Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

Apprentice Tutorials Makeover
So as most of you should know, since Snowed of Lightning mentioned it above, that I will help out with the apprentice tutorials' update. I want to start ASAP, and I want to know from you guys which ones need updating. We aren't claiming which oines to do yet, but Snowed of Lightning says she wants to redo the black cat tutorial.

Which tutorials do you think need updating? 0:41 Wed May 7

Mottled and flecked. 07:03, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind a tweak to the tortoiseshell and dual-colored ones to make them a little more natural, so to say. (the ones Iceheart and Loonie did) The tortie one only shows pale torties, I think, and the dual colored one should have a bit more variety. I will say this, though. No one needs to touch Bloo's marbled tabby one- it's perfect in every way, shape, and form. 8DD

Yes Snowed of Lightning. That one is fine too. I agree with both of you. 20:17 Wed May 7

The eye and shading charts need updating. And possibly the adding stripes tweak tutorial... Idk. 20:55, 05/7/2014

We should add more diversity in tutorials, like having some be using queen blanks, deputy blanks, leader blanks, kit blanks, etc. Notquiterocketwildbokan (talk) 21:17, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Oooh, yes, that's a fantastic idea. I find it awkward to try and tabby on a blank that isn't shown in a tutorial because that's how I learned the way the tabby stripes should go. I'm sure others feel the same, so the project and all the users would benefit from the use of more than just the warrior blank (which is the most commonly used blank) for the tutorials. 22:50, 05/7/2014

Yes, fabulous. I was thinking that the shading placement image needs updating as well, and the color chart too; it could have a few more colors (if there are any). 2:02 Fri May 9

See, that's the thing with the color chart. I don't think it's a good idea to take that for perfect, since the colors are only a basic example of what you could use. It's the same with the ear pink. It should really only be used as a guide for what color area you should start with if you're new...but as this project has shown, there are a lot of different colors and shades that you could use. I'd be all for updating the shading placement to show different styles too. ^^ If someone has the time I'd say two styles for each blank but that would be madness and I don't expect anyone to sit around and do that. \

I've got time. I might even have time for the frigging eyes DX I already started 3 days ago I'm not even half way done cause I don't have the patience. 23:20 Fri May 9

I think that under each section, say, dual-coloured, we should have multiple tutorials by different users. I don't think that unless they are misleading, tutorials shouldn't be replaced but kept in respect to the artists. I like Icehearts, and I don't want to see them replaced. With different tutorials under each section, then users can select from a variety of diverse styles and choose which one fits them best instead of just looking at one tutorial.

White and black (individual white cats and black cats I mean) is also misleading. They imply that you're not allowed to use pure white or a really really dark gray, when in fact that is quite the opposite. While it's possible (and I've done it for fun), I believe having tutorials that show using pure white and darker gray should be an option- someone once told me that using pure white was forbidden, and that's completely and totally misleading. =P

I agree with you all. So, now, shall we start with the tutorial's make-over? I can start with the 'tabbers' coding on the page. Then, I can place the tutorials according to their level of difficulty (Charart basics, like shading styles, eye placement, etc, then to patterns, like tabby and mottled/flecked, etc, and then tweaking, etc.). Sound like a plan? 16:50 Mon May 19

It's more than okay with me, if you want to start with some of the basics, Hawk. What say you, PCA? Should we get started on this?

Sounds good to me. Might as well get this all done sooner so we can give newer users a more updated look at how us dorks over at PCA art. love you all you awesome nerds  20:33, 05/20/2014

Okay, the tutorials have been put into tabbers. What do y'all think? I guess now we can start updating/making tutorials. So I was thinking to add:
 * Texture Tutorial
 * Smudged Shading Style Tutorial
 * Torbie Tutorial

I know that Snowed of Lightning wants to redo/update the black cat tutorial, and I'd like to make a texture tutorial as well as update the eye placement and shading placement. I can also take care of the smudge-shading tutorial. So pretty much I just want to hog everything for myself mwahahaha No jk jk jk Is everyone okay with this? 21:29 Tue May 20

I defiantly agree with adding texture and torbies; sounds great to me! 13:00, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to see tutorials for how to use Pixlr, Gimp, paint.NET, and everything else that is usually used. I think it'd be helpful. 13:04, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

Oooh, having ones per program, or at least ones teaching the basics, would be something I'd be okay with. Although I can't help, since I use Photoshop, it's still a really good thing to consider. I feel bad when I can't help people who come and ask me, since I'm literally so inexperienced with those, especially Paint.NET and Pixlr.

I totally agree with Snowed of Lightning about that. Now; shall we get started? 11:50 Mon Jun 2

I've got no complaints about getting this rolling. Let's get it started. Is each person gonna take a different one, or are we just letting everyone do their own versions? 'cause each person has different methods and I think just letting everyone share their ideas would be the easiest and fairest way to go about it. I just want to do a bi-colored and the regular black, and maybe something on white if I have the energy, and you guys can do the rest.

I think we should let all warrior and aboves do their own versions. As said, it's fair and everyone has their own methods and it's a good way to share ideas. owo

Good. Okay, let's get started. I would like to claim the torbie and texture tutorials. I'll start right away, the upload it onto the apprentice tutorials. If that's okay, anyways...1:21 Sat Jun 7

I'll do my style of tabbies and smudged shading, if you guys want.Shinxy Blitz  and  Melody  22:34, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Can I do one on tinted shading on white cats? 20:01 Sun Jul 27

Looking over the tutorials, it's very overwhelming. Also, would the finished product on many of the tutorials posted by past users probably be accepted with the recent standards? Probably not, actually. By no means do I imply to delete the older tutorials, but perhaps archive them or organize it better. 16:33, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

Not delete, but simply create more of a variety. Archiving also sounds like a good idea. 18:45 Wed Jul 30

I like the idea or archiving them. 7:02 PM, Wed Jul 30, 2014

If we archive them (I support that idea BTW), can I make updated versions of a few? Off of the top of my head, dual-colored cats and calicoes.Shinxy Blitz  and  Melody  09:57, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what we mean. We create more tutorials from different users to have variety. Not everyone has the same opinion, thus if we archive the old ones, we can show what users now would be interested in doing, like texture. Also, art skills have changed dramatically over the years, and it would be better to create tutorials based on what PCA members today want to see. <span style="">2:03 Wed Aug 6

Can someone make a tutorial of how to put layers under the pixel art in Pixlr? I'd appreciate it, User:Tigerbird Tigerbird-The-Great 18:22, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't really require a tutorial... just google it... <span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:4px ridge; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: #000000;">Shinx Blitz  and  Melody  18:30, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

I can't find it on Google User:Tigerbird Tigerbird-The-Great 18:22, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Could i make a version on how i do tortie's?--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 00:50, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

I believe it was stated somewhere above that anybody can make some, Breeze! ^_^ <span style="color:Blue;font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;background:Red;border:4px ridge; -moz-border-raiuds: 1em; color: #000000;">Shinx Blitz  and  Melody  09:19, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

Can there be a torbie and texture tutorial? Tigerbird-The-Great 18:36, August 16, 2014 (UTC)

Tigerbird: Im actually planning on making a tabby and texture tutorial. :) Idk about Torbie's, though.--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 20:13, August 16, 2014 (UTC)

Why are we already claiming and planning tutorials to do before a proper conclusion is even reached and a layout is even created? Let's not jump the gun, and focus on the planning of layout if the idea is to even progress, first. ;}

Stone, there is nothing wrong with planning our own tutorials right now. Other users have already planned, made, and posted it to the Apprentice Tutorial's page. It wont hurt to have the tutorials there for the time being, until a proper layout is made. The point is to have a variety of tutorials, showing different methods that us users use when we do chararts. No one is "claiming" a tutorial, because its already been stated that anyone can make one. (So sorry if this came out as rude, im honestly not intending to be. .A.)--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 20:43, August 16, 2014 (UTC)

For the earpink chart, I think we should do a complete overhaul of that, maybe add a few different shades for ginger, brown, and tawny, and figuring out those ear colors. mainly ginger, the regular ginger looks so unnatural to me, I have a ginger cat and I know ginger cats and all of their noses are either bright pink, orange-pink, or pale pink. <span style="">11:38 PM, Tue Aug 19, 2014

Okay, I think we need to plan on a layout for right now. For starters, PCA expectations are much higher than they used to be. People want to learn texture, which isn't mandatory, they want to get crazy with realism, and Warriors isn't realistic to begin with. I am suggesting the tabbers because I'd like to keep the basics with the basics, and as the users get more familiar with image making, they'll understand how to do it on their own, and they can get further into tweaking and harder patterns and such. Right now, I say we should be focusing on archiving the old tutorials and replacing them with ones that PCA today would be interested in, because most users want their art to be pretty. In another discussion, though I hate to bring it here, says that users complain of not having enough work to do between books. If you're bored, help with the PCA tutorials! =3 <span style="">15:30 Wed Aug 27

For archiving the old tutorials, are we just going to have another tab labelled "Old tutorials" or something? 09:52, September 28, 2014 (UTC)

That would be a good idea. <span style="">0:31 Tue Oct 14

I think this would be a great idea seeing I'm not the best at texturing (I need to learn xD) and would like to help add to the new tutorials :3 Plus keeping the old ones is also a good idea because I'd like to look back at them just incase the new ones leave anything out. Also, someone adding a Photoshop tutorial would be very helpful for me ^^ 20:00, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I don't really think people are realizing is that texture isn't even mandatory. <span style="">22:58 Fri Nov 7

"Artist's choice"/"It's fine"/"If someone else agrees"
Three of the most common things in PCA, and three of the things that annoy me the most. What started as a way to express your distaste in a minor critique has now become so commonplace, that it's used on literally every image. Seriously, it's become on par with laziness and stubbornness and the fact that everyone thinks their images are perfect and require no changing. If you're not going to do the critiques asked if you, then why bother posting your image on the approval page? These are excuses for not wanting to take a valid comment into consideration when you're making an image, and it needs to stop.

I am tired of seeing "Artist's choice"/"It's fine"/"If someone else agrees" on every damn image on the Approval Page (my own included and I only do the it's fine if it has to do with like ear pink or if someone tells me to blur shading when I've smudged/vise-versa). Knock it off, seriously. It's becoming too commonplace and there is absolutely no reason for it to be seen on literally almost every damn image. If someone tells you to do something (that isn't totally major, like changing your tabby stripes, fur length without a cite, using another ear pink style, eyes, ect), then just do it. This nonsense where everyone thinks their images are perfect needs to stop, and stop now. No one's images are perfect upon first posting them on the approval page, because that's why we post them there.

PCA has forgotten the meaning of the approval page, and this really needs to be eliminated. The simplest of comments are being ignored, rejected, ect. It shouldn't take two or three members to back a legit comment up because you don't want to do it. Sorry, but this isn't the place for just posting it on the approval page and then expecting instant approval. There's a process, and that process involves critique and comments.

tdlr; knock the damn artist's choice/it's fine/whatever on every damn image off- it's fricken annoying, stupid, and frustrating.

The general guideline has always been "change it unless you can provide a legitimate reason as to why it should stay other than 'I've done it before.'" If the change doesn't work out someone else is sure to come along and say so and you change it back but otherwise follow what other users say. <span style="">14:43 Wed Sep 10 2014

remember language, Skye, PG on the wiki I agree, but just sayin that I think if someone else agrees is fine because it isn't ruling anything out, it's saying that you think it's fine and you'd like a second opinipn. 21:13, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Damn is an acceptable PG word, Duck. Also, I suppose it's fine in moderation, but I'm seeing it done way too many times for me to be comfortable continuing to allow it. Unless a legit reason is given, I don't think we should let it go.

It's a borderline work, but I agree with that, it has been used tons lately and it should be used a bit less, but it should not be ruled out. 21:36, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Duck. <span style="">9:40 PM, Wed Sep 10, 2014

While i agree on the "Artist's Choice" thing to an extent, and the "Its fine." excuse, i completely disagree about asking for another opinion. The OA isnt outright declining your critique or ignoring it, they are simply asking for more opinions on that issue. Skye, Whenever anyone says something like one of the following above, it does not automatically mean someone thinks their images are "perfect". If they truly believe its fine, then let it be. I can bet alot of us in PCA have used one of these excuses before, especially asking for more opinions. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with asking for opinions before reuploading.-- 00:48, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Breeze, it's when it's done all the time on every image. That is my issue. Asking an opinion is perfectly fine, but it becomes redundant and annoying when it's done to the excess that it has been as of late. And I know some have done it because they don't want to change anything with their image. I did it with Turtle Tail's set since I had a specific pattern and did not want to change it.

Yes, but i dont agree with completely not allowing the use of asking for more opinions before reuploading. If the artist thinks its fine, then let them think that. But when another person comes along and agrees, it basically pushes them to reupload. I do think the "artist's choice" and "its fine" excuses are annoying, but i think asking for another opinion is completely fine. I understand your points, but i still disagree about simply asking for more opinions.-- 01:18, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah but it shouldn't come to a vote every time an image is critiqued, which is exactly what you're saying should happen. That is both time consuming and completely stupid to be honest. The artist posts it and the image is critiqued. If you can provide a reason other than "I think it's fine" or "I've done it before" then do so but if you don't change it simply because you don't want to then you're in the wrong place and I'd suggest you go fill out lineart on dA, because that is exactly what goes on. Everybody has done it (I've done it) and it needs to stop. Just because you think its fine doesn't mean it is. Other people can often see things differently in a picture that you missed because you're blinded by seeing the image for such a long time it all looks the same. Hence why if you watch people do speedpaints and the like you see them reverse the image all the time - it creates a fresh new view. If someone sees something wrong with a picture its generally because there's something wrong with it and it needs to be fixed. People get blind to the flaws in their images and that's why we have critiquing on the approval page. Follow it. <span style="">2:55 Thu Sep 11 2014

Since I've said this before, it is honestly because I thought at the time it was fine. But in my opinion, there is always room for improvement in an image, no matter who the artist is, and if the image needs to be fixed, then fix it. Everyone's opinions and styles are different, and there isn't much we can do to change that. Honestly, and by no means to I want to sound rude/snippy, I think this project needs to coordinate more in a team effort and accept other peoples' opinions. We are all unique, just like our art. I see a lot of the "it's fine" or the "I don't want to change it" when it comes to shading. For example, there can be dark shading, which is a preference (and it suits most patterns), but there is also too dark for the pelt color. People give critique to help improve the image, and if the artist doesn't understand that something on their image needs to be changed, then maybe the image making process isn't for them, especially if there is more than one comment about a certain topic. <span style="">21:17 Mon Sep 15

What about on defining shading? What are the rules on that? Forgive me for being confused, but... <span style="">9:18 PM, Mon Sep 15, 2014

I don't see a problem on asking for clarification with confusing critiques (like being told to blur and define shading at the same time) or offering counter-arguments against critique that you think maybe isn't warranted (like being told to lighten the ear pink if it's the same color as a fellow image for that cat, or if it's already neon-pink,) but I see the problem with refusing to accept any criticism at all. I do think that could be addressed more. Jayie Unwritten words~ 21:24, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

I just think it's fine the way it is as long as the artist genuinely believes that the image is fine, and that they're not being lazy or stubborn. 20:45, September 16, 2014 (UTC)

As Sorrel stated, if the artist actually believes it's fine (and they should provide a reason), then a second opinion would be useful. Other than that, "it's fine" is one of the most annoying phrases in PCA. Some people only want to get their image approved quickly, or are lazy. Don't do images if you're lazy, at least let them be declined or withdraw them if you're lazy. People need to suck it up and simply do what another person tells them to do unless it's like, about slightly off colour of earpink, because whenever somebody says "it's fine", it turns into giant rants (more like heated discussions...) between people.

Stoner has basically said everything I wanted to say in less of a paragraph. If you're gonna be lazy and not fix/tweak/edit anything, don't take the image.

Official Designs/Manga Designs alts.
Before we got the new queen alts, we had offical art alts/manga alts; which have since then been removed/and or not redone. So im proposing an idea to bring them back.

Yes, i know that character designs are up to the the artists, but what im saying is that we could have chararts with the official art in the character pixels aswell. Not as the main image; but atleast on their page. Mainly so they will have more variety, while still including the designs the Illustrator created, but still having our own designs as the main images.

Also, Some characters could use alts like Silverstream. (Shown as Blue-gray tabby; Blue-gray is quite a few shades away from Silver.) and possibly Leafstar. (Shown as cream colored cat with brown tabby patches.)

We already have made chararts for characters as they were shown in TUG and CotC; (Onestar; Brown and white/cream alt), etc. And we already make alts on how some characters are shown in the black and white pages in the manga. I dont see why we cant have alts for the manga cover art aswell, since it is official art. Unless our designs are almost identical to the offical art, i think we should atleast add "official designs" alts to the character pages as they were shown in the pictures in the guides/mangas.

This will probably get shot down, but this has been bugging me for awhile. 23:01, September 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a good idea, but the only thing I'd be worried about is copyright issues, because we don't own the official images. Unless you mean doing alternates /exactly/ as they are depicted in the books. <span style="">11:22 PM, Tue Sep 30, 2014

Yes, this is what i mean. Using our blanks, and try to match the official designs as much as possible; not using the offical images themselves from the books, but simply matching those same patterns to the best of our ability.-- 23:27, September 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * I like this. In fact, I was just about to post something about this for Leafstar (I just finished reading SD again), so I think this is a great idea. We'd just have to find all of the pictures, which could be hard, but, then again, it's not much different from finding sources from the books. <span style="">11:33 PM, Tue Sep 30, 2014

*nudges* Can we get some other comments on this please? <span style="">9:15 PM, Mon Oct 6, 2014

I think we did this for a while... quite a bit of time ago... But I think we could definitely do it again. Some people might not connect the official desc. and the manga ones, because they are so drastically different. And since we count the manga as canon, we should definitely use the desc. in those. It'd be a different matter if the content was not considered canon, I think. <span style="">22:18, 10/6/2014

Can we get some more opinions on this?-- 18:56, October 12, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a reasonable idea. I dont know why they were ever discontinued; It still counts. Manga descriptions are used for manga-only cats (like Diesel), I don't see why they shouldnt be made into alts. 11:59, October 14, 2014 (UTC)

While I don't agree with Leafstar, because we do not know she is shown as brown and white and to say so is an assumption/plus it could be brown and cream for all we know- which is her confirmed description- we just show it differently, I would be okay with readding older images that were removed. Millie isn't shown in anywhere near the description she has, and we already have those alts done- they got removed for some odd reason.

I think this is a good idea, especially the official art part. For example Sol on the cover of outcast or wherever he appears, doesn't look like the charart he was made. --EosOfTheDawn (talk) 12:30, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea. There are a few books with alternate looking characters, especially Lionblaze. The Sight shows him as orange and Leafpool's Wish and The Forgotten Warrior looks more a dark golden-brown to me and his tabby stripes are not as visible. They also seem to like giving Hollyleaf short fur on The Sight and The Ultimate Guide than long fur on Hollyleaf's Story and Sunrise. --Stealthfire star (talk) 02:00, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

No, its been established time and time again that we do not make images based off of official art if they are not extremely different from their canon descriptions. Mainly because Wayne's style and pattern for the cats changes all the time. Millie's official description is completely different from her depiction in the manga, so yes I would agree that her alts should be readded to her page. Other alts based off of Cats of the Clans and The Ultimate Guide art are the same way - they have a completely different image than what they were shown in the book. For example, Boulder is a silver tabby, but in CotC he is blue, Heathertail is ginger, etc. I don't know why Silverstream's blue-grey alts were ever removed but they shouldn't have been as she's the same case as Boulder. But Lionblaze's depiction on FW is not two shades off of his description, and there's no reason to make a charart based off of a cover image if it's so similar to his given description. The same with Sol - he is described as a tortoiseshell tom, his chararts are tortoiseshell, and his cover image is tortoiseshell: he does not need an alt.

As for fur length, that's so minor and can easily be explained by seasons or even the cat's mood and doesn't deserve an entire alt dedicated to it. Half the time the authors themselves can't even keep track of the length of the cats fur in their narration.

As for manga alts, I believe since most of the time they are simplified versions of their canon description, they should not receive and entire image unless they are very different, such as Lionblaze appearing as a solid cat instead of a tabby. Basically, if they have a completely different pattern than in the books or they're a black cat or something and turn up white, things of that nature, that's when they should get a charart based off of the manga and should be entirely in greyscale. Otherwise the depictions of the cats in the mangas are based off of what the artist knows the description to be, hence why Millie is a rose colored tabby instead of silver - all he knew was that she was a tabby and went from there.

Now if you want to argue that we should include a gallery of scans of images from the books, that should probably go to another project, such as Characters, World, or even Reality, though I believe we don't do that do to copyright and a desire to keep copyrighted images on the wiki to just book covers for the most part. <span style="">15:08 Fri Oct 31 2014

I think with Hollyleaf she has short but thick fur, again though that could be explained with seasons. I think having the covers/official art on the pages is both a good and a bad idea, because of major description changes, but we also have to be careful if we show the official art because of copyright. I think in cases like Leafstar, her cover design and our design for her are very different from one another and she should have an alt for that. (only for the leader and anything earlier because she hasn't been described as a queen in anything but the manga (right?) <span style="">3:44 PM, Sun Nov 2, 2014

Oh no; that's not what im suggesting. Im not talking about adding the pages of pictures from the books; im simply saying we can try and match the designs given to the cats with our own blank, given they aren't close resembling our own designs. =) Showing the actual cover art and official art pictures would be copyright; so using our blanks instead and trying to match those designs seems like a much better way to avoid this.-- 17:07, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

I think you're missing what's been said about Leafstar. She's still shown as brown and cream, which is what her description is. She shouldn't get an alt for that- just because our chararts are different than what her comic description is (they're not manga, do not call them that, please), doesn't mean she gets an alt for artist's interpretation. Now, if she was shown as brown and white in those comics, that's another story. But, she was shown as brown and cream.

I understand that she is still shown as brown and cream, and I'm talking about the cover on SD, not comic/manga (which they have been referred to as manga so I see no reason to change that) which the pattern is much different. And besides, I was merely using her as an example, Snow. <span style="">5:48 PM, Sun Nov 2, 2014

We have no citation to her being on the cover of SkyClan's Destiny. No matter how obvious, we cannot assume. Again, she looks (They're not manga. Manga is of Japanese origin and reads from right to left. These are comics, as they read from left to right.)

No, I don't think we should require the manga and charart designs to match. If you want to make their images match then go ahead but otherwise no. It goes against our realistic design standards for characters and would waste countless amazing images. It simply wouldn't be worth it. <span style="">19:22 Sun Nov 2 2014

I don't think anyone said anything about making them match as the normal image, I'm almost positive that Breeze is saying that for some of the images that we have cover cites for we should have an alternate of that image (in whatever blank it should be, like leader or queen), whereas redoing the images we have right now would be dumb because they are amazing peices of art and deserve to be recognized. Should we just have a vote on this or something instead of (what seems like to me)  arguing? <span style="">8:31 PM, Sun Nov 2, 2014

Why? What's the point? The cover images are usually just simple headshots of the characters and you can see few markings besides whats on their face and chest. There's not nearly enough to make an alt out of. It'd be one thing if Lionblaze showed up as a black cat on a cover, but for just a shade's difference there's no point. That's even the standard for normal images with descriptions in the books. And what would we vote on? Like, you do realize that working on a wiki is mostly arguing your point, right? Also, if you're going say something don't cover it up with small text. <span style="">16:59 Thu Nov 6 2014

Thats true, but wheres the harm in making alts for the design's from books like CotC and TUG, and the manga's? (Given they aren't close resembling our own designs) They show the cats full image (or atleast most of them do) Cats like Sol and Millie, and some others have design's completely different than ours. I'm not saying we should replace our own designs, all im proposing is that we make alts to go into their character pixels with their original book given designs. Our design's will still be the main image, but the official patterned copies using our blanks will simply just be an alt. That way, we are still recognizing how the illustrator designed them, and also adding more variety.-- 22:55, November 8, 2014 (UTC)

I still think you're missing what we're saying. Sol is still a tortoiseshell, and a lot of the images in CotC and TUG are already showing a character's description. Just because it doesn't show what we have, doesn't mean it's not the same thing. It's just how Wayne decides to paint the characters. He doesn't know how we design them (to my knowledge), and he's given basic descriptions, so he just works with what he has. It doesn't make them anymore official than our designs. We go with what we know, and Wayne goes with what he knows. Millie's design in The Lost Warrior (the entire trilogy) is because the artist (I think anyways) only knew she was a tabby, nothing more, nothing less.

Alright. It was just an idea =). Sol used to have an alt for his design on Long Shadow's and TUG, but its since been removed? Same with Silverstream and Millie. Maybe we could just re-add the images that were made back then back to the character pages?-- 23:10, November 8, 2014 (UTC)

Non pregnant queen blanks
Ok so it's been ages since the new queen blanks were approved. But there's still the issue of the non queen blanks. Are we going to have someone edit them to be non pregnant or just use the old non pregnant ones? 04:19, October 14, 2014 (UTC)

I'd be fine with using the old ones, or the edited version you just showed me a little bit ago. We only need them for a couple images so I dunno why it's been postponed this long.

I dunno either... And seriously, it's an easy edit. You can even do it in MS Paint (well, any blank can be done in MS paint, but you get me). It should have just been done when the queen blanks we have right now were approved. 07:08, October 14, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, since David's being stubborn, this is what he did for the short-haired blank, and I think the longhaired would be about the same, just with the fluffyness. Personally, I don't care if we use the old ones or make perma-queens from the newer ones- they've just been sitting there.

My only concern is that people would get confused at what blank to use, but I support using the edited version of the new ones :) <span style="">10:20 AM, Tue Oct 14, 2014

If people get confused, we can just ask them to switch to the correct blank, not big deal. It's not like there are many that even need a non preggers image (just Squirrelflight, Daisy, and Ferncloud from the very top of my head) 11:35, October 14, 2014 (UTC)

Squirrelflight, Daisy, Ferncloud, Clovertail, Goldenflower, One-eye, and several alts. I think we should just edit the newer blanks since theyre current and recognised as the queen images by everyone. It's probably a just question of who'll do them. 11:42, October 14, 2014 (UTC)

Is the artist of the pregnant blanks active? If so, s/he should probably do them. If not, possibly a vote? IDFK. 11:55, October 14, 2014 (UTC)

The artist of the queen blanks is not active and there is no need to tell the artist to do this, when we can easily do it with the users we have here. It doesn't make it easier by calling on an inactive user who has left the wiki just for blanks. Honestly, it's only for a few images, so just someone go and do them. I really do not care who.

Does anyone mind if I take these? We just need to edit the bellies and post them to the approval page right? I can start tonight. <span style="">6:55 PM, Wed Oct 15, 2014

Well, I think we should just use the one that David edited for the short-haired, and I guess if you want to edit the longhaired to come up with your own idea, go right ahead, and then you can link us to it and stuff.

Okay. I'll work on that tonight. Want me to post a link here or put it on the page (If I put it on the page do I need to wait until one of my 3 images (1 on approval tonight, 2 on tweak) is archived? (aka put it in the table?) <span style="">7:11 PM, Wed Oct 15, 2014

Okay so I layered David's over the regular queen lineart and did that, sorry about the fluffy I'm not sure how to fix that. <span style="">11:30 PM, Wed Oct 15, 2014

I decided to play around with this a bit, I hope no one minds? http://www.ezimba.com/work/141028C/ezimba16768173236600.png Jayie  Unwritten words~ 21:20, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm... I don't think the belly should extend onto the leg like that. Perhaps erase that bit of it? <span style="">9:29 PM, Mon Oct 27, 2014

Actually, because of the angle, the belly should extend onto the leg. It's not so much about the roundness of the belly as it is about perspective. Here's an example: http://blog.sureflap.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Cats-in-a-row-2.jpg It's a bit more extreme than this blank, but it shows the idea. The belly is in front of the leg on the body, so at the angle with the cat walking towards the camera, the belly will appear to be more in front of the leg, just as the head will appear to be more in front of the shoulder. Jayie Unwritten words~ 21:36, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm going off of the one skt did. <span style="">8:45 PM, Tue Oct 28, 2014

I'm just saying, that's how the anatomy should work. Jayie Unwritten words~ 20:46, October 28, 2014 (UTC)

I actually agree with Jayie; also, the belly looks too short in constrast to the back leg... could the back leg maybe be thinned? oops, I was looking at the wrong one. 15:56, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

So is it agreed that we use http://www.ezimba.com/work/141028C/ezimba16768173236600.png for the longfurred? I'd like to get started on Petal, so is this the blank you think should be used?-- 16:16, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

I actually think that that's too straight for the belly. I think we should be focused on actually finishing the blanks before we get started on anything. I say we start with the traditional shorthair and move our way from there. I say we move the belly >>>> this way some more to expose the thigh some and to also slim down the belly, like this, maybe? <span style="">2:05 Fri Oct 31

That's still a bit too rounded, they still look pregnant. It would have to be flatter. Perhaps not as flat as mine, but flatter. Jayie Unwritten words~ 02:48, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Would this be about right, then? Perhaps with a few tweaks to the longhair though, i'm not too good with floof 10:01, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Almost there. The line still curves too much, so just stretch it out a bit towards the hip rather than curling in towards higher up on the back, and I think you've got it. Jayie Unwritten words~ 14:29, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

I thought we were using David's for the shorthair? That's what was said above, at least. <span style="">3:18 PM, Fri Oct 31, 2014

Skt's look great for anatomy. Just fluff them out for the longhaired. <span style="">15:20 Fri Oct 31 2014

Okay. I'll do that at some point tomorrow, since I said I'd do the longhair anyways. Not gonna be able to get to my charart computer tonight... so... <span style="">3:24 PM, Fri Oct 31, 2014

The only thing about Skt's, which should also be edited on the longhair, is that the belly line should cross over the leg, not the other way around. It doesn't need to cross over a lot, you'd just need to shift a few pixels. Jayie Unwritten words~ 05:31, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Nah, its fine. Shorthaired cats will often show a stretch of excess skin much like that. Especially when the cat's leg is back like it is. Longhair would floof more around the curve of the belly but the short is fine. <span style="">6:57 Sat Nov 1 2014

On those images (the ones where the cat was walking towards us, like here), I still see that the belly is slightly in front of the leg, and the curve shows that a little bit. It's harder to see without a hard outline of the cat, but since this is a hard outline of the cat, that belly being in front of the leg should be reflected. Jayie Unwritten words~ 07:00, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Not really. What you're seeing is the fur changing direction or floofing out from the stomach. Most cats' stomachs, if they aren't fat, don't bulge out. Here's a couple of sphinx if you don't believe me. You can see that the legs are either about even with the belly or round outward a little bit. Feral cats tend to be quite skinny as well. Since the blank is very short-haired they're fine. Its just the long-haired blanks that should be fixed to add the fluffy roundness of the fur. <span style="">7:13 Sat Nov 1 2014

I guess I can see how that works on that last image. Sorry to be so stubborn about the point. Jayie Unwritten words~ 07:15, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Fixed the belly floof (aka I finally figured out how to do said belly floof) <span style="">3:19 PM, Sat Nov 1, 2014

I wouldn't say that looks "fluffy" enough... <span style="">15:22 Sun Nov 2

What do you mean, Hawk? Is it the belly, or another part? <span style="">3:33 PM, Sun Nov 2, 2014

The belly. The lines on the belly don't resemble fur very much, no offense to you. <span style="">22:56 Fri Nov 7

Question
Im just curious i was a apprentice does thatmean since im got done being mentored i was a warrior? Patch 19:19, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

No. You need to get three images approved in order to become a warrior- there are no exceptions to this.

Ancient Lake Leaders
I noticed that the leaders of the ancient group at the lake, Furled Bracken and Stone Song, don't have leader blanks. They were the leaders for their group, so shouldn't they get the blank? Jayie Unwritten words~ 20:05, October 28, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think they do, because our blanks are depicting the traditional Clan leaders. As much as it shows they were leaders, they would have to have an Ancient Tribe Leader blank, but it's only two of them so I doubt it's neccicary. <span style="">3:19 PM, Thu Oct 30, 2014

I could see the point of that. I would like to point out, though, that Gray Wing was given a leader blank, even though he wasn't part of a real Clan (Tall Shadow's camp isn't WindClan yet, after all) even though he was about as official a leader as Furled Bracken and Stone Song. And to be fair, if Gray Wing was part of a group that would eventually give birth to the Clans, so were FB and SS. The ancient lake cats eventually became both the tribe and the Clans. Jayie Unwritten words~ 15:25, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Gray Wing was actually called a Clan leader in one of the field guides, if memory serves. That's why he gets a leader image. As for the other ones, I think they should- they are leaders, and specifically called as such.

I think they should get leader blanks; they were actually leaders, weren't they? Even if they weren't part of a clan, they were still leaders. Also; if this is true, would Scourge get a leader blank? He was leader of BloodClan, even if it wasn't an offical clan. 15:49, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Since the ancient cats are also linked to the Clans, they should qualify..but BloodClan was never an official Clan, and were essentially a bunch of rogues who were a tad more organized.

Generally, cats that aren't organized fully don't get specific images for ranks. Both the Tribe and the Clans have a full hierarchy, but groups such as BloodClan or the Ancient Lake cats had a very loose structure and their leaders were really just there because other cats deferred to them, not because that was their official rank. <span style="">20:04 Thu Oct 30 2014

But again, the Camps in DotC aren't as organized either, and their leaders are as easily chosen and discarded as the lake's leaders, but they are definitely leaders and in charge of things. Furled Bracken directed a vote, helped organize cats to make this enormous decision for their future, and Stone Song led his cats to a new territory. They both did quite a bit as leaders. Jayie Unwritten words~ 20:17, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

The camp leaders all have leader chararts because they were confirmed to be the leaders of their respective Clans. Maybe it would be better to say they weren't leaders by ceremony, like Clan leaders and Healers? <span style="">20:23 Thu Oct 30 2014

And Stone Song and Furled Bracken were both confirmed to be leader as well. Jayie Unwritten words~ 20:32, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Can we please not turn this into and argument? >< Anyway, I'm a bit indifferent about this. Furled Bracken and Stone Song were leaders, and unlike Scourge, it wasn't just because the other cats were afraid of him or wanted some of their power. However, they weren't really 'formal' or anything. but at the same time they did lead... 20:33, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Its not an argument?

And they weren't Clan leaders, Gray Wing, Tall Shadow, River Ripple, Wind Runner, and Clear Sky were confirmed to be the first Clan leaders. They do not have leader chararts because they were camp leaders. That by itself does not give them nine lives and a leader/Healer name or mean that they had a ceremony to give them their titles. If we gave the Ancient Lake cats leader images, we would have to give every cat that ever made decisions for any group of cats leader blanks, including Smoky, Dodge, Stick, and several others. <span style="">20:58 Thu Oct 30 2014

Honestly, I don't think they had a structure that was organized enough to be able to officially get the leader blank, so I agree with Raelic here. <span style="">1:47 Fri Oct 31

They were organized enough to have ranks (softpaw, sharpclaw, elder), which is more than can be said of Stick's group, Dodge's group, or even BloodClan. I think that suggests they have a semi-organized structure, even if it isn't as rigid as the Clans. If sharpclaw is it's own rank, rather than just being counted as a rogue, than that suggests the lake group had ranks, and that leader is one of them. If that made any sense. Jayie Unwritten words~ 01:52, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. The other positions of the lake group all have their own characts, and it is very much like a semi clan/tribe. I think it fits, even if it just affects two cats, but than again, there are only five officially known Softpaws, so with ancients, numbers don't count that much. That's what I think anyway. --Stealthfire star (talk) 02:08, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Reclaiming an image
My Tallpoppy was declined a while ago due to lack of work. Am I allowed to retry her now? EosOfTheDawn (talk) 12:26, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

I think there's some kinda rule in place so if your image gets declined, you need to wait a while to reserve it again to give others a chance to make it, but if there is, you've waited longer than that. Just check to make sure nobody else has it reserved, and you should be able to go take it. 13:00, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

That only applies to if it's declined due to the one month limit. Dawn, if you'd like to post Tallpoppy again, if it's not taken, by all means go right ahead.

Okay, thanks!EosOfTheDawn (talk) 17:01, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Ineffably - Join Request
Hello everyone! My name is Fable and I'm new to WWikia, so I hope I'm doing this right!! nvn;; I would like to become a member of PCA - I've actually been thinking about applying for membership here for several years; I was an unregistered visitor of the site about five years ago when I discovered PCA, and since then my (digital) art skills have improved by leaps and bounds. I use GIMP, Paint Tool Sai, and FireAlpaca to create digital art, and I have extensive skill with pixeling (if you need examples I can provide them!) I'm hoping that this is the correct way to apply for a positiion and I can't wait to help make WWikia a better place! ;v; Have a wonderful day! -- <font face="Century Gothic"><font color="#3F2937">f <font color="#5B2438">a <font color="#761F39">b <font color="#921A3A">l <font color="#AD153B">e <font color="#FFFFFF">∞ 16:37, November 3, 2014 (UTC)

Sure thing man, remember to read the guidelines, and if you need any help making Chararts, have a look at our tutorials or apply for a mentor to teach you here. Sorry it took so long. 14:35, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

Apprentice Tutorials
Okay, I figure if I do it this way, at least someone will listen to me. I've locked and reverted the apprentice tutorial page, due to many of the newer edits being added without the approval and critique of the entire project. Basically, as I've said before (and I kinda got disregarded), these things need to be agreed upon by the entire project. So, until then, no one is going to be adding anything to the apprentice tutorial pages until they are, essentially, approved by the project. This including shading placement charts.

I'm really sorry if I'm just out of the loop on this, but where are the tutorials going to be approved? I'd be all for putting it on the approval page and dividing that page into two sections temporarily (tutorials being at the top probably). Also, I kind of think we should also judge (loosely) on the final product a bit more considering that some of the final products on the tutorials now would probably not make the cut sometimes. At the same time, it'd be helpful to also judge the tutorial as a whole to see if it makes sense to different people. Just a thought, sorry if something like this is already a thing, eeps. 05:44, November 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'm game for putting it on the approval page in another section. I also think that putting a tutorial up should require little to no tweaking for the thing the tutorial is on on the final image for it to be accepted. Like a limit of x number of comments or reuploads on the image, but an unlimited number on making the tutorial clearer. <span style="">5:53 Fri Nov 7 2014

Nope, it's a good question^^ and I think putting them on either the approval page, or perhaps having a separate page for them in general would be a good idea. I basically just reverted it to the last edit before the initial shutdown last year, since most of those tutorials had been around and made by some pretty well-standing members, so it appeared to be what we went by. Before the restart of the project, there was a bit more of a... I don't know the right word, but perhaps "formal process", I would say? I know you usually had to ask permission to make a tutorial, and now they're just kinda made whenever someone feels like it. Whether or not they're added on the page, I don't know anymore. Especially with shading placements, colors, eye styles, ect, there should really be some form of process. I suppose general tutorials (like the basics for making a white cat, a brown cat, ect) we could be a bit more lax with... but given the skill levels of the project these days, the art and tutorials that we use should also be up to those same standards- I'm not saying "only users that can do [insert style here] can make tutorials" or "you can only make one if you can match [insert user or character]'s images" or things like that. There just really needs to be an actual process to these things again. Everyone making whatever they please throws everything out of balance. Sorry, I make no sense. Also since Breezey EC'd me, I'm gonna say that her idea about the comments and reuploads is a wonderful idea.

No, I feel the same way. We can't start adding some random tutorials... dk if that includes mine but if you got rid of it I'm cool with that :P  Honestly, I find some users are still too new to PCA to post tutorials, and some of them are actually kind of pointless, no offense to anyone. <span style="">22:54 Fri Nov 7

Shading tutorial
File:Shading Tutorial.png Figured I'd resubmit my shading tutorial. Sorry I didn't realize it had to be approved before. Is this alright for the apprentice tutorial page? The program used was the app ArtStudio on the iPad. Jayie Unwritten words~ 01:53, November 7, 2014 (UTC)

Silver Tabbies
Generally people tend to follow this, but the description of a silver tabby by cat fanciers is a tabby cat with a white/extremely pale base coat and dark stripes. (The most common silver tabby is the black and pale silver tabby, but you can also have red silver tabbies and brown silver tabbies and every dilution thereof they're just much rarer.) Sometimes, though, people make their silver tabbies silvery-grey. What I'm basically getting at here is I think we should create a standard for silver tabbies on chararts. I personal think we should go with the cat fancier definition. <span style="">5:06 Fri Nov 7 2014

I see exactly what you mean, referring back to the "smoky" discussion you brought up a while back. I agree with this, because silver is a pelt type, and if we incorporated the smoky we should do this one as well. <span style="">22:48 Fri Nov 7

This makes sense. Silver is a specific type of tabby, not just a pale gray-ish color. ^^ Jayie  Unwritten words~ 16:02, November 11, 2014 (UTC)

I say let's go for it. Some already do use this way, but I don't think having a standard would hurt. Might cause some images to be tweaked, but other than that, it's not gonna bug me any. Plus, silver tabbies are so beautiful *.*

Join Request
May I join the project? I'll be active pretty often and I'd really like to help out. Snowies 19:22, 8 Nov. 2014 (UTC)

Of course! remember to read the guidelines! 19:56, November 8, 2014 (UTC)

Join Requesting thingy :)
Hello, I'm Echo and I am interested in joining the PCA! I've been looking here for about 4 years and have admired the work of the artist's and I want to learn to be one!--Echorunner (talk) 14:25, November 9, 2014 (UTC)Echorunner

Of course! Welcome to PCA, and remember to read the guidelines! 16:20, November 10, 2014 (UTC)