Mosskit as an accidental in Bluestar's Killed Victims
Bluefur made an active choose to endanger her kits by taking them through snowstorm, knowing the high possability of them freezing to death, even if she didn't want that outcome. Does this reach the Wiki's standards of being considered responable? There might also need to be consideration for Goosefeather, considering he ordered her to do in the first place. Mellowix (talk) 09:53, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
Goosefeather didn't order her. Also, do you have proof in which Bluefur acknowledged the fact that her kits might die? Because I do not remember that being in Bluestar's Prophecy at all. Regardless, I really think these lists are being taken way too far.. including Mosskit isn't appropriate in the least. Because otherwise, we may as well blame her for Stonefur's death too, since he may not have died had Bluefur not given her kits to Oakheart. —Jayce ( 15:01, 6/17/2020 )
Snowfur's death is entirely irrelevant to this debate. If the Wiki considered every character responable for another's death for simply suggesting a daily chore, there wouldn't be an end to it. Snowfur choose to go on patrol, she choose to rush onto the Thunderpath in a battle rage - That accident was on herself.
Anyway, Goosefeather did tell her to take the kits out of camp to their father - It was leafbare, had to do it in secret and he offered no help, as a Medcine cat's he'd know the risks of death:
Goosefeather: This was not part of the prophecy. Fire must burn without bonds.
Bluefur: “The prophecy can wait. My kits need me now.”
Goosefeather: “What about your Clan?” *Short irrevlent scene with kits annoying warriors* “If Thistleclaw becomes deputy, it will be the end of ThunderClan.”
Bluefur: “My kits need me"
Goosefeather: “They’re not just your kits. They have a father who would raise them.”
Bluefur:. “What do you mean?”
Goosefeather: “I saw you with Oakheart, near Fourtrees. I do not stand in judgment, Bluefur, You never set out to betray your Clan. But these kits will drown in blood with the rest of their Clanmates unless you act. You are still the fire that will scorch a different path for ThunderClan."
Secendly, it's never been a requirment for the "Killed Victims" list, for an aknowlegement of the death risks from the PoV. Lionblaze didn't aknowledge the risks when he grabbed Russetfur beforehand. Same goes for Greystripe and Whiteclaw, and Fireheart and Whitethroat. That's why it's considered accidental, because the character didn't know beforehand they'd cause a death.
Someone making an active choose to endager kits in a blizzard, seems to be a clear-cut chase of an accidental death. Mosskit didn't die purely of hyperthemia. The Blizzard didn't get through the Nursery's walls. Bluefur made an active choose to put her in that danger of hyperthemia in the first place. Mellowix (talk) 16:16, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
Mellowix, I said Stonefur, not Snowfur. As in, Bluestar's son??? Goosefeather still did not force Bluestar to give up her kits; it was suggested, but he definitely didn't force Bluestar to do anything. I really don't like how it seems that you're forcing us to add this, or change our minds, just because we disagree. —Jayce ( 00:41, 6/18/2020 )
This not good conduct, stay on topic on the fictional books we're diccusssing please. Don't stoop to unnecessary personally critque somone - Using the word "forcing" is being used way too prematurely. I literally given you one reply. The whole point of this page is debate on what should be considered canon or not. Expanding on my points and providing evidence to support it should considered be a good thng. Mellowix (talk) 08:05, June 18, 2020 (UTC)
I am on-topic. =\ You used the wrong cat in your example and I was correcting you. I have the right to say "you misread my comment". You don't get to patronize me all because you made the topic. And I'm still not seeing any real evidence that Goosefeather forced Bluefur to give up her kits. That quote does not say "you need to give them away".
Nor do I see any real purpose why Mosskit should be listed. These lists and what they have are being taken way too far and out of context. Plain and simple. This is my opinion. and no, it's not "what should be considered canon", it's to discuss content that should be used in character articles. —Jayce ( 15:07, 6/18/2020 )
If anything this is only an indirect killing, which I wouldn't be too against. Yes, Bluestar did bring her kits out into the cold, thereby exposing them to this risk of dying via hypothermia. It did indirectly cause Mosskit's death. However, Goosefeather is reaching and I am absolutely against listing that. ♥Star♥ bisexually me, mon amour<17:50, 7/01/2020>
Juniperkit & Dandelionkit's descriptions
So with the Warriors website tree update, Juniperkit and Dandelionkit were given descriptions. This is the first instance of a description being given for the pair of them, save for off-hand fur descriptions. However, seeing as we take the website family tree as non-canon, what do we do for these two - and, for future/past characters that fit into the same category of having no "canon" description.
I personally wouldn't be opposed to listing them the description, but, perhaps having some sort of note alongside the source? Just so that it is clear where the information coming from (even though I guess that's what the cite would do - I guess what I'm describing is more of a disclaimer notice?). Thoughts? — eilish ゴジラ (00:54, 19/6/2020)
That's actually a really great idea! Adding it along with a note would make perfect sense; I completely agree with you. This could go with other cats like Molepaw, Hopekit, and Wishkit. --Summerflower Cool for the Summer 00:58, June 19, 2020 (UTC)
My two cents is that since it was decided that the tree was not canon, then all of it should be considered non-canon. While this could lead to a discussion reevaluating the tree's canonicity, PC's current stance is to throw everything in the continuity section as non-canon. The only characters that come to mind are those who's overall legitimacy is questioned anyway, such as Jessamy and Willownose. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 11:34, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
Jessamy was mentioned in the Warriors app, and that in and of itself is canon. It being rendered defunct doesn't mean the information still isn't valid. She was mentioned in the series, we just didn't have a name for her. —Jayce ( 16:10, 6/23/2020 )
I agree with adding it in but also having a note besides it--after all the tree still exists and we still do include the tree on the wiki, just in a separate section. ♥Star♥ bisexually me, mon amour<17:49, 6/23/2020>
God I'm bad at words lol. Just strictly from the books, all we have about Jessamy is an indirect mention from Sharpclaw and an indirect mention from Mapleshade/Reedshine for Willownose & co. More along the lines of "they existed." Other than that, they would probably be shoved on the minor characters page since they wouldn't have official names. The letter and app provide them names, and thus a reason for having a page. While they are canon cites, they can arguably be questionable sources (all we have is an image of said letter and screenshots of an app that only works on prior versions of IOS - if we had a canon hierarchy, I'd put them lower on the list for those reasons but that last part is just my personal opinion). To which that I was referring to their "overall legitmacy" with the names; they are canon but like an "ehhh" kind of canon if that makes any sense.
Without the existence of the tree, we wouldn't have their descriptions (or know who is Shellheart's mom), which is what this discussion is about. The descriptions remain on those pages because the other cites are questionable anyway, and I was honestly unsure what to do with those pages anyway when I went around purging everything. However, Juniperkit and Dandelionkit are strictly confirmed in the books; names, genders, age, afterlife residencies, etc. And if we added their descriptions from the family tree, it would be the first instance that I know of where we would be combining something we as a project have decided as non-canon with heavily canon sources. Unless, of course, we reevaluate the tree's canonicity.
As stated above, I agree with the idea of reevaluating the tree's validity due to the apparent effort the website is making to keep it updated and reflective of something official. — eilish ゴジラ (23:38, 27/6/2020)
I've been thinking and thought it would be worth mentioning in a discussion. Blackstar's artwork had been more updated recently (A Shadow in RiverClan and his novella art), with it showing him with black ears more frequently. And if you count the number of artwork with him being shown with black ears, it counts more than the artwork with him not shown with black ears. https://ibb.co/k8bJNrW Any thoughts if black ears should be added to his description? Juniperclaw (talk) 22:22, June 30, 2020 (UTC)