat the purpose of the reservation table. not everyone has the discord, and its no longer on the actual site itself, so i think we should stick to it being on the wiki itself. like dont get me wrong sometimes pre-reservations are a good thing but idk 17:34, 2/27/2019

interest pages wouldn't because they aren't official reserves, just telling people what they're interested in doing.

Comments? 21:25, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

If we are to create an interest page, now would be a good time as people have conflicts all over the place and it's hard to come up with a working date for everyone. Potentially the conflict can be eased if people know what others want to do.

I agree with making an interest page, at least for the elders/warriors/kits. Does anyone disagree/any more comments?

16:15, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

I think its a waste of time and effort to make an interest page. If you want to do an image, reserve it with everyone else. 17:36 Sun Mar 24 2019

I agree with Breezy. It seems unnecessary to make an interest page when we have more important things to be dealing with, I also doubt an interest page would even be useful. Sure, it may make people aware of images others would like, but really, would it do anything? I doubt an interest page is going to hinder multiple people from going after one image, it's still first come first serve and if they have the opportunity to get it, they're gonna take it. So what's the point? I'd much rather do what we have always done. 18:47, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

I also agree with the above. This project has gone through many book releases and blank redos the same way, before Discord and even the wiki chat were a thing. I think adding an interest page or document to try and fulfill everyone's wishes would be too cluttered, and in the end, some might not still get the image that they want. Trying to accomdate for every member of the project and their wants sounds good, but will never truly happen. The project has always been first come first serve, and sometimes you don't get the image that you want. We have pages that already list the images that are going to be needed, which I think is enough to get an idea of the characters you might want to end up doing. The only 'problem' that has ever come from the traditional way of reserving images is not getting the image you want, but that's not necessarily a 'problem' with the efficiency of the project as a whole. I agree with just keeping things the way that they are and reserve an image on the table when the time comes around. 19:19 Sun Mar 24

I also agree this is not needed. I have a feeling this will cause a war and will completely overshadow the reservation table.-- 22:25, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

Non-Clan Leader Blanks
I was talking with a few users in Discord and they suggested I bring this up here. The non-Clan leaders are pretty much the cats that lead their little rogue/loner groups, I suggest a blank for the Non-Clan leaders. Since they technically get a rank of being leader but aren't actually Clans I think it'd be a great idea to have a blank fit for them. The leaders that would more or less count for this would be like Darktail, Harley, Jingo, etc. I don't really think BloodClan would considering they were referred as a Clan in the books. Thoughts? 09:15, February 13, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there's really a reason to give them a different blank. There really isn't much difference from a Clan leader besides the nine lives, and even then Nightstar and Mothpelt were leader with one life. Stoneteller has a blank because that role is a medcat and leader hybrid. 9:43 Wed Feb 13 2019

i still think at the most it should be a somewhat minor tweak of the current ones if anything at all. another idea (that would be pc's jurisdiction) would be adding clan leader as the thing in the infobox, instead of just leader as it is now. 09:58, February 13, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think they'd need a different blank. It's sort of like making blanks for clan queens and non-clan queens, which would be pretty unnecessary.

Agreeing with Fox and Breezey here. Another blank is not necessary. Those cats are still technically seen as leaders, even if they don't have nine lives. 18:18, February 13, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed with above. They're not all that different from clan leaders in terms of role. 14:10, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

I think it's unnecessary for them to have separate blanks. In the end, they're all leaders, whether they have nine lives, or are in a Clan or not. 14:31, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

Maybe not another blank but maybe a tweak to their art to show their non-clan like Da ud said earlier. 16:13, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

I think we should tweak the current one to show some difference; there is a notable difference between Clan leaders and other leaders. It isn't quite just the nine lives, it's the rules they live by, their duties, how they act - all of which makes them so much different from cats like Jumper and Fog.

We could definitely tweak them.... but we also made a cotp blank for fewer cats than we have cited as non-clan leaders. So really I have no preference to how we go about this. 18:25, 02/15/2019

I agree there, that's why I brought this up. A blank was even made for the rank of mediator and CotP and I think non-clan leaders would count too. 18:52, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

I think we should have a non-clan leader blank, but I think it should just be slightly tweaked,  maby a new blank in a simalar position? ❈ Love is Love, forever! ❈ =^.,.^= 22:18, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

Kinda divided but since this stalled... any other comments before a vote on whether to make a tweaked version or no?

I honestly think it'd be a waste seeing as a big defining difference between non-Clan leaders and Clan leaders, from what I remember, is their faith (the whole nine lives thing) - which isn't a physical thing. A leader is a leader honestly - seeing as they do the same things. 21:33 Thu Feb 28 2019

I'm going to agree with Max. There is zero difference, and leaders are leaders, non-Clan or Clan. 00:56, March 4, 2019 (UTC)

I do feel there is a difference between Clan leaders and non-Clan leaders. For one, the nine lives. The other thing is the Clans are very rigid with their rules. They don't switch leaders like The Ancients did, and they have strict rules on who is next in line and the warrior code also demands loyalty to their leaders. Other leaders do not really have that.

Although I don't think a whole new blank is necessary. Perhaps just a tweaked version of the leader blank? Like we did with the old healer blank.Stealth f🔥re ❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:00, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

I think tweaking the blank would be good enough. Anymore comments?

16:16, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

If we're tweaking the blank, which I still don't think is necessary, I want to do it. 17:37 Sun Mar 24 2019

I don't think tweaking or adding a new blank is necessary. To be honest, I don't think the non-Clan leaders should be given a leader blank at all since they're really just rogues, but they've already been given art so I can't really speak much about that. But, like previous statements are said, non-Clan leaders are just leaders of a different group of cats, but they aren't physically different or do any different tasks. How would the blank even be tweaked to represent non-Clan cats without changing it entirely? If it's only going to be tweaked slightly, then I think that it's more work to do that for a small number of cats than to just leave the art as it is now. <span style="">19:25 Sun Mar 24

Agreed with Splook.^^ 22:26, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

Alternate Charart Section
Some characters, like Tawnypelt have so many alts that the gallery looks a little clunky and disorganized. Perhaps we should have a separate gallery for the alts? This way the chararts look more organized. It might also be helpful to have all the non-alts in one section for visual purposes. Thoughts?

I like this idea! Half the time, I look at the art for a quick glance, and I think the wrong one is what the really look like! I 100% support this. Welcome, to a world  of wonder,  and beauty!  Now follow me,  into the light!  04:50, February 20, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm all for it. Especially for cats like Brackenfur and Bluestar, too. Sometimes all those alts together can be quite an eyesore. 05:00, February 20, 2019 (UTC)

absolutely since mistakes are so prominent in this stupid series 09:17, February 20, 2019 (UTC)

Would this work?

Could also just reorder the images so the same alts are together. <span style="">11:20 Wed Feb 20 2019

I think that might end up looking messy for characters with a lot of different mistakes throughout the series, and it might get trickier to organize if that is the case.

for extreme cases like Tawnypelt and stuff, sure, but not if they only have an alt or two; just in the interest of section counts it'd be good to just do it for those that need it imo

any other comments?

Not really good at coding or anything, but would it be possible to put them into seperate tabs within the gallery? 21:13, February 28, 2019 (UTC)

hmmm tabs?

Ooh yes, I do like the look of those. 19:12, March 3, 2019 (UTC)

Yes that tabs would work great! Tawnypelt is getting so long and confusing ><<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:01, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

Any more comments?

16:17, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

Popping in here to say I agree and that Tawnypelt, Bluestar, Sol and others could use this. 22:46, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

i worry those tabs might not work for some people, as evidenced by the attempt at official art tabs

Is there any specific reports of what people are having trouble with? It might be something fixable. On another wiki I was on I had to custom make a new tab system cause of some kind of issues on different devices or something (I can't remember the specifics), and it ended up working fine after that.

Unsure if this is helpful but here is the attempt at integrating the tabs: https://warriors.fandom.com/index.php?title=Firestar%2FMain_article&diff=1351841&oldid=1351364

Unfortunately I don't have a screenshot of what I saw but basically the page wouldn't load and kept on refreshing itself. The gallery itself wouldn't show either. Maybe it has something to do with tabs being in a tab

Family Tree Alts
So, I just visited the new website's family tree, and it has updated. we made many lts and have more alts planned due to errors, and I am bringing these up because on the tree, while some have not been fixed (Eg. Dustpelt, Stagleap, aswell as one other icon that I intend to nominate after this,). A lot of the icons have been fixed. https://imgur.com/a/UQeZNXB <-- All the ones I could find that were fixed are compiled in here. What should we do? Should we keep these alts? Remove them from the pages, and charart list? Another thing, Nightstar has been fixed, however I have just found this out, while my Nightstar family tree alt is up on the approval page. What's going to happen with Nightstar's star alt that's been up for approval? That's the basis of this. <font color="#302B54" face="Segoe Script" >Squidward <font color="#483D8B" face="Segoe Script" >Plays <font color="#6A5ACD" face="Segoe Script" >All  <font color="#836FFF" face="Segoe Script" >Star. <font color="#302B54" face="Segoe Script" >I <font color="#483D8B" face="Segoe Script" >Am <font color="#6A5ACD" face="Segoe Script" >Ranko <font color="#836FFF" face="Segoe Script" >Kanzaki. 23:20, February 25, 2019 (UTC)

I'd say remove them since it's no longer a mistake (it's nice how they actually fixed it quite accurately..).

Agreed^^

Yeah, I agree we remove them. For your image, you can either withdraw it or keep going with it, I'd imagine. It just won't get put on the page, if everyone agrees. 03:06, February 26, 2019 (UTC)

^ rip pebbleshine -- 07:01, February 26, 2019 (UTC)

So is it fine to remove them from pages or at least the charart list? <font color="#302B54" face="Segoe Script" >Squidward <font color="#483D8B" face="Segoe Script" >Plays <font color="#6A5ACD" face="Segoe Script" >All  <font color="#836FFF" face="Segoe Script" >Star. <font color="#302B54" face="Segoe Script" >I <font color="#483D8B" face="Segoe Script" >Am <font color="#6A5ACD" face="Segoe Script" >Ranko <font color="#836FFF" face="Segoe Script" >Kanzaki. 17:05, February 26, 2019 (UTC)

Anyone care if we use some of these more generic ones for the minor cats page as the need arises? Like, a lot of them will get totally nuked, but some of the solids and tabbies and stuf we can reuse for super generic descriptions

Since we're removing them from their original purpose, I see no reason to not use them elsewhere if possible. It's better than having perfectly acceptable images go to waste.

Agreed. Perhaps we can have a temporary category for these images? This makes things much easier in cases, for example, I'm searching for images for the minor characters pages. I just look at the category instead of trying to track them all down then look at them. Once I've found the image a place, I just remove the category.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:03, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

Comments? 16:27, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

24 hour archiving for warriors and kits
So we have 1000+ images in total to do. In the past someone brought up that it could be possible to archive an image 24 hours from the last comment, like the tweak page. I think this could be a time efficient way to go about with these images. Thoughts?

I think the way we're doing it now is fine. Not a lot can get on before the twenty four hours is up so I honestly think we should keep it as we're doing. 13:41, March 2, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed with Mink.

13:52, March 2, 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately i have to agree with mink, the way we're going about it now is definitely fine. it gives other people chances to comment  Whiskii  ✿

I think the regular process is fine. quality is key <span style="">13:56, 03/2/2019

^^

Yeah, since the blanks are completely redone, we should definitely keep to the same process as the leaders and kittypets. If we're slacking that badly, we have former leads that I'm sure would at least help out if they're asked, no? ​​

Agreed with above. ^^ What we have works. 13:27, March 4, 2019 (UTC)

Unless the problem is a lack of lead activity (and as skye said, that can be addressed easily if it is a problem), changing the rules of approval wouldn't speed things up. The only cases it would make an image get approved faster is if the image wasn't actually at a point where a lead would CBA it. So either it wouldn't speed things up much, or it would result in lower quality images getting approved. By all means assign more leads if things go too slow, but I don't think the approval requirements should be changed.

Concurring with everything said above. 17:47, March 4, 2019 (UTC)

I’d be glad to help out if need be (dont think i was ever a sw here tho?? but i was a mentor) and i’m sure david wpuld lend a hand as well... I think we should definitely look at what the project has to say about temporary sws and if we really need them for this process. Warrior/kit images will be starting around the end of this month if im recalling correctly so we should look at getting input sooner rather than later if we’re going to go ahead with additional/temporary leads <span style="">18:07, 03/4/2019

I think that's a great idea, ferk. Temporary senior warriors would help take off the stress of the current leads and also provide experience for those who have never been a lead before. I believe there is a lot of people here that would be willing and active enough to fulfill that road.

00:30, March 6, 2019 (UTC)

Any other comments?

Do they need to be be temporary? Why not just promote people that should be leads? We'll be doing warriors and kits for a long time and it's not like leads are paid or anything. <span style="">14:04 Sun Mar 17 2019

i agree that if people are promoted as leads that they should stay as leads. its like a job but minus the pay, for example if youre parttime and you geet promoted to fulltime, thats not temporary. thats until you either leave, move higher in the company, or decide to move on <span style="">14:08, 3/17/2019

Agreed with Winter^^ Many are joining the project, so a few more leads wouldn't hurt. 22:56, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

So here's my question to the non-lead members of the project: how many leads do you think we need? Regardless of who we have now, does anyone have a number they could pitch so I know what we're looking at here? This is in no way a stab at our current lead team, but I'd like to know what the rest of the project thinks in terms of our lead crew right now. ​

is it just me or... i dont feel like we need anymore leads??? i feel like the lead team did things perfectly adequately during the KP/leader rush. i dont see a reason why we NEED more leads. 00:22, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Agreeing with Burnt. The leads seem to be handling things just fine, and I thought they did a really good job keeping up with the KP/leader redos. Maybe nominate one more person, if there's someone that's really deserving, and leave it at that. 00:54, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Didn't we recently lose like 2 leads though? Plus the warrior rush is gonna be crazier than the others since there's so many more images. I'd say like maybe 2-3 more leads might be a good idea? Could always play it by ear and just see how things go when the warriors start and then decide how many we need based on the speed we're going/how stressed the current leads get. That's an option too.

I honestly feel like we have enough leads, even with some leaving, we've still kept it up with image approving just fine. But if there ever needs to be another added, as Paleh and others have said we can always nominate one. 02:00, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

I personally dont think we should nominate leads just because of the rush. Maybe have some users who have been leads in the past lend a hand if we end up needing the extra nudge in CBAing but otherwise I feel it would be unfair to users who might not have been considered for leads if it werent for us having so many images. Leads should be nominated because of their individual quailities and contributions to the project over time, not just because we are facing a scary amount of images. If the leads feel they need help, by all means nom some users but we shouldnt do it based on image redo number alone. Sorry if this is incoherent i’m half asleep and on break at work <span style="">12:12, 03/26/2019

Minor Characters Images
I'm loving all these chararts we are adding for the minor characters pages, but I'm noticing a problem regarding characters we cannot give a blank to. If you check Omen of the Stars page, I've been filling in The Fourth Apprentice and I'm not even done yet, and there are so many characters we cannot give a blank to.

So I'm wondering if we can find alternatives to these characters, instead of cluttering the pages with Noimage.png. For example, perhaps with Clan cats we can give them their Clan's symbol?

Spooky also mentioned a new blank (yay more!) where it's a general adult cat blank for cats we have no idea of their rank, but still have a description. The Super editions page is a great example. There is so many on there we have no idea their rank (or even Clan) and so we cannot give them a blank, despite having a description.

What do you think?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  22:14, March 10, 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how I think about a generic blank...I think it's not too far off to just give them a blank closest to what they might be. Not a rank, that's PC, but saying a Clan cat gets a warrior blank if unknown, Tribe gets a cave-guard, etc. would work. <span style="">10:54 Mon Mar 11 2019

Could we just use the unknown residence blank when one gets approved? But in my opinion, as Breezey said just using a warrior blank, or cave-guard would work better. 18:15, March 11, 2019 (UTC

could a new ¨unknown rank¨ blank workWillowstep21 (talk) 14:02, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

I mean personally I don't think these characters have to get images, but if it's agreed that they should, I think whiskey's idea sounded good. I guess in case we would just vote on which blank would be considered "standard" in certain cases?

I don't think we should use pre-existing blanks for characters that don't have a cited rank. By using the warrior blank, it appears as if we're assuming that some Clan cat is a warrior when the character could just as well be an apprentice, queen, or elder for all the information that's in the book. Making one of these blanks "standard" distorts the actual meaning of the blank and would likely be misleading for readers who don't know all the reasoning behind the choice. I don't think it's necessary to give these characters images anyway because of how minor they are, but if we did I'd favor using an "unknown" blank instead. 19:50, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

Mean to get to this sooner, but I agree with what's said above ^. I personally don't think it's necessary to give the unknown rank minor characters images, and we already have much to do regardless. 19:56, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

Hmm I'd imo an "unknown" blank/adult cat blank could be used; ofc after all of this and probably in like 2020 at this point but rip

Yeah I don't think assuming a rank will work it'll just create confusion.<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:18, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, let's not assume ranks. That's a problem we've had before... If we entertain the topic, it really should be after everything else is done... which that's going to take a while as it is.

If we plan on giving these characters images, they should be given their own blank rather than assuming ranks. Right now, I think we have enough on our plates, but perhaps we can bring it up again in the future when we're less swamped. 16:25, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I agree we can't do a new blank right now. What about using clan images? There are so many cats we have no description of so cannot give a blank, would giving them their Clan's image be a good substitute?<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  23:49, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Alt Image Cites
So lately I've noticed a lot of alt images going uncited because it's usually clear what they're for (mostly for the official art or family tree alts), so the cites don't get prioritized and end up either slipping through the cracks or taking a really long time to actually get on the page. Since PCA has always had a policy of requiring cites for images, I feel like these shouldn't be any different. In the past, cites were required before the image could even be reserved, but considering the family tree and official art alts are voted on beforehand, maybe it should just be the alt's artist that's ultimately responsible for adding the cite if it's not already there by the time they post the image.

And while we're on the topic of alts, I actually had a suggestion. So despite the incorrect description being listed in the trivia section, for a lot of character it's not always clear which alt is for which mistake/cite, especially for characters with a lot of alts like bluestar, tawnypelt, firestar, and so on. I feel like a nice solution to this would be to add the description of the mistake along with the cite to the image's description. You can see an example of this in my personal image's description. If the alt had more than one cite, as is the case for some common mistakes like brackenfur, all the relevant cites would be added, the same way they are in the trivia section. This should make it a lot easier to tell what the alts are for, not only for the readers of the wiki but also for us, especially when trying to figure out if an alt is still required/valid, and whether it's in the same set as another alt. Thoughts?

I agree with this. I've removed an alt once because it had no cite for it and it almost became an argument until I was told what it was for. Please add a cite before reserving/posting an image!<font color="#0F52BA" face="Segoe">Stealth <font color="#FF0000" face="Segoe">f🔥re <font color="#0067A5" face="Teen">❤Warriors Forever!❤  21:20, March 12, 2019 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that, because even I lose track of what's what anymore. There are too many alts on the wiki anymore;;; ​​

Agreed^ Any other comments? 16:46, April 1, 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps any comments on the specific wording that should be used in the image descriptions? That would be helpful.

If I get what you're talking about.. Maybe it should say "Brackenfur was mistakenly called [pelt color] in [book name]'. I've seen a similar style to this on the Stacyplays wiki, where if there is a character mistake they list the episode the mistake was in. 16:26, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

Date for redoing the warriors/kits
^ List of conflicts so far, from the discussions:

Saturdays - Jayce

Last week of March - Silver

Any weekday is questionable as a lot of us have school

Thoughts?

I mean if we're listing conflicts users have, my computer is in for repair for the next two weeks at least, so I'm not able to do any images.

My IB exams start from May 9-23, so I'd prefer if we didn't start the warriors/kits then.

I don't really have a conflict per se, but I'm going to be working 50+ hours in a few weeks starting in April, so I won't have much time <span style="">11:09, 3/19/2019

i wont be able to do charart on the weekendsWillowstep12 (talk) 13:20, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, there are so many warriors and kits I don't think conflicts will do any harm. People might not get their no. 1 choice, but there are plenty to do and plenty of OA images.

I think we nominate and promote three or four more leads and after the noms close out get started. <span style="">14:08 Thu Mar 21 2019

Unpopular opinion incoming.. I don't think we can realistically account for everyone in terms of dates. Looking at this, week days are technically unavailable, and also weekends, the entirety of May, and April. The redo date will extend far beyond the initial date anyway and will open many opportunities for those who didn't get their first choice. And, as Breezey said, we have many images to do so conflicts aren't that huge. Personally I think April/May are good months to start these, or as per Breezey, nominate and promote more people and begin these.

I second all of this, and actually have been mulling about it for a while. We can try our best, but we can’t possibly account for everyone and we need to pick a date and start the warriors/kits. I think sometime in April would be great. 17:37, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

I am probably going to get shot for this suggestion... but perhaps wait until after everyone is done with their school things..so end of May/June? We have Lost Stars and Path of a Warrior to also work on, along with the elder blanks. That's more than enough for now, and it gives people a chance to rest from being so burnt out from the kittypets and leaders. I'm afraid that if we push this too early, it's going to result in some issues with people just being so tired.

Hm, I actually think that’s a good idea. We should finish the elders, and the two new books, take a two week break, and then start warriors/kits. by that time i would think it would be the end of may, which sounds fine to me.

20:18, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Jayce and Ari. We also have the minor characters to do though? Unless we’re tossing those in with redos? <span style="">20:46, 03/21/2019

i personally support that we start doing the warriors in may/june– ap exams in may ew. also, are we doing the elders first? 23:16, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

If anything it'd be June since that's when summer break begins. If we're doing the elders early though.. wouldn't that defeat the purpose of pushing back all the warriors/kits?

i personally think we should redo the blanks as they were approved but thats just my onion <span style="">23:43, 3/21/2019

I'm all for the v late May/June; school is an issue tbh and I'm kinda oddly drained still from the massive rush of KPs/leaders

I agree with late May/June, because school has taken over my life, and I'm not ready to dive into the massive pit that is the warriors/kits so soon. Plus breaks and weekends don't really work until then.

I mean June would be one of the worst months for me if anything....that’s our last month of school so it’ll be packed and busy with finals. May would be better. I’d prefer early May or early July, but June overall is busy for me. 03:16, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

May is probably the worst month for most of us still in school, but then again, we can't account for everyone. Perhaps it needs to come down to a vote on the month.. then possibly date. Also, what is happening with the elders? Do we do those immediately or after a batch of warriors/kits?

dont see why we cant just do the lost stars lot first including the elders since thats what people will want to see then idk some other whatever date for the rest 08:12, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

i like snowdapple's ideaWillowstep12 (talk) 13:56, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

I have no preference on the month as long as one is picked lol. I do agree with Ferk and David that we should do the lost stars bunch and minor characters when the book comes out, and hold off the rest for the summer. 15:46, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

(unpopular opinion warning) im fine with starting with the new lost star characters in april then once everyone done with that wave then do the rest in sections by arcs (ex. may- tpb june-tnp july-pot) Willowstep12 (talk) 16:10, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Hm, I say right now we should finish up the rest of the mc that are available. Then we should take a 1 week break or so. Depending on what time that happens we can start working on the ls lot and maybe even elders. Then we can start the warriors and kits in late may or early june?

12:04, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

I support doing the elders along with the Lost Stars characters

honestly i dont see a problem with starting with the elders once the vote is over– i dont rly see a point in pushing it back imo, it just piles the things we need to do on top of each other 14:06, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

have no preference for when we should begin kits and warriors, so long as we have a little break. If the beginning of summer works for most, thats cool. I have no problem with starting elders, anytime works for me. 16:17, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

yeah summer for the two huge ones please, and then LS/elders whenever tbh

I'm free anyday for these. And sure, I'm fine starting whenever. 22:45, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

just got a big schedule form. having tests on may and june, as im preparing for the most important examination i'd take in my life. we should just do em in april along with lost stars. -- 08:43, 3/27/2019

Won't really matter when for me, I have classes in the summer anyways lol, so my activity wont really be improving any time soon. <span style="">15:05 Wed Mar 27

I support doing the kits and warriors in the summer. 17:23, March 30, 2019 (UTC)

June 1?

June 1st sounds good! And I support warriors/kits in the summer. (It's the perfect time to improve my art skills too.) 23:08, April 5, 2019 (UTC)

June 1 is good. I have a big holiday party that monthb -- 14:02, 4/07/2019

Exceptions to the 24 hr archiving rule
Recently we implemented a rule that senior warriors must wait for 24 hrs since the last vote before archiving a tweak nom. This does allow people to get their input in and whatnot, but for certain votes it's somewhat a waste of time? For example if an OA wants to redo their image, the nomination needlessly sits there for a day. Also, when a cite is removed/added etc., it also seems unnecessary to wait for 24 hrs before the nomination is archived. I was thinking we could allow exceptions to this rule.. Thoughts?

I wouldn't mind those two things as exceptions... no reason for an artist to get told "no" if they want to redo their own image in the first place, and if a cite is removed, no need to let it sit... can't exactly say "no" to that either. <span style="">15:36, 03/24/2019

Agreed^ i think an expectation for noms such as these can be made rather than letting them sit. 16:12, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed with above! 16:13, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah agreeing with above

thats fine. its more for ones that have the chance to be contested 19:28, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

Definitely fine with me, especially with OA claims. Unless it's a major issue, such as a Bramble/Tiger/Hawk thing where multiple people have claims... there is zero reason to wait another day in addition to the time waited to get the votes when OAs always have first dibs and the final say when it comes to redoing their images. If it cannot be objected to (such as OA claims, citations, ect) then waiting even longer just wastes time. ​​

Everyone has my support for this tweak nom. rule. 22:43, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

I mean don't get me wrong, I do feel like the 24 hours is unnecessary for these cases but... it kind of also begs the question as to why they have to be nominated at all? If there's no reason to vote "no" on them, there's not much reason to have a nomination, but if there is a reason to vote "no" (which there's not really), they should have the 24 hours just like the other nominations. I don't know, just something worth thinking about I guess.

I can think of one or maybe two times when an OA wanted to redo their image and it was shot down...mostly for pattern redos and them not owning all of the set w/o contacting the other OAs prior. I think it's more of a courteous thing, and plus redoing any image I would think would require the approval of the community first. 03:21, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Wait is the exception to the 24 hour rule including cases where the OA of the pattern is nominating some images that aren't theirs? I don't think the exception should apply to that, those should just be considered normal nominations. Also, the image still gets community approval through the tweak page, the artist just doesn't need to get permission to post there if there was no nomination. Not that I'm necessarily advocating for removing the nominations for this, I don't really care one way or another. I suppose in cases where descriptions change, there's still a matter of deciding whether it'll be tweaked or redone, so I guess the nomination does serve a purpose in that case...

no i think the exception only applies to people who are nominating redos on their image and their image only. 09:31, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Minor Character Kits/Warriors/Elders
So I guess I haven't seen a straight answer to this; while we are waiting for the mass redo to start, I think it should be ok for us to do some minor characters?

We've just got to keep in mind that we get one image when we do these, not two, as I know with the recent KP/L rush some seemed to misunderstand that even though the blanks were redone, the minor char images are original art and not redos themselves... We've got plenty of those to do, and instead of waiting to throw them in with the 1000+ images we have to redo. This also keeps the project rolling and helps our newer users improve while we wait for redos. Thoughts on this? Sorry if it's brought up already but I can't seem to find a trail for it <span style="">15:42, 03/24/2019

Personally, I think it would be all right to start these. Better than letting them sit any more. Maybe we can even get them all finished by the time we begin the redos. 16:10, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

I would be fine with this.

16:11, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I see no qualms about doing them now. 16:14, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

^ 16:35, March 24, 2019 (UTC)

I support doing these now

Sure^^

March 27th?

Sure! 22:42, March 25, 2019 (UTC)

The 27 sounds good to me^ 22:47, March 25, 2019 (UTC) would thies cats be on the "availaible charart" page or somewhere else?Willowstep12 (talk) 13:15, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

Most likely, as the KP's and Leaders had a separate tab there. 23:49, March 26, 2019 (UTC)

So just to clarify, does this include the other new kits/warriors that aren't minor characters, like the official image and family tree alts? Or are those being done in a separate batch? There's only about a dozen of them listed on the available image page rn so in my opinion they should just go ahead and be done, but it's definitely worth discussing and making a clear decision on it regardless of what we end up doing.

I think the now canon Missing Kits (if that's what you're talking about) will be featured. There really aren't many of them.. 22:11, March 29, 2019 (UTC)

Tortoiseshell color ruling
Alright, so as per this I believe we should do the same as we did for the tabbies and nuke this "tortoiseshell cats have to be black and ginger" rule. It's really limiting all of our artwork possiblities, and really in general, just making most of the tortoiseshells that we have art for look the same. I'm not saying any of the art is bad, no, so don't take me wrong on it. It's just that I feel any tortoiseshell should be any color you want it to be.

And no, I'm not talking about nuking the no white rule (sorry jayce :P )

TL;DR, nuke the tortoiseshell has to be ginger and black rule, and let people make dilute, torbie, chocolates, or blue torts if they want to. <span style="">11:48, 3/30/2019

Isn't there already freedom to do so? There are many smoke torties and chocolate torties around I believe.

My point is that a lot of people think there is a rule, so we should make it official that people can have the freedom they want to do the color torts they please. Paleh was saying to add ginger onto that image, and I disagreed, thus starting this. <span style="">11:56, 3/30/2019

Tortoiseshell colored cats are by definition a form of black and a form of red. That can be black and red, brown and red, blue and cream, lilac and cream, and any amount of white or pointed. Coloring a tortie just a black base or just a black base is like coloring a blue tabby red. I'm not opposed to not caring if there is more than one shade of black or red in an image, but there should at least be those two present. <span style="">14:17 Sat Mar 30 2019

brown is a form of red, so finch's charart is valid and doesn't need any other form of ginger or cream. <span style="">14:44, 3/30/2019

theres never been a hard rule on it having to be ginger ans black unless said in the text? i have several smoke, a former chocolate and a couple dilute torties, theyre not banned. black and ginger just tends to be the ones people think of first i guess. 15:05, March 30, 2019 (UTC)

I think unless it's said in the text, the coloring of a tortoiseshell should be up to the artist....given we just nerfed the stripe rule due to "realism", I don't see why we should continue to limit people. Let people be creative, it ain't going to kill anyone. And even then, not everyone is able to make hyper-realistic patterns and it's hardly fair to force that on people.

There was never any rule on tortoiseshell coloring. I specifically said in my comment that pca's rules on it are very unspecific, i.e. it doesn't actually say anywhere what's officially considered a tortie or have any specifications about what colors are allowed. Adding ginger or cream or something was just a suggestion, since real life torties don't come in gray and black, it was never meant to imply there was any rule about it. And given PCA's general stance on realism atm, I don't think there should be a rule. Though it might be good to officially clarify what pca does and does not consider a tortie (and maybe also tabbies for that matter, since there's been plenty of "that doesn't look like a tabby/is that considered a tabby/ect." situations), just to avoid any confusion in the future.

Like I said, brown is darker form of cream, which is also a filtered form of ginger. I think Finch's image looks chocolate to me. It doesn't look gray imo <span style="">16:13, 3/30/2019

In cats, brown/chocolate is a shade of black. <span style="">16:15 Sat Mar 30 2019

Charter sites
Is their any site I can use that does not require download bc i can't use gimp or pain.net :(Willowstep12 (talk) 18:59, March 30, 2019 (UTC)

Pixlr.com, FireAlpaca, SAI paint tool, ArtStudio, etc. The best one is Photoshop but it's real expensive. 19:21, March 30, 2019 (UTC)

Willow is only talking about sites, Potato. Photoshop, SAI and Art Studio require download and iirc so does firealpaca <span style="">04:08, 3/31/2019

Bluestar pale gray vs pale alts
So it was decided by PC that pale gray is considered distinct from blue-gray, and also that the "pale" (not "pale gray") cites for bluestar are considered mistakes since she's meant to be the same shade as mistystar. But since that's two separate reasons for considering each of those two descriptions mistakes, it's not really clear how it'll work with the alts. Is there gonna be an alt set for all "pale gray" descriptions, with no blue tinting, but then an additional pale blue-gray set for when she's only called "pale"? Since "pale" would usually be added on the the base coloring (blue gray) in cases like this for other characters.

It seems a bit excessive to have two alt sets for such similar descriptions, but I'm not really sure what would be a better solution. Making them all pale blue-gray would contradict the decision PC made to consider pale gray different from blue-gray, but making them all pale gray with no blue would be an assumption that the authors didn't intend "pale" to mean "pale blue-gray" in those cases.

Any ideas?

Naming Minor Character Images
Quick question, are we supposed to be naming our images based on where said book is on the minor character page or when the book came out chronologically? I've been naming based on the books' chronological order and a couple of my images have ended up next to a different minor character then I'd intended for. In the long run, it's not a big deal to me, but I am looking for input. 01:27, April 2, 2019 (UTC)

They were meant to be named based on said book, like BP for Bluestar's Prophecy instead of SE-1 or whatever. Though in the end the names don't really matter as there's no template that needs to be followed. They mainly serve as an indication of where the minor character is.

Brokenstar's eyes
They are cited to be orange, but his chararts show them as yellow/amber. Should these be tweaked?

Yes! 16:23, April 6, 2019 (UTC)

No, they're orange enough <span style="">12:27, 4/07/2019

nah it's alright. -- 14:01, 4/07/2019

Crystalshine75 - Join Request
Hiiii! Can I join this Project? <span style="background:-webkit-linear-gradient(midnightblue,mediumpurple);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;font-family:papyrus,serif">Crystie  <span style="background:-webkit-linear-gradient(right,hotpink,honeydew,lightblue,midnightblue,violet);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;font-family:Bright Young Things,serif">Can't help loving me  11:42, April 7, 2019 (UTC)

I will add you in as a kit. Please read the guidelines before participating, and welcome to the project! 12:22, April 7, 2019 (UTC)

I read it, and thank you! <3 :D <span style="background:-webkit-linear-gradient(midnightblue,mediumpurple);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;font-family:papyrus,serif">Crystie  <span style="background:-webkit-linear-gradient(right,hotpink,honeydew,lightblue,midnightblue,violet);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;font-family:Bright Young Things,serif">Can't help loving me  14:01, April 7, 2019 (UTC)

Moonyy ~ Join Request
Hi! Could I please join the project?

Welcome! I'll add you in as a kit. Make sure to read the guidelines before participating! ^^ 13:38, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Juniperbriar - Join Request
I've read through the guidelines, and I've finally decided to ask to join. Juniperbriar (talk) 13:36, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Welcome! I'll add you in as a kit. ^^ 13:39, April 9, 2019 (UTC)

Feathertail UG Alt
I looked through the charart list, and noticed Feathertail's warrior alt for Ultimate Guide was still listed. I actually did this image in December, File:Feathertail.warrior.alt2.png. Does this need renamed to alt3 or was this an oversight? I just don't want my image to be replaced, especially since it was the first in that set. <span style="">22:06 Tue Apr 9

Tybaxel - Join Request
Hi!! I was wondering if I could join in on making some pixel cats OwO Tybaxel (talk) 00:47, April 10, 2019 (UTC)Tybaxel

I'll add you in as a kit. don't forget the guidelines and whatever else I might've forgot that you can find on the main page 23:14, April 10, 2019 (UTC)