Warriors Wiki talk:Characters/Archive 111

Clear Sky and One Eye plus One Eye's camp?
Me and Patch were talking as we were re-reading the Blazing Star and came upon that Clear Sky was forced to be driven out by One Eye and his rogues. Plus none of Clear Sky's cats joined him, only Sparrow Fur. However, this brings a discussion where would One Eye succeed Clear Sky unofficially, and this is the same situation where Darktail forces Rowanstar out and unofficially becomes leader of ShadowClan and his rogues before becoming the Kin. Then once One Eye was killed, Clear Sky took back his camp and became leader again. When Clear Sky was staying at Tall Shadow's camp, many cats referred to Clear Sky's cats as One Eye's rogues and cats. It's not Clear Sky's camp.. but would it count as One Eye's group or camp? Me and Patch want to see what other people's thoughts or comments on this.

Also, I'd like to bring up that when Thunder was born, he was basically a rogue, and not a Clan cat yet. It even states in the Blazing Star, too. Not get the image, but would he get the past thing? Needletail 🐾 #Litten 02:34, May 11, 2018 (UTC)

I support this idea. Even if isn't official, One Eye did force his way to leadership is Clear Sky's camp. Most of the cats remained in the camp as One Eye took over, and like Cosmo said, they are referred to as "One Eye's cats" so I think it would count as a group, even if it was only for a short period of time. Clear Sky came and took back the leadership of the group, after One Eye had been leading it, so I believe it should be added that One Eye succeeded Clear Sky, and Clear Sky later succeeds One Eye.

As for Thunder's case, I also agree with because he was not part of any group while he was young living with his mother, Storm, so I'd think that'd be listed as a past affiliation. 02:46, May 11, 2018 (UTC)

imo it would be camp since it was an established area, and its not even unofficial, it was him taking clear skys camp.

clear skys cats also do stay with him, even if unwillingly, and those cats that were forced to be with the kin still have the affie (even if its with a note explaining theyre prisoners). my question is if they would be considered rogues and get a listing for the time during they were one eye's cats or no? 07:09, May 11, 2018 (UTC)

I guess camp since you explained it better, aha.

That brings another good question now.. would they? They are me ruined to be One Eye's rogues lots of times in the blazing star... Needletail 🐾 #Litten 10:30, May 11, 2018 (UTC)

They should get those cites, I believe. Whether they wanted it or not, it defined them for a time.

Are Birch and Alder old enough to be considered "rogues"? Like if we agreed with the One Eye's Camp. And then the leader's unofficial leader succeeding/preceding for Rowan/dark and one eye/clear sky, and then thunder with the rogue affie? Needletail 🐾 #Litten 01:29, May 12, 2018 (UTC)

They were kits iirc, so no. Not really.

One Eye never officially leads Clear Sky's camp, though. Just like Darktail never officially led ShadowClan, so if we do not have one for Darktail and ShadowClan, why One Eye and Clear Sky? 02:38, May 12, 2018 (UTC)

darktail didn't lead shadowclan because it only existed via rowanstar, tawnypelt, and tigerheart at that point. shattered sky even confirms that. (which brings up another issue of why he and others have sc affie if that's so....) as far as I can tell one eye even says he "took the leadership" out of clear sky's paws, clear sky says "one eye has taken over my camp", and it outright says "one eye's camp" on another page. whether that's enough to say he was leader after clear sky or even enough for it's own page, I don't know, but there's some evidence regardless. 23:02, May 13, 2018 (UTC)

Because most of the ShadowClan cats who were under Darktail's ruling in the early days did still consider themselves ShadowClan, so that's where that cite comes from. Also, if they called it "One Eye's camp", then it's pretty safe to say he took over.

One Eye did take over Clear Sky's camp for a while until he was killed. Same with Darktail- he took over ShadowClan before they turned into the Kin. Needletail 🐾 #Litten 00:18, May 15, 2018 (UTC)

Any more comments? 01:32, May 23, 2018 (UTC)

Is there a clear conclusion? I cannot see one. 02:15, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

I think the conclusion is: -Thunder gets the rogue past affie as he was a kit. -Clear Sky is succeeded by One Eye where all of Clear Sky's cats become One Eye's cAts to where the camp is now called One Eye's Camp where they're rogues and have past affies of it. Then is succeeded by cleR Sky once more. -Rowanstar unofficially is succeeded by Darktail and then is then succeeded by Rowanstar again. Same with Clear Sky and One Eye. -all of Clear sky's cat are considered rogues or get that catergory.  N e e d l e t a i l  🐾  The crazy cat  lady    02:39, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

The two first statements completely contradict each other. Thunder was never a rogue - he was a kit, he was too young to be a rogue. And all of Clear Sky's cats joined Gray Wing's group if I recalled. None of them turned rogues. 03:37, May 29, 2018 (UTC)

Thunder is a rogue by birth, and therefore gets the listing in his article as a past affiliation, because of his mother. That listing does not warrant a charart, due to him being a kit. He already has a rogue listing due to a mistaken mention in Secrets of the Clans, I believe. The rogue listing in and of itself for said field guide is a mistake (unless there's other stuff I'm missing here), due to us having information that contradicts that.

Was just about to say that lol. And only Sparrow Fur and Clear Sky ledt. The rest of his cats stayed.  N e e d l e t a i l  🐾  The crazy cat  lady    03:48, May 29, 2018 (UTC)

Bump?  N e e d l e t a i l  🐾  The crazy cat  lady    02:01, June 2, 2018 (UTC)

Archiving due to agreement to get rid of Cosmo's presence on the wiki.

Apprenticeship in the camps
Some cats in the camps are being trained by others. For example, Reed Tail trains Dust Muzzle and Moth Flight techniques, or Eagle Feather and Mouse Ear, or Black Ear and Spotted Fur. The cats that were in Slash's camp probably doesn't count or they could say unofficial mentor or remove the cite overall. Should we cites count as the trainee to be an apprentice? Like Dew Petal teaching Honey Pelt? Or Cloud Spots mentoring Ember for a short while. Medicine cats like Pebble Heart or Acorn Fur got the mca, and Micah and Reed Tail were trained, too, but would they get the mca? Pebble Heart was approved and Acorn Fur a while back. Thoughts? Needletail 🐾 #Litten 23:34, May 20, 2018 (UTC)

The only cat I can think this remotely passes for is Pebble Heart. But I fervently disagree with everyone else - none of them were ever "apprentices." 02:02, May 21, 2018 (UTC)

Pebble Heart and Acorn Fur, imo. Acorn Fur was very clearly learning from Micah in a traditional mentor/apprentice way. Other than that, I don't think sharing knowledge and whatnot really counts.

I'm not sure they should count. Pebble Heart and Acorn Fur certainly would, as MCAs. A lot of these were before Clans were a thing, hence why cats like Snail Shell already have it but these don't - because they weren't actually apprentices.

Any more comments? 02:21, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

Archiving due to agreement to get rid of Cosmo's presence on the wiki.

Past Affies
Okay- some past affies are correct and stuff, or count as a past affie, but there are some that should be discussed/or count maybe. Depends on how we see it or view g? The apprentices in SkyClan such as Plumwillow and her siblings, etc taking Kittypet food. They got the affie but really never joined them. I guess Pebble Heart and his siblings he wouldn't count as they were never really official kittypets, just stolen. Birdwing could count? But Leafstar and her kits count as they stayed there for more than a day. I'd say we could count affies if a cat stayed somewhere for more than a day? Such as Stormfur, Feathertail, Violetshine(when she was in ThunderClan). I also think that Twigpaw should get the ShadowClan temp past affie as she stayed in ShadowClan for more than a day, but was kidnapped and still stayed there. This counts for Leadpool as she did help train cats and stayed there more than a day or two. Quiet Rain I think should get an affie of Tall Shadow's Camp as she did stay there for a while before dying. We see this as Clear Sky after he lost his camp for a while to zone Rye and Grey Wing going to River Ripple's camp for more than a day. I guess what I'm trying to explain is- which affies should count and which should not depending on the situation. Also when Twigpaw left ThunderClan- is she considered a loner? Or just stilly ThunderClan -as stated in SS- it took more than 2 weeks for her to find SkyClan. And when Firestar and Sandstorm left thunder to find skyclan- they were probably loners if we count it as they /left/. Also with Tallstar being a Kittypet- he stayed there for a while and was helped by the Twolegs. We don't count Willowbreeze as she unofficially never stayed there for more than a day. Cloudpaw was caught for more than moon- so he counts as a Kittypet as an apprentice. Sorry this is confusing or something- but I think it needs to be discussed with what counts and what doesn't- even if it's temp or not. <font face="Brush Script MT,cursive" color="451179" style="font-size:24px;text-shadow:4px 5px 6px #b278ed;">Needletail 🐾 <font face="Papyrus" color="3a3ce4" style="font-size:5px;">#Litten 01:01, May 24, 2018 (UTC)

I agree that Twigbranch's should count. Quiet Rain's, too.

I do not think cats that are kidnapped should count. That would be like making Ivypool ShadowClan, since ShadowClan kept her for a bit. And if cats leave their Clans to find others, that does not make them a loner - in that case, Firestar and Sandstorm and every questing cat ever would become a loner. I do not think they were loners, they had no plans on leaving their Clan forever, they knew they would come back and it was just for a mission. Cloudpaw I think can maybe count as a kittypet for a bit, but I also do not think any cat kidnapped and stayed against their will counts as "part of the Clan," or wherever they were taken. 02:17, May 24, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with pretty much everything brought up here, but I'm siding with Icy on the kidnapped thing and questing cats. Sandstorm and Firestar were still ThunderClan cats, they never offically left, just left their territores for a bit, but they were always ThunderClan. Kidnapped cats I don't think should count either because it's basically the same thing with questing cats, they never left their Clan, they're being forced to stay against their will, but they're still said Clans cats. Now for Stormfur, Feathertail, and Violetshine, i think that's fine, they were living in that Clan for a bit, same goes for Quiet Rain, and yeah, Pebbleheart and his siblings probably won't count. Same thing applies for Twigpaw in the FireSand one. Now Plumwillow and her siblings, I don't quite remember the situation they were in so I don't have much comment on that :P I think Birdwing would count, if I'm remembering what happened to her correctly. 02:34, May 24, 2018 (UTC)

Only cats held against their will that should count are Kin prisoners imo, since the whole oath thing etc. otherwise, they shouldn't get it unless it was for a very significant amount of time. I also think that Plumwillow and co's KP cite some need to be removed - they weren't actually kittypets and just took the food. If we counted all the cats who've been mentioned to have had kittypet food we'd have to add HJ apprentices, MO, Needlepaw, ones and many more, which really isn't accurate because they're not actually kittypets.

Taking back what I said, cats taken as prisoners should not count.

I do agree that cats held against their will shouldn't get it, but maybe unofficially since they did stay there. Another example I found was Fritz. He was a Kittypet who was held in BloodClan for more than a moon. But I still don't know. And what about the kittens for the skyclan apprentices? I think they should be removed except for Birdwing. sandynose was already a Kittypet in HJ as he was taken so that stays, but the rest could go. <span style="font-family:Curlz MT, serif;font-size:20px;text-shadow:black 3px 3px 7px;"> N e e d l e t a i l  🐾  <span style="font-family:Curlz MT, serif;text-shadow:black 1px 1px 6px;">The crazy cat  lady    17:16, May 27, 2018 (UTC)

The SkyClan cats should very much count. They took food multiple times, hid it from their Clanmates, and broke the code. If it was a one-off thing, then sure, but this was not and they took food many times, and Birdwing even got treatment. Fritz was held prisoner, and the reason Darktail's prisoners counted is because Darktail forced them to take "an oath".

I disagree with the SkyClan cats being called kitty pets. The definition of kittypet is a domestic cat that lives with Twolegs, and these cats never officially lived with Twolegs. 09:57, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

I have to agree with icy. a feral cat taking food from humans does not a kittypet make, plus they were still clearly aligned with skyclan. otherwise we may as well give kittypet images to duskpaw, hollowflight, rushtail, and whoever has ever taken food from a twoleg at some stage. 11:34, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

Any more comments? 00:17, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

one more question, what about cats like the group in tnp, where they left and came back, but everyone had thought they had abandoned their clans? 00:24, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Still, I do not think they count as rogues or loners. They did not plan on leaving their Clan permanently, while others, like Leafpool and Crowfeather, did. They were still Clan cats. 00:30, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Archiving due to agreement to get rid of Cosmo's presence on the wiki.