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Juniperkit & Dandelionkit's descriptions
So with the Warriors website tree update, Juniperkit and Dandelionkit were given descriptions. This is the first instance of a description being given for the pair of them, save for off-hand fur descriptions. However, seeing as we take the website family tree as non-canon, what do we do for these two - and, for future/past characters that fit into the same category of having no "canon" description.
I personally wouldn't be opposed to listing them the description, but, perhaps having some sort of note alongside the source? Just so that it is clear where the information coming from (even though I guess that's what the cite would do - I guess what I'm describing is more of a disclaimer notice?). Thoughts? — max it is the real thing, (00:54, 19/6/2020)
That's actually a really great idea! Adding it along with a note would make perfect sense; I completely agree with you. This could go with other cats like Molepaw, Hopekit, and Wishkit. --Av Out of sight and out of mind () 00:58, June 19, 2020 (UTC)
It wouldn't be too bad of an idea...hm, I like it. If we ever get anything from the books, it can easily be changed. —Jayce(14:19, 6/21/2020)
My two cents is that since it was decided that the tree was not canon, then all of it should be considered non-canon. While this could lead to a discussion reevaluating the tree's canonicity, PC's current stance is to throw everything in the continuity section as non-canon. The only characters that come to mind are those who's overall legitimacy is questioned anyway, such as Jessamy and Willownose. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 11:34, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
Jessamy was mentioned in the Warriors app, and that in and of itself is canon. It being rendered defunct doesn't mean the information still isn't valid. She was mentioned in the series, we just didn't have a name for her. —Jayce(16:10, 6/23/2020)
That's kinda what I was referring to, her name that is. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 16:33, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
am I misunderstanding something here? Jessamy's name was revealed in the app, not the website... Unless that's what you mean? —Jayce(17:33, 6/23/2020)
I agree with adding it in but also having a note besides it--after all the tree still exists and we still do include the tree on the wiki, just in a separate section. ♥ Star red and black ♥<17:49, 6/23/2020>
God I'm bad at words lol. Just strictly from the books, all we have about Jessamy is an indirect mention from Sharpclaw and an indirect mention from Mapleshade/Reedshine for Willownose & co. More along the lines of "they existed." Other than that, they would probably be shoved on the minor characters page since they wouldn't have official names. The letter and app provide them names, and thus a reason for having a page. While they are canon cites, they can arguably be questionable sources (all we have is an image of said letter and screenshots of an app that only works on prior versions of IOS - if we had a canon hierarchy, I'd put them lower on the list for those reasons but that last part is just my personal opinion). To which that I was referring to their "overall legitmacy" with the names; they are canon but like an "ehhh" kind of canon if that makes any sense.
Without the existence of the tree, we wouldn't have their descriptions (or know who is Shellheart's mom), which is what this discussion is about. The descriptions remain on those pages because the other cites are questionable anyway, and I was honestly unsure what to do with those pages anyway when I went around purging everything. However, Juniperkit and Dandelionkit are strictly confirmed in the books; names, genders, age, afterlife residencies, etc. And if we added their descriptions from the family tree, it would be the first instance that I know of where we would be combining something we as a project have decided as non-canon with heavily canon sources. Unless, of course, we reevaluate the tree's canonicity.
I hope that makes sense lol. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 18:13, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
I think we should re-evaluate the tree's canocity. --Av Out of sight and out of mind () 18:21, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
I do agree with Vec and Potato about re-evaluating the tree's canocity. Even if we think about Willownose, Juniperkit, Dandelionkit, etc. Juniperclaw (talk) 18:36, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
Yes, as I've said before, I think the tree's validity should be reevaluated. Unless something shows up that leads us to think otherwise, of course. —JayI hope they remember you....ϟ 23:29, 6/27/2020
As stated above, I agree with the idea of reevaluating the tree's validity due to the apparent effort the website is making to keep it updated and reflective of something official. — max it is the real thing, (23:38, 27/6/2020)
Agreeing with above, the tree seems to be making an effort to update and fix mistakes, which was one of our doubts about the tree. ♥ Star red and black ♥<17:50, 7/01/2020>
Any more comments? Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 11:38, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
i still think its a bad idea to even include Su's missing kits on the wiki, as they're dubbed non-canonical by one of the previous authors herself.
✧Winter✧ 20:02, 7/28/2020
Vicky doesn't work on the series anymore. Just because they were Su's then, does not mean they still are. You're using defunct information that does not exist anymore. —Jayce(22:12, 7/28/2020)
So then all of Vickys cites are no longer valid if what you're saying is correct
✧Winter✧ 17:39, 7/29/2020
That is not what I'm saying. The missing kits posts do not exist anymore. Vicky deemed those non-canon, and to my knowledge, Kate had no idea what those were either. I didn't say all of Vicky's stuff was non-canon, so please don't assume that I did. The posts you're referring to no longer exist. Su's account and the posts associated with it were no longer accessible. —Jayce(18:05, 7/29/2020)
If they're listed on the official tree, technically they still need to be added, as it's still coming from the official website. ♥ Star red and black ♥<21:06, 8/02/2020>
Blackstar
I've been thinking and thought it would be worth mentioning in a discussion. Blackstar's artwork had been more updated recently (A Shadow in RiverClan and his novella art), with it showing him with black ears more frequently. And if you count the number of artwork with him being shown with black ears, it counts more than the artwork with him not shown with black ears. https://ibb.co/k8bJNrW Any thoughts if black ears should be added to his description? Juniperclaw (talk) 22:22, June 30, 2020 (UTC)
I don't remember if we cite images, but I do think it's valid to add, since we are taking official art into account. ♥ Star red and black ♥<17:50, 7/01/2020>
If we're citing his eye color to his novella cover, then it should be fine to do the same for his ears. I'd be fine with the black outline he's got in his artwork honestly. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 11:38, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
And more comments? I'd personally like a few more before we implement this as it will result in a tweak nom. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 15:39, August 7, 2020 (UTC)
Just gonna pop in here and say we did it for Spotfur, so I really don't see any logical reason why we should be ignoring this one. —Jayce(15:39, 8/07/2020)
I have one minor issue with this. Blackstar's been a relatively major character over the years and not once, aside from the images, has he been described with black on his ears. I'm not meaning to discredit the images obviously since we do cite them. Minor-ish characters I can understand since they don't appear all too often, but Blackstar's been around for a while. The black ears would seem like they would have been mentioned earlier if he was intended to have them, but obviously this seems like a recent-ish addition to his design.
I'd be fine with, say, ears rimmed with black, since his artwork also depicts him with that, and not just completely black. Not a fan of listed the ears as full on black though. Just my take lol. —Hrafnsmál The raven's call 16:03, August 7, 2020 (UTC)
I'd be fine with black rimmed ears. I think that's on a majority of his "blacked-eared" artwork anyway. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 19:02, August 7, 2020 (UTC)
Yea, mostly his recent artwork showing from his novella, battles of the Clans, and his ultimate guide artwork shows him with 'ears rimmed with black'. I would support 'the rimming ears with black' instead of just saying 'black ears'. Juniperclaw (talk) 23:14, August 7, 2020 (UTC)
Echosong ~ Gold Nomination
I feel like that article is pretty complete. ~ Fawn Happy Times()--236stars 09:25, August 1, 2020 (UTC)
While I don't believe it's against our guidelines, it is common courtesy to credit others who worked on the article prior. It is also expected that you put effort into the article as well as gold nominations are the highest awards for character articles. Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 14:18, August 1, 2020 (UTC)
Guidelines for minor character pages
Been mulling about this for a while, and I spoke with Max about this, who has been working on the minor character pages, with their input. I believe we need proper guidelines for the minor characters pages for the graphic novels. For the other books, a cat who is not named but appears is placed in the minor characters section. However, for the graphic novels, including the little comics at the end of the Super Editions, there are a lot of background characters. And most of them...aren't important, and I don't think it's worth documenting them. It also kinda hearkens back to what I think the minor characters pages were for; relevant characters that didn't have a name or significant history.
I am proposing proper guidelines for the graphic novels and comics minor character pages. I believe that a cat should only be listed if:
- They speak and it's clear who it is. (self explanatory)
- If they are apart of a small group, such as patrols that are of focus. (see File:Border.ASIR.png and File:Battle.ASIR.png)
- If they perform a somewhat relevant action or contribute to the plot. (Heavystep before he was confirmed in A Shadow in RiverClan or Sol's siblings and father)
- If 50% or more of their body is shown clearly. (not just a head or tail or paw)
An example of this is the minor characters page for A Shadow in RiverClan that I wrote. Each cat listed either speaks or is somewhat relevant.
Numerous background ThunderClan cats? Nope. These dudes? Nope.
Thoughts? Vec I am Iron Man! 👾 23:02, August 1, 2020 (UTC)
I completely agree with this proposal. Typically, outside of the graphic novels, minor characters aren't even mentioned at all unless they fit the criteria you've mentioned. It doesn't add any value to the page to list every single cat who is part of a crowd and does nothing else. In fact, I think it actually would detract from the value of the page because then the information about the important unnamed characters (e.g., Heavystep in ASIR) would be buried in a bunch of listings for insignificant ones. —Ivy ☆ 15:42, August 2, 2020 (UTC)
Ditto to what Ivy said above. I've always assumed that if we see the description of a cat, but not their name, and we can reasonably deduce who it is, then that appearance can be added to the respective character pages. Obviously their name isn't said at all, but in all honesty, who else could it be? I remember in what I believe what was Night Whispers, Ivypaw sees a tortoiseshell queen in the ShadowClan camp. The only tortie queen at the time (and in the allegiances) was Ivytail. Her name was never said, but who else could it be? She was the only tortoiseshell queen it could be. If we do see a minor character and it isn't totally clear who it is, we could use simple deductive reasoning to figure out who it is.
Otherwise agreed. I don't think we need to list every cat that appears once and then never again. —Hrafnsmál The raven's call 18:28, August 2, 2020 (UTC)
Concurring with above. We can always use logic and process of elimination to determine who is who if it ever comes down to that. --Av Out of sight and out of mind () 18:31, August 2, 2020 (UTC)
I agree, using logic to deduce some characters, and then listing the rest that we are not very sure of sounds like a plan. Also cuts down on the dozens of characters that would otherwise be listed. ♥ Star red and black ♥<21:06, 8/02/2020>
Please....there are so many minor characters that could definitely be removed from the page, because they aren't even minor. They're just filler characters meant to give the background something nice. I've been wanting to purge this and did start some of them.. but having it officially written down somewhere would be wonderful. Also, some of the lower-quality "headshots" bring down the quality of the page in general and I'm not a huge fan of that. —Jayce(15:38, 8/07/2020)
Does Hollyleaf in the tunnels count as self-exile?
With the new exile page including cases like Tree and Dovewing choose to exile themselves, does Hollyleaf's situation count? Mellowix (talk) 15:34, August 13, 2020 (UTC)
self-exile is the same thing as just leaving. dovewing was exiled by tigerheartstar/bramblestar(ashfur), they told her to temporarily leave, and she agreed. same with tree. hollyleaf decided to leave on her own, nobody told her to. —Cypressduskツ(text) 16:02, August 13, 2020 (UTC)