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Bluefur made an active choose to endanger her kits by taking them through snowstorm, knowing the high possability of them freezing to death, even if she didn't want that outcome. Does this reach the Wiki's standards of being considered responable? There might also need to be consideration for Goosefeather, considering he ordered her to do in the first place. [[User:Mellowix|Mellowix]] ([[User talk:Mellowix|talk]]) 09:53, June 17, 2020 (UTC) |
Bluefur made an active choose to endanger her kits by taking them through snowstorm, knowing the high possability of them freezing to death, even if she didn't want that outcome. Does this reach the Wiki's standards of being considered responable? There might also need to be consideration for Goosefeather, considering he ordered her to do in the first place. [[User:Mellowix|Mellowix]] ([[User talk:Mellowix|talk]]) 09:53, June 17, 2020 (UTC) |
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| − | Goosefeather didn't ''order'' her. Also, do you have proof in which Bluefur acknowledged the fact that her kits might die? Because I do not remember that being in ''Bluestar's Prophecy'' at all. Regardless, I really think these lists are being taken way too far.. including Mosskit isn't appropriate in the least. Because otherwise, we may as well blame her for Stonefur's death too, since he may not have died had Bluefur not given her kits to Oakheart. {{User:SnowedLightning/Sig2|15:01, 6/17/2020}} |
+ | Goosefeather didn't ''order'' her. Also, do you have proof in which Bluefur acknowledged the fact that her kits might die? Because I do not remember that being in ''Bluestar's Prophecy'' at all. Regardless, I really think these lists are being taken way too far.. including Mosskit isn't appropriate in the least. Because otherwise, we may as well blame her for Stonefur's death too, since he may not have died had Bluefur not given her kits to Oakheart. {{User:SnowedLightning/Sig2|15:01, 6/17/2020}} |
| − | Snowfur's death is entirely irrelevant to this debate. |
+ | Snowfur's death is entirely irrelevant to this debate. It's like saying every warrior who dies on patrol, must be put under the Kill List of the Leader/Deputy who assigned them that duty. Snowfur choose to go on patrol, she choose to rush onto the Thunderpath in a battle rage - That accident was on herself. |
Anyway, Goosefeather '''did''' tell her to take the kits out of camp to their father - It was leafbare, had to do it in secret and he offered no help, as a Medcine cat's he'd know the risks of death: |
Anyway, Goosefeather '''did''' tell her to take the kits out of camp to their father - It was leafbare, had to do it in secret and he offered no help, as a Medcine cat's he'd know the risks of death: |
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Revision as of 16:24, 17 June 2020
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Stumpytail - rogue or no?
So there's the case of Stumpytail, a kinda obscure ShadowClan cat. He stays in SC after Brokenstar gets kicked out, but also appears as one of Brokenstar's rogues in Tigerclaw's Fury. Normally, we take whatever's first, so arc 1. However. TF is also a book heavily focusing on ShadowClan, while the others he's in (FAI and FoS) are not. These two things aren't compatible - he's either a rogue or not - but in this specific case, I would argue that we should consider his staying in ShadowClan as retconned. Perhaps once true, but out of the few cats in TF, he's a prominent part of the group and appears a lot, in a book and so it's not just a one off. I bring this up because it'd need the PC override to continue to list one or the other, and the retconned material to be treated as a mistake, whereas currently it's all lumped on there. Thoughts?—spooky is that... a furry cat?!? 02:59, 3/23/2020
I think it's probably worth pointing out that Stumpytail is not the only cat whose appearances in Tigerclaw's Fury contradict what was shown in the original series. For example, Boulder is kind of the reverse case of Stumpytail -- he is shown as having stayed with ShadowClan in Tigerclaw's Fury but listed in the allegiances of Fire and Ice, Forest of Secrets, and Rising Storm as not being part of the Clan. And Clawface, despite the fact that he was supposed to have died in battle during Fire and Ice, appears throughout TF, as much as Stumpytail does. —Ivy ☆ 22:56, March 23, 2020 (UTC)
Maybe put in a continuity section with these things?
✧Winter✧ 21:21, 3/24/2020
Winter, I think the discussion is to decide which to keep in the main history and which to stick in the continuity section. =P I feel like we should go with whatever is mentioned more frequently and recently. In Boulder's case, it would be the rogue listing as a mistake, and with Stumpytail, it's him staying in ShadowClan being the mistake. Clawface's death is a bit of an iffy thing, because that was a big part of the original arc and Graystripe's character arc.. so I'm not sure exactly what would be done in that case. —Jayce(21:47, 3/24/2020)
oof my bad, im out of the loop with this site lol but yeah i agree with the most frequent standing
✧Winter✧ 13:01, 3/26/2020
Any more comments? I agree with listing him in ShadowClan as a mistake. ♥ Star red and black ♥<18:10, 6/16/2020>
Brightheart as Temp MC?
I hope this is the right place. Sorry if it wasn't! I was rereading LW and noticed that Brightheart looked after the Clan for the moons that Leafpool left to have her kits. It's somewhat similar to Sandstorm being the unoffical medicine cat of SkyClan until Echosong became a mc. Should this be considered as a rank in Brightheart's section? Juniperclaw (talk) 04:42, April 21, 2020 (UTC)
Hmm...I haven't read LW except for like the first time I did, but from what I can recall, Leafpool was gone for a while and the Clan would have to rely on Brightheart for their medicine cat needs temporarily. So I'd say probably. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 17:50, April 23, 2020 (UTC)
I'd believe it would count, so yeah, I agree. --Av Out of sight and out of mind () 18:06, April 23, 2020 (UTC)
Any other comments? I'd like a few more before we decide. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 00:40, May 11, 2020 (UTC)
Agreeing with above. ♥ Star red and black ♥<01:17, 5/11/2020>
I would say she was temporarily the medicine cat for certain, and maybe add unofficially since Leafpool was still their medicine cat? Sort of like how Alderheart more or less filled in for Puddleshine while he was recovering in The Raging Storm, but Puddleshine was still regarded as the medicine cat for ShadowClan.
—Hrafnsmál The raven's call 01:24, May 11, 2020 (UTC)
Agreeing with Thunder. ♥ Star red and black ♥<18:10, 6/16/2020>
The rebels as an affiliation
As we know in Veil of Shadows, the rebels were a group of cats who wanted to depose of the impostor. They were a fairly major group here, consisting of SkyClan, ShadowClan, and lots of other cats. Although some of the cats like Squirrelflight, Lionblaze, or Mothwing were getting shelter in ShadowClan specifically, and more or less refugees there, this group seems unique in the case that they have a name (a few names, rather) used for them and were even given their own camp. Not to mention they played a rather large part in Veil of Shadows as well. Should the rebels be considered their own group?
To preface, essentially the cats who were exiled and got refuge with ShadowClan (eg. Squirrelflight, Jayfeather, Crowfeather, Berrynose) would certainly count here. Spotfur in particular, after surviving the attack on the impostor, more or less left ThunderClan and permanently joined them. I would also argue that the ShadowClan and SkyClan cats would count since although they were part of a Clan, they took on an active role and the term "rebels" (along with the other interchangeably used demonyms) in the book is used in reference to the cats who opposed the impostor and wanted him out. So in short, the exiled cats who got refuge there, and the ShadowClan/SkyClan cats at the time who worked with them would warrant this listing.
Thoughts? —Hrafnsmál The raven's call 04:35, May 23, 2020 (UTC)
I agree. This seems like an official rank more than anything. --Av Out of sight and out of mind () 04:42, May 23, 2020 (UTC)
It should be treated like LionClan/TigerClan imo. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith4:56 Sat May 23 2020
i dont think its necessarily rank worthy, but definitely an affiliation. david 🌈 21:28, May 23, 2020 (UTC)
Agreeing with the above. I think it should be treated as an affiliation like LionClan and TigerClan but not as a rank. —Ivy ☆ 22:43, May 23, 2020 (UTC)
Agreeing with David and Ivy. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 02:11, May 24, 2020 (UTC)
Agreed with above. Definitely an affiliation, but not a rank. —Jayce(17:52, 5/24/2020)
I agree that it should be an affiliation, because nobody in the Clans ever considered the rebels as an official rank. —Huskyhawk Perception is Reality 12:37, May 25, 2020 (UTC)
Can I join? —Justaguy259
Any other comments before we implement this into the articles/infoboxes? —Jayce(03:02, 6/11/2020)
Makes sense. Being a rebel wouldn't be a rank, but just an affliction. ~Coralflame暗黒 絶望02:32, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
Mosskit as an accidental in Bluestar's Killed Victims
Bluefur made an active choose to endanger her kits by taking them through snowstorm, knowing the high possability of them freezing to death, even if she didn't want that outcome. Does this reach the Wiki's standards of being considered responable? There might also need to be consideration for Goosefeather, considering he ordered her to do in the first place. Mellowix (talk) 09:53, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
Goosefeather didn't order her. Also, do you have proof in which Bluefur acknowledged the fact that her kits might die? Because I do not remember that being in Bluestar's Prophecy at all. Regardless, I really think these lists are being taken way too far.. including Mosskit isn't appropriate in the least. Because otherwise, we may as well blame her for Stonefur's death too, since he may not have died had Bluefur not given her kits to Oakheart. —Jayce(15:01, 6/17/2020)
Snowfur's death is entirely irrelevant to this debate. It's like saying every warrior who dies on patrol, must be put under the Kill List of the Leader/Deputy who assigned them that duty. Snowfur choose to go on patrol, she choose to rush onto the Thunderpath in a battle rage - That accident was on herself.
Anyway, Goosefeather did tell her to take the kits out of camp to their father - It was leafbare, had to do it in secret and he offered no help, as a Medcine cat's he'd know the risks of death:
Goosefeather: This was not part of the prophecy. Fire must burn without bonds.
Bluefur: “The prophecy can wait. My kits need me now.”
Goosefeather: “What about your Clan?” *Short irrevlent scene with kits annoying warriors* “If Thistleclaw becomes deputy, it will be the end of ThunderClan.”
Bluefur: “My kits need me"
Goosefeather: “They’re not just your kits. They have a father who would raise them.”
Bluefur:. “What do you mean?”
Goosefeather: “I saw you with Oakheart, near Fourtrees. I do not stand in judgment, Bluefur, You never set out to betray your Clan. But these kits will drown in blood with the rest of their Clanmates unless you act. You are still the fire that will scorch a different path for ThunderClan."
Secendly, it's never been a requirment for the "Killed Victims" list, for an aknowlegement of the death risks from the PoV. Lionblaze didn't aknowledge the risks when he grabbed Russetfur beforehand. Same goes for Greystripe and Whiteclaw, and Fireheart and Whitethroat. That's why it's considered accidental, because the character didn't know beforehand they'd cause a death.
Someone making an active choose to endager kits in a blizzard, seems to be a clear-cut chase of an accidental death. Mosskit didn't die purely of hyperthemia. The Blizzard didn't get through the Nursery's walls. Bluefur made an active choose to put her in that danger of hyperthemia in the first place. Mellowix (talk) 16:16, June 17, 2020 (UTC)