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Clear Sky and One Eye plus One Eye's camp?

Me and Patch were talking as we were re-reading the Blazing Star and came upon that Clear Sky was forced to be driven out by One Eye and his rogues. Plus none of Clear Sky's cats joined him, only Sparrow Fur. However, this brings a discussion where would One Eye succeed Clear Sky unofficially, and this is the same situation where Darktail forces Rowanstar out and unofficially becomes leader of ShadowClan and his rogues before becoming the Kin. Then once One Eye was killed, Clear Sky took back his camp and became leader again. When Clear Sky was staying at Tall Shadow's camp, many cats referred to Clear Sky's cats as One Eye's rogues and cats. It's not Clear Sky's camp.. but would it count as One Eye's group or camp? Me and Patch want to see what other people's thoughts or comments on this.

Also, I'd like to bring up that when Thunder was born, he was basically a rogue, and not a Clan cat yet. It even states in the Blazing Star, too. Not get the image, but would he get the past thing? Needletail 🐾^#Litten 02:34, May 11, 2018 (UTC)

I support this idea. Even if isn't official, One Eye did force his way to leadership is Clear Sky's camp. Most of the cats remained in the camp as One Eye took over, and like Cosmo said, they are referred to as "One Eye's cats" so I think it would count as a group, even if it was only for a short period of time. Clear Sky came and took back the leadership of the group, after One Eye had been leading it, so I believe it should be added that One Eye succeeded Clear Sky, and Clear Sky later succeeds One Eye.

As for Thunder's case, I also agree with because he was not part of any group while he was young living with his mother, Storm, so I'd think that'd be listed as a past affiliation. —Patchfeather^{Hangar 18, I know too much} 02:46, May 11, 2018 (UTC)

imo it would be camp since it was an established area, and its not even unofficial, it was him taking clear skys camp.

clear skys cats also do stay with him, even if unwillingly, and those cats that were forced to be with the kin still have the affie (even if its with a note explaining theyre prisoners). my question is if they would be considered rogues and get a listing for the time during they were one eye's cats or no? david ^🌈 07:09, May 11, 2018 (UTC)

I guess camp since you explained it better, aha.

That brings another good question now.. would they? They are me ruined to be One Eye's rogues lots of times in the blazing star... Needletail 🐾^#Litten 10:30, May 11, 2018 (UTC)

They should get those cites, I believe. Whether they wanted it or not, it defined them for a time. —Jay^{I hope they remember you....ϟ} 01:08, 5/12/2018

Are Birch and Alder old enough to be considered "rogues"? Like if we agreed with the One Eye's Camp. And then the leader's unofficial leader succeeding/preceding for Rowan/dark and one eye/clear sky, and then thunder with the rogue affie? Needletail 🐾^#Litten 01:29, May 12, 2018 (UTC)

They were kits iirc, so no. Not really. —Jay^{I hope they remember you....ϟ} 01:30, 5/12/2018

One Eye never officially leads Clear Sky's camp, though. Just like Darktail never officially led ShadowClan, so if we do not have one for Darktail and ShadowClan, why One Eye and Clear Sky? Appledash ^{the light of honor} 02:38, May 12, 2018 (UTC)

darktail didn't lead shadowclan because it only existed via rowanstar, tawnypelt, and tigerheart at that point. shattered sky even confirms that. (which brings up another issue of why he and others have sc affie if that's so....) as far as I can tell one eye even says he "took the leadership" out of clear sky's paws, clear sky says "one eye has taken over my camp", and it outright says "one eye's camp" on another page. whether that's enough to say he was leader after clear sky or even enough for it's own page, I don't know, but there's some evidence regardless. david ^🌈 23:02, May 13, 2018 (UTC)

Because most of the ShadowClan cats who were under Darktail's ruling in the early days did still consider themselves ShadowClan, so that's where that cite comes from. Also, if they called it "One Eye's camp", then it's pretty safe to say he took over. —Jayce(23:59, 5/13/2018)

One Eye did take over Clear Sky's camp for a while until he was killed. Same with Darktail- he took over ShadowClan before they turned into the Kin. Needletail 🐾^#Litten 00:18, May 15, 2018 (UTC)

Any more comments? Appledash ^{the light of honor} 01:32, May 23, 2018 (UTC)

Is there a clear conclusion? I cannot see one. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 02:15, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

I think the conclusion is: -Thunder gets the rogue past affie as he was a kit. -Clear Sky is succeeded by One Eye where all of Clear Sky's cats become One Eye's cAts to where the camp is now called One Eye's Camp where they're rogues and have past affies of it. Then is succeeded by cleR Sky once more. -Rowanstar unofficially is succeeded by Darktail and then is then succeeded by Rowanstar again. Same with Clear Sky and One Eye. -all of Clear sky's cat are considered rogues or get that catergory. Needletail🐾^{The crazycatlady} 02:39, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

The two first statements completely contradict each other. Thunder was never a rogue - he was a kit, he was too young to be a rogue. And all of Clear Sky's cats joined Gray Wing's group if I recalled. None of them turned rogues. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 03:37, May 29, 2018 (UTC)

Thunder is a rogue by birth, and therefore gets the listing in his article as a past affiliation, because of his mother. That listing does not warrant a charart, due to him being a kit. He already has a rogue listing due to a mistaken mention in Secrets of the Clans, I believe. The rogue listing in and of itself for said field guide is a mistake (unless there's other stuff I'm missing here), due to us having information that contradicts that. —Jayce(03:46, 5/29/2018)

Was just about to say that lol. And only Sparrow Fur and Clear Sky ledt. The rest of his cats stayed. Needletail🐾^{The crazycatlady} 03:48, May 29, 2018 (UTC)

Bump? Needletail🐾^{The crazycatlady} 02:01, June 2, 2018 (UTC)

Template for redirect

Looking at redirect pages, there is no consistency with the way they are written. To be professional, I believe that we should have a template, or at least a guide, to write redirects so that they are all consistent with one another. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 14:13, May 17, 2018 (UTC)

I agree^^ I'd think a template could be made for this fairly easily, but we could also do a guide. Consistency ftw —spooky ^{is that... a furry cat?!?} 17:25, 5/17/2018

A guide is a nice idea. —Jay^{I hope they remember you....ϟ} 18:07, 5/18/2018

Any more comments? Appledash ^{the light of honor} 02:15, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

Apprenticeship in the camps

Some cats in the camps are being trained by others. For example, Reed Tail trains Dust Muzzle and Moth Flight techniques, or Eagle Feather and Mouse Ear, or Black Ear and Spotted Fur. The cats that were in Slash's camp probably doesn't count or they could say unofficial mentor or remove the cite overall. Should we cites count as the trainee to be an apprentice? Like Dew Petal teaching Honey Pelt? Or Cloud Spots mentoring Ember for a short while. Medicine cats like Pebble Heart or Acorn Fur got the mca, and Micah and Reed Tail were trained, too, but would they get the mca? Pebble Heart was approved and Acorn Fur a while back. Thoughts? Needletail 🐾^#Litten 23:34, May 20, 2018 (UTC)

The only cat I can think this remotely passes for is Pebble Heart. But I fervently disagree with everyone else - none of them were ever "apprentices." Appledash ^{the light of honor} 02:02, May 21, 2018 (UTC)

Pebble Heart and Acorn Fur, imo. Acorn Fur was very clearly learning from Micah in a traditional mentor/apprentice way. Other than that, I don't think sharing knowledge and whatnot really counts. —Jayce(02:04, 5/21/2018)

I'm not sure they should count. Pebble Heart and Acorn Fur certainly would, as MCAs. A lot of these were before Clans were a thing, hence why cats like Snail Shell already have it but these don't - because they weren't actually apprentices. —spooky ^{is that... a furry cat?!?} 02:42, 5/23/2018

Any more comments? Appledash ^{the light of honor} 02:21, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

Summaries (Again)

I would really like some comments on this, whether you disagree or agree, because this just keeps getting archived with no clear conclusion. Can we please discuss writing some summaries, after a cat's description? Say someone does not want to read the entire history, just wants a quick snippet of the character - can we work for each major character, and each supporting one, a little overview of what their personality is, their events in the book, etc? Appledash ^{the light of honor} 03:16, May 21, 2018 (UTC)

Until we can chop down on PC's concerns list more, I personally have to disagree. While it's a nice idea that would totally work in the future, I don't think we should start a project of this caliber when we already have so much to do - and to divide the attention of those few writing sections consistently - would only intensify the problem of falling behind on histories. I'd be in support of this idea probably around... the gap after AVoS because we'll most likely have a break then, since it is a good concept, but it's one I don't believe we have the capaility to see all the way through right now. —spooky ^{is that... a furry cat?!?} 12:01, 5/21/2018

Your point is valid, which is why I am not suggesting we do all of it at once. It is just an option to have so if by chance anyone wants to do a quick summary, the option is available as PC would have agreed on it. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 12:04, May 21, 2018 (UTC)

This is a great idea. —Jay^{I hope they remember you....ϟ} 18:28, 5/21/2018

Any more comments? Appledash ^{the light of honor} 02:21, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

I actually disagree with Spooky; I am strongly in support of writing character summaries. If anything, I think that being behind on articles might be even more of a reason to write article summaries; there are a lot of major characters like Violetshine or Windstar which have sections of their histories that are understandably not filled in because they appear so many times. I think that, especially since the histories are incomplete, a short summary for these major characters would be good so that readers know what they did in the series. Often the most important characters don't have their book histories written because they do so much in the book that it takes a long time to write, but if I have the same idea of a summary as Icy does, then these summaries could be written relatively quickly. Also, to be honest, I think it will be a long time before all of the detailed histories are finished for all the characters, so I don't think we should wait until they are all completed. 🏵️ Maple 🏵️ 18:56 Wed Jun 13

Past Affies

Okay- some past affies are correct and stuff, or count as a past affie, but there are some that should be discussed/or count maybe. Depends on how we see it or view g? The apprentices in SkyClan such as Plumwillow and her siblings, etc taking Kittypet food. They got the affie but really never joined them. I guess Pebble Heart and his siblings he wouldn't count as they were never really official kittypets, just stolen. Birdwing could count? But Leafstar and her kits count as they stayed there for more than a day. I'd say we could count affies if a cat stayed somewhere for more than a day? Such as Stormfur, Feathertail, Violetshine(when she was in ThunderClan). I also think that Twigpaw should get the ShadowClan temp past affie as she stayed in ShadowClan for more than a day, but was kidnapped and still stayed there. This counts for Leadpool as she did help train cats and stayed there more than a day or two. Quiet Rain I think should get an affie of Tall Shadow's Camp as she did stay there for a while before dying. We see this as Clear Sky after he lost his camp for a while to zone Rye and Grey Wing going to River Ripple's camp for more than a day. I guess what I'm trying to explain is- which affies should count and which should not depending on the situation. Also when Twigpaw left ThunderClan- is she considered a loner? Or just stilly ThunderClan -as stated in SS- it took more than 2 weeks for her to find SkyClan. And when Firestar and Sandstorm left thunder to find skyclan- they were probably loners if we count it as they /left/. Also with Tallstar being a Kittypet- he stayed there for a while and was helped by the Twolegs. We don't count Willowbreeze as she unofficially never stayed there for more than a day. Cloudpaw was caught for more than moon- so he counts as a Kittypet as an apprentice. Sorry this is confusing or something- but I think it needs to be discussed with what counts and what doesn't- even if it's temp or not. Needletail 🐾^#Litten 01:01, May 24, 2018 (UTC)

I agree that Twigbranch's should count. Quiet Rain's, too. —Jay^{I hope they remember you....ϟ} 01:12, 5/24/2018

I do not think cats that are kidnapped should count. That would be like making Ivypool ShadowClan, since ShadowClan kept her for a bit. And if cats leave their Clans to find others, that does not make them a loner - in that case, Firestar and Sandstorm and every questing cat ever would become a loner. I do not think they were loners, they had no plans on leaving their Clan forever, they knew they would come back and it was just for a mission. Cloudpaw I think can maybe count as a kittypet for a bit, but I also do not think any cat kidnapped and stayed against their will counts as "part of the Clan," or wherever they were taken. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 02:17, May 24, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with pretty much everything brought up here, but I'm siding with Icy on the kidnapped thing and questing cats. Sandstorm and Firestar were still ThunderClan cats, they never offically left, just left their territores for a bit, but they were always ThunderClan. Kidnapped cats I don't think should count either because it's basically the same thing with questing cats, they never left their Clan, they're being forced to stay against their will, but they're still said Clans cats. Now for Stormfur, Feathertail, and Violetshine, i think that's fine, they were living in that Clan for a bit, same goes for Quiet Rain, and yeah, Pebbleheart and his siblings probably won't count. Same thing applies for Twigpaw in the FireSand one. Now Plumwillow and her siblings, I don't quite remember the situation they were in so I don't have much comment on that :P I think Birdwing would count, if I'm remembering what happened to her correctly. —Patchfeather^{Hangar 18, I know too much} 02:34, May 24, 2018 (UTC)

Only cats held against their will that should count are Kin prisoners imo, since the whole oath thing etc. otherwise, they shouldn't get it unless it was for a very significant amount of time. I also think that Plumwillow and co's KP cite some need to be removed - they weren't actually kittypets and just took the food. If we counted all the cats who've been mentioned to have had kittypet food we'd have to add HJ apprentices, MO, Needlepaw, ones and many more, which really isn't accurate because they're not actually kittypets. —spooky ^{is that... a furry cat?!?} 03:08, 5/24/2018

Taking back what I said, cats taken as prisoners should not count. —Jay^{I hope they remember you....ϟ} 16:44, 5/27/2018

I do agree that cats held against their will shouldn't get it, but maybe unofficially since they did stay there. Another example I found was Fritz. He was a Kittypet who was held in BloodClan for more than a moon. But I still don't know. And what about the kittens for the skyclan apprentices? I think they should be removed except for Birdwing. sandynose was already a Kittypet in HJ as he was taken so that stays, but the rest could go. Needletail🐾^{The crazycatlady} 17:16, May 27, 2018 (UTC)

The SkyClan cats should very much count. They took food multiple times, hid it from their Clanmates, and broke the code. If it was a one-off thing, then sure, but this was not and they took food many times, and Birdwing even got treatment. Fritz was held prisoner, and the reason Darktail's prisoners counted is because Darktail forced them to take "an oath". —Jayce(00:02, 5/28/2018)

I disagree with the SkyClan cats being called kitty pets. The definition of kittypet is a domestic cat that lives with Twolegs, and these cats never officially lived with Twolegs. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 09:57, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

I have to agree with icy. a feral cat taking food from humans does not a kittypet make, plus they were still clearly aligned with skyclan. otherwise we may as well give kittypet images to duskpaw, hollowflight, rushtail, and whoever has ever taken food from a twoleg at some stage. david ^🌈 11:34, May 28, 2018 (UTC)

Any more comments? Appledash ^{the light of honor} 00:17, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

one more question, what about cats like the group in tnp, where they left and came back, but everyone had thought they had abandoned their clans? david ^🌈 00:24, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Still, I do not think they count as rogues or loners. They did not plan on leaving their Clan permanently, while others, like Leafpool and Crowfeather, did. They were still Clan cats. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 00:30, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

July FA

Might as well put this up. Can't think of one right now, what are your suggestions? ♥ Star _{red and black ♥}<17:36, 6/09/2018>

Maybe Alderheart or Puddleshine? If Puddleshine, I'd assume his TaS section will need to be completed. —Patchfeather^{Hangar 18, I know too much} 17:41, June 9, 2018 (UTC)

we can do Alderheart since his page is finished, and probably save Puddleshine for August? madie ^{the wicked witch of the west}

Well, Alderheart is not silver right now... may need to wait until the vote passes. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 00:16, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

How about Fierce? And then Alderheart should be done by next month, if we wanna wait until then. —spooky ^{is that... a furry cat?!?} 21:42, 6/11/2018

Alderheart's silver nomination has passed. Do we want to keep him as our suggestion for July's FA? Appledash ^{the light of honor} 05:07, June 15, 2018 (UTC)

Unnamed residence cats

Since Needletail said that all the cats in purgatory went to StarClan, would that include Spikefur? He was in there Tree sensed him, which was chapter 5. And when Needletail told Alderheart that they went to StarClan when they gave the message to them, which was in chapter 6. I'm wondering if he would be in StarClan as well, or still in the unknown residence.—Hrafnsmál ^{The raven's call} 00:20, June 10, 2018 (UTC)

Did Needletail say "they all went to StarClan?" If "all" is there, I think Spikefur would be included. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 00:17, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

no, I don't think so. it said "once we had delivered our message" and spikefur was not included in that group. david ^🌈 00:19, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Her exact quote is "Yes. Once we had delivered our message, we were able to move on to join StarClan."

"We" may refer to all of the unnamed residence cats, but it could also refer to the ones that died at the lake. I'm unsure. —Hrafnsmál ^{The raven's call} 00:20, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

it seemed pretty clear that it was the cats who surfaced from the lake in that one scene....which he wasn't a part of. he might not even have been dead then, since he joined the remnants of the kin for a while before he died. david ^🌈 23:11, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

If he is not stated specifically it probably should not be included. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 00:42, June 14, 2018 (UTC)

Spottedleaf

Spottedleaf was killed by Clawface as it says on her page on the "Cause of Death" section. Then I remembered her spirit was killed by Mapleshade so I had an idea that I could add under "Killed by Clawface" "Spirit killed by Mapleshade" if that makes sense. Thanks. Goodbye. The end .-. Sandynose (talk) 18:04, June 12, 2018 (UTC)Grass

I believe we actually had a discussion to include the second cause of death. I am not sure if that was implemented yet... it seems as if it has not been added into the template. That should be done soon. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 05:05, June 15, 2018 (UTC)

Beetlewhisker

Beetlewhisker does not have his AVOS sections listed on his article, and although he did die, it is still his article and is still the same character, mistake or not. Should he not have those sections listed? He still appears - and Heavystep has his appearances as well, despite dying. Appledash ^{the light of honor} 00:42, June 14, 2018 (UTC)

I think we should list them for both characters, since we kept Rippletail's appearance in TS despite it being contradicted. ~~

Unknown Residences

Hi everyone, sorry for this.

Should Jake and the other cats - not Clan cats - such as Tom and other cats who were said to walk in some sort of skies - have their own status? Perhaps a genuine "unknown residence". Appledash ^{the light of honor} 01:49, June 14, 2018 (UTC)

I would agree with it, because it's not right to ignore that they are walking in some sort of skies. even if they don't get a blank for it, they should have some sort of listing. (and maybe change needletail and such to ghost in affies too to avoid confusion.) david ^🌈 01:51, June 14, 2018 (UTC)