Warriors Wiki talk:Charart

=For Approval= Take it to the approval page

=Tweaked= Take it to the tweak page

=Discussion=

On Alts
I think we need to be a bit clearer on what constitutes an alt and what doesn't. That's just me, however.

On a similar note, I'm wondering how it is that we decide what is a mistake in descriptions and what isn't. My confusion came from comparing Willowshine's description against Redwillow's. For Redwillow we did not take into account the likelyhood that being described with a tawny head, most likely meaning he was entirely tawny, was a mistake. For Willowshine, it's entirely possible that she is either a dark or light gray tabby, but we have plain alts for both dark and light gray.

I know this may seem silly, I just want some clarification as to how this wiki goes about deciding what's a mistake and what isn't. 23:34, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

I think I see what you mean, about Redwillow. You're right, it wouldn't seem like he'd have a tawny head out of nowhere. He'd probably get an alt for being plain tawny. 00:54, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

AH, thank you, Shellheart. I was thinking the same thing not too long ago. I always thought that Redwillow should've had a tawny alt, and that Willowshine should've had a specific shade from the beginning. Maybe take into account how many times she's been called light vs dark and use the one that's been used the most. Then she can have an alt for the opposite shade. 01:24 Sun Oct 30

That sounds like the most logical thing, Wildheart. I've always felt that cats should have descriptions based on what they are called most. I could go into the Dovewing's eyes debate here, but I choose not to. 01:39, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Dovewing... Yeah, let's not start that. xD But yeah, I agree with you. I've always found the Willowshine thing confusing myself... 01:41, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

So what is to be done about this? 03:19, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Iceheart and the others haven't commented yet, and I'd like to hear their opinions on it as well before anything's enforced. 03:22, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Oops I forgot to add my two cents. This bugged me as well, because, say, we have a cat described as brown, but at one point he is referred as flecked. To me, it would seem to be a part of the normal description but they just forgot it, but too, we don't know what their intentions were with the cat in mind (especially minor characters)  03:26, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

I say that in the end, we should always add into descriptions what would be most genetically possible. This is the decision we made with ginger stripes, is it not? So a ginger tom with a tawny head? Most likely not possible. Just because the Erins don't pay attention to genetics doesn't mean we can't. And when it comes to specific shades of a basic color like with Willowshine, we should go with whichever one came first and make an alt for the other one. So Willowshine would be a dark gray tabby, not just gray. 06:37, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Ooh, I like that. Let's go with what Shellheart said. XD 06:58 Mon Oct 31

Although, if a character was described first as a dark gray tabby (just an example), and then for the rest of the books, was described as a light gray tabby, we would probably go with the light gray tabby description. I don't know how to put that into a guideline, though... 07:00 Mon Oct 31

I'd like to get the opinion of one more lead and either Iceheart or Scareltwind before anything is done. 12:45, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

IM a science nerd so i love the idea of sticking to the genetic rules. I think this could work. 01:57, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

I mean only when it comes to alts that can be questioned. We can't stick 100% to genetic laws, as the Erins do not and as there are genetic anomalies in the word. I have, in fact, seen a white cat with black paws and ears. 02:13, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Kay, so what's the final decision before this thing gets archived? 15:48, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I think that Redwillow should get a whole new alternate for being described with a tawny head, and for Willowshine, I think it was said which ever one it was described as first would be the original color, or the one that was described as the most. 02:02, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

So, have we come to an official conclusion on this matter? 18:23, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Questions
I have a few questions regarding charart alts. First, would Minnowpaw get an alt. for being described with dappled fur? Would Pouncepaw get an alt for being described with a short tabby tail? Would Redstar get an alt. for being bracken-colored? Would Leopardfoot get an alt. for being described as mottled? Would Sweetpaw get an alt. for being described as a mottled tabby?

I realize that we may have had discussions about some of these questions, but I wasn't paying attention, so would someone kindly explain to me why they would or would not get an alt.? Thanks a lot! 23:44, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

I guess some of these would get alts and some not. 23:51, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

I know that. I want to know which ones get alts and which ones don't. 23:57, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Minnowtail I'm not sure about, probably, but then again you only need to add darker spots persay. Pouncepaw probably would be if the lineart is an alteration. Redstar, probably would get an alt because bracken-colored is different than ginger (i.e. Mosspelt). Leoparfoot and Sweetpaw are the same as Minnowpaw. That's what I've gotten out of the few...discussions/questions I've seen. :P 02:20, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering if Leopardfoot did, cause I wanna do hers :P 14:24, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

Would Pouncepaw then be a tweak or a normal charart? I think Leopardfoot should get one since solid black and mottled are different. 23:54, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Pouncepaw might just have that description be added to his overall description, so his charart should be tweaked. Redstar I think should get one, since if we go by Mosspelt's alternate the color is much different than Redstar's charart. About Sweetpaw and Leopardfoot, they would probably get alts. I remember there was once a Sweetpaw alternate up but it was declined because we didn't have the default brown rule yet, so that's what her alt. would be. 02:06, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Since Pouncepaw was an apprentice, and his tail was still growing, he probably wouldn't get an alt for a short tabby tail as he's already tabby. 05:46 Thu Nov 10

I think they all should get alts. 02:07, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

So, have we come to a conclusion on this matter? 18:24, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Something Fun!
I was talking with a few other users in the chat room and had an idea that seemed to get some positive feedback. So, I thought I'd propose it here.

How about a friendly charart contest? Everyone could customize the best/most creative charart they can think of and upload it (on their personal image file, of course) to see who can make the best. I can't think of anything that could be used as a prize except recognition of excellence/awesomeness from the project.

Does anyone else think this would be a good idea? It could be fun. If anyone can think of a way to improve the contest, maybe by proposing a theme we all have to stick to, that'd be great. 03:51, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

That'd be super fun! Even though I'd epically fail! Lovely idea. I'm in. 04:10, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I'm definitely in, and I have some ideas. Maybe we could have two rounds: one for apprentices and one for warriors and leads, because I don't think it would be fair to have a new apprentice competing against the leads (who are all amazing at chararts). Also, for a theme we could use Christmas. I know it's still a month away, but there's already tons of adverts in shops and there's lots of room for the imagination to go wild, so I think it would be good. 09:02, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I think this would be awesome! I do agree with Specklestream, there should be two rounds. Leopard claw  Look up  to the past…  09:12, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Hey, I love this idea!!! Leaf-storm,11:40,November 5,2011 (UTC)

Yes! 11:50, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

But what would we do about the inactive apprentices? Just remove them? 12:01, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

We could have everybody who wants to do it sign up. Then we would know the numbers and we wouldn't have to worry about inactive apprentices. 12:25, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I'm in for sure! 12:49, November 5, 2011 (UTC) Shadewing

Interesting idea, and it wouldn't be taking up space, since the users participating would be uploading over their personal image file. ;) Christmas sounds like a good idea too. Hmm.... Hopefully this doesn't cause clutter... 13:33, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Great idea! I like the idea about the two rounds thing. ;) M is    t y pe bb le   ♪Goo d day♪ just go with |undefined the flow   14:22, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not good at Christmas stuff. :'( But oh well. If you guys wanna do it, I'm in for it. And yeah, two rounds is good. 14:25, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I think we'd be better off with a more PC theme that everyone could get in on.... hmm, how about just seasons? We could have a two-tiered contest with four categories at first (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter) and we pick the best from each category to go on to the final round in which they will have to make another charart to fit a new category? I agree with the separation of apprentices from warriors and leads, so we'll be having two separate contests with two winners in the end. I won't be entering, as I intend to be one of the judges. I'm so glad everyone likes this idea! As soon as we get the go ahead from either Scarletwind or Iceheart, the contest will be on, so don't start uploading chararts on your personal images for the contest in the meantime. Until then, though, if you want to enter just leave me a message on my talk page that includes your rank in the project. 14:41, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

This is a great idea! And how about instead of doing it on here, why don't one of the leads create a subpage (under their name of course) where we can have the images displayed? If we do that, I'd be happy to host it :) 15:02, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

That's an awesome idea! Thanks, Oblivion. 15:05, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yay, seasons! :) Tell us when the subpage is created. So where would a signup thing be? If we make a thing for the signup we should have sections for each season for people to sign up on. 16:07, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Love this idea. Warning you now, mine isn't gonna be very good! 16:24, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Just go sign up here! ^^ 16:26, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Great idea, Shellheart <3 This sounds like fun. (just a note to the leads - don't archive this discussion as I have it linked on the mainpage's news) 20:21 Sat Nov 5

Are we allowed to put things in the background on our image? Sky- VoldemortxMcGonagall  ftw! 00:18, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. 00:31, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I swear you're an idea stealer! I told Cloudy I thought a charat competition would be cool! DX Naw it's alright, you know I like to tease! I'm glad to see that a lot of people are entering. I already have a good idea, but can you put multiple cats in it? 05:07, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

When does the first round start? -- 13:39, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I'm so in. Lemme know when it starts! ~Regifloat222 Riverstar, Leader of the Thunder Snipes! 17:23, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

'''The first round is on! Go here to make your submission!'''

Am I still allowed to sign up? I missed the conversation. 09:30, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Of course you're allowed to sign up. 20:13, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, yay! I love this idea. 04:49, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Okay Im seeing alot of people uploading on seprate files. Unless I misread it or somethin', your supposed to upload it over personal image, right? - 01:22, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yep, you're supposed to upload it over your personal image. 05:59, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Shading Placement
I understand that this might not concern some people, but I've seen several charart tutorials and most of them have a section on shading placement. It kind of bothers me that there are different images on the shading placement, that have different places where the shading is put. I understand all the light source thing, but I think it would be less confusing if we narrow the different images of shading placement down to one, shown on all the different tutorials. That way, if we all follow the one shading placement image, when it's gone up for approval there hopefully houldn't be any comments on "Move the shading on the midriff closer to the middle" or whatever it is? Ideas? 06:27, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

We don't HAVE to use what's on the guidelines.... I don't. In fact, I've never used the shading redlines or anything of the sort. Each artist has their own style, and the guidelines are there for the basic placement. Actually, I don't use a light source, either. xD 06:29, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

But to avoid comments like center the shading on the face more, wouldn't it be good if we just kept one of the guiding images? I'm not saying that we have to use it, just so the artists can get a pretty good idea of where the shading should go. Also is there a highlight placement image? I've never come across one. 06:49, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

The only shading tutorial I've ever even looked at is the one on Nightshine's tutorial, which is here. As for a highlight one, I wouldn't know, because I don't use those either. 06:59, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: Found one for you. Look here, on Ivystripe's awesome tutorial. XD 07:03, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Nvm^^. I read it wrong. 07:04, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

We can't tell people how to set up shading. What would the point of that be? We chan suggest that they make their shading more logical looking, but as long as it fulfills its purpose (making the image look more three dimensional by showing the contours of the body) there's no reason a member can't put the shading where they please. 12:44, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

I understand that's fair enough. But for example, what if someone isn'y sure about a light source, or what it should look like. I'm not talking about anyone in specific here, but most people know what a light source is. I've seen some comments on other's chararts, saying move the highlights/shading there. I also realised this happens mainly for hightlights, and I think in tutorials we need to be more specific abotu about where hightlights should go. 05:25, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Have we come to a conclusion on this topic? 23:34, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so. I think DJCandyBud (can I just call you DJ? DJCandyBud is a mouthful :P) is partially right. We should have to have a light source for shading, 'cause otherwise shading is useless and just doesn't make sense. We don't need to follow one particular shading tutorial, like Nightshine's, but we should always have a light source. I don't know how to fulfill my own requirements, however. We could put up redlines for all possible shading styles, but that just seems ridiculously time-consuming and would take up way too much space on the tutorials. I don't know what to do. Answers? 00:28 Tue Nov 15

If we were to put up redlines, that would take forever. I know for a fact I don't shade like the rest of you. I would be of no use to this, for a few reasons. I don't have the patience for something like this. Highlights are stupid, and contrary to popular demand, I do not use a light source. I don't think you need it, because if you can make it look 3D without one, who needs it? =P 18:28, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Redoing Images?
Okay, FEEL FREE to COMPLETELY disagree with me. But anyways, I'm starting not to like the rule, when someone redos an image, they have to do the rest of the character's images. I know it's a fine idea and all, but people sometimes don't follow that rule, and the images turns out fine. People actually don't follow that rule quite often. Besides, without the rule, it would give more warriors a chance to tweak an image. Bottom line, I'm not so happy with this rule, and there are so many rules in PCA. 01:13, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I might not be a warrior but when I am one, that is one rule we can do with out. I just want to tweak charart's so i know how to do those certain types of cats, like white's or tabbies or torties, and others. I don't want to have to follow taht because that limits the amout of charart's you can tweak and i find it unfair. Rain face &lt;3 01:16, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

To me, if you can copy the other artist's stripes or markings, you're fine. The user who has done the first image shouldn't have the act to focus on everything else. If you can copy, then do it, in my opinion. 01:24, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

How about asking permission from the person first before redoing an image that they were supposed to? (kinda like redoing an image & asking a lead) That way people wont bring the rule up when this occurs - 01:27, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I did that with Wildheart. I don't like this rule either, and we aren't exactly following it at the moment. Since it was created, we've violated it at least 10 times. 01:40, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I still like the idea, but maybe not make it so much a rule but more a basic good idea. So maybe, say that it's a good idea but not an actual rule. Other users would be given the chance to do characters that have been started by other users. i.e. Say I did Firestar's leader again but Stoneclaw decided to try his warrior. That'd be fine, but if the charart becomes to difficult, the other artist could be asked to do it since it only takes about 2-5 days to get approved. Thoughts? - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 01:47, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I can see what you guys mean, but, this is in place too to prevent a person from redoing an image then not doing the rest. Take me doing Goldenflower for example. I did a very complicated tabby pattern for her. Now, if I had just left it, maybe somebody else might do her queen. But they get frustrated because 1) they don't have her base colors and/or 2) It's too complicated for them to perfect. Also, I would have been kind of frustrated with someone doing one of her images because I knew exactly how her stripes were supposed to look on both sides of her, and that's something else to take into consideration. I'm not saying we have to stick to the rule, but I do rather like it. I do like the idea of it being a guideline, but fights could break out if, say, I did Goldenflower's warrior, then somebody did Goldenflower's kit, and I had wanted to do all of her images and there was nothing to say who was right. 01:58, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I like Scarletwind's idea. So (another example) lets say I for some reason re-did my first image, Skyheart, and all of the other images had to be redone. Someone could as me if I could do one of the other images, and I'd reply either yes or no. If no one ever asked me if I could do one of the other images, then I'd automatically do it. How's that? I am terrible at explaining things, so if that was difficult to comprehend then tell me. 02:43, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Ivystripe and Scarletwind. I think that the rule should stay, because the artist who did one rank knows the style and has the colors, but if someone askes if they can re-do the image, the one who was re-doing all the other images had to reply a yes or a no. If they say yes, and the one now doing the rank with permission finds it too difficult, the original artist doing all the ranks can take over. 05:32, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if I like the idea of it being a rule, I think I like it being an idea. What do you guys think about this? 05:54, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think an idea is better than a rule. 05:31, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Scarletwind. 05:12, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I like Scarletwind's idea as well. 20:34, November 14, 2011 (UTC) Shadewing

Alts
In CoTC, Boulder is a blue-gray tabby, Onestar is a brown tabby with white stripes, Willowshine is a sliver or pale gray she cat, Echosong is a gray tabby with a white muzzle and chest, do these get alts? If yes may I do Boulder or Onestar? Also Leafpool was in a two leg den if Willowbreeze gets one, should Leafpool? 19:26, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Leafpool was in a den? Or was it in a garage or something like that. 20:54, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

They called the cages dens. ~Breezewhisker~ 21:00, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I knew that. I meant what type of structure the cages which the cats were in, were in. xD 21:07, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Echosong has the same description as her current charart. And with Boulder and Willowpaw, those are almost just the same descriptions. I would say that only Onestar gets one, in my opinion. (and possibly Leafpool) M is    t y pe bb le   ♪Goo d day♪ just go with |undefined the flow   02:10, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I believe Leafpool (and any other cat in the twoleg den/cages) should get one, but that's just my opinion. =3 02:13, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, Leafpool should get one for kittypet I think. As well as, I think it was Brightheart, Cloudtail, Mistyfoot, and the other cats. 05:21, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

If Willowbreeze gets one, so do they^. 05:29, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Wait, wait, wait. Leafpool, Mistystar, and company were put in cages. Now, I don't know the situation with Willowbreeze, but didn't she actually go into a Twoleg house? The Clan cats were in cages, not kept as pets, and they never went into an actual human house. That's like saying any cat who even went inside a building (I'm talking Ravenpaw, every cat who's ever been in his barn) should get one. Doesn't that sound just a little ridiculous? 05:38, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Ravenpaw goes willingly, so that doesn't count. Mistystar and the others were taken against their will, and forced to live inside a twoleg truck. That's still considered a twoleg thing, therefore making them temporary kittypets. If you'd like, I'll explain my reasoning in the morning - I seem to have fallen a bit ill, and I can't gather my thoughts correctly. 05:41, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

So you're saying that because Ravenpaw went willingly, he doesn't get a kittypet. What about actual kittypets who are co-operative? I mean, you don't see Smudge trying to break out of his house. I still don't think we need all these unnecessary chararts. 05:44, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Clan cats who are taken unwillingly. The other kittypets like Smudge and Princess have nothing to do with this. They were forced to live the life of an unhappy kittypet (The Clan cats). If I remember correctly, they also had the chance to eat their food, too. Graystripe got a kittypet image, when in no way, shape or form did he consider himself a kittypet. 05:47, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

"A kittypet is the Clan cats' word for housecats, that Twolegs keep and care for.

Kittypets are looked after and pampered by Twolegs. They are plump and well-fed because Twolegs feed them several times daily with dry, tasteless pellets that look like rabbit droppings and soft slop, according to the Clan cats. They are soft-muscled and know very little about the arts of fighting and hunting (with notable exceptions). At a certain age, they are taken to be neutered or spayed by the veterinarian, who is otherwise known to the Clan cats as the Cutter. After this visit, they usually become lazy and have no desire to do much. {C}{C The life of a kittypet is scorned by Clan cats, and it is against the Warrior Code for a warrior to become a kittypet."

Does that sound like what happened to Leafpool, Mistystar, or even Willowbreeze? They certainly were not "pampered". As for Graystripe, if I remember correctly, he was actually taken care of by Twolegs. That being said, cats like Willowbreeze and even Leafstar should not have kittypet images. 05:53, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

But, the fact of the matter is they were taken. Against their will. If they're not with their Clan, then how are they considered Clan cats? Jeez, Mistystar even got a replacement. I told you I'd gather my reasonings in the morning, because right now, I'm pretty much useless. x.x;;

Sorry if I repeat anything that's been said already, I'm way too tired to read through this all, but first of all, I'm pretty sure if was like a trailer Leafpool and them were kept in. Second of all, Leafstar and Willowbreeze were taken, and actually kept as kittypets, whereas Leafpool and those cats were just captured in cages. So, no, I don't think Leafpool or any of those cats should get kittypet images, but I think Leafstar and Willowbreeze are fine. Just cause a cat's been in a house doesn't make them a kittypet. And I don't think Blouder should get an alt, it's probably just the lighting, but I think Onestar would, as he actually has a white muzzle, which is different from his description. As for Willowshine, that's pretty much her description already, she looks like a tabby to me. though the markings are faint, so I personally would say no, though others may disagree. And what's Echosong's description? I'm too tired (and lazy) to go look. :P I thought she WAS a gray tabby with white paws and muzzle? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  06:44, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not fully agreeing or disagreeing with the Leafpool thing. If we did make Leafpool and co. a kittypet charart, all these other cats would get kittypet chararts, and that would make a lot of work. But I'm almost sure that the clan cats said that Mistyfoot had been taken away by twolegs. Doesn't that meen that they were considered as kittypets at one stage?

As for the alts, I think Boulder might get one, since silver-gray and blue-gray are sort of different. Onestar should get an alt, and Willowshine might get one, only if it was pale gray. Echosong's description is the same as the cotc picture. 06:55, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

(DJ, you deleted my post. :P *had to copy it from the history and repost* Please be careful.) ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  07:01, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

If I might add, Silverstream is also a silver tabby like Boulder and she got a blue-grey tabby alt for being shown as such in Cats of the Clans. ~Breezewhisker~ 21:49, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

(Sorry Paleclaw, My bad) 07:59, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Apprenices
When the new apprentice blanks are approved, will the apprenices be put on the approval page or the tweak page? I'm thinking approval, but I'm not sure. Bluestar11796 19:47, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Probably tweak page because they are being redone. 20:25, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Tweak. We're not creating any new files, so each image is simply being redone. 20:26, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Wait. So do apprentices get to do any of them? 20:51, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Wait I thought Tweak Week was ending soonish?

I was wondering the same thing as Sweetflower. There's a lot of apprentice ones that'll need doing. ~Breezewhisker~ 21:01, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Only Warriors and leads can tweak, so you guys won't be able to do it. Oblivion just said. 21:06, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Where have you been, Sandstorm? Tweak Week is a full time thing now. 21:07, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Oops sorry fail. I never got the memo... 21:07, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Sweet, Breeze, any characters that don't have an apprentice image already (aka apprentice images on the Characters Needing Art List) may be done by apprentices. Other than that, warriors tweak the images on the new blanks. ;) 21:28, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Does that mean Warriors+ get to reserve them now for tweaks? M is   t y pe bb le   ♪Goo d day♪ just go with |undefined the flow   21:47, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Not now. Once they are approved. :3 21:52, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

No, Iceheart said that they're going on the approval page so everyone can do the new apprentice images. It'll let it get done faster than excluding the apprentices in the project would. 23:03, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I thought this discussion was brought up before, and I'm pretty sure it was going on the approval page. 05:24, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, we discussed this before (a couple times actually XD) and it was decided that apprentices could do them. I don't remember whether they were going up on the approval or tweak page, but I would think the approval. Iceheart and a few other leads said themselves that apprentices could do the images too, so you're good. :) ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  06:52, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I knew it xD. Iceheart told me before everyone could do them. And when I saw only Warriors + I'm just like Wha?! That's not right :D. So all better. Everone can do them, anywyas that's what I was told. 11:31, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

AWESOME! Can I do Bluestar's? If you couldn't tell by my username, she's my favorite, and I've been waiting since before I joined the project to do a charart for her. Bluestar11796 00:52, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah they're going to be up for grabs for everybody :3 Bluestar: if you can reserve her when the blanks are finished and we start posting new images, you can do her. 02:31 Tue Nov 15

Redoing images...
Hey, I know we have a rule that anyone that redoes an image has to redo all the images for that cat, but shouldn't it also be a rule that the user has to do the rest of the cat's images before redoing another cat's image? I mean, it wouldn't apply to just tweaking another cat's image, but to redo one image and then go to redo another cat's image means that one user can just quickly make it so that they have "dibs" on multiple cats when another user could be doing them. Personally, I think that makes the project run a bit slower as the extra images for that cat could be done rather quickly but just sit there waiting for the user that decided to redo one image and just moved on to another cat. Does anyone agree? 04:14, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

To clarify: basically, you'd have to redo all of the images for one cat before redoing another cat's. You could go tweak another image in you wanted, as tweaks don't require you to do every image on a page. 04:16, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I thought something similar. Yes, that makes sense and I like it. 04:24, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, cause someone could redo a lot of images, and have to redo all their ranks. 05:26, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I always found this rule silly to begin with. I mean, if you have to redo one image on a page whose two images already look different, it's not out of your ability to copy the other artist's style. Now, I know that if you can't do it you can't do it, but when Iceheart told me about this rule (because I had never had any indication about it before) I was completely baffled. Do we really think that our artists aren't good enough that they can't copy a charart? 05:41, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

The rule is stupid, albight a bit useful. Personally, I don't want it around. Say if someone's going to re-do Cloudtail's images (Not going to happen, but just an example), I'll be the first to admit, I'll snag his kittypet image if possible. I adore it, and if I had the chance to work on it, I would. It seems certain people think that we're unable to mimic another style. >.>;; 05:44, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I hate this rule too. I mean, what if we had it where the people who make new images for characters (say, a new kit or something) make all the images for that character from there on in? That would just be plain silly, and honestly, I don't see this as very much different than that. I mean, I would probably (along with a few other probably) redo the rest of the images for a character, but making it a rules just seems a bit unneeded. I think we should get rid of it, and it seems a few other people agree with me. :P Though, MAYBE we could make it so if the image isn't on the redo list, the person has to do the rest, but not if it is on the redo list? Cause then, it wouldn't really be completely necessary for the image to be redone, so the artist would have to take responsibility for making the rest of the images match? Though, like I said, personally I think we should just get rid of the rule altogether. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  06:58, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you guys are right. The reason I thought of the little add on up there was because I think of the rule as flawed as well. Dunno what they were thinking, my first charart for the project was Shellheart's elder image, and I copied the deputy image just fine. I could do the same on the redos. 12:33, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Mentoring
Now, before you say anything, I know this has been brought up before, but I truly do think this would be a good idea. I think we should have mentors for the apprentices. I mean, I remember when I was an apprentice, and I see the new apprentices these days, and I really do think it would be a helpful thing. And if we had them, we wouldn't have to give ALL the apprentices mentors, maybe only the ones who actually want one, and the ones who have been stalking here a while and know their way around wouldn't get one. And also, it wouldn't have to be

till they're Warriors, just till they get more comfortable with the project, and feel they'll be fine on their own. I mean, I know apprentices can always go to the warriors or leads for help, but it's not quite the same as having one specific person kinda showing you the ropes. Like I said, I know this has been brought up before, but I wouldn't be bringing it up again if I didn't think it'd be beneficial to the project. What do you guys think? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  07:10, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

This is a wonderful idea! I've been in this project fro 3 months, and personally I'm still confused on this! Think back to when you first joined. You probably needed help. Right? Most, if not all, new users need help. Well, because their new! I think it would make the project run smoother, instead of cluttering the talkpage with questions like "where does shding go?" if your not sure. This is very beneficial. 11:26, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I love this idea! I really wanna be a mentor. XD 12:56, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

As shocking as some may find it, I'd like to be a mentor as well. Some of the apprentices seem to be groping around in the dark at times, I'd like to help sort one out. 13:06, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we should have requirements to be a mentor though? Just to make sure that the apprentices get experienced mentors? Like, maybe we could make it the old image requirement for being a warrior before? What was it, 3-4 images? IDK, just a suggestion. And, I'd love to be a mentor too, yeah. XD ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  13:20, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

OMG! Would I be able to be a mentor? This is a great Idea! 15:34, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I would love to be a mentor, I think it would be great for the new users aswell. 16:00, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think we could put up a new board listing mentors and their apprentices, along with mentors without apprentices so users know who to ask for. 16:04, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, dear. This is a wonderful idea I think the requirements to be a mentor should be slightly higher then the warrior requirements, if you ask me. A mentor should be fairly good with chararts, as well a member of this project for a good amount of time. I'm not saying that they need to have as many as me (18), but they should maybe have...hmm... 4 approved, but also have done three or four tweaks/redos, and been a warrior for at least a month - that way they have a little bit of experience as a warrior, as well as have done multiple chararts. 18:28, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Good idea, oh Cloudy One. New warriors need to get a good footing in their positions, anyway, before trying to help anyone else. 18:33, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

It could be a good idea...? I think it would work like this: The mentor would ask the apprentice to make i.e. a shorthaired brown tabby warrior she-cat with blue eyes. Then the mentor would critique it. I don't know though, since the images might clutter... 18:40, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

SO has this started yet or not because I want a mentor. I suck at making chararts. xD Star shine ☾The Full Moon Awaits☽ 18:52, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

No, it's just an idea at the moment. But we're glad you're gung ho about the idea! :D 18:56, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea to me. Though it would be hard if the mentor and the apprentice used different programs, like on the one I use, I still can't find a way to smudge things. xD And also, I think anyone should be free to have a mentor. I would like one myself. Even though I am a warrior, I only just turned one (literally) and I still want a few helpful tips from more experienced users. M is   t y pe bb le   ♪Goo d day♪ just go with |undefined the flow   20:13, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I would love this idea. I remember talking to Mistystar awhile back about having PCA mentors, and we both liked the idea but with all the rules thought it would be impossible to get to. I'm up for supporting, if this came to a vote. 20:30, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I like this idea! Even if I probably can't be a mentor. :P 20:44, November 14, 2011 (UTC) Shadewing

Maybe we could make the apprentice upload their test image over their personal image, like what we're doing for the charart contest... I'll gladly support it, if we could find a way to make it work.. 21:56, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

This idea has got me stoked. Yes, yes, and yes. Ivy likes :3 I would love to mentor a new apprentice, I really enjoy people asking me for advice on how to do things. So many people would enjoy mentoring a user. Just wondering, I think it would be a good idea to use Photobucket or just email the mentor their image, the only reason the Photobucket idea wouldn't work is even though we'd be allowing the apprentices, people would think they could do it too and the Photobucket admins wouldn't know which ones are ok to erase, but it would be cool if we could get that to work. I think that if we feel a user is qualified to be a mentor (slightly more experienced warrior and leads), then we should ask them if they want to. It's not fair to force somebody if they can't be bothered or time contraints wouldn't allow for it. Same as apprentices, I'll use Thistleberry as an example. Thistleberry was already very skilled at pixil making when she put up her image and probably wouldn't be in need of a mentor unless that's the only kind of cat she could do (which I doubt). So we could ask the apprentices if they'd like a mentor. 22:06, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

YES. Hawkey was my mentor, and she teached me everything I know about chararts. In my days, apprentices had learned so much from their mentors and these days, apprentices are struggling pitfully with their lack of knowledge. Personally, I think this should go in place ASAP as the rest of the project agrees, but I support this idea. 23:41, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

This makes sense. Darkhallows had said that PCA had tried this once and it didn't work out, but from Icy just said, I'm willing to give it a try. I haven't seen Iceheart around for a while, so for now, I'm going to say yes, but I want the opinion of as many leads as possible. It might be good to set up according to which programs everyone uses since there seem to be a lot of people using GIMP. I use photoshop so I'm not sure how useful I'd be in mentoring. - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 23:46, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I'm neutral with this. One, how are we going to assign mentors? Just decide to give this user as a mentor to this user? I know not "liking" a mentor is remote, but occasionally people go on hiatuses. Often and unexpectedly do users go on a hiatus without knowing it. Another option for choosing mentors is to let the apprentices do it, but then it would become like a popularity contest. I do think this thought would help newer apprentices in PCA, but the problems are like the ones brought up in reviving the Adopt-A-User project. Answers? 00:00, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. We should definitely do this. I would be willing to be a mentor. And yes, we should assign mentors to apprentices according to the programs they use. As for setting this up, I think we should have a subpage (yes, I know, we already have a lot of subpages, but hear me out) where people can put applications and requests. It would keep things more organized and would minimize clutter on the discussion page. We could have an applications section with the criteria listed below the heading and then people can create new sections when they wish to become a mentor. Then we could have a request section with some details (obviously you don't have to have criteria to receive a mentor) and the same thing would go for creating new sections. I think we should assign mentors according to ranks, as well; for example, if a new warrior wished to receive a mentor, they might get a lead for a mentor instead of getting another new warrior. Obviously it wouldn't matter what rank of mentor you got if you were an apprentice looking for a mentor. As for Atelda's dilemma: the leads would approve the applications, and the leads would also assign mentors. I think mentors should be able to volunteer their services to mentor requests, and then the leads would approve it. If that makes any sense :3 Those are just the first few matters that jump out at me. Opinions? 00:12 Tue Nov 15

Also, if a request for a mentor doesn't receive any volunteer mentors, a lead would ask a prospective mentor and then assign them to the apprentice. (forgot to add that :P) 00:15 Tue Nov 15

Definitely. Also, I think Iceheart or Scarletwind should assign (if they're the ones assigning) the ones applying to another user's skills as well. Perhaps they need trouble with shading placement, blurring, light sources, ect. then their mentor would be excelled in that particular area, with of course the basic criteria. And, if someone asks another user to be their mentor, shouldn't we undergo approval from the leader or deputy (or even senior warriors, I don't know o.o) before doing so? It'd make sense. Maybe someone with excellent tabby and marking patterns that needed shading help went to someone who wasn't the best at shading, and was as well really awesome with markings. The leader and deputy should be on watch for these things. -- 00:20, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

All sounds good to me. :) I think we should have a list of all the warriors+ that are WILLING to be mentors, then assign accordingly. As has been stated before, some people simply don't have time to become mentors. And as for mentors going on trips or something, their apprentices can always go to another warrior temporarily if they need help on something during that time till their mentor gets back. And if the mentor goes on hiatus for a long period of time, they could just be assigned a new mentor. I like Wildy's idea of having people volunteer, then if nobody does, having a lead assign one. :) I'm glad everybody agrees that this would be helpful. ^^ I was worried since this has been brought up before the idea would just be shot down. :P ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  01:24, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Ya this sounds good to me. Since nobody is saying no ill just go ahead and make the subpage right now. 07:21, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

The subpage is here. Anything i should change? 07:59, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Looks perfect to me! ^^ great job on it. 8D *goes to apply as a mentor* Just a question, for the mentors, the leader and deputy will just approve it, right? It doesn't have to go through a vote like the nominations right? It's not really clearly stated. (at least that I can find) ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  11:46, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, actually I do have a suggestion. XD Could we have a list of the approved mentors? Just for references? ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  11:59, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking we should have a table of mentors and their apprentices on the main project page. 13:25, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Would I be able to get a mentor? I know that I am a warrior, but I feel as if My chararts are way behind all of the warriors. So can I get a mentor? 15:52, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

I would also like a mentor. I feel that if I got a mentor my chararts could excel. 16:14, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it was decided anyone could get a mentor if they want one, regardless of your rank, so yes Stoneclaw, I think you can. So both of you can go to the subpage and put in a request for a mentor then. :) ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕   ☆StarClan be with you★  17:08, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Here's another thing that's not clearly stated; How many apprentices can you have? Are we keeping it at just 1, or are we having more? Just wondering. ♔ⓅⓐⓁⓔⒸⓛⒶⓦ♕  ☆StarClan be with you★  01:59, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Imprisoned Kittypets
I recently made a comment on Gorsetail and Willowbreeze's kittypet images on the approval page, but I feel I may have judged too quickly. I'd like to see the general opinion of the project.

Should cats that have been captured and put into cages or boxes against their will be given kittypet images? I don't think being help by twolegs against ones will in an object that is not typically used to keep kittypets should mean that a cat was a kittypet, but that's just me. In my opinion, Leafstar and Cloudpaw, who were kept in twoleg homes and (in Leafstar and Birdpaw's case) called different names, should have kittypet images as they lived as kittypets.

It's an iffy subject a bit similar to the old queen debate. Any rebuttals? 18:43, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I thing theyre not "true" kittypets, Im saying, no! 18:50,November 14,2011 (UTC)

I gave up fighting that battle. Personally, I think if they were imprisoned in any type of Twoleg contraption, they should get one, but that's my opinion. However, if the others don't agree, I'm willing to scrap the belief. 18:55, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think they should get one because they were seen with a Twoleg, and captured by one. And I don't think names really matter… 20:26, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think they should. They were cared for by twolegs, so they aren't rogues or loners, and they weren't nessicarily part of the clan. 20:30, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well, they were in a Twoleg nest, but a small one. And twolegs were feeding them food, so, i think they should. Givingheartstar Enjoy :D  21:16, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think not. Even if they were kept in a cage or forcibly kept there, they never stopped calling or referring to themselves as warriors and such. Graystripe was kept away for such a long time, there really was no doubt that he was a kittypet for a while. Leafstar, she was a queen at the time and was never given a new name. Birdpaw was only gone about a day and same Willowbreeze. I don't think it should count in those cases. - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 22:18, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think I'm agreeing with Scarletwind's ideas here. If they were gone for almost as long as Graystripe, they'd get one, but for a day, I don't think so. 23:47, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I posted it up there, but has anyone cared to take a look at the kittypet article? It states that a kittypet is a "housecat, that Twolegs keep and care for". They are also described to be "looked after and pampered by Twolegs". I read Leafstar's article, and I changed my mind about the fact that she shouldn't have an image; she really should since she and her kits were looked after by the Twoleg. Now, Birdpaw should not have one. If I read correctly, she was never taken into the Twoleg's home, only given ointment and food. If she gets a kittypet image, so does any other SkyClan cat to have ever taken food from a Twoleg.

As for Leafstar Leafpool and company, they should not have kittypet images either, because they were not "pampered" by the Twolegs. They were kept as prisoners. 00:45, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Wait, Oblivion, you just contradicted yourself. You said tht Leafstar should get one, then you said she shouldn't... Did you mean Leafpool? 00:50, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, yes, Leafpool. Sorry about that ^^" 01:00, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

I agree completely with Shelly, Oblivion, and Scarlet's statements. 02:26 Tue Nov 15

Kay, so are we agreed? I think Birdpaw keeps a kittypet image, as she took food from, had a name given by, and was given medicine/cared for by a twoleg. Birdpaw's siblings as well, whenever we find out their genders. Leafstar as well, as she and her kits were cared for by the twoleg, kept in the house, and she ate kittypet food. Leafpool and the other cats captured and put into cages do not, as though they were fed I'd hardly call them cared for, as Coal was injured by one of the twolegs and it was most likely the cats were heading for a pound where eventually they would become kittypets, if they weren't put down first. Not sure about Willowbreeze, but it seems like she was caught, brought into a tent, and put in a box for entertainment. Doesn't seem like she was quite a kittypet yet. 02:32, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Let's wait until a couple more leads give assent, and then we can finalize this. As for Willowbreeze, I don't think she'd get one. 02:35 Tue Nov 15

Willowbreeze shouldn't get one. 02:39, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Willowbreeze shouldn't get one, I guess. However, Birdpaw, Sandypaw and Honeypaw do, along with Leafstar. The siblings because of what Shelly stated. Leafstar is sorta obvious. 02:51, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Birdpaw and siblings, and Leafstar should get one. Probally not Leafpool and co. though. This brings me to an idea, although I highly doubt it will be accepted. We could make prisoner blanks, for all cats kept in prison in another clan, etc. Ivypaw could get one if she was kept in prison by ShadowClan. As I said, I doubt this will work. Bleh. 08:31, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

It's a nice idea, but we only have blanks for ranks and such. Not sure how a prisoner blank would work, or even how we'd convey prisoner through a charart without it looking really silly. Sorry. ^^; 13:13, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

I not trying to be rude or snobby here, but is Willowbreeze going to be declined? If she is, I'm fine with it. -- 20:47, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Tigerstar Alt. Leader and Apprentice and Russetfur Alt. Deputy
Hey, in The Rise of Scourge, Tigerstar is shown to have a white muzzle, paws, and belly. Should he get an alt. for that? I mean, Russetfur got an alt. for having white, but otherwise the same. And in Return to the Clans, Russetfur is deputy, so, she got a warrior alt. for Into the Woods, she should get a deputy alt. image, as well. Don't you think? Bluestar11796 00:31, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Russetfur, yes. Tigerstar, I'd like to see what the others think of that one first. - Scarletwind  ✧ L i s a n n a ✧ 23:02, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

It depends on if he was shown on the cover, or if it was in the book. If it was in the book itself, I don't think so, because we don't know what color it was. 23:05, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, he was shown that way on the cover; look at the page. Bluestar11796 00:59, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

New blanks???
I saw the new apprentice blanks, and I was wondering if you're redoing all of the blanks? I can't be a full part of the project since I lack the time and resources needed for making charart, but I can help make new blanks if thats needed... 16:04, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

No, only the apprentices and medicine cat apprentices are getting new blanks. Thanks for your concern though, we appreciate your enthusiasm =) 16:07, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for clearing that up ^^  17:54, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

User:Kittycat79 - Re-join Request
I see I have been removed from the project due to inactivity. Sorry about that. Could I please be re-added? I've placed a request for a mentor and I'm currently looking for a Charart to do.- Kittycat79 <sup style="font-family;Arial;colour:Navyl">aka Rowantail 22:59, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

If you promise to stay active, I'll add you back in. =P 23:00, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Thx Cloudy. Also could you give me a link to the characters needing art list?- Kittycat79 <sup style="font-family;Arial;colour:Navyl">aka Rowantail 23:02, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Enjoy. 23:05, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks.- Kittycat79 <sup style="font-family;Arial;colour:Navyl">aka Rowantail 23:13, November 15, 2011 (UTC)